ScotJ (Arizona)
Posts: 19
Posts: 19
Posted:
Do non-Board members have any voting rights to decide an issue at a special meeting, other than removal of a director and replacement of that director?
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Special Meeting-voting rights
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DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Scot,
What kind of issue? Without this, we cannot give any opinions.
ScotJ (Arizona)
Posts: 19
Posts: 19
Posted:
Lower monthly assessment as an example.
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
Scot,
I thought special meetings were held for all owners. If so, why would they not have a vote?
I thought special meetings were held for all owners. If so, why would they not have a vote?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Scot,
Is this a special meeting of the members or of the board? Only board members can vote at board meetings and the members can only vote at meetings of the members. Most often the only meeting of the members is the annual meeting at which time elections take place and possibly ratification of the budget (depending upon the community docs). However, if there is a recall then a special meeting of the members is called to vote on the recall issue. Also a special meeting of the members can be called if their vote is required on a particular issue of if the board wants to gain input from the members on a particular project or issue. BTW, the members do not vote on changing the assessment unless that is specified in the community docs. In most instances this is something the board can decide on their own, but they must abide by state law. If you live in a planned community, state law says (Ref ARS 33-1803): "Unless limitations in the community documents would result in a lower limit for the assessment, the assn shall not impose a regular assessment tat is ore than 20% greater than the immediately preceding fiscal year's assessment w/o the approval of the majority of the members of the assn." If you live in a condo assn, there is no state imposed limitation on the increase unless specified in your community docs. (Ref ARS 33-1255)
Is this a special meeting of the members or of the board? Only board members can vote at board meetings and the members can only vote at meetings of the members. Most often the only meeting of the members is the annual meeting at which time elections take place and possibly ratification of the budget (depending upon the community docs). However, if there is a recall then a special meeting of the members is called to vote on the recall issue. Also a special meeting of the members can be called if their vote is required on a particular issue of if the board wants to gain input from the members on a particular project or issue. BTW, the members do not vote on changing the assessment unless that is specified in the community docs. In most instances this is something the board can decide on their own, but they must abide by state law. If you live in a planned community, state law says (Ref ARS 33-1803): "Unless limitations in the community documents would result in a lower limit for the assessment, the assn shall not impose a regular assessment tat is ore than 20% greater than the immediately preceding fiscal year's assessment w/o the approval of the majority of the members of the assn." If you live in a condo assn, there is no state imposed limitation on the increase unless specified in your community docs. (Ref ARS 33-1255)
ScotJ (Arizona)
Posts: 19
Posts: 19
Posted:
Thanks Mary,
Special meetings are covered under Article III, Meetings of Members and again under Article IV, Board of Directors in our bylaws. Does the BOD have the final say in both instances?
Special meetings are covered under Article III, Meetings of Members and again under Article IV, Board of Directors in our bylaws. Does the BOD have the final say in both instances?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Scot,
Are you referring to the vote outcome or as to whether or not a special meeting should be held?
1) as to the vote outcome: the board would have final say only for a vote of the board.
2) as to whether or not to hold a special meeting: again, definitely if it's a special meeting of the board. Check your bylaws about special meetings of the members. Usually a special meeting can be called by the board Pres, a majority of the board members or a certain % of the members making a request of the board.
Hope this answers your question!
Are you referring to the vote outcome or as to whether or not a special meeting should be held?
1) as to the vote outcome: the board would have final say only for a vote of the board.
2) as to whether or not to hold a special meeting: again, definitely if it's a special meeting of the board. Check your bylaws about special meetings of the members. Usually a special meeting can be called by the board Pres, a majority of the board members or a certain % of the members making a request of the board.
Hope this answers your question!
ScotJ (Arizona)
Posts: 19
Posts: 19
Posted:
Example: At a BOD meeting, the board votes to raise the monthly assessment to $120 from $110. After this meeting, a resident secures the proper number of signatures via petition to call for a special meeting to reduce the fee back down. At the special meeting 80% of residents want the fee lowered. Are they allowed to vote to decide the matter or can the board leave the higher fee in place?
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posts: 967
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ScotJ on 01/22/2009 9:42 AM
Example: At a BOD meeting, the board votes to raise the monthly assessment to $120 from $110. After this meeting, a resident secures the proper number of signatures via petition to call for a special meeting to reduce the fee back down. At the special meeting 80% of residents want the fee lowered. Are they allowed to vote to decide the matter or can the board leave the higher fee in place?
Example: At a BOD meeting, the board votes to raise the monthly assessment to $120 from $110. After this meeting, a resident secures the proper number of signatures via petition to call for a special meeting to reduce the fee back down. At the special meeting 80% of residents want the fee lowered. Are they allowed to vote to decide the matter or can the board leave the higher fee in place?
Under our docs, the only way this would work would be for a special meeting to be called, an Amendment to the ByLaws proposed (broad or narrow), and then passed by a majority of Membership.
Other than that, the BOD has all the cards when it comes to finances. As it should.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Scot,
Did the Board present the membership with a budget? According to many documents, the Board prepares a budget and then after giving the members a change to review it, the Board adpots that Budget. Unless your governing documents say otherwise, the Budget is normaly a Board function to prepare and vote on.
Is the $120 an annual fee? That my friend is an unbelievably low amount for any association unless you have absolutely no association expenses, which would be most unusual.
ScotJ (Arizona)
Posts: 19
Posts: 19
Posted:
Thanks John and Donna,
This was a hypothetical example.
This was a hypothetical example.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Scot -
Usually "Special Meetings" require a Notice to the Membership AND the purpose of the meeting is stated in the Notice. So your Notice should have read something like:
Special Meeting to be held (date) for the purpose of voting on the following motion:
(Motion stated)
There, the motion can be voted on by the Members (including the Board, who are Members.)
Some things come to mind, however:
1) The group wanted to lower the assessment. Does the Membership have that power?
2) Were all proper procedures followed calling for a conductin this vote?
Usually "Special Meetings" require a Notice to the Membership AND the purpose of the meeting is stated in the Notice. So your Notice should have read something like:
Special Meeting to be held (date) for the purpose of voting on the following motion:
(Motion stated)
There, the motion can be voted on by the Members (including the Board, who are Members.)
Some things come to mind, however:
1) The group wanted to lower the assessment. Does the Membership have that power?
2) Were all proper procedures followed calling for a conductin this vote?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ScotJ on 01/22/2009 9:42 AM
Example: At a BOD meeting, the board votes to raise the monthly assessment to $120 from $110. After this meeting, a resident secures the proper number of signatures via petition to call for a special meeting to reduce the fee back down. At the special meeting 80% of residents want the fee lowered. Are they allowed to vote to decide the matter or can the board leave the higher fee in place?
Example: At a BOD meeting, the board votes to raise the monthly assessment to $120 from $110. After this meeting, a resident secures the proper number of signatures via petition to call for a special meeting to reduce the fee back down. At the special meeting 80% of residents want the fee lowered. Are they allowed to vote to decide the matter or can the board leave the higher fee in place?
Scot,
I know you stated this was a hypothetical case, but would like to comment.
My first question would be, did the board call the special meeting? If not, that, in itself may be a violation of the bylaws. In many HOAs a special meeting may be called by the Pres, by a majority of the board or by a certain % of the membership petitioning the board. In most instances the members alone do not have the authority to call a special meeting. You may want to take a look at the open meeting law statute which outlines the requirements for a special meeting. This is one of the most important HOAs laws; every board member should be aware of the provisions contained in it. Actually all members should be aware of this law too. Condos - ARS 33-1248; planned communities - ARS 33-1804
If your community documents state the members must approve an increase in assessments, then a vote of the members would be required. However, in most instances the board alone can make this decision. If you live in a planned community in AZ, unless the community documents call for a lower amount, the members must vote to approve an increase that is 20% over the last assessment. . ." (Ref ARS33-1803) If you are in a condo assn, if there is a limit to the amount of the increase, it would be so stated in your community documents.
ScotJ (Arizona)
Posts: 19
Posts: 19
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 01/22/2009 12:57 PM
Posted By ScotJ on 01/22/2009 9:42 AM
Example: At a BOD meeting, the board votes to raise the monthly assessment to $120 from $110. After this meeting, a resident secures the proper number of signatures via petition to call for a special meeting to reduce the fee back down. At the special meeting 80% of residents want the fee lowered. Are they allowed to vote to decide the matter or can the board leave the higher fee in place?
Example: At a BOD meeting, the board votes to raise the monthly assessment to $120 from $110. After this meeting, a resident secures the proper number of signatures via petition to call for a special meeting to reduce the fee back down. At the special meeting 80% of residents want the fee lowered. Are they allowed to vote to decide the matter or can the board leave the higher fee in place?
Scot,
I know you stated this was a hypothetical case, but would like to comment.
