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RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
I'm attempting to post on our association website, reasons that owners should pay their assessements in a positive way. I don't want to bring up late fees, collection notices, liens, etc. I was thinking of expounding on the good each and every assessment does for the association as a whole. I did a search on these forums for "Importance of Paying Assessments" and didn't really find anything helpful. Thus, this thread...I'll start by listing a few reasons...

1. Assessments pay for maintaining and upkeep of the association's physical assets which in turn helps maintain and possibly improve every owner's property value.

2. Proper budgeting of assessment fees allows the ability to build a reserve fund to pay for capital replacement. This can prevent an association from becoming unkept, struturally unsound, and undesireable.

3. Paying assessments can mean you do not have to provide your own landscape maintenance or snow removal. It can assure owners that all properties/units will be maintained to the same level.

4. Paying assessments can fund a professional management company to facilitate and guide the association.

5. Assessments can fund beautification of the common elements. It can help make your home inviting for you and guests.

Please help me in posting the Top 10 (or more) Reasons to Pay Assessments.

Thanks
Rick
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
Those all sound nice. At one time people were questioning where EXACTLY their money was going. So I broke it all down for everyone.

I started with their monthly (personal) dollar amount fee, then listed where every dollar was being spent.

X $ for Pest Control
X $ for Lawn Maintenance
X $ for Pool Care
X $ for Management Fees

Etc.
LynetteB (Texas)
Posts: 141
Posted:
Here is a statement we have:
Assessments are important to the financial ability of the Association to maintain common areas, and to pay for other necessary operations of the Association, all of which helps maintain property values and the quality of the community.

I found this looking up how to sell a dues increase, but you could possibly use the info to word something that would work for your purpose.
Look up this stuff as your state probably has it's own requirements. I found some of this on the CAN website which has a link on the left:
1.Too many delinquent dues could effect your ability to obtain certain types of insurance or at least will make the cost of it more expensive.
2. Some State laws requires associations to adequately budget so as to avoid special assessments unless waived in writing by a majority of residents. One problem with "taking the waiver" is that the association is then declaring that they are underfunded leading to at least three other issues:
a. Banks are becoming more particular about loans in this climate. Not only are they more stringent on the buyer's credit, but they're becoming more stringent on associations as well. There are banks out there that will not underwrite a loan to a community that is underfunded because they fear that if a huge assessment comes due the buyer will walk sticking the bank with the bill.

b. FHA has recently tightened their rules too and they are starting to ask for reserve information more than they used to.

c. On the newest Ohio residential property disclosure form, sellers are required to disclose if they have reason to believe that a special assessment is possible. If an association is expressly underfunded, then an assessment is a possibility and must be disclosed to prospective buyers. That's going to turn buyers away. What happens if the seller doesn't disclose and an assessment hits a few years later that the reserve study warned about? Look out seller because the buyer might now have a cause for a civil suit against you.

Those points are aimed squarely at the "I'm going to sell before an assessment hits" crowd.

Hope this helps you come up with something.
MaureenM4 (Washington)
Posts: 20
Posted:
Paying assessments provides for association social activites which bring the community together.
Paying assessments pays for your roads, street lights, and entrances (such as that nice signage you can see from the street).
Pays for security personnel or gated access to your condo or home.
Allows for prudent reserves which avoids the need for special assessment without the burden of getting a bank loan for imporvements.

-Maureen
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
You prevent your credit rating from taking a huge hit when the association has to file liens on your property, file a lawsuit against you and garnish your wages.

You also prevent three months of non-payment of perhaps a few hundred dollars from erupting into a bill of several thousand dollars - which will now include late fees and legal fees the Association incurs to - file liens on your property, file a lawsuit against you and garnish your wages

You help avoid special assessments which can be several thousands of dollars a pop and must be paid in addition to monthly, annual or quarterly fees.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MichaelK11 (Texas)
Posts: 432
Posted:
Are you speaking of Annual Assessments (dues) or penalty assessments (fines)?

