💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Don't know how many of you read the news feeds. But it would appear that La Palma CA is looking at placing an ordinance restricting what color residents can paint their homes.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/color-palma-city-2137507-want-home
(And to think that some people hate HOA's having such power.)

Personally, even though I live in an HOA and serve on the BOD thereof I would be very opposed to a city level decision on acceptable colors. It just seems wrong to move to that level. Next we could see states deciding on what color is acceptable to paint your house. And while I like that my neighbor can't paint his house purple, I don't believe I should have any input on the guy in another neighborhood.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
In historic districts, restrictions on paint colors are quite common, even though there is no homeowners association or governing board.

I suppose it is just like whether or not your neighbors like your automobile parked in your driveway.

In my mind, people are too easily offended in our society.

By the way did you read the New York Times article:

    If you live in a subdivision, condominium or co-op, it’s more than likely you’re part of a homeowners association (HOA). Used to be HOA focused on rather straightforward issues, like maintenance and repairs or landscaping of common areas. But they’ve expanded significantly since the mid-‘60s and not necessarily for the good. With their original intent clouded with the emergence of things like “architectural control committees,” they’ve become, as one recent study suggests, “annoying” or worse to two-thirds of 3,000 people surveyed. Some 54 percent said they’d rather live with a “sloppy neighbor” than deal with an HOA.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
Historic areas is not what the article is talking about. There is a difference between owning a car that someone dislikes and painting a house a color that is out of character with the rest of the neighborhood. Yes people are too easily offended but that generalization does not negate that some house colors are downright ugly and detract from the value of the house and thereby may affect the value of a community. For example, a buyer may like a house except for the fact that the house will need $10,000 in paint to accommodate the buyer's taste. If that $10,000 is negotiated off the sale price, the house if used in a real estate comparison may contribute towards a lower value of the community. I still say live and let live but can see how owners may not be happy about poor color choice.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
I agree with Kirk that this sort of restriction doesn't belong at the city level. We often say in this forum that if you don't like the restrictions of a neighborhood, then don't move into that neighborhood. That gets a little harder to say when we are talking about an entire city.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Both Mackinac City and Traverse City, Michigan starting looking like Las Vegas some time ago with neon colored restaurants, complete with trim painted another shade of neon, blinking lights and mis-matched styles. Mackinac, especially, got real sleazy looking. Somehow, the merchants got together and approved a "look" - they wanted to have for the city. Today, Mackinac looks like an antique fishing town. Much more pleasing to the eye. I think Traverse City passed an ordinance. I'll check up on it.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
One of the biggest problems with HOAs today is that people don't understand what they are buying into. It is interesting that most people don't seem to really check out their largest single purchase.

And honestly, the whole thing has some down side in that you do give up some rights. The hard part is that extent seems very unpredictable. I would support a concept where covenants could not be substantially strengthened without approval of every single owner. The very idea of encumbering another person's property is quite problematic to me. I did choose to purchase my home with covenants. But we see people who chose to purchase where there isn't the HOA and covenants facing them being made mandatory.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KirkW1 on 08/27/2008 1:24 PM
One of the biggest problems with HOAs today is that people don't understand what they are buying into. It is interesting that most people don't seem to really check out their largest single purchase.


Kirk I believe in addition to the signs that mark the beginning of most HOA's there should also be a prominent sign declaring that it is a Covenant controlled community with information on how to view the Covenants. We constantly talk here about legislation to protect Homeowners. I believe the singe greatest piece of legislation for all states would be something like Florida's 720.401 which requires the H/O to be notified prior to closing of the existence of a HOA and the existence of Covenants that they will be bound to. Although I would add one thing to it, that any verbal statements of the seller or agent are non-binding unless included in the contract.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanW1 on 08/27/2008 12:59 PM
Both Mackinac City and Traverse City, Michigan starting looking like Las Vegas some time ago with neon colored restaurants, complete with trim painted another shade of neon, blinking lights and mis-matched styles. Mackinac, especially, got real sleazy looking. Somehow, the merchants got together and approved a "look" - they wanted to have for the city. Today, Mackinac looks like an antique fishing town. Much more pleasing to the eye. I think Traverse City passed an ordinance. I'll check up on it.