My first question would be, did the board call the special meeting? If not, that, in itself may be a violation of the bylaws. In many HOAs a special meeting may be called by the Pres, by a majority of the board or by a certain % of the membership petitioning the board. In most instances the members alone do not have the authority to call a special meeting. You may want to take a look at the open meeting law statute which outlines the requirements for a special meeting. This is one of the most important HOAs laws; every board member should be aware of the provisions contained in it. Actually all members should be aware of this law too. Condos - ARS 33-1248; planned communities - ARS 33-1804
If your community documents state the members must approve an increase in assessments, then a vote of the members would be required. However, in most instances the board alone can make this decision. If you live in a planned community in AZ, unless the community documents call for a lower amount, the members must vote to approve an increase that is 20% over the last assessment. . ." (Ref ARS33-1803) If you are in a condo assn, if there is a limit to the amount of the increase, it would be so stated in your community documents.
Hi Mary,
Yes, in my example the board would have to call the special meeting after receiving the petition. I also used ARS33-1804 for reference. I was just curious under what circumstances at a special meeting, members have a right to vote, other than removal of a board member. Sounds like amending the bylaws might be the only other circumstance.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Scot,
Electing board members, recalling a board member and amending the CCRs and any other gov docs that calls for a vote of the members, ratification of the budget and to approve an expenditure over a certain dollar amount are about the only issues I can think of. Of course your community documents will spell this all out.
BTW, where are you located in AZ? I'm in Glendale at Arrowhead Ranch.
Electing board members, recalling a board member and amending the CCRs and any other gov docs that calls for a vote of the members, ratification of the budget and to approve an expenditure over a certain dollar amount are about the only issues I can think of. Of course your community documents will spell this all out.
BTW, where are you located in AZ? I'm in Glendale at Arrowhead Ranch.
SamJ1 (Nevada)
Posts: 11
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ScotJ on 01/21/2009 1:41 PM
Do non-Board members have any voting rights to decide an issue at a special meeting, other than removal of a director and replacement of that director?
Do non-Board members have any voting rights to decide an issue at a special meeting, other than removal of a director and replacement of that director?
Hi! Newbie here........
But when I saw this post.........couldn't resist ....
I have been trying to give our Community "Informational Voting Rights" via our Website and Password Protected Message Board for almost three years now.
In this, the 21st Century, where even first graders are learning to use a computer, isn't it time to use the internet in ALL of its possibilities?
Check out my site:
http://www.hendersonriverlanding.com/index.html
or just type: river1234.com in your Address Bar..........then go to our Message Board:
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/samn3s/vpost?id=3231795
Your thoughts?...........Sam
ScotJ (Arizona)
Posts: 19
Posts: 19
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 01/23/2009 6:19 AM
Scot,
Electing board members, recalling a board member and amending the CCRs and any other gov docs that calls for a vote of the members, ratification of the budget and to approve an expenditure over a certain dollar amount are about the only issues I can think of. Of course your community documents will spell this all out.
BTW, where are you located in AZ? I'm in Glendale at Arrowhead Ranch.
Scot,
Electing board members, recalling a board member and amending the CCRs and any other gov docs that calls for a vote of the members, ratification of the budget and to approve an expenditure over a certain dollar amount are about the only issues I can think of. Of course your community documents will spell this all out.
BTW, where are you located in AZ? I'm in Glendale at Arrowhead Ranch.
Queen Creek
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SamJ1 on 01/23/2009 7:46 AM
Posted By ScotJ on 01/21/2009 1:41 PM
Do non-Board members have any voting rights to decide an issue at a special meeting, other than removal of a director and replacement of that director?
Do non-Board members have any voting rights to decide an issue at a special meeting, other than removal of a director and replacement of that director?
Hi! Newbie here........
But when I saw this post.........couldn't resist ....
I have been trying to give our Community "Informational Voting Rights" via our Website and Password Protected Message Board for almost three years now.
In this, the 21st Century, where even first graders are learning to use a computer, isn't it time to use the internet in ALL of its possibilities?
Check out my site:
http://www.hendersonriverlanding.com/index.html
or just type: river1234.com in your Address Bar..........then go to our Message Board:
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/samn3s/vpost?id=3231795
Your thoughts?...........Sam
Sam, it's a nice goal, but whether even first graders "can" do it or not, many, many, many people have no interest (or exposure/access) to computers and the internet.
Simply because us "techie" types and others who dive in are there, it's no reason to make it the exclusive avenue for something like this.
We have over 300 homes in our neighborhood. We know how many are "wired" and we also know how many use the internet on a regular basis.
It's not even close to 25%. That means over 75% (actually it's closer to over 80%) of our residents do NOT now use or intend to use the internet. Trying to FORCE them to do so, simply to be able to participate in their HOA, is not only futile, but probably not legal.
Anyway, like I said, wish that it were different, but it just isn't.
(By the way, I know others may have better luck and higher internet/computer participation rates, but my neighborhood is not unique in our community. Very few HOAs here have large groups of members plugged in.)
SamJ1 (Nevada)
Posts: 11
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MicheleD on 01/23/2009 9:37 AM
Hi! Newbie here........
But when I saw this post.........couldn't resist ....
I have been trying to give our Community "Informational Voting Rights" via our Website and Password Protected Message Board for almost three years now.
In this, the 21st Century, where even first graders are learning to use a computer, isn't it time to use the internet in ALL of its possibilities?
Check out my site:
http://www.hendersonriverlanding.com/index.html
or just type: river1234.com in your Address Bar..........then go to our Message Board:
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/samn3s/vpost?id=3231795
Your thoughts?...........Sam
Posted By SamJ1 on 01/23/2009 7:46 AM
Posted By ScotJ on 01/21/2009 1:41 PM
Do non-Board members have any voting rights to decide an issue at a special meeting, other than removal of a director and replacement of that director?
Do non-Board members have any voting rights to decide an issue at a special meeting, other than removal of a director and replacement of that director?
Hi! Newbie here........
But when I saw this post.........couldn't resist ....
I have been trying to give our Community "Informational Voting Rights" via our Website and Password Protected Message Board for almost three years now.
In this, the 21st Century, where even first graders are learning to use a computer, isn't it time to use the internet in ALL of its possibilities?
Check out my site:
http://www.hendersonriverlanding.com/index.html
or just type: river1234.com in your Address Bar..........then go to our Message Board:
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/samn3s/vpost?id=3231795
Your thoughts?...........Sam
Sam, it's a nice goal, but whether even first graders "can" do it or not, many, many, many people have no interest (or exposure/access) to computers and the internet.
Simply because us "techie" types and others who dive in are there, it's no reason to make it the exclusive avenue for something like this.
We have over 300 homes in our neighborhood. We know how many are "wired" and we also know how many use the internet on a regular basis.
It's not even close to 25%. That means over 75% (actually it's closer to over 80%) of our residents do NOT now use or intend to use the internet. Trying to FORCE them to do so, simply to be able to participate in their HOA, is not only futile, but probably not legal.
Anyway, like I said, wish that it were different, but it just isn't.
(By the way, I know others may have better luck and higher internet/computer participation rates, but my neighborhood is not unique in our community. Very few HOAs here have large groups of members plugged in.)
Hi Michele!
The number of people "interested" in computers and the internet is increasing every year! Internet usage in the "Americas" is now about 26%.....
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats2.htm
world stats at:
http://www.internetworldstats.com/blog.htm
And I volunteer at our Local Senior Ctr, holding Free 'Computer Sessions' twice a week ..........and I now have over 50 "Attendees" over the age of 80!
Our street is very busy every day with UPS and FedEx Trucks making delivery of 'goods' ordered ONLINE! There are indeed a lot of "GrandMas" ordering online!
And I think you misunderstood my idea of of our Community Website whereby HomeOwners would be able to access our Free Message Board 24/7 - 365 days a year.....even if it was used by just 5% of our HomeOwners....that would be 17 Home Owners who would for maybe the first time be able to participate in our HOA! Those who, for one reason or another, have never attended a Meeting..........have never been able to voice their concerns?
Where they now could from the convenience of their home computer....or the computer from their neighbor's home.....relative's home .....or any public library....be able to participate in their HOA! They could have "Informational Voting Rights".............they could finally "HAVE A SAY IN THEIR HOA!" ...at our Community Website/Message Board! 24/7 - 365 Days A Year!
Again......they would be able to bring up their own concerns ..........and the entire community would 'see' those concerns .......allowing any number or ALL HomeOwners being able to Cast Their Informational "Vote".......and if the Board of Directors initiates procedures opposite to what the majority of homeowners cast in their "Informational Votes" on the Message Board (even if an issue had a vote of just 22 'yes', and 21 'no'....YES WINS!) And.....well.........it would sure be easy to vote that "particular" Board Member 'out' during each Annual Election if he voted against the wishes of our Message Board 'Results'?
Michele........again.......just "informational" voting rights by any number of HomeOwners, however small that may be..........would be MUCH BETTER than the "system" we now have in place!