Either way, when a Member's assessments are paid current, then they can vote (and their vote will be counted) in HOA elections and other matters.
JanM7 (Missouri)
Posts: 6
Posted:
In regards to reasons to pay assessments. I would also research county/state statutes in regards to homeowner association fees and membership in a HOA. In our area, the city/county have statutes requiring our subdivision to have street lights and pay for them. They require us to have storm water detention ponds and maintain them. If the By Laws/Indentures have been recorded with the county, the residents are bound by law to be a memeber and follow the rules ( including fees if they are in the By Laws/ Indentures. Our By Laws require maintenance of signs and common areas as well as having liability insurance. Unfortunately, the county/city do not assist in enforcing a HOA By Laws. But you can cite that they exist. If the city/county must step in to assist with maintenace, the costs will be owed by individual residents and could become quite expensive.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
I know it's outdated and old fashioned...

You pay assessments because you agreed to, by law, and signed a contract to that effect, without anyone holding a gun to your head. To do less (unless the other side violated their side of the contract) would make you a cheat, welch, liar and morally impaired person, a horrible role model for today's youth. You would be some of that which is wrong with America today.
BonnieE (Illinois)
Posts: 338
Posted:
Hi Rick,

Did you complete your "top 10 reasons..."? I would be interested in seeing it.

BTW, (I am also in IL) - I was looking at my HOA's property mgmt. website, reading the summer newsletter. I am guessing we may have the same PM company - by any chance are you the Rick W.... mentioned in the article on pg. 8?

If you are, congrats on a job very well done!

And, I would be interested in following up with you regarding our shared PM company as my BOD is having some issues (maybe to the extent of changing), and am interested in your thoughts about the PM company.

Thanks,
Bonnie
RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BonnieE on 07/16/2010 11:10 AM
Hi Rick,

Did you complete your "top 10 reasons..."? I would be interested in seeing it.

BTW, (I am also in IL) - I was looking at my HOA's property mgmt. website, reading the summer newsletter. I am guessing we may have the same PM company - by any chance are you the Rick W.... mentioned in the article on pg. 8?

If you are, congrats on a job very well done!

And, I would be interested in following up with you regarding our shared PM company as my BOD is having some issues (maybe to the extent of changing), and am interested in your thoughts about the PM company.

Thanks,
Bonnie

Hi Bonnie,

I never really came up with a top 10 list...I did post the following in our newsletter..

Reasons To Pay Monthly Assessments
Did you know that approximately two thirds of your monthly
assessment funds the operating and maintenance costs of our
association? Without everyone's payments we could not maintain
and improve the value of our complex.
Did you know that the streets of our association are owned and
maintained by the association? Your monthly assessment
contributes to the upkeep of our streets and also contributes to the
reserve account to fund repair and replacement of the streets and
curbs.
Did you know your assessments pay for the painting of our
buildings? One half of our complex was painted last summer/fall and
the other half will be painted in the spring of 2010.
Did you know that banks are now looking at the association
financials prior to approving mortgages? Banks now want to be
assured that associations are not only budgeting for capital
expenditures, but also check to see how many delinquencies there
are in the association. This can affect the value of our homes.
Did you know your assessments pay for the landscape maintenance
and beautifucation of our complex? This include the common areas
as well as the landscaping immediately adjacent to your unit.
Did you know your assessments helps to pay for the maintenance of
our ponds? The board of directors is working on establishing an
ongoing program for the ponds to beautify the shoreline with prairie
type plants and flowers.

You're right, we do have the same property management company and thanks for the compliment

I'd be more than happy to talk with you regarding management companies...
[email protected]

Rick
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Rick,

Good info!

You stated:

"Did you know that banks are now looking at the association
financials prior to approving mortgages? Banks now want to be
assured that associations are not only budgeting for capital
expenditures, but also check to see how many delinquencies there
are in the association. This can affect the value of our homes."

As a matter of clarification. . .