I think that's much different than passing a city ordinance regulating the paint colors for homes. Many cities have ordinances pertaining to businesses that are not passed on to residences. Here in Glendale there is a historic area in downtown. Certain requirements are made of the businesses that line the main street so that all will conform to the "look" that the city planners have developed for that area.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 08/27/2008 3:32 PM


Kirk I believe in addition to the signs that mark the beginning of most HOA's there should also be a prominent sign declaring that it is a Covenant controlled community with information on how to view the Covenants. We constantly talk here about legislation to protect Homeowners. I believe the singe greatest piece of legislation for all states would be something like Florida's 720.401 which requires the H/O to be notified prior to closing of the existence of a HOA and the existence of Covenants that they will be bound to. Although I would add one thing to it, that any verbal statements of the seller or agent are non-binding unless included in the contract.

Glen,

AZ also has a requirement that the assn provide certain disclosure docs to a potential buyer. Also required is a statement stating, among other things:

"I hereby acknowledge that the declaration, bylaws and rules of the assn constitute a contract between the assn and me (the purchaser). By signing this statement, I acknowledge that I have read and understand the assn's contract with me (the purchaser). I also understand that as a matter of AZ law, if I fail to pay my asn assessments, the assn may foreclose on my property." The statement shall include a signature line for the purchaser and shall be returned tot eh assn w/i 14 calendar days. This statute also relieves the real estate salesperson from any disclosure requirements.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
To be honest, I don't think notification at closing is good enough. I think there should be an acknowledgment of the HOA's existence at the time of an offer (or contract for sale for new homes).

In my case, I read through the documents between putting a check down to hold the property and entering a contract for sale. And my salesperson did tell people right up front. And upon signing the contract for sale I received a copy of the documents. But I am the exception.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kirk,

The disclosure info I posted is required, by AZ law, to be provided to a potential buyer -- note potential buyer --. W/i 10 days of receipt of a notice of a pending sale, the assn must provide the disclosure info. It is not supposed to be given at closing!
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KirkW1 on 08/29/2008 7:48 PM
To be honest, I don't think notification at closing is good enough. I think there should be an acknowledgment of the HOA's existence at the time of an offer (or contract for sale for new homes).

In my case, I read through the documents between putting a check down to hold the property and entering a contract for sale. And my salesperson did tell people right up front. And upon signing the contract for sale I received a copy of the documents. But I am the exception.
Since we are once again way off topic, let me add a thought.

Somehow, someway we really need to find a way to bring the homeowners association to the closing table. By purchasing a unit, the buyer is entering into a contract with the association. The vast majority of buyers don't understand that.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Although I am aware of the term "adhesion contract" and what it means, I do not regard the CCRs as a contract. To me, they are deed restrictions, plain and simple. Although some courts have referred to them as contracts, when ruling they tend to rule by property law rather than contract law. I think the term contract is used simply because it's easier to understand the meaning. In a sense the CCRs may be regarded as a contract, but legally speaking I don't believe they are. I have had HOA attorney's tell me it is NOT an adhesion contract. So, what type contract is it if you really believe it is a contract?
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
I don't htink it is really a contract either. I didn't sign any contract with my HOA. I signed standard forms for my state acknowledging that ownership entails mandatory membership and the current rate for dues.

I think that people should receive a very short explanation of what a HOA is. Said sheet should cover both the upside and downside of HOA living. On the good, you can be reasonably sure that the house next to you won't be turned into an iridescent purple shrine with neon green accent. On the down side, you have to ask permission to rip out your bushes.

Now I have to go erect my flag pole. But really my HOA does allows a single flag pole not to exceed 20 feet. We are patriotic in Texas.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 08/30/2008 1:55 PM
In a sense the CCRs may be regarded as a contract, but legally speaking I don't believe they are. I have had HOA attorney's tell me it is NOT an adhesion contract. So, what type contract is it if you really believe it is a contract?
Unfortunately, what one believes to be the case, and what is actually true is not always the same. State courts have different approaches. Blanket statements are not always wise.