Sam ......... http://www.hendersonriverlanding.com/index.html
or just: river1234.com
~
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Sam,
Ever wonder how we can walk down the same streets, read the same papers, watch the same programs on TV and still have such diverse opinions. Not sure I know how, but do know we do. Maybe that explains how some Board members are so reluctant to get involved in this mandatory e-mail stuff or maybe it is some kind of a "Board Hangup" that exists that causes some Board members to act defensively. This conversation can up here a few times and recently at a Board meeting at my place. Pretty much the same split and pretty much the same result. One item that seemed to be bothersome was how can a Board demand that owners supply e-mail addresses. Me, no big deal, we demand address, banking information, mortgage information, next of kin or responsible person, who to call in case of emergency, etc, etc. But e-mail adddresses................big problem. Our 65 unit condo has over 85% on line, we provide a wireless service and charge folks for using it, but we will not mail out five mailing to those that don't have e-mail and send e-mail all the rest. So, what to do?................not much to do except bide your time and keep chewing away.
But, what strikes me in your post, that you have actually gone out and are teaching computer use to 80 plus year olds. I know absolutely positively your efforts are going to brighten more days that than some strange Board position about e-mail addresses. I am 78, and know little about computers when the scale of what there is to know is considered. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with giving classes to your neighbors to allow them to use e-mail and get involved in their neighborhood. There is another current post that deals with a sort of a survey here about how much money does the association spend to wards education. What better use of the association money than teach a member how they can really communicate with their management and neighbors about their home.
Yeoman job!!!!!!!
Ever wonder how we can walk down the same streets, read the same papers, watch the same programs on TV and still have such diverse opinions. Not sure I know how, but do know we do. Maybe that explains how some Board members are so reluctant to get involved in this mandatory e-mail stuff or maybe it is some kind of a "Board Hangup" that exists that causes some Board members to act defensively. This conversation can up here a few times and recently at a Board meeting at my place. Pretty much the same split and pretty much the same result. One item that seemed to be bothersome was how can a Board demand that owners supply e-mail addresses. Me, no big deal, we demand address, banking information, mortgage information, next of kin or responsible person, who to call in case of emergency, etc, etc. But e-mail adddresses................big problem. Our 65 unit condo has over 85% on line, we provide a wireless service and charge folks for using it, but we will not mail out five mailing to those that don't have e-mail and send e-mail all the rest. So, what to do?................not much to do except bide your time and keep chewing away.
But, what strikes me in your post, that you have actually gone out and are teaching computer use to 80 plus year olds. I know absolutely positively your efforts are going to brighten more days that than some strange Board position about e-mail addresses. I am 78, and know little about computers when the scale of what there is to know is considered. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with giving classes to your neighbors to allow them to use e-mail and get involved in their neighborhood. There is another current post that deals with a sort of a survey here about how much money does the association spend to wards education. What better use of the association money than teach a member how they can really communicate with their management and neighbors about their home.
Yeoman job!!!!!!!
SamJ1 (Nevada)
Posts: 11
Posts: 11
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 01/23/2009 12:49 PM
Sam,
Ever wonder how we can walk down the same streets, read the same papers, watch the same programs on TV and still have such diverse opinions. Not sure I know how, but do know we do. Maybe that explains how some Board members are so reluctant to get involved in this mandatory e-mail stuff or maybe it is some kind of a "Board Hangup" that exists that causes some Board members to act defensively. This conversation can up here a few times and recently at a Board meeting at my place. Pretty much the same split and pretty much the same result. One item that seemed to be bothersome was how can a Board demand that owners supply e-mail addresses. Me, no big deal, we demand address, banking information, mortgage information, next of kin or responsible person, who to call in case of emergency, etc, etc. But e-mail adddresses................big problem. Our 65 unit condo has over 85% on line, we provide a wireless service and charge folks for using it, but we will not mail out five mailing to those that don't have e-mail and send e-mail all the rest. So, what to do?................not much to do except bide your time and keep chewing away.
But, what strikes me in your post, that you have actually gone out and are teaching computer use to 80 plus year olds. I know absolutely positively your efforts are going to brighten more days that than some strange Board position about e-mail addresses. I am 78, and know little about computers when the scale of what there is to know is considered. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with giving classes to your neighbors to allow them to use e-mail and get involved in their neighborhood. There is another current post that deals with a sort of a survey here about how much money does the association spend to wards education. What better use of the association money than teach a member how they can really communicate with their management and neighbors about their home.
Yeoman job!!!!!!!
Sam,
Ever wonder how we can walk down the same streets, read the same papers, watch the same programs on TV and still have such diverse opinions. Not sure I know how, but do know we do. Maybe that explains how some Board members are so reluctant to get involved in this mandatory e-mail stuff or maybe it is some kind of a "Board Hangup" that exists that causes some Board members to act defensively. This conversation can up here a few times and recently at a Board meeting at my place. Pretty much the same split and pretty much the same result. One item that seemed to be bothersome was how can a Board demand that owners supply e-mail addresses. Me, no big deal, we demand address, banking information, mortgage information, next of kin or responsible person, who to call in case of emergency, etc, etc. But e-mail adddresses................big problem. Our 65 unit condo has over 85% on line, we provide a wireless service and charge folks for using it, but we will not mail out five mailing to those that don't have e-mail and send e-mail all the rest. So, what to do?................not much to do except bide your time and keep chewing away.
But, what strikes me in your post, that you have actually gone out and are teaching computer use to 80 plus year olds. I know absolutely positively your efforts are going to brighten more days that than some strange Board position about e-mail addresses. I am 78, and know little about computers when the scale of what there is to know is considered. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with giving classes to your neighbors to allow them to use e-mail and get involved in their neighborhood. There is another current post that deals with a sort of a survey here about how much money does the association spend to wards education. What better use of the association money than teach a member how they can really communicate with their management and neighbors about their home.
Yeoman job!!!!!!!
Robert! I was a Yeoman 2nd Class in Coast Guard 64-68!
Mandatory E-Mail? NO! NO! Just let the HOA offer use of Community Web Site/Message Board to their community. My HOA refuses to even acknowledge me or our Website after 3 years! I have spent personally in excess of $600 in the 3 years past doing mailings to our 330 Home Owners......telling them of our Free Website. But it should always be voluntary.......should never make it mandatory that a HomeOwner supply his/her e-mail address?
In our situation............I fully believe our HOA Board Members are not even 'remotely' interested in having us Home Owners attend our very infrequent meetings or participate in a Community Website/Message Board. "They" possess the power and are certainly not interested in sharing that power with the Home Owners!
And on my/our Website..I have given out my Telephone Nbr and address encouraging any homeowner to come to my home so that I can teach them how to open their own FREE E-mail account at G-Mail or Yahoo Mail and how to participate at our Web Site/Message Board.
I know my website is a "tangle"...........and very hard to navigate......it is just a "work in progress"........my latest entry is at:
http://www.hendersonriverlanding.com/BlockWallFenceToRVParkingArea.html
I feel confident that it will not be long before a large percentage of Americans will finally: "Have A Say" in their HOA!
www.HaveASayInYourHOA.com
Hey! I am hoping it will generate $$$ !
PhilipK1 (Florida)
Posts: 1
Posts: 1
Posted:
If your community documents state the members must approve an increase in assessments, then a vote of the members would be required. However, in most instances the board alone can make this decision. If you live in a planned community in AZ, unless the community documents call for a lower amount, the members must vote to approve an increase that is 20% over the last assessment. . ." (Ref ARS33-1803) If you are in a condo assn, if there is a limit to the amount of the increase, it would be so stated in your community documents.
ARS Chapter 16 (33-1801- 33-1816) was passed in 1994 ; the condo act in 1986. Would you not agree that condos are a subset of planned communities? They meet all the reuirements in 33-1802 para 4
<4. "Planned community" means a real estate development which includes real estate owned and operated by a nonprofit corporation or unincorporated association of owners that is created for the purpose of managing, maintaining or improving the property and in which the owners of separately owned lots, parcels or units are mandatory members and are required to pay assessments to the association for these purposes. Planned community does not include a timeshare plan or a timeshare association that is governed by chapter 20 of this title>
and are not specifically excluded as are timeshares and schools (33-1801b)
33-1801-A Specifically states that:"A. This chapter applies to all planned communities." and then goes on to exclude ONLY schools and timeshare (33-1801 Para B and C) PARA C does NOT say "excludes those subect to Chapter 20 OR Chapter 9" It only lists Chapter 20 and schools.
Is there any case law on this subject? Under what rationale would Chapter 9 Condos not enjoy the added protections of Chapter 16 except when it is in conflict with Chapter 9 provisions?
Thanks for your thoughts,
Philip Kapleau
Scottsdale,AZ
.
StanH5 (Colorado)
Posts: 89
Posts: 89
Posted:
Votes at special meetings and who votes most likely are easily defined by: 1) is the meeting authorized and if so, 2) those attending the meeting (most likely only the Board members) can vote.