That may only apply to FHA mortgages for condos. The FHA has come out with requirements a condo must meet to qualify for FHA financing. As far as I know these requirements do not apply to single family homes. Also, I don't know that there are any such qualifications to meet for conventional mortgages. However I have heard that people with even the best credit ratings are being denied a mortgage or other financing. That's bad enough without having the HOA resp. for your mortgage being denied!
StanleyO (Maryland)
Posts: 1
Posted:
Your post is dated but I was interested if you got your ten reasons. Here is my first try but it is more harsh and pits HOA fees vs Mortgage payments since we have had a few homeowners keep up their mortgage payment but not the HOA fees:
Top Ten Reasons to pay HOA Fees before your Mortgage:
1. Pay your fair share for the operation and maintenance of the community to keep it an attractive, comfortable and enjoyable place to live.
2. HOA delinquency amount will multiply rapidly with penalties, collection fees, and legal fees.
3. HOA can foreclose on you, much faster, easier, and with less paperwork than a Mortgage company.
4. HOA can evict you after they foreclose and take title to rent or sell your home.
5. If a willing buyer shows up they get reimbursed the delinquent amount and you are out of a home.
6. HOA delinquency foreclosures are not as tightly regulated, monitored and controlled as Mortgages so Mortgage foreclosures can take years, HOA foreclosures take months.
7. Not paying your HOA Fees is the #1 Killer of Short Sales and Closing a sale, or getting a bank to agree on a short sale with the HOA Lien on the title.
8. With a HOA foreclosure sale the “Due On Sale” provision you signed with your mortgage company kicks in immediately and you become responsible for balloon payment of balance.
9. Your credit rating takes a huge hit when the HOA file liens on your property, file a lawsuit against you and garnish your wages.
10. If you do not pay HOA Fees you are taking a free ride on your friends and neighbors in the community.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Rick

While I did not read all responses, I suggest the following tone/differences in wording:

1. Assessments pay for maintaining and upkeep of the association's physical assets which in turn helps maintain and possibly improve every owner's property value.

1a. replace possibly with will or has proven

2. Proper budgeting of assessment fees allows the ability to build a reserve fund to pay for capital replacement. This can prevent an association from becoming unkept, struturally unsound, and undesireable.

2a. Proper budgeting of increased fees will allow your association to pay/plan for future capital replacements when needed versus face future economic crisis.

3. Paying assessments can mean you do not have to provide your own landscape maintenance or snow removal. It can assure owners that all properties/units will be maintained to the same level.

3a. replace can mean with does mean or contines to mean

4. Paying assessments can fund a professional management company to facilitate and guide the association.

4a. replace can with will or continues to

5. Assessments can fund beautification of the common elements. It can help make your home inviting for you and guests.

5a. replaces can fund with will fund.

Can is a might happens versus will happen. Sell the positive.

Hope this helps.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
My stand by is : A HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR it's members.

If you want to keep your HOA common area maintained, rules enforces, and HOA operational then pay your fair share. It isn't like the assessment collected aren't set up to be a fair share. No one has to pay more if everyone pays the same...

The Board must always keep this concept in mind: The money in the HOA's budget is NOT their money. They were chosen from the general pool of owners to manage what is in it on their behalf. If the will of the people is to paint the roads "red", then the BOD finds away with the money to make it so. It is NOT the board deciding they want "red" roads...something that many boards or HOA members don't understand...

Former HOA President
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:

Say, Rick, does your HOA pay for insurance for your common areas, for liability, etc?

IMO, the words "protect," "maintain" and "enhance" are the primary goals of assessments' functions and Boards' obligations.

With respects to "protect," maybe, "timely payment of dues protects us from strict demands by lenders when we wish to resell or refi our homes," or some such. In other words, you can put a positive spin on potential negative consequences on too large a % of non-payment

I also think it's a good thing to focus on what assessments DO rather than what they "can" do (which may have been John 46's point). So in the below, consider changing to:

Assessments fund enhancement of our common elements. They make your home inviting to you and your guests.

