Complaint to DBPR- long

OK, folks, I really need some advice here. Most may know from my past post that I have had much trouble w/both the Board President and the PM. There has been so many things done wrong (against CC&R's/SS)and has brought much harm financially to our community. I have been labeled a "trouble maker", only because I want the CC&R's and the FL. State Statues followed or changed by a majority HO vote....I only was voted back to the Board March 31/08 and have already received 2 e-mails from the President telling me she was going to have me removed from the Board (which she can not)I will not go into all the laws/rules/policy that have not been followed. Most of you have probably read my post.

Well, yesterday I looked up our PM and found she has no CAM license but that she had a license pending. (she has been our PM since Oct.15/07) The owner of her Real Estate Co does hold a CAM license. So I then called the DBPR and was told that she could NOT function as a PM w/o this license. Someone on this site had posted a question about this. There was a reply stating that perhaps our "PM" could piggy back on the MC's license. Or perhaps work as a PM while license is pending....I was told absolutely, she could not do either. I was told I should send in a complaint. (form found on their site)

I did this today. So did several HO's file a complaint also. Under complaint I listed all the things that she has done wrong, which were many. (Posted before)I also ask if the HOA could be releasted from the three(3) months pay out cancellation placed in their contract. Plus it also says that they (MC) can hold our funds for 90 days after termination. How could the HOA meet expenses if this is done?....Now my question to you,is.."should I give all this information I have retrived and the complaint filing, to the Board and the "PM"?..Some HO's said I should and some said no, not to.....either way I'm sure I will get another e-mail from the President telling me she will have me removed from the Board again once she finds out.

SidneyP,
Lets go back to basics. If you are right, you have a PM running your organization outside the law because she has no CAM License. Fact 1?

Next you say you have a President of the Board telling you she is going to remove you from the board. Fact 2?

You and several others have filed a complaint to DBPR. Fact 3?

You were recently voted to the board on March 31, 2008. Fact 4.?

You have a lot of baggage you want to bring into your complaint that is irrelevant at this time. I doubt this DBPR is going to ajudicate your complaints. Not fact!

What you have been called or how you have been judged by who ever is dressing you down, at this time is not relevant. Not fact.

Now I think you want to know what to do now to put these people in their place. Not fact either but my guess.

I have seen nothing in your post to indicate you have any plan to make things better if you do get what you want. Suppose you get rid of the PM? What then? Do you have a plan?

You need good solid support to back this board dowm, especially the President if she is the person you discribe. She can not remove you unless she has a super majority of the owners, as long as you don't commit a crime. She knows that, if not show her in your documents in an open Board Meeting. If she tries to discredit you at an open meeting, get your supporters at that meeting and tell them to demand that she show evidence of her complaints. You are probably going to have a contentious time for a while. You erred if you did not bring all this up at a Board Meeting and have it all placed in your minutes, you need a paper trail.

I think you have succeeded in getting the regime in chaos, if that was your point. But, I would have a different view if I thought you can do better than what you have, as bad as it is. What are you going to offer the members? How are you going to provide this? All legitimate questions.

How about the other Board members? You don't mention them? You are going to need someone to steer the ship, can you and your supporters do it?

Last, I see you have a problem, I see the one problem is the President making ridiculous statements and maybe even speaks dangerously for herself. You have a PM that is not qualifed. The Board can replace her, or the members of the association can. Is it time to go to war, all I can say is be prepared and don't do it alone, or you will lose the war.

ive all this some thoought, some of this is repetitive, because it is important you think about it more than once.

Sidney,

I would request under #720.303(4)(REQUESTING OFFICIAL RECORDS) for a copy of the property Mangers Cam Lic, now it must be produced or a reply to you in writing within 10 days, if not you will start receiving $50.00 a day for ten 10 days and then resubmit again. If they reply stating your Property Mangers does not have a Cam License now you have it in writing, now submit your complaint in writing on DBPR 0070 -Uniform Complaint Form, State of Florida, Department of Businerss and Professional Regulation.You can also go to www.myfloridalicense.com or www.myflroida.com and go to community association manager and download the complaint form. Make your complaint to DBPR and let them investigate your complaint (They will). Also under #720.303 request in writing to revue your communities contract with your maintenace company that managing your association to see if they even have a corporate Cam License, by the way which does not authorize them to have a Peoperty Manager working for them and respresenting them and working as a Property Manager its clearly a violation of Florida Law (DBPR)

You should not feel guilty for anything, your Board and President are violating their fudiciary Responsibilities to their community - you are not. For them to just attempt to remove you for doing your do diligence as a board member would become a CIVIL matter under the law and you would win and anyone court of law. What is your Board attempting to hide?? You should suggest as a Board member to self manage your own community, hire someone qualified with a Cam License to run it and save money, why pay the monies to a company to manage your community when you can do it yourself?? - I hope I have help good luck

I'm really torn on whether you should say anything to the board on your findings and your complaint filing.