There are other special meetings that relate to voting such as when by-laws are changed which have to include all property owners. The other "special" meeting or event that would relate to who votes would be the election of Board members in which all homeowners participate.
Special meetings to raise HOA fees can and most likely are completed with Board members only
A side note: when I first moved into my HOA the voting results (the counts for an against) of any special meeting or the results (totals only) were not made known to the residents. It took me a year of battling with the Board to publish the voting results. Our by laws indicted the results were suppose to be made public as did our State bill/law. A few of us were weeks away from taking the Board to Court to get the results when they relented.
You may have by laws or other guiding principles concerning special meetings and voting rights but good luck trying to get such things enforced.
There are other special meetings that relate to voting such as when by-laws are changed which have to include all property owners. The other "special" meeting or event that would relate to who votes would be the election of Board members in which all homeowners participate.
Special meetings to raise HOA fees can and most likely are completed with Board members only
A side note: when I first moved into my HOA the voting results (the counts for an against) of any special meeting or the results (totals only) were not made known to the residents. It took me a year of battling with the Board to publish the voting results. Our by laws indicted the results were suppose to be made public as did our State bill/law. A few of us were weeks away from taking the Board to Court to get the results when they relented.
You may have by laws or other guiding principles concerning special meetings and voting rights but good luck trying to get such things enforced.
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posts: 24
Posted:
Update to my previous Posts.............and How great it was to read all the responses!
In the last few months, I met a Gentleman named: "Jonathan Friedrich" - who has been on Local TV News several times in his quest to HELP Home Owners who are being unfairly treated by their respective HOAs. I am helping him by providing a Free Website: www.HOA1234.com
Jonathan and all his fellow 'Crusaders' are doing what we can to change the Nevada NRS116 Laws to make them more: "Home Owner-Friendly"!
And to get back to my earlier argument that ALL Home Owners should now be afforded the chance to: "Have A Say In Their HOA" - 24/7 365 days a year - from the convenience of their Home Computer!
And my dear fellow home owners? Computer/Internet use is going to multiply immensely with Internet Shopping and Face Book and other Social Networking! Please check out Newsletter here: http://hoaadvocate.homestead.com/What-s-New-.html titled: "Join the 21st Century!"
Poorly attended Board Meetings where it is difficult to even hear what is being said? And then the home owner is restricted to just a two minute response? NO! NO! ....those days are soon coming to an end! Instead? ALL issues will be uploaded in writing to a website/message Board where 100% of Home Owners can read/study them at their Leisure and can take all the time they want to compose their response to each issue! And every single Home Owner can cast their personal Vote on Each & Every Issue! In effect? Every Home Owner can indeed become in effect a BOARD MEMBER! With Voting Rights! The days of HOAs being run like Nazi Germany? Are numbered indeed!
In the last few months, I met a Gentleman named: "Jonathan Friedrich" - who has been on Local TV News several times in his quest to HELP Home Owners who are being unfairly treated by their respective HOAs. I am helping him by providing a Free Website: www.HOA1234.com
Jonathan and all his fellow 'Crusaders' are doing what we can to change the Nevada NRS116 Laws to make them more: "Home Owner-Friendly"!
And to get back to my earlier argument that ALL Home Owners should now be afforded the chance to: "Have A Say In Their HOA" - 24/7 365 days a year - from the convenience of their Home Computer!
And my dear fellow home owners? Computer/Internet use is going to multiply immensely with Internet Shopping and Face Book and other Social Networking! Please check out Newsletter here: http://hoaadvocate.homestead.com/What-s-New-.html titled: "Join the 21st Century!"
Poorly attended Board Meetings where it is difficult to even hear what is being said? And then the home owner is restricted to just a two minute response? NO! NO! ....those days are soon coming to an end! Instead? ALL issues will be uploaded in writing to a website/message Board where 100% of Home Owners can read/study them at their Leisure and can take all the time they want to compose their response to each issue! And every single Home Owner can cast their personal Vote on Each & Every Issue! In effect? Every Home Owner can indeed become in effect a BOARD MEMBER! With Voting Rights! The days of HOAs being run like Nazi Germany? Are numbered indeed!
đ Attachments (1):
Sam Judie
StanH5 (Colorado)
Posts: 89
Posts: 89
Posted:
Glad to see I am not alone in dealing with dysfunctional HOA Boards!
First, and speaking only for my current HOA in Highlands Ranch, CO, residents only vote in elections for Board members and in special referendums to amend the by-laws.
If your Board increases your fees, you don't have a vote on that, the Board can independently complete a rise in fees.
I will follow SamJ2 and his efforts.
There are a few issues to begin the process of change from power in the hands of "lifer" Board members to all residents:
a. Term limits: if you don't have term limits these folks will stay in their positions until they drop dead. The enabling residents who simply rubber stamp elections of the same people, don't attend Board meetings, are adverse to change, and surely don't like any of the newer residents criticizing their "ole" boys are the blame. Time can only change the voting patterns and majorities and term limits, unfortunately are difficult to implement or put up for a vote because the only way initiatives like this are voted upon is with Board approval and that won't happen until the Board changes.
b. State laws must be changed to make by-laws other than empty rules that are used by Boards to enforce covenants (and I think that is good) but can't be legally be used by homeowners to hold abusive Boards accountable. Most State legislation has enforcement and penalty provisions and this must be changed.
First, and speaking only for my current HOA in Highlands Ranch, CO, residents only vote in elections for Board members and in special referendums to amend the by-laws.
If your Board increases your fees, you don't have a vote on that, the Board can independently complete a rise in fees.
I will follow SamJ2 and his efforts.
There are a few issues to begin the process of change from power in the hands of "lifer" Board members to all residents:
a. Term limits: if you don't have term limits these folks will stay in their positions until they drop dead. The enabling residents who simply rubber stamp elections of the same people, don't attend Board meetings, are adverse to change, and surely don't like any of the newer residents criticizing their "ole" boys are the blame. Time can only change the voting patterns and majorities and term limits, unfortunately are difficult to implement or put up for a vote because the only way initiatives like this are voted upon is with Board approval and that won't happen until the Board changes.
b. State laws must be changed to make by-laws other than empty rules that are used by Boards to enforce covenants (and I think that is good) but can't be legally be used by homeowners to hold abusive Boards accountable. Most State legislation has enforcement and penalty provisions and this must be changed.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Stan, I know you like to deal in generalities but I would like to know more about a couple of the items you have put forth through several of your posts.
1. Term Limits, while I am not opposed to them I would like to know what you see happening when an experienced director (a âliferâ if you will) cannot run because of term limits and no one steps up to run for their seat or worse IMHO a good director cannot run because of term limits and the only ones willing to run are shall we say intellectually or morally challenged?
2. You keep talking about âNobody to Enforceâ just who do you want to enforce the CC&Râs? Currently if a homeowner believes the BOD is violating the CC&Râs they have the option to sue the HOA for either injunctive or punitive relief along with court costs and/or attorney feeâs. Who do you see enforcing the CC&Râs, the police and court system or a State appointed arbiter with plenipotentiary powers in HOA matters?
Normally when a person sues the HOA and wins, they receive the results of the suit. If the State is involved, such as with a criminal trial, any fines or fees imposed by the judge are paid to the State, who keeps the money; is this what you foresee? And are there any consequences (monetary or otherwise) for homeowners who repeatedly file baseless or frivolous charges?
1. Term Limits, while I am not opposed to them I would like to know what you see happening when an experienced director (a âliferâ if you will) cannot run because of term limits and no one steps up to run for their seat or worse IMHO a good director cannot run because of term limits and the only ones willing to run are shall we say intellectually or morally challenged?
2. You keep talking about âNobody to Enforceâ just who do you want to enforce the CC&Râs? Currently if a homeowner believes the BOD is violating the CC&Râs they have the option to sue the HOA for either injunctive or punitive relief along with court costs and/or attorney feeâs. Who do you see enforcing the CC&Râs, the police and court system or a State appointed arbiter with plenipotentiary powers in HOA matters?
Normally when a person sues the HOA and wins, they receive the results of the suit. If the State is involved, such as with a criminal trial, any fines or fees imposed by the judge are paid to the State, who keeps the money; is this what you foresee? And are there any consequences (monetary or otherwise) for homeowners who repeatedly file baseless or frivolous charges?
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Hello to all,
Don't post much but felt Glen's remarks cut closer to the bone. What is; is, and HOA's are no exception. They stand as the result of their evolution, collectively and singularly. Most, nearly all, operate under minority rule, like it or not. If this minority did not exist, HOA's collapse or fail. I suggest they will never be run by the majority and the majority, and for large part, don't have a clue as to what it takes to do the day to day scut work. If you have the finances, turn it over to the professionals and watch the professionals to insure good management. That is ideal and a far cry from majority rules. Communication has been at a level that all members of an association can participate in discussions and decisions, most elect not to.
Now, if you can change the communication to educate the owners, maybe then, you may have some chance of majority rules.
