BBQ at the ol condominium

This subject is a hot potato at our place. A condominium ocean side that has a large # of rental (short term, weekly rentals). Somewhere around 50 %.

We have a facility that is and has been desinated "The Bar B Que Area" since 1981 when constructed. Our Rules of conduct stipulate that only the BBQ area will be used for burning the food. The rule is enforced primarily by the few residents that live here full time and an occasional manager decree. Our Board, in their ifinite wisdom voted to suppy and maintain large gas grills (four burners). I was, am and will continue to be oppossed to this prctice, for way too many reason to list here. This spring and summer is the time for recalls to start popping up for faulty grills that have failed the test of usage. This has happened to us. Every grill I have ever seen, when you open the package has a clear warning that these grills, all of the them, should never be left unattended. You can see where all this is headed, My interest is: How do other condominiums handle this serious problem when the Board has decided to expose all the members to the dangers, both rel and imagined. We are cotemplating buying additional gas grills because there have been serious incidents with previous gas grills.
To cut to the point, I can not see how we can provide the apparatus, provide the space, provide the consumable (gas and maintainemce), use the manager to spend his time and our money. In my mind, it borders on insanity to do this, and God knows what liability, if for no other reason, when we place a grills there for public (renter)or for that matter, owner use, or visitor or what have you, and, you cannot and you know you can not insure these grills are attended at all times, as stipulated, to maintain any kind of warranty; are you liable. I say a resounding "yes."

How do other condominiums handle this?

Your Board needs to develop a list of pros and cons for having these grills.

How much are they used? What do the members (residents) think? Is this in your scope of your mission? What is the cost?

I can imagine that the residents will be upset, so I'd tread carefully, here.

No one likes their amentities taken away!

You might want to make a call to the local Fire Marshall and find out if there is some kind of state or local code that the grills are violating. For instance Ohio passed a law prohibiting the use or storage of grills on decks or within 10 feet of combustible construction in any multifamily building larger than a duplex.

I would think that constant exposure to salt air would cause these grills, gas tanks and fittings to deteriorate at an even faster than normal pace, which would require constant replacement. As for requiring constant supervision of the user you do it like any other amenity make the rule and enforce if you find someone violating it. That is unless you want to raise dues and hire the equivalent of a lifeguard for your grill area. Maybe build a nice chair with an umbrella for them to sit and watch over the grills.

Susan,
I see an opening here because Robert said that in the Boards infinite wisdom, they bought and installed these grills. The association had the designated spot for the grills but it sounds like the BOD installed grills. Probably . the residents brought their own grills over to the area. If that be the case, then the Board can remove the Robert?? We need a history here!!

Susan,
My concernis not for how anyone likes or dislike Gas Grills. I am looking for other condominiums that has had the same problems, and surely most must address this issue somehow, what are their rules and how do they enforce the requirement that you agree (in effect) not to leave the lite grills unattended. We have issued rules that state all BBQ will be done in a designated BBQ area. Bad enough with Charcoal, now they have added Gas grills, we have had two serious fire mishaps (no injuries) since the first of the year, and actually had a defective gas grill catch on fire and end up literally burning the metal. No kidding, the stainless was manufactured wrong and the mangesium content was so high in the steel it burnt and consumed the metal. (reports state)The grills have been recalled, incidently the recall was listed with consumer reports, NewsTV stations and Lowes. It was some models called Perfect Flame and is available by Google listed Perfect Flame Gas Grills. No secret there.

I still am trying to run down how do Condominiums handle the BBQ situation. Ir really has nothing to do with us or involve what and how we handle it, I know that.

Same question as before DJ, how does your condo regulate this and enforce the safety requirements.

Brian,
Thank you, and could not agree more. I am not going to you anything about what we do under preventative measures, But I will say if we were on top of the issue(In my opinion) I wouldn;t be writing this. As noted in another post here I have just found out we are supposed to have inherently dangerous areas in our complex. If real this may open a door to include the BBQ area under that designation.

We're not near the ocean but have had a couple of commercial charcoal grills mounted in concrete for about a dozen or more years with no problems.

Wouldn't touch it with a 10' barbeque lighter Robert. Why increase the liability of the Association. Get rid of them or ensure you have PLENTY of insurance and if residents balk then tell em how much the extra liability insurance is gonna cost each home each month.

Robert,

Really? Burn food; not cook it? So, if I leave a pot unattended on my kitchen stove and I burn my food in the kitchen I am in violation?

Sorry Robert, I just saw a little humor in your apparent mis-quote and I just had to have a little fun.

Unfortunately, I can’t give you an opinion based on experience with association-owned grills. Our community consists of single-family homes and we have no central barbecue area. We have an annual community picnic on the clubhouse grounds once a year, but the members bring a few of their own grills and, of course, they are all well attended. I did live in a community that had a BBQ area with association-owned grills, but I don’t remember much about them. So, whether or not having a designated area with association-owned grills is a good idea or not I can’t say. But I think I can provide some food for thought.