The board member in me feels that, as a board member, I'm responsible to bring problems to the attention of the board, especially such a serious problem that would financially impact the HOA.

My "self-protection" instinct tells me to simply let the DBPR handle things from this point out.

It might help if I knew what DBPR actually stood for.

What happens once they receive a complaint?

Can you be absolutely sure that other residents have reported the same thing to them?

Robert-...I have already sent the complaint in, I did that today. I have a copy of the so called "PM license PENDING" I pulled from the DBPR files and I believe I did state that the MC she works for does have a CAM license in the owners name. Yes, I was told to the woman I spoke with that the "PM" could only work under her own lincense not anyone elses....The former treasurer found and brought me a letter from the MC that called the lady a PM, which in it self is a false statement.

As far as the name calling, that is fact because I have it all on e-mail. As far a the "PM" shaking her finger in my face, there was only herself and I in the office. I have sent a copy of a letter I sent to the "PM" and the board also the her MC (employer)..She has never denyed do this to me.

About my plan for the HOA...I would like to self manage, there are a few good HO's willing to help. Problem is we can't get rid of this Presidnet and as I have stated many times, she has hand picked every Board member but me. In fact I have tried to volunteer for over a year and she refused to let me on the Board....I wanted to self manage last year when I found out what this President/Board/PM had done financially to the community....I had stated that the situation couldn't get any worse, if it didn't work, we could always get another MC. I tried to tell what HO's that would listen and explain to them that we could get out of the red. At this time, if we self manage, we can still do alot w/the money saved but still not be able to Fund the Reserves that have not been funded since Apr./07...but we can start funding again.

Our doc's ask for an audit to be done yearly, I have ask many times for this to be done. At the last meeting July14th, they (NOT ME) voted to hire an attorney to see if we really need an audit (they say it cost to much-I found a CPA that would do the last 2 1/2 years for $5,000.)The attorney answered w/no we did not need need an audit because our Budget is less than $100,000. But this new SS said for HOA's formed after(a certain year), can't find it right now, but is was a several years after our docs were filed. And besides that, the SS also says "unless the governing documents provide otherwise. I am not an attorney but I would read that as meaning that we need a yearly audit or have the doc amended. They just don't want an audit.

Once again, old trouble maker Sidney is at it again...Everything I have ever stated I can substantiate with e-mails. I have told this President over and over, if you can point out one thing I have lied about, please let me know...She has never responded, because everything is true.

My question was still never answered....Sould I e-mail the Board/"PM"/MC-owner and tell them that I have found out the "PM" does not have a CAM license and that I have sent in a complaint? Or should I just sit back and wait for them to hear from the DBPR?...Please help me out here.(Robert the $50. a day sounds good but I want to bring no harm to the HO's or the community)

Sidney P,

I would file all paper work with the DBPR,and let them handle all the admintrative investigation and when completed and if you have not reached a finality with your remaining Board and President of the Board, file for Arbitration or Mediation. I hope when you filed you informed DBPR that an Audit has not been done since 2007 and your President and attorney have stated you don't need one even though it states in your DOC's you should have a yearly accounting, now I can see why your community is in such distress.

What Bank do you have, what accounts do you have, is your money in Ceders, what intetrest are you making annually, are you a 301 not for profit organization?? Is your Board comingling the monies to pay for all?? Monies have to be put into every reserve you have even its only a $1.00 yearly, these are topiv cs DBPR should know and what is and is not being done. _ good luck, Let it be handled by the proper authorities - don't get sick over this - Keep all documentation as you have been doing, a paper trail is the best to have to protect you now and in the future. You have no idea what they will accuse you of in the future protect your rear.

Sidney,
Finally, some meat to the matter.
You have four members supporting you and willing to work. That is where you start, not off somewhere trying to prove everyone wrong and irresponsible. What good is that going to do at this time. They can all stand up in the pulpit and announce to the world they are the worse people in the world for the job, and who cares beside you and four others.