I like your positive approach.

I also like the examples that one poster gave of current improvement projects
PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708
Posted:
There's only one reason... because you're obliged to.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Eyes glazing over.
RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By StanleyO on 05/24/2012 4:07 PM
Your post is dated but I was interested if you got your ten reasons. Here is my first try but it is more harsh and pits HOA fees vs Mortgage payments since we have had a few homeowners keep up their mortgage payment but not the HOA fees:
Top Ten Reasons to pay HOA Fees before your Mortgage:
1. Pay your fair share for the operation and maintenance of the community to keep it an attractive, comfortable and enjoyable place to live.
2. HOA delinquency amount will multiply rapidly with penalties, collection fees, and legal fees.
3. HOA can foreclose on you, much faster, easier, and with less paperwork than a Mortgage company.
4. HOA can evict you after they foreclose and take title to rent or sell your home.
5. If a willing buyer shows up they get reimbursed the delinquent amount and you are out of a home.
6. HOA delinquency foreclosures are not as tightly regulated, monitored and controlled as Mortgages so Mortgage foreclosures can take years, HOA foreclosures take months.
7. Not paying your HOA Fees is the #1 Killer of Short Sales and Closing a sale, or getting a bank to agree on a short sale with the HOA Lien on the title.
8. With a HOA foreclosure sale the “Due On Sale” provision you signed with your mortgage company kicks in immediately and you become responsible for balloon payment of balance.
9. Your credit rating takes a huge hit when the HOA file liens on your property, file a lawsuit against you and garnish your wages.
10. If you do not pay HOA Fees you are taking a free ride on your friends and neighbors in the community.

Wow, this post is a bit dated. Thanks for posting your top 10. There still is reason to compile such a list. I can understand how you top ten is slightly slanted towards HOA fees and Mortgage payments. Times have changed significantly since I first posted.
RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/24/2012 5:04 PM
Rick

While I did not read all responses, I suggest the following tone/differences in wording:

1. Assessments pay for maintaining and upkeep of the association's physical assets which in turn helps maintain and possibly improve every owner's property value.

1a. replace possibly with will or has proven

2. Proper budgeting of assessment fees allows the ability to build a reserve fund to pay for capital replacement. This can prevent an association from becoming unkept, struturally unsound, and undesireable.

2a. Proper budgeting of increased fees will allow your association to pay/plan for future capital replacements when needed versus face future economic crisis.

3. Paying assessments can mean you do not have to provide your own landscape maintenance or snow removal. It can assure owners that all properties/units will be maintained to the same level.

3a. replace can mean with does mean or contines to mean

4. Paying assessments can fund a professional management company to facilitate and guide the association.

4a. replace can with will or continues to

5. Assessments can fund beautification of the common elements. It can help make your home inviting for you and guests.

5a. replaces can fund with will fund.

Can is a might happens versus will happen. Sell the positive.

Hope this helps.


John,
Excellent, excellent suggestions. I completely agree with your suggestions. I do think I posted top ten reasons on our HOA website back in 2010. Given the new interest in this list, I think it's more than appropriate to post a revised version on our HOA website.
Thanks
Rick
RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/24/2012 8:08 PM
My stand by is : A HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR it's members.

If you want to keep your HOA common area maintained, rules enforces, and HOA operational then pay your fair share. It isn't like the assessment collected aren't set up to be a fair share. No one has to pay more if everyone pays the same...

The Board must always keep this concept in mind: The money in the HOA's budget is NOT their money. They were chosen from the general pool of owners to manage what is in it on their behalf. If the will of the people is to paint the roads "red", then the BOD finds away with the money to make it so. It is NOT the board deciding they want "red" roads...something that many boards or HOA members don't understand...

Melissa,

"A HOA is ONLY funded by it's members FOR it's members." Excellent, I like this and it should be the first statement to any Top Ten Reasons for paying Assessments.