Sure, there are rogue boards and ego seekers and a few nut cases, but by far, HOA's stumble along with a few owners leading the parade, and they get the job done. My state, SC, according to the AJ office feels that internal affairs, exceptions for criminal activity, should be handled by the association. In other words, you are big boys and girls, settle your own spats.
Don't post much but felt Glen's remarks cut closer to the bone. What is; is, and HOA's are no exception. They stand as the result of their evolution, collectively and singularly. Most, nearly all, operate under minority rule, like it or not. If this minority did not exist, HOA's collapse or fail. I suggest they will never be run by the majority and the majority, and for large part, don't have a clue as to what it takes to do the day to day scut work. If you have the finances, turn it over to the professionals and watch the professionals to insure good management. That is ideal and a far cry from majority rules. Communication has been at a level that all members of an association can participate in discussions and decisions, most elect not to.
Now, if you can change the communication to educate the owners, maybe then, you may have some chance of majority rules.
Sure, there are rogue boards and ego seekers and a few nut cases, but by far, HOA's stumble along with a few owners leading the parade, and they get the job done. My state, SC, according to the AJ office feels that internal affairs, exceptions for criminal activity, should be handled by the association. In other words, you are big boys and girls, settle your own spats.
StanH5 (Colorado)
Posts: 89
Posts: 89
Posted:
RobertR1
Your comments in general on settling HOA disputes between HOA Boards and homeowners: settle disuputes among the family? Well, if that worked this forum wouldn't exist, the Courts would not have thousands of cases concerning these issues, and bad behavior/dishonest activity of any Board would most likely have to be tolerated as Boards control the operation of the community. In other words, the "trust me, I'm Your Board" defense should work and we know the truth about that. Governance of HOA's requires some guidelines, rules, regulations, and, yes, enforcement and penalties. This goes for the banking industry, food processing industry, and most activities in our society. Disputes are by definition events that can't be resolved due to one or both parties for a variety of reasons and ,therefore, can't be settled ourselves. This is especially true when one party is in a positon of power and control (Board) and has no regards for the very tools set up to resolve conflict: by-laws. It would be nice to say all Boards provide and open, negotiating, and friendly and cooperative environment for residents but that is only in a world defined by someone on another planet. The good news is that in term limited HOA's and hopefully most HOA's, most business is simple and repetitive and not corrupt and most volunteer Board members are serving the community when others won't step forward. Questions on this forum and other web sites and in State legislatures address those dysfunctional Boards that one might say tarnish all others.
Your comments in general on settling HOA disputes between HOA Boards and homeowners: settle disuputes among the family? Well, if that worked this forum wouldn't exist, the Courts would not have thousands of cases concerning these issues, and bad behavior/dishonest activity of any Board would most likely have to be tolerated as Boards control the operation of the community. In other words, the "trust me, I'm Your Board" defense should work and we know the truth about that. Governance of HOA's requires some guidelines, rules, regulations, and, yes, enforcement and penalties. This goes for the banking industry, food processing industry, and most activities in our society. Disputes are by definition events that can't be resolved due to one or both parties for a variety of reasons and ,therefore, can't be settled ourselves. This is especially true when one party is in a positon of power and control (Board) and has no regards for the very tools set up to resolve conflict: by-laws. It would be nice to say all Boards provide and open, negotiating, and friendly and cooperative environment for residents but that is only in a world defined by someone on another planet. The good news is that in term limited HOA's and hopefully most HOA's, most business is simple and repetitive and not corrupt and most volunteer Board members are serving the community when others won't step forward. Questions on this forum and other web sites and in State legislatures address those dysfunctional Boards that one might say tarnish all others.
NormanM1 (Nevada)
Posts: 8
Posts: 8
Posted:
Just a response to Donna S, MaryA1 and Scot. It looks like you are under the impression that it takes a vote of some kind in order for a Board of Directors to raise fees or impose a special assessment. WRONG!
EXAMPLE: Hear in Nevada, we have some of the largest Community Associations in the country. Over 7000 homeowners are in a single HOA. While in most states, it is required that a developer submit and fund a reserve study when the Association is built out (Transition from Developer control to Resident control), in Nevada the âpowers that beâ have discovered some new and novel ways to get around that rigid requirement.
Itâs accomplished by the BOD and the reserve study provider who is willing to accept anything and everything the BOD says. When the developer transitioned where I live for example, did not fund the reserves adequately at transition, the BOD merely informed the reserve study provider that the price for a reserved item was 96 % more than the industry standard. The new higher (non-verified) price was then published in the reserve study and âPRESTOâ. A higher assessment was put in place to fund the mythical higher price.
Bottom line â there needs to be more control to prevent Boards from influencing the reserve studies. Using actual contracted prices, instead of using bid prices would be a good start. Bid prices as you might know can be all over the place, but it seems here in Nevada it is perfectly acceptable to use âhighest bidderâ prices whenever the BOD needs to increase the required funding INSTEAD OF VOTING FOR IT. It works the same way for a âBudgetâ. If the âBudgetâ is based on fictitious or artificially high prices for the proposed expenses, the âBudgetâ itself acts as a legal vehicle to raise your dues without a vote. By the way, where I live it takes 90% of the population to even REJECT the budget.
Yes, you read that right. It takes 90% to reject the Budget. Has anyone reading this EVER had an election or a âBudgetâ vote where 90% of the population actually voted?
EXAMPLE: Hear in Nevada, we have some of the largest Community Associations in the country. Over 7000 homeowners are in a single HOA. While in most states, it is required that a developer submit and fund a reserve study when the Association is built out (Transition from Developer control to Resident control), in Nevada the âpowers that beâ have discovered some new and novel ways to get around that rigid requirement.
Itâs accomplished by the BOD and the reserve study provider who is willing to accept anything and everything the BOD says. When the developer transitioned where I live for example, did not fund the reserves adequately at transition, the BOD merely informed the reserve study provider that the price for a reserved item was 96 % more than the industry standard. The new higher (non-verified) price was then published in the reserve study and âPRESTOâ. A higher assessment was put in place to fund the mythical higher price.
Bottom line â there needs to be more control to prevent Boards from influencing the reserve studies. Using actual contracted prices, instead of using bid prices would be a good start. Bid prices as you might know can be all over the place, but it seems here in Nevada it is perfectly acceptable to use âhighest bidderâ prices whenever the BOD needs to increase the required funding INSTEAD OF VOTING FOR IT. It works the same way for a âBudgetâ. If the âBudgetâ is based on fictitious or artificially high prices for the proposed expenses, the âBudgetâ itself acts as a legal vehicle to raise your dues without a vote. By the way, where I live it takes 90% of the population to even REJECT the budget.
Yes, you read that right. It takes 90% to reject the Budget. Has anyone reading this EVER had an election or a âBudgetâ vote where 90% of the population actually voted?
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Stan,
Never said all boards are wonderful and make wise decisions. Am saying MOST (by far) Boards are run by people like you and I. We have our faults and like family usually settle differences and I believe that "usually" expresssion is accurate. Should bad boards be taken to task? Of course (loook at your figures). But consider the other facts, these differences are settled every day by HOA Boards and owners. Most, I believe are compromises, otherwise nothing would look.
But to get back to the original subject on the thread, I would conclude that technology and education or the ownership is necessary to run a comfortable HOA. Our condo is 98% registered e-mail. Do we utilize technology to the fullest? I doubt it, but, we are changing and making the adjustments to educate our ownership in the advantages of owner participation. The will is there, the technology is there, but we are still behind the curve, but, we are getting better. I don't believe we are the exception.
Never said all boards are wonderful and make wise decisions. Am saying MOST (by far) Boards are run by people like you and I. We have our faults and like family usually settle differences and I believe that "usually" expresssion is accurate. Should bad boards be taken to task? Of course (loook at your figures). But consider the other facts, these differences are settled every day by HOA Boards and owners. Most, I believe are compromises, otherwise nothing would look.
But to get back to the original subject on the thread, I would conclude that technology and education or the ownership is necessary to run a comfortable HOA. Our condo is 98% registered e-mail. Do we utilize technology to the fullest? I doubt it, but, we are changing and making the adjustments to educate our ownership in the advantages of owner participation. The will is there, the technology is there, but we are still behind the curve, but, we are getting better. I don't believe we are the exception.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Robert, Our dear Friend,
Where have you been hiding? We all have missed your very wise wisdom and sense of humor.
That being said, You have a good sense of what HOA's are and how they function generally. Being that Boards are elected by members who think similar and being volunteers, when you get the super whiners and those who's entire day is spent looking for slip ups, these few make being on the Board, a real chore. Responding to these house detectives takes away from productive time and certainly makes the membership involvement time compromised. Our new poster who has not said anything positive about his HOA is an example. I wonder how the majority of his fellow members feel about how their Board is taking care of the HOA. I doubt that there is much support for his list of complaints. Most will say that as long as things are working, why reinvent the wheel.