Look, I can tell you what I know works and it don't work over night, it will work in the long run. It will not work the way you want it because if it did, the four of you would be doing the exact same thing you accuse them of. Have you all ever discussed this? You should stop spinning around and get some direction and get moving. YOU NEED MORE HELP. Go get it. Newsletters are fine, but they are one way copmmunications and you end up with no paper trail. OPEN A WEB SITE, don't anyone read any of the archives on this site. All your complaints, however justified, however painful, cannot not allow you to not see the forest for the trees. Your goal and rightfully so is "change for the better". It will be a little at a time, but it will be change. IF all you say is true, what do you think your adversaries are thinking? " We can't have change", is uppermost in their mind. You make enough sense and enough noise and you don't need a lot of noise, but if you hold the flashlight and you hold wherewithall to shine that light under the rocks, things will change. Also get over thinking no one knows how bad it is, that is just not true. Up to now, you are telling us you have failed. Then change how you are doing the job.
You need some organization, you have to have it, maybe you four or five can't get it together, so get others involved. you must.
Use your web site not as a anti board or management bashing machine, use it as machine to make a better community and convince your supporters their goal and their obligation is not against whoever, it is to do the job you signed on to do when you bought there. Protect and better the association (the real property), the matter that ties you all together, whether Condo or HOA. There are plenty of Management companies that understand this, at some point you may want to consider using them. they will be working for you as your manager should be working for you.

You can find all kinds of answers here on the day to day stuff, use this site to it's fullest, get knowledgeable.

Michele.....

DBPR stands for the Department of Business and Professional Regulation.they over see licensing.

"What happens once they receive a complaint"....investagate...and what they do next I have no idea.

"Can you be absolutely sure that others have reported a complaint"
We met at McDonalds yesterday, I had my packet w/me to be mailed, the former treasurer said hers had already gone out in the mail from work. The complaint form wa given to two other that were there, who said they would fill them out and mail them today....Now I certainly can't say what they said was true. I didn't watch them being dropped in the mail shoot. All I can do is believe what they have said...I do know they want this community to get back on it's feet and to be healthy financially.

Like you said, being a Board member I feel I need to inform them about the information I have found and what I have done.

On the other hand I have been treated so disrespectfully by them and know this will happen again when told this information. What I would really like is to tell this "PM" face to face, not hide behind a computer. But I refuse to go to her office again after the way I was treated, shaking her finger in my face and ushering me out the door. I wasn't even there to see her, I am the treasurer and was there to pick up and go over the financials w/the bookkeeper. The poor bookkeeper left the room and never did come back....

On the other hand, I am not told anything about what the rest of them do or plan to do. It was the President and the "PM" that arranged a consultation w/a new attorney. This happened on the 24th of June. I don't know if the other Board members were informed but I never was, until our meeting July 14th....We have already been using another attorney, why did we need another?...I had no idea the President/"PM" planned to fire our landscaper (this is the 7/8th she has let go) until the meeting...It's funny, but all new hiring is of the "PM's" choice...the new attorney (cost more), the new landscaper (cost more) and the "PM" was using her maintenance man until I requested his lincese and his proof of insurance, which I never received. She told me, he was sick and wouldn't be working anymore...lol. Now the President and the "PM" are using tentants to do repairs, which are not licensed or insured....A HO called and told me this or I would never have known....This is placing the community at a greater rick of being sued. Especially in today world, every body is looking for someone to sue.

Guess I will spend the day trying to decide what is best for me. As always, I do appreciate all the advice and information I receive from this site.

Sidney, two things:

First, outstanding that you have such excellent support from people willing to step up and go on the record. That's very rare and an excellent buttress for you.

Second, I completely understand your ethical dilemma regarding "do I tell; do I not tell."

But, here's a couple things you need to take off your "reasons" list:

(again, as I said to another poster, this is NOT a personal attack nor is it a personal criticism of some kind of character flaw: it's just an observation and an acknowledgment of common human reactions)

The fact that you have been treated "disrespectfully" is a shame, but should not be a factor in your decision. It's the easy way out to try to give Karma a little bit of a "shove" or "nudge," but that should not be one's reason for reporting clear and flagrant unethical and potentially illegal activities.

Also, using the excuse that "well, they don't tell me things," in and of itself is not really a good one, either. You wouldn't want to stoop to their levels when you already know, according to your own ethical standards, that what they are doing is inappropriate, unethical, and, again, possibly illegal.

As I said, it's human nature to want to include those reasons in making a decision on what to do or not to do, just bear in mind that there are plenty of other, perfectly ethical and legitimate reasons and justifications for making the hard decisions you have to make without having to throw those into the mix and dilute your own ethics in the process.

For example, it's very reasonable to withhold the information from them if you fear retribution, especially if that retribution takes the shape of harassment, expulsion from the board (which they really can't do, but will probably try to do anyway), character assassination throughout the community and much more.

I can see every reason to play that card close to the chest if that sort of reaction is a very real possibility.