I do agree that any Board is to manage, but I also feel part of managing is deciding what is in the best long term interest of the association.

Thanks
Rick
RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolR11 on 05/25/2012 12:40 PM

Say, Rick, does your HOA pay for insurance for your common areas, for liability, etc?

IMO, the words "protect," "maintain" and "enhance" are the primary goals of assessments' functions and Boards' obligations.

With respects to "protect," maybe, "timely payment of dues protects us from strict demands by lenders when we wish to resell or refi our homes," or some such. In other words, you can put a positive spin on potential negative consequences on too large a % of non-payment

I also think it's a good thing to focus on what assessments DO rather than what they "can" do (which may have been John 46's point). So in the below, consider changing to:

Assessments fund enhancement of our common elements. They make your home inviting to you and your guests.

I like your positive approach.

I also like the examples that one poster gave of current improvement projects

Carol,

I like the "protect, maintain, and enhance." It provides a good overview. Yes, you are correct, 2 years ago when I posted the initial list, the words I chose definitely needed editing

Thanks
Rick
RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PeterD3 on 05/25/2012 4:19 PM
There's only one reason... because you're obliged to.

How true, yet, some owners can benefit from an explanation fo what they are paying for, some insight that they might not realize....
RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DJ1 on 05/26/2012 9:28 AM
Eyes glazing over.

Why is that DJ1?
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Hi Rick,

I hadn't noticed that your preliminary list was from '10, and still think it's a good idea.

(I don't get the purpose of DJ1's remark either.)
JayP3 (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RickW on 05/27/2012 2:58 PM
Posted By PeterD3 on 05/25/2012 4:19 PM
There's only one reason... because you're obliged to.


How true, yet, some owners can benefit from an explanation fo what they are paying for, some insight that they might not realize....

You have to pay so what's the point of having reasons?

How about top ten things your BoD SHOULD DO do with your assessments.
RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JayP3 on 05/27/2012 5:08 PM
Posted By RickW on 05/27/2012 2:58 PM
Posted By PeterD3 on 05/25/2012 4:19 PM
There's only one reason... because you're obliged to.


How true, yet, some owners can benefit from an explanation fo what they are paying for, some insight that they might not realize....


You have to pay so what's the point of having reasons?

How about top ten things your BoD SHOULD DO do with your assessments.

JayP3,

The point is not to have reasons, the point of the list was to make owners aware of why paying their assessment is important as well as describing what the assessments do pay for.

You really should begin a new topic, I agree there should be a top ten things your BOD should do with your assessments. It would be interesting to have a comparison from both sides.

Rick
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Rick

Not meaning to be critical but what do you mean by "both sides"?

Thanks

RickW (Illinois)
Posts: 169
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/27/2012 6:41 PM
Rick

Not meaning to be critical but what do you mean by "both sides"?

Thanks


John,

My initial post was this, "I'm attempting to post on our association website, reasons that owners should pay their assessements in a positive way. I don't want to bring up late fees, collection notices, liens, etc. I was thinking of expounding on the good each and every assessment does for the association as a whole. I did a search on these forums for "Importance of Paying Assessments" and didn't really find anything helpful. Thus, this thread...I'll start by listing a few reasons...

I completely agree with JayP3 that owners must pay there assessments. However, I feel an informed homeowner is better apt to pay assessments. Thus, I was trying to come up with a list of where monthly assessments go, what they pay for, and was hoping to do so in a positive manner.

On the 'other' side, the BOD has obligations. Perhaps a second list of what the BOD should use assessments for might be different from the reasons an owner should pay their assessments. Making a list from this viewpoint seemed not necessarily 'opposite' but certainly different from the intent of my first post. Not in a negative way at all...just different.

I hope I didn't come across in a negative manner.
Rick
JayP3 (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:
'... Thus, I was trying to come up with a list of where monthly assessments go, what they pay for, and was hoping to do so in a positive manner.'