In Hoosierland, declarations are determined to be binding contracts under rules of adjudication set by the Court of Appeals. They are interpreted under usual and customary contract law with some modifications to favor individual property rights.
    Because covenants are a form of express contract, we apply the same rules of construction. Renfro v. McGuyer, 799 N.E.2d 544, 547 (Ind. Ct. App. 2003), trans. denied. Construction of the terms of a written contract is a pure question of law for the court and we conduct a de novo review of the trial court’s conclusions in that regard. Grandview, 754 N.E.2d at 557.

    Indiana law permits restrictive covenants but finds them disfavored and justified only to the extent they are unambiguous and enforcement is not adverse to public policy. Holliday v. Crooked Creek Villages Homeowners Assoc., Inc., 759 N.E.2d 1088, 1092 (Ind. Ct. App. 2001). When courts are alled upon to interpret restrictive covenants, they are to be strictly construed, and all doubts should be resolved in favor of the free use of property and against restrictions. Renfro, 799 N.E.2d at 547. The covenanting parties’ intent must be determined from the specific language used and from the situation of the parties when the covenant was made. Mayer, 830 N.E.2d at 979. Specific words and phrases cannot be read exclusive of other contractual provisions. Id. In addition, the parties’ intentions must be determined from the contract read in its entirety. Id. We attempt to construe contractual provisions so as to harmonize the agreement, id., and so as not to render any terms ineffective or meaningless, City of Lawrenceburg v. Milestone Contractors, L.P., 809 N.E.2d 879, 883 (Ind. Ct. App. 2004), trans. denied.
http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/11170605ewn.pdf
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:

An "express contract" with no allowance for negotiation? In Hoosierland, is an express contract the same as an adhesion contract? Are HOA members required by law to be informed they are entering into an adhesion contract; a contract they are agreeing to by virtue of purchasing their home but not a contact that they have the opportunity to negotiate the terms of?

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Mary,

If a purchaser buys into an HOA, I don't believe they can cherrypick which parts of the docs they accept - it's all or nothing, yes? The docs become part of the sale contract by reference, assuming the docs ARE referenced. If they are not, that's a different can of worms.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
I thought La Palma was a CITY.

???
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnK3 on 08/31/2008 9:34 AM
Mary,

If a purchaser buys into an HOA, I don't believe they can cherrypick which parts of the docs they accept - it's all or nothing, yes? The docs become part of the sale contract by reference, assuming the docs ARE referenced. If they are not, that's a different can of worms.

John,

You're right, they cannot. Which is why I'm asking George if the courts in IN are calling this "contract" an adhesion contract. I'm not certain that an "express contract" can be negotiated. If it can, and if this is what George is calling our CCRs, then why don't we have the opportunity to negotiate? My personal opinion is that the CCRs are NOT a contract, they are deed restrictions (real covenants).

I've heard from may sources in the legal profession that the CCRs are NOT an adhesion contract. However, I am aware that some judge, attorneys, etc. do refer to them in this manner -- well mostly they say "contract" not specifically "adhesion contract". I'm sure you know what an adhesion contract is. I've also been told by many HOA attorneys that most of the rulings are really based on property law and not contract law, even though the judge may call the CCRs a contract. George tells me I shouldn't make blanket statements; but I don't feel that is what I've done. I've heard this from quite a few attorneys and I would think they know what they're talking about. I know not all states have the same laws but I do think judges look at case law in other jurisdictions when making their ruling.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 08/30/2008 2:49 AM

By purchasing a unit, the buyer is entering into a contract with the association. The vast majority of buyers don't understand that.

George,

Perhaps the reason is because they didn't have the opportunity to negotiate. Since you strongly feel the CCRs are a contract, what type contract is it? I've been told by a number of HOA attorneys it is NOT an adhesion contract. You mentioned an "express contract". Can the parties involved negotiate an express contract? If so, and if this is what the CCRs are, then why is there no opportunity for the h/o to negotiate? But, most importantly, if the CCRS are in fact a legal contract, why aren't potential buyers told this?
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Mary,

IMO, what we call a contract/agreement isn't the big issue; what the contract/agreement contains is. My understanding is that an express contract means no more than an "expression" of what the parties have agreed to. Adhesion aka Boilerplates do the same, although tend to favor the rights of one party over another. In all three cases, the parties have to agree or there is no contract.