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 12/27/2010 12:13 PM
Stan,
Never said all boards are wonderful and make wise decisions. Am saying MOST (by far) Boards are run by people like you and I. We have our faults and like family usually settle differences and I believe that "usually" expresssion is accurate. Should bad boards be taken to task? Of course (loook at your figures). But consider the other facts, these differences are settled every day by HOA Boards and owners. Most, I believe are compromises, otherwise nothing would look.
But to get back to the original subject on the thread, I would conclude that technology and education or the ownership is necessary to run a comfortable HOA. Our condo is 98% registered e-mail. Do we utilize technology to the fullest? I doubt it, but, we are changing and making the adjustments to educate our ownership in the advantages of owner participation. The will is there, the technology is there, but we are still behind the curve, but, we are getting better. I don't believe we are the exception.
Stan,
Never said all boards are wonderful and make wise decisions. Am saying MOST (by far) Boards are run by people like you and I. We have our faults and like family usually settle differences and I believe that "usually" expresssion is accurate. Should bad boards be taken to task? Of course (loook at your figures). But consider the other facts, these differences are settled every day by HOA Boards and owners. Most, I believe are compromises, otherwise nothing would look.
But to get back to the original subject on the thread, I would conclude that technology and education or the ownership is necessary to run a comfortable HOA. Our condo is 98% registered e-mail. Do we utilize technology to the fullest? I doubt it, but, we are changing and making the adjustments to educate our ownership in the advantages of owner participation. The will is there, the technology is there, but we are still behind the curve, but, we are getting better. I don't believe we are the exception.
RobertR1 !!! I enjoyed your well written post! And yes.......the time where over 50% of the population in the US use the internet as often and as easily as they now use the Remote Control on their TV? 'That Time' will be here very soon indeed!
And the post by âDonnaSâ? âŚâŚ.I find her expression: âSuper Whinersâ interestingâŚâŚ.I can only guess she has been a long-time Board Member herself who feels that Home Owners who Volunteer to be on the Board are entitled to âRun The Showâ without any input from the Home Owners themselves except at Election timeâŚ..?
I am sorryâŚâŚâŚâŚbut I feel that level of âPomposityââŚâŚthe same type exhibited by Congress MenâŚâŚâŚis something that ALL Americans should do ALL that they can to give America back to the people! And Home Owners in every HOA! Letting every Home Owner âHave A Sayâ in their HOA 24/7 â 365 days a year â from the convenience of their Home Computer!
Sam of HOA1234 dot com
Sam Judie
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Sam,
"And the post by âDonnaSâ? âŚâŚ.I find her expression: âSuper Whinersâ interestingâŚâŚ.I can only guess she has been a long-time Board Member herself who feels that Home Owners who Volunteer to be on the Board are entitled to âRun The Showâ without any input from the Home Owners themselves except at Election timeâŚ..
AU CONTRAIRE MON AMI,YOU GUESS WRONG. Anyone who has ever served on a HOA Board knows wwho I am referring to in the whine department. Every association has one. These are the people who NEVER serve or volunteer to work within the association but play armchair quarterbacks.
I am a champion of getting members involved, having gone door to door many times in my HOA before I was a Board member, trying to get enough votes to pass amendments, increasing the Board size and getting the Florida Forestry division down to our area to change our landscape tree requirements by using much better choices of trees for our area. You can Google me to see what I accomplished for my HOA.
Members of the community control the Board membership and when an association runs amuck, it is because of complacincy by the members. If the Board stinks, then the members have the ability and right to remove them rather than sit and whine about how much they do not agree with Board actions. And as I said above, all associations have these type of members. Good associations have activists who keep the trsin running on the tracks.
StanH5 (Colorado)
Posts: 89
Posts: 89
Posted:
To my knowledge and current experience, Boards can increase fees at will, period.
RanaG (Nevada)
Posts: 12
Posts: 12
Posted:
I too am in Nevada, in an HOA numbering in excess of 7,000 homes. Pardon my sarcasm, but bless Del Webb for his plan to give us an HOA larger than most towns in population in our state. We have a board of 7 making decisions for us, forming committees that must serve "at the will of the board" and members approved by the board. When running for election to the board the election committee censors all text of speaches and written date that the residents will read if it is to be sent in any HOA publication.
Since the legislature passed a statute stating that owners have the right to give opposing views on any community owned channel, candidates are no longer allowed to give their campaign speech on our community TV channel. We have a community web site that contained a message board and that too was removed until the board can "find a means of moderating all posts to be placed on the board prior to their being seen" more censorship. Long story short, we, in this HOA are living in a "police state" run by our board and DonnaS calls people like us "whiners", I wonder why we complain?
There are dozens of complaints at the Nevada Ombudsman's office from this HOA yet our board flatly refuses to meet with the Ombudsman and homeower to talk, the next step is arbitration and we all know who is the big loser there!
For five years I was President of another HOA and in that time there was not ONE complaint filed with the Ombudsman. Does the term RESIDENT FRIENDLY ring a bell. That was our motto but these fools don't seem to know what that means.
Since the legislature passed a statute stating that owners have the right to give opposing views on any community owned channel, candidates are no longer allowed to give their campaign speech on our community TV channel. We have a community web site that contained a message board and that too was removed until the board can "find a means of moderating all posts to be placed on the board prior to their being seen" more censorship. Long story short, we, in this HOA are living in a "police state" run by our board and DonnaS calls people like us "whiners", I wonder why we complain?
There are dozens of complaints at the Nevada Ombudsman's office from this HOA yet our board flatly refuses to meet with the Ombudsman and homeower to talk, the next step is arbitration and we all know who is the big loser there!
For five years I was President of another HOA and in that time there was not ONE complaint filed with the Ombudsman. Does the term RESIDENT FRIENDLY ring a bell. That was our motto but these fools don't seem to know what that means.
StanH5 (Colorado)
Posts: 89
Posts: 89
Posted:
Donna, my point is that for all those self serving, self praising Board members in HOA's that complain no one understands the time commitment or appreciates their work, step aside and allow for new blood who won't complain about serving and actually will introduce new ideas and efficiencies to the HOA. The problem as most who follow HOA issues rests not with those who uncover the problem and offer solutions it is with the apathetic homeowner.
NormanM1 (Nevada)
Posts: 8
Posts: 8
Posted:
Well now I know that no matter where you go in this country, you will find people out there who are board members or board member sympathizers that will defend the âVolunteersâ who âdo all the workâ and maybe they do make a âlittle bitty mistake now and thenâ but they have to put up with âSuper Whinersâ and âMal Contentsâ and itâs THIER fault when things run amuck.
The only thing I can really agree with is the commentator who said âGood associations have activists who keep the train running on the tracks.â A well run Board of Directors doesnât need activists â period.
On the other hand a Board of Directors who have something to hide will stop at NOTHING to penalize and persecute the activists who only want more transparency and accountability. When a Board of Directors begin to hide the facts from the residents of the community, itâs time to turn on the spotlights and let the light shine into the dark corners of the board rooms AND UNDER THE CARPETS where all the secrets are hidden. A guy named Jonathan Friedrich has turned on the lights in Nevada, and it may take a while but methinks that before the smoke clears there may be a lot of rats running from the woodpile.
The only thing I can really agree with is the commentator who said âGood associations have activists who keep the train running on the tracks.â A well run Board of Directors doesnât need activists â period.
On the other hand a Board of Directors who have something to hide will stop at NOTHING to penalize and persecute the activists who only want more transparency and accountability. When a Board of Directors begin to hide the facts from the residents of the community, itâs time to turn on the spotlights and let the light shine into the dark corners of the board rooms AND UNDER THE CARPETS where all the secrets are hidden. A guy named Jonathan Friedrich has turned on the lights in Nevada, and it may take a while but methinks that before the smoke clears there may be a lot of rats running from the woodpile.
StanH5 (Colorado)
Posts: 89
Posts: 89
Posted:
SamJ2,
I couldn't agree with you more about your comment "Home Owners who Volunteer to be on the Board are entitled to âRun The Show". Not only do they want to run the show, they believe they are the only ones able to manage the HOA and want to do it forever. Good comment and well put. One can often tell from comments who the complaining, self praising Board members are vs. residents who simply want to improve the HOA and increase participation in the operation and maintenance and decision making in the HOA
I couldn't agree with you more about your comment "Home Owners who Volunteer to be on the Board are entitled to âRun The Show". Not only do they want to run the show, they believe they are the only ones able to manage the HOA and want to do it forever. Good comment and well put. One can often tell from comments who the complaining, self praising Board members are vs. residents who simply want to improve the HOA and increase participation in the operation and maintenance and decision making in the HOA
StanH5 (Colorado)
Posts: 89
Posts: 89
Posted:
RanaG, great summary of your situation. I doubt you are simply a complainer, simply disgruntle, or angry. I noticed in the legislation you referred to that there was no mention of enforcement or penalties which is similar to Colorado. The State is great at providing empty guidelines. The censorship you mention by your Board is not uncommon. The game of the Board controlling information in their favor makes the election option for resolving problems very difficult. The business of controlling information by a Board, in particular in community sanctioned newsletters, web site, video, etc. exemplifies what a dysfunctional Board does to chase away residents from participating and ensures their continued election. I could go on but have written about this in this forum and others. Your situation is beyond description for me. The Ombudsman Office/service is generally a joke, the Ombudsman appointed via the Real Estate industry, and they normally have no enforcement authority. We homeowners have a long difficult road in resolving HOA issues but there is hope with us who get involved and air issues.