We have that too it's called a budget.

I'm not poo pooing on your rose colored glasses attempt to inform homeowners per se, but it seems a little condescending.

Fulfill your contractual obligation to the HOA and pay your dues or suffer the consequences.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Rick

I was not criticizing but the both sides comment made me think what some out here always say about associations. There is not a we/them. It is our association.

I think your idea to present/sell what one gets from being part of the assocition and encourage them to keep up in their dues is a good idea.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I appreciated this post and it's intent. People often need reminded of their HOA and it's purpose. We tend to get lost in the "They and Them" of our HOA. I had a very hard time (still do) explaining to people why I would live in a HOA. The response is ALWAYS "I wouldn't live in a place where people can tell me what to do". Posting these reasons show WHY this is the way that it is. Paying as a group gets group benefits.

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Mel

I bought into my frist 4 associations primarily because of cost, location, and condition. The units (apartment style condo first, then the next two were townhouses, then a standalone private house) afforded me a location, a life style, and amenities I would have been economically stretched to afford on my own. Also 3 of the 4 were new, and I like new. Plus two were located on golf courses I was a member of so relly convenient.

Along the way I learned things:

1. I saw like areas deteriorate due to lack of neighborhood control. Whlie control can be a pain it can also be used to maintain and/or increase the aesthetcs/value.

2. Amenities cost money.

3. What the the cost of private roads/septic systems, etc. can be

4. It is critical that Capital Reserve be properly planned and financed.

5. About BOD elections, recalls, quorums, etc. and how one can control things.

Learning/knowing all these things, in 2011 I eagerly bought a new standalone home in my 5th association. Granted I knew what to look for.......LOL

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RickW on 05/27/2012 2:58 PM
Posted By DJ1 on 05/26/2012 9:28 AM
Eyes glazing over.


Why is that DJ1?

That would be the reaction from many members. You know, the ones who aren't interested in participating, contributing etc. And for the ones who DO care, they likely already know why they should pay dues.
PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708
Posted:
Unless the intent was a website posting of this information I would be upset that my money was used to communicate these 'reasons' as well.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
An upbeat list like Rick's could go in the Newsletter where he placed his. Another good place might be a Welcome packet. Neither of these cost much $ to speak of.

I can see only good coming from such a list and I agree with Rick that homeowners who understand the reasons that their HOA's need dues will be more satisfied with their HOA's. Communication matters!

Sure they can read the annual budget but in some HOA's, like ours, there are many annual contracts so the budget is cumbersome. In addition, our summary of funds in reserves that also goes to Owners annually is very complicated. I strongly doubt that more than 5-10% of owners here read either.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DJ1 on 05/28/2012 1:05 PM
Posted By RickW on 05/27/2012 2:58 PM
Posted By DJ1 on 05/26/2012 9:28 AM
Eyes glazing over.


Why is that DJ1?


That would be the reaction from many members. You know, the ones who aren't interested in participating, contributing etc. And for the ones who DO care, they likely already know why they should pay dues.

While I understand the no, not once again, boring questions, etc., at least let us be polite/professional and ignore it, suggest a search it, whatever versus roll our eyes at it, etc..

Versus an impolite, smarter then you, go have sex with yourself answer.....
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/28/2012 6:52 PM
Posted By DJ1 on 05/28/2012 1:05 PM
Posted By RickW on 05/27/2012 2:58 PM
Posted By DJ1 on 05/26/2012 9:28 AM
Eyes glazing over.


Why is that DJ1?


That would be the reaction from many members. You know, the ones who aren't interested in participating, contributing etc. And for the ones who DO care, they likely already know why they should pay dues.


While I understand the no, not once again, boring questions, etc., at least let us be polite/professional and ignore it, suggest a search it, whatever versus roll our eyes at it, etc..

Versus an impolite, smarter then you, go have sex with yourself answer.....

John, I wasn't conveying MY response. I was trying to convey the reaction I suspect alot of the members would have.

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