In the case of HOA docs, they tend to favor the HOA so it can operate under an "expressed" set of rules and guidelines. This is a good thing for the HOA and hopefully for the purchasers who should benefit from order and enforcement.

We could call the HOA docs "Our Happy Face Rules" but they are not and should not be subject to negotiation by an individual purchaser as the result could lead to anarchy, which is a bad thing for an HOA. If individual purchasers want something(s) changed, the docs probably provided a method to pursue those changes - changes that will aply to all members, not just them.

If a potential purchaser does not want to be bound by the docs (known by any monicker), they can simply refuse to buy and go elsewhere.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
    " Since you strongly feel the CCRs are a contract, what type contract is it? I've been told by a number of HOA attorneys it is NOT an adhesion contract. You mentioned an "express contract". Can the parties involved negotiate an express contract? If so, and if this is what the CCRs are, then why is there no opportunity for the h/o to negotiate? But, most importantly, if the CCRS are in fact a legal contract, why aren't potential buyers told this?


Mary,

This is not about what I think or "feel." It is about what the court sets forth as case law.

And the Indiana Appeals Court has said that a declaration of covenants is "a form of express contract" (as I quoted with citation). My "feelings" -- and even what I think about it -- are utterly immaterial in this instance. The court has decided. Period.

I would think that if the Appeals Court found that covenants were a form of adhesion contract, they would have so stated. But they did not.

I think you may be misconstruing the notion of an "express contract." It need not be subject to negotiation.

In an express contract there is an offer, acceptance and consideration. Negotiation is not necessarily a required part of the process. In an express contract all the key contractual elements are specifically stated, not implied by circumstances.

An express contract and adhesion contract are not mutually exclusive in contract law. An express contract can also be an adhesion contract.

So when the court speaks, stating that a declaration of covenants is "a form of express contract" the matter is largely settled.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 09/01/2008 10:06 AM
    " Since you strongly feel the CCRs are a contract, what type contract is it? I've been told by a number of HOA attorneys it is NOT an adhesion contract. You mentioned an "express contract". Can the parties involved negotiate an express contract? If so, and if this is what the CCRs are, then why is there no opportunity for the h/o to negotiate? But, most importantly, if the CCRS are in fact a legal contract, why aren't potential buyers told this?


Mary,

This is not about what I think or "feel." It is about what the court sets forth as case law.

And the Indiana Appeals Court has said that a declaration of covenants is "a form of express contract" (as I quoted with citation). My "feelings" -- and even what I think about it -- are utterly immaterial in this instance. The court has decided. Period.

I would think that if the Appeals Court found that covenants were a form of adhesion contract, they would have so stated. But they did not.

I think you may be misconstruing the notion of an "express contract." It need not be subject to negotiation.

In an express contract there is an offer, acceptance and consideration. Negotiation is not necessarily a required part of the process. In an express contract all the key contractual elements are specifically stated, not implied by circumstances.

An express contract and adhesion contract are not mutually exclusive in contract law. An express contract can also be an adhesion contract.

So when the court speaks, stating that a declaration of covenants is "a form of express contract" the matter is largely settled.

George,

I understood you to say the court had ruled the CCRs were a contract. I missed the fact they were explicit in saying "express contract". I find this ruling very interesting. From what I read I thought an express contract can also be an adhesion contract. If the IN courts have ruled this way then, as you say, that's the way it is, unless of course the St. Supreme Court were to overrule.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Kirk to get back to your original topic, while it is unusual in my experience for a city not in a historical district to mandate paint colors; cities often get in on the "HOA action". For instance the city I lived in growing up would send a notice if the grass got too tall, you couldn't have a fence or hedge in your front yard and if you wanted to build an addition to your house you had to ask their permission first. Oh, and you couldn't park your car in the front yard or a semi in your driveway.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
I think it is the other way around. Cities have long been involved in issues such as long grass and weeds, and making rules about fences.

For instances, in my city a car that is on open display to a public street (in a drive way or on private property) must be properly licensed and operable. The law keeps junk cars from being collected on the front lawn.

Homeowners associations are muscling control away from government, creating private psuedo-governments, often without adequate safeguards such as separation of powers and effective right of appeal.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 09/02/2008 11:42 PM

Homeowners associations are muscling control away from government, creating private psuedo-governments, often without adequate safeguards such as separation of powers and effective right of appeal.