StanH5 (Colorado)
Posts: 89
Posts: 89
Posted:
Norman
Good observation and please continue to update us as Rana has on the situation in Nevada. I know Colorado is dysfunctional with HOA legislation and homeowner rights and your information on your experiences in Nev can only help me wade through the HOA mess.
Good observation and please continue to update us as Rana has on the situation in Nevada. I know Colorado is dysfunctional with HOA legislation and homeowner rights and your information on your experiences in Nev can only help me wade through the HOA mess.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,046
Posts: 21,046
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RanaG on 12/27/2010 5:32 PM
Since the legislature passed a statute stating that owners have the right to give opposing views on any community owned channel, candidates are no longer allowed to give their campaign speech on our community TV channel. We have a community web site that contained a message board and that too was removed until the board can "find a means of moderating all posts to be placed on the board prior to their being seen" more censorship. Long story short, we, in this HOA are living in a "police state" run by our board and DonnaS calls people like us "whiners", I wonder why we complain?
Since the legislature passed a statute stating that owners have the right to give opposing views on any community owned channel, candidates are no longer allowed to give their campaign speech on our community TV channel. We have a community web site that contained a message board and that too was removed until the board can "find a means of moderating all posts to be placed on the board prior to their being seen" more censorship. Long story short, we, in this HOA are living in a "police state" run by our board and DonnaS calls people like us "whiners", I wonder why we complain?
If I understand you correctly, it sounds like your State legislature passed something that had unintended consequences. By passing a law requiring the same time to opposing views they made it impractical for any media outlet to carry any view on an issue. I saw impractical because media outlets must make money and if air time must be given to anyone with an opposing or different view, ad revenues are less. With the worst case potential of losing a lot of revenue as you provide access to every group with an opinion including those society would (for lack of a better word) label as extreme or fringe.
Unfortunately, I expect that this law would also apply to your Associations web site. How would you like it if your Association was funding a media outlet for extremist groups to express themselves on. I know that the likely hood of it actually happening is slim, but it could and once it does, the Association would have no choice but to publish articles from those groups. An intelligent Board would take steps to protect themselves from it.
I expect that the board isn't trying to be a censor or promote censorship. I expect that the Board is trying to protect the membership from legal action from groups who might demand equal time/space vs. paying for it themselves. Or perhaps legal action because someone else say an opposing opinion on that web site that suggest doing injury to another and chose to do it - causing the Association to be included in a negligence lawsuit (because they shouldn't have placed the article on their web site). Even if the Association wins, they will be spending your money for legal fees to prove no negligence.
Instead of blaming your Board, you might want to ask your State representative if this is what they intended with that law and demand to know when they will repeal it so information can start flowing
again.
Could you provide a link to that law so I can see if my views are valid? I would appreciate it.
Tim
StanH5 (Colorado)
Posts: 89
Posts: 89
Posted:
In regards to a Board censoring opposing opinions. I'm they know exactly what they are doing. This video media outlet for the community should follow an easy rule: if the content is relates to the community and isn't making a personal attack and asks questions for consideration then it should be allowed. If the content relates to activities of a political, religious, violent, racial, or subversive nature and relates to HOA or outside of the HOA then it can be prohibited. This can be refined somewhat but if residents are expressing concerns, asking questions, putting forth their resume to run for the Board it should be allowed. Again, I'm the Board knows exactly what it is doing in this Nevada community when it shuts down the network and/or controls other information in the community.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
To all,
If we give all these opinions on this thread credibility, and I think we should, then, let's also consider the history behind all this. The wayward, rogue, entrenched, egotistical serving, maybe even criminal boards all evolve during the tenure of the associations residents. No way around it, they as a group allowed it all to take place. Lot's of the blame is on their shoulders, wouldn't you agree? The secret seems to be to be able to show all homeowners the advantage of participating and paying attention to what is happening. That road is never smooth, or is the road to constructive change. It took a long time to build the empire of a misdirected board. It will take a long time for change to be made. The most productive change will be that change that is made by little by little eating away at the tree. At some point the battle to control will be lost and the walls will tumble. The tricky part is having the manpower in place to take over the job. It is not uncommon for an HOA to go from one dictator to another, all elected by the owners.
If we give all these opinions on this thread credibility, and I think we should, then, let's also consider the history behind all this. The wayward, rogue, entrenched, egotistical serving, maybe even criminal boards all evolve during the tenure of the associations residents. No way around it, they as a group allowed it all to take place. Lot's of the blame is on their shoulders, wouldn't you agree? The secret seems to be to be able to show all homeowners the advantage of participating and paying attention to what is happening. That road is never smooth, or is the road to constructive change. It took a long time to build the empire of a misdirected board. It will take a long time for change to be made. The most productive change will be that change that is made by little by little eating away at the tree. At some point the battle to control will be lost and the walls will tumble. The tricky part is having the manpower in place to take over the job. It is not uncommon for an HOA to go from one dictator to another, all elected by the owners.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Robert,
You said....."No way around it, they as a group allowed it all to take place. Lot's of the blame is on their shoulders, wouldn't you agree? The secret seems to be to be able to show all homeowners the advantage of participating and paying attention to what is happening"
It does not get much plainer that members can complain all that they want but if they(members) allow the Board or Dictators as they have been called, to continue running the association to the dislike of the homeowners, then who is to blame? I say, quit playing the blame game and fix the problem by positive, constructive involvement.
NormanM1 (Nevada)
Posts: 8
Posts: 8
Posted:
Response to StanH5;
Thanks for the encouragement. Being a ânewbieâ I really appreciate reading about all the other problems across the country. Iâm constantly amazed at the frustration some of us have, but I fully understand why.
Ten years ago (when I was âonlyâ 67 years old), I was widowed and living alone. In the year 2001 I started a new life. After selling my home, I married again and began a new life as âGrandpaâ to some wonderful adopted kids. My new wife had purchased a home in a â55 and olderâ Community built by Del Webb, and after we married we decided that was where we wanted to spend the rest of our lives. It was my very FIRST exposure to a Community Association, and in the year 2005 the Association was to be completed by the developer, and turned over to our first âresident controlled Board of Directorsâ. Thatâs when I found out what a bunch of politically inspired idiots can do turn your life into a nightmare. In Henderson Nv, every Board of Directors election since the developer turnover has been manipulated by a Political Action Committee that calls themselves The âUnity Partyâ.
The very first act of the âUnity controlledâ Board of Directors was to allow the developer to UNDERFUND the Association coffers at the time of transition, and pass the burden of making up the shortfall on to the residents of the community. Here (in Henderson Nevada), a âpoliticalâ party has not only taken over the Board of Directors, they also control the board elections and the committeeâs that are supposed to be âlisteningâ to the problems of the residents of our community. (By now most of the readers here should be laughing out load- stop it). We also have âown very ownâ TV station, but guess who controls ALL the content? We also have âour very ownâ website and message board, but recently the BOD completely shut it down because it was getting too many âBoard unfriendlyâ comments.
Here in Henderson Nv, if a resident such as myself decides to become an activist and do some research to find out if every thing is on the âup and upâ, you are persecuted by the âUnity partyâ Board of Directors and believe me when I say that it is NOT a pleasant experience. Now, because I fear some legal consequences, I can not get into specifics here in this public forum, but believe me when I say that by agreeing to purchase a home in Nevada that is controlled by a HOA you have signed away your freedoms, AND your rights to âDue Processâ. The âpolitacally inspiredâ, developer friendly, PAC has some long tenacles that may even reach into the State capital.
I would like to hear more âhorror storiesâ from some of the other States. Maybe we can zero in on a solution.
Thanks for the encouragement. Being a ânewbieâ I really appreciate reading about all the other problems across the country. Iâm constantly amazed at the frustration some of us have, but I fully understand why.
Ten years ago (when I was âonlyâ 67 years old), I was widowed and living alone. In the year 2001 I started a new life. After selling my home, I married again and began a new life as âGrandpaâ to some wonderful adopted kids. My new wife had purchased a home in a â55 and olderâ Community built by Del Webb, and after we married we decided that was where we wanted to spend the rest of our lives. It was my very FIRST exposure to a Community Association, and in the year 2005 the Association was to be completed by the developer, and turned over to our first âresident controlled Board of Directorsâ. Thatâs when I found out what a bunch of politically inspired idiots can do turn your life into a nightmare. In Henderson Nv, every Board of Directors election since the developer turnover has been manipulated by a Political Action Committee that calls themselves The âUnity Partyâ.