Another very legitimate reason to not let them know what you or the others are doing (or have done) regarding this PM is that you don't want to, at this point, risk compromising the investigation that the DBPR may be starting. By letting them know that this investigation officially been triggered, there is no telling what sort of cover up they might then begin to engage in.

I guess in the end, I've sorted through my own dilemma regarding what I would do in your case.

It's clear I would not let them know of the impending investigation, not let them know that I know the PM is operating illegally (without a license), and not let them know that others in the community have made their formal complaints as well.

I probably would keep a list of all the details I knew about what the president and PM have been doing (such as the one you enumerated above regarding the firings and hirings), and I would probably also be grooming some of my fellow homeowners to be ready to run for board positions to stage a sort of HOA coup.

Good luck to you. You've put a lot of time and effort, and had to swallow a lot of crap in the process, to doing what's right for your community.

Remember, and this is my mantra, don't get caught up in penny-ante stuff; keep your priorities large and in sight. Don't lose focus.

Keep us posted.

I've very keen to find out what the DBPR investigation turns up.

SusanW1-

Do I trust attorneys....NO...and you can go to several different attorney's and each will finad a different interpertation.

The MC does hand out the annual financial report BUT to only the few members that attend the meeting. May6/7 plus spouse..they count both spouses as HO's which will give them a quorum. But to my knowledge they have never sent the financials out. I don't feel we need a audit every year as our docs say but it going on seven years and with the taking of money from the Reserves to pay bills and then putting some back...it would take someone with a little knowledge and lots of spare time to figure it all out.

I even found a check from our account written to another HOA...when I found this and ask, I was then told "Oh! that was a mistake"...it took them two weeks to find the error. How many more may their be?

SidneyP,
Beenm said before.

Put up a web site, try and make i9t a Association web site, if not do iut personally. m Bare bones stuff, as suggested before, let a little Sunshine in, get people talking, and when you get a chance, put in a members section with pass words and post your financials. Worked for us to do this, honest. You will probably be surprized with the reactions to a Web Site. Look up some condo/Hoa websites on web. There are some stunners and all are loaded with the stuff you can't find out about.

This is not Flordia law....it is the way our Board does things....I could send you the minutes to prove it....They count the people in attendance....Take the time to read some of my other post and you will see just why our Association is colapsing.

After being called a trouble maker so many times for calling this President on all the laws she is breaking....I ask her to send me one thing I have said that was not true....and to send me all the things she has done positive for the community....need I say, I have never received a reply.

Michelle,

I think that the meeting that Sidney just referred to where the annual financial report was handed out, was a regular Board meeting. There are no quorum requirements for that type of meeting. But counting both of the members from a unit to constitute a quorum is NOT ALLOWED as you well stated.

Sidney, correct me if I am wrong. What type of meeting was that?

Shelley,

Forgive me for changing your gender, I can promise it won't happen again LOL.

In Florida a quorum is one home owner from each lot not all occupants residing at the lot. When we recieve a wrote in writing it states only one person from each Lot will be counted. Thats in our DOCs and it is followed.

Shelley;

Thank You for the Info on voting, our community DOC's only allow 1 per family, nice talking to you again, hope to hear from you soon. Enjoy your facts and knowledge - Have a nice day.

Michelle,

I too have never heard of any lot having more than one vote other than the Developer. The 2 associations that I have my rentals, both require that "The Designated Vote Holder" be listed and have their signature on a form in the offices for references. Might be overkill but with all of the fraud accusations, this seems to work as a deterant to misuse of votes. The designated voter can change any time with just a resigning of the form so it is really no problem to do that.

Good thing I didn't say "never" then! LOL

Susan,
I know not what financial report you refer to, but I can ventute a guess that will be right 90% of the time around here.

The Bod don't publish it.

And the answer to why they don't assert themselves is the same.

They don't publish them.

Who's fault is this, you know the answer.

How about how can they assert themselves and get what the have a right to?

I just bought a new T-shirt today...it says.

"My mind not only wanders, Some times it leaves completely."
Paid $5 for that little jewel. I will wear it on the day after I wear my ."Life Sucks" shirt.

$82K + $170K = over a quarter of a million $$$ for work you apparently don't receive or don't need?

Gotta ask:

1. What is the size of your dues income?
2. Seeing you're giving it away, please stuff a suitcase with unmarked Jacksons, Grants and Franklins, drop me a line, and I'll give you an address to send it to. I promise a Thank-You note will follow!

Nancy,
Are you aware of the" Davis/Stirling Act" whic has regulations for California HOAs? Those are your governing laws for community living associations. The $82,000. seems really high for an Omsbudsman where an attorney on a retainer would seem to be less expensive.