George, I don't know if it's so much HOA's "muscling control" away from the government as it is government outsourcing their duties to a private enterprise. Often, especially in highly developed areas the controlling government entity will not allow a development to be built without an HOA.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
I think you are right on that. But why?
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 09/03/2008 1:06 AM
I think you are right on that. But why?
I wonder if it is a realization (finally), either consciously or unconsciously, that most new residential growth and development costs more in public services and infrastructure that it returns in tax revenues.

I don't know of an instance in which tax rates have actually decreased because a new residential development increased the tax base.

Nevertheless, replacing constitutional government with private contractual psuedo-government has elements that are both attractive and profoundly disturbing.
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
A few comments,

The ServiceMaster survey quoted in the NY Times was done on their web site, sort of a "click here" whether you're happy or not. Not random, not scientific. Like it or not, CAI's survey was a least done independently, with a random selection of owners. Yeah I know, write the questions correctly and you can get the survey to say anything you want it to. But I don't think that their basic 73% are "relatively satisfied" was wrong. Yes you have angry owners, but they rarely make up the majority of owners in an association, and when they do, things eventually get changed. The problem is, and always has been, that you only hear from, or about, the angry ones. Content owners don't call the local news media. In our state, the number of issues that arise, or go to court, is miniscule, in comparison to the number of owners in associations. Even if you take all of the posts here, on AHRC or complaints to the various ombudsmen and courts, the number would be a minor percentage of the total owners in community associations. Doesn't mean it can't be done better, just that we've only been doing this for a relatively short period of time and are still trying to figure it out.

Also, homeowners haven't brought about the change to HOA's. The major impetus for this change began in the late 80' and early 90's, when citizens in many states began capping property tax increases, when home assessments began to boom. Municipalities began to scramble and developers found the pot of gold. They could get significantly increased densities in return for creating HOA's that would pay taxes at the same level, but have lower demand on services. In addition, the cities could unload "protected areas" such as wetlands, which they normally would be responsible for looking after, could now be called "common area" and its upkeep, or responsibility for, would move to the HOA. It was a win-win for the people who develop properties and for the people who approve those developments. Until there is a major change in people's thinking about local taxes, HOA's will continue to dominate development.

Since they are unlikely to go away, we need reasonable, rational, cost-effective ways to help them run well.

Joe

Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net

*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Truer words have not been spoken!
    "Also, homeowners haven't brought about the change to HOA's. The major impetus for this change began in the late 80' and early 90's, when citizens in many states began capping property tax increases, when home assessments began to boom. Municipalities began to scramble and developers found the pot of gold. They could get significantly increased densities in return for creating HOA's that would pay taxes at the same level, but have lower demand on services. In addition, the cities could unload "protected areas" such as wetlands, which they normally would be responsible for looking after, could now be called "common area" and its upkeep, or responsibility for, would move to the HOA. It was a win-win for the people who develop properties and for the people who approve those developments. Until there is a major change in people's thinking about local taxes, HOA's will continue to dominate development. "
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
I can tell you that the number one complaint in my neighborhood is lack of information. Nobody knows where the money goes. I am always happy to tell people. And we are starting to spend more of the money. It does occur to me that I should write an article for the next newsletter on where the money goes.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Kirk I did that a couple of years ago and it was very well received. I explained what % went to Reserves and explained why we had to have them, what % went to the MC, utilities, maintenance etc. I got a lot of positive feed back from the H/O's who knew what they were paying but didn't understand all that was involved.

Also when we send out the annual budget instead of a simple line item and amount we include a short paragraph of some of the things involved with it. Instead of Pool $12,000 it's Pool $12,000 which includes the cost to open and close the pool, the cost for a professional pool company to maintain the chemical balance in the pool twice a day per County Health Regulations and the cost of chemicals.

When the information is out there for all to see it makes it harder for the 2-3% who try to stir up trouble, just as a form of amusement. It's hard to say the BOD is misusing funds when it is there for everyone to see. We also pass out updated financials, everything the BOD gets except the names of delinquent H/O's to people who attend the monthly BOD meetings.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here