The very first act of the âUnity controlledâ Board of Directors was to allow the developer to UNDERFUND the Association coffers at the time of transition, and pass the burden of making up the shortfall on to the residents of the community. Here (in Henderson Nevada), a âpoliticalâ party has not only taken over the Board of Directors, they also control the board elections and the committeeâs that are supposed to be âlisteningâ to the problems of the residents of our community. (By now most of the readers here should be laughing out load- stop it). We also have âown very ownâ TV station, but guess who controls ALL the content? We also have âour very ownâ website and message board, but recently the BOD completely shut it down because it was getting too many âBoard unfriendlyâ comments.
Here in Henderson Nv, if a resident such as myself decides to become an activist and do some research to find out if every thing is on the âup and upâ, you are persecuted by the âUnity partyâ Board of Directors and believe me when I say that it is NOT a pleasant experience. Now, because I fear some legal consequences, I can not get into specifics here in this public forum, but believe me when I say that by agreeing to purchase a home in Nevada that is controlled by a HOA you have signed away your freedoms, AND your rights to âDue Processâ. The âpolitacally inspiredâ, developer friendly, PAC has some long tenacles that may even reach into the State capital.
I would like to hear more âhorror storiesâ from some of the other States. Maybe we can zero in on a solution.
StanH5 (Colorado)
Posts: 89
Posts: 89
Posted:
In summary, Special Meetings may be of two types: a Board of Directors (BOD) Special Meeting and a Special Meeting that involves a vote of the general HOA residents. Boards can hold special meetings, in my HOA, when a majority are in attendance to discuss an issue or to vote (only they vote) to place a measure up for voting as in the case of a by law change. Non-Board members have no voting privileges in these meetings. In a Special Meeting that is conducted to vote on the change of by-laws or covenants all residents vote. There are special meetings to discuss various issues that require two thirds of the attendees at the meeting to approve an issue to be voted upon by all residents but I've not seen this take place as mostly if a Board decides it wants to support a general vote of all residents to change the goverance of the community the special meetings to discuss and approve with all residents doesn't take place.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Special Meetings in Colorado
1. Who May Call a Special Meeting? Colorado law requires that a special meeting be held if:
a. The board of directors or some other person authorized by the Bylaws, or by a resolution of the board, calls for the meeting; or
b. The association has received a written demand for the meeting which states the purpose for holding the special meeting, and which is signed by at least ten percent (10%) of the members entitled to vote on the matter proposed to be considered at the meeting unless the Bylaws provide
otherwise (C.R.S. §7-127-102 (1)(b)); or
c. In communities subject to CCIOA, by call of the president, by a majority of the board, or by unit owners having twenty percent (20%), or any lower percentage set in the Bylaws, of the votes in the association.
2. Date and Time of a Special Meeting. If the association does not issue notice of the special meeting within thirty (30) days of receiving a valid demand, then a person signing the demand may set the time and place of the meeting and issue the required notice (C.R.S. §7-127-102(3)).
3. Matters Considered at a Special Meeting. Unless the Bylaws provide otherwise, only business within the purposes described in the notice of the meeting may be conducted (C.R.S. §7-127-102(5)).
1. Who May Call a Special Meeting? Colorado law requires that a special meeting be held if:
a. The board of directors or some other person authorized by the Bylaws, or by a resolution of the board, calls for the meeting; or
b. The association has received a written demand for the meeting which states the purpose for holding the special meeting, and which is signed by at least ten percent (10%) of the members entitled to vote on the matter proposed to be considered at the meeting unless the Bylaws provide
otherwise (C.R.S. §7-127-102 (1)(b)); or
c. In communities subject to CCIOA, by call of the president, by a majority of the board, or by unit owners having twenty percent (20%), or any lower percentage set in the Bylaws, of the votes in the association.
2. Date and Time of a Special Meeting. If the association does not issue notice of the special meeting within thirty (30) days of receiving a valid demand, then a person signing the demand may set the time and place of the meeting and issue the required notice (C.R.S. §7-127-102(3)).
3. Matters Considered at a Special Meeting. Unless the Bylaws provide otherwise, only business within the purposes described in the notice of the meeting may be conducted (C.R.S. §7-127-102(5)).
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
SamJ2 (Nevada)
Posts: 24
Posts: 24
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DonnaS on 12/28/2010 8:17 AM
Robert,
You said....."No way around it, they as a group allowed it all to take place. Lot's of the blame is on their shoulders, wouldn't you agree? The secret seems to be to be able to show all homeowners the advantage of participating and paying attention to what is happening"
It does not get much plainer that members can complain all that they want but if they(members) allow the Board or Dictators as they have been called, to continue running the association to the dislike of the homeowners, then who is to blame? I say, quit playing the blame game and fix the problem by positive, constructive involvement.
Robert,
You said....."No way around it, they as a group allowed it all to take place. Lot's of the blame is on their shoulders, wouldn't you agree? The secret seems to be to be able to show all homeowners the advantage of participating and paying attention to what is happening"
It does not get much plainer that members can complain all that they want but if they(members) allow the Board or Dictators as they have been called, to continue running the association to the dislike of the homeowners, then who is to blame? I say, quit playing the blame game and fix the problem by positive, constructive involvement.
----------
Donna?
Yes! Please Do! Let the Home Owners participate! Let them ALL pay attention to what is happening!
But in my little crappy Community (River Landing) in Henderson, Nevada............we only have 5 Meetings per year! And those Meetings are always scheduled at the "Dinner Hour" ~ 5:30 PM to discourage attendance by the Home Owners! If you do attend one? It is hard to hear just what is being said, and if you do want to speak? You are limited to just TWO MINUTES!
INSTEAD? Why not let the Home Owners: "Have A Say in Their HOA" - 24/7 - 365 days a year! Using the INTERNET! From the convenience of their Home Computer!
Yes! In effect? Going from just 5 or 6 Old Stodgy Board Members with an "agenda" to having possibly dozens or 100's of 'Board Members' who get to VOTE on all Issues concerning their Community?
YOU never need very many home owners to actually participate! BUT! You really should ALLOW it that ALL home owners CAN participate using the Internet if they choose to do so! Where ALL issues would be IN WRITING and the Home Owner can submit his Comments - in writing - after editing his comments as often as he/she likes before hitting the 'submit' button!
If this was done all over the Country? I dare say HOA corruption would be a fraction of what it currently is!
And those particular Communities who incorporate using the INTERNET in this way? Those Communities would be safer and nicer than most any other run the 'OLD WAY'! Those particular Communities could be brought together in a way never done before!
Sam Judie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,046
Posts: 21,046
Posted:
Sam,
All an Association is provide the option. My Association has a website with a forum section. There are a whole 3 members registered on that forum. The website is advertised in every issue of our newsletter and referenced at all general membership meetings. The site includes minutes, governing documents and links to State/Federal documents.
I know for a fact, because I am currently administrator of the site, that we get more traffic from real estate agents and contractors wanting to provide services to us then traffic from our own Association.
The point I am trying to make is please don't think that the internet is going to be the answer to membership apathy. Typically, from my experience, membership involvement increases only when there is a controversial issue (usually with money involved) and quickly wanes once the issue is decided one way or the other.
A website is certainly a plus for any Association. However, I believe most people would still prefer watching something on you-tube then reading about what is happening within the Association.
However, an option should still be there.
BTW, our website is also how our Association is complying with VA law which says:
§ 55-510.2. Distribution of information by members.
The board of directors shall establish a reasonable, effective, and free method, appropriate to the size and nature of the association, for lot owners to communicate among themselves and with the board of directors regarding any matter concerning the association.
Tim
All an Association is provide the option. My Association has a website with a forum section. There are a whole 3 members registered on that forum. The website is advertised in every issue of our newsletter and referenced at all general membership meetings. The site includes minutes, governing documents and links to State/Federal documents.
I know for a fact, because I am currently administrator of the site, that we get more traffic from real estate agents and contractors wanting to provide services to us then traffic from our own Association.
The point I am trying to make is please don't think that the internet is going to be the answer to membership apathy. Typically, from my experience, membership involvement increases only when there is a controversial issue (usually with money involved) and quickly wanes once the issue is decided one way or the other.
A website is certainly a plus for any Association. However, I believe most people would still prefer watching something on you-tube then reading about what is happening within the Association.
However, an option should still be there.
BTW, our website is also how our Association is complying with VA law which says:
§ 55-510.2. Distribution of information by members.
The board of directors shall establish a reasonable, effective, and free method, appropriate to the size and nature of the association, for lot owners to communicate among themselves and with the board of directors regarding any matter concerning the association.
Tim
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,046
Posts: 21,046
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 12/28/2010 11:23 AM
Sam,
All an Association is provide the option.
Sam,
All an Association is provide the option.
Sorry. Should have read, All an Association can do is provide the option.
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