1. Cost. As far as cost being an issue, I think that’s a decision for the board and the members. If the board sees fit to include the costs associated with a BBQ area in the budget, and if the homeowners agree to it or don’t object to it, then I see that as a non-issue.

2. Liability. Checking with the fire marshal is a good idea, but what about checking with your insurance company? Does the HOA’s insurance company consider the barbecues an additional risk? Will they cover any claims that arise against the association out of BBQ use? Is there any extra premium involved? Most policies are risk-based and risks are determined by statistics. So, if the insurance company doesn’t consider the association-owned barbecues an additional liability, then the board has no reason to either. That, then, also becomes a non-issue. Keep in mind, too, that a claim could possibly be made against the association arising out of the use of any common area, including the BBQ area, whether the grills are association-owned or privately owned.

Gas grills are not necessarily more dangerous than charcoal grills if they are properly maintained. True, gas is explosive, but so is charcoal lighter fluid. Any portable grill, whether gas or not, can be tipped over unless it is very heavy or fastened in some way. If a user doesn’t follow proper procedure in lighting, either type can blow up in the person’s face.

3. If you decide to supply BBQ grills, consider the following:

A. Don’t leave the grills loose. Make sure they are chained to some solid, fixed object (such a large, heavy block of cement) to prevent them from being stolen. Look at ways to fasten grills so they can't be tipped over.

B. Consider placing a few fire extinguishers in convenient locations.

C. Consider posting conspicuous signs stating users may not leave grills unattended and that they assume all responsibility for any liability arising out of their use. Make sure you’ve posted safety rules for their use and proper lighting procedures. If a user doesn’t follow proper procedure and the grill blows up in his face while trying to light it (which can happen whether it’s a gas grill or not), then at least you’re covered. Signs may not prevent someone from filing a claim against the association, but they may make it more difficult to collect.

D. Establish a procedure for a committee to periodically clean and inspect every grill and remove any that are found to be questionable. Establish a check list for the committee to use for the inspection. Establish repair or replacement criteria. I remove all parts and clean my gas grill periodically, and I have to replace parts (especially burners) every couple of years because they eventually rust or burn out.

E. Consider supplying charcoal grills instead of gas grills. Many state and municipal parks supply charcoal grills for people to use, but not gas grills. Charcoal grills are less costly to replace and require less maintenance. Furthermore, people would be required to supply their own charcoal and charcoal lighter. (And, I’ve heard people say charcoal grilled food tastes better.)

You asked for my opinion. There it is.

To all,
Showdown time is approaching and I need some additional advice, so let me add a few item for stimulation.

The real reason for the grills was as always around here; The rental majority want them to attract rental business, if not totally, then certainly in part. This is a fact. Our management ha s accumulated several small BBQ grills that renters have left behind and placed them in an area that is safe, however, NONE of the grills, charcoal Weber Large, 1 remaining gas grill that a door is falling off, all instructions have faded off and the grates are caked with God knows what. None of these grills are secured to anything. And as I said the Board just voted to buy two new Gas Webers.

I can't see any past justification to continue the practice, but would compromise for two Large Webers Charcoal, no lighter fluid, signed, etc, etc, and chained to the concrete wall. There is plenty of room if folks want to bring their own grills and use them safely. Up off the ground on a large tiled bench, out of reach of kids and even a sink provided. Why do you think our Board is being so blind to this reality.
I would even appreciate someone telling me I am full of crap and being unreasonable.

MikeS,
Thanks for the comments. Your evaluation is on target and I agree. It also seems a "no brainer" to me, but man, am I wrong about that. You have one side, me, trying to find information that agree with what I say. You have the Board side, which flat out can't see it, then here I am again trying to comb the Internet to support the use of gas grills in public places, and the Board sitting back, not willing to justify their decisions other that with a secret vote. Aren't condos fun.
Then the crowning jewel is to try and get our fire chief to make a decision. I have tried for months to get a response from him, and he just will not answer the call. We are a private island with our own FD and paid firemen with some volunteers. The developer and the people that are engaged with the tourist trade are naturally looking at bottom line. Our condois a separate entity, but we also come under the umbrella of the island POA. Certainly this is not a matter for the POA as long as we do not violate their coveants. The police ar run by the POA and they are very supportive, as is the FD until it comes to this grill question. The FD will support the restriction of no grilling on decks and agree all grilling should be done in a restricted appropriate area, which we have. But, somewhere in this mish mash is the reason I can not get the FD to make a decision for or against gas brills, in writing. There are suggestions of signage and warning like, "DO not leave this grill unattended", blah blah. The whole world know that is not going to be effective and yet, there is the sign. But. in a nut shell this problem can't be solved correctly with proper authorties. I know it has a lot to do with the position our FD takes regards private residences. We have huge commerce here generated by the renting of units, this helps the bottom line of the developer, and keeps the club members (Club non-equity with golf course and all the bells and whistles)coming back for their yearly amenities cards). Somewhere in there is the reason and I can't flush it out, and never have been able to. I know, I could be wrong and that wouldn't bother me, if I knew why I didn't make sense.

Did some checking and turns out that gas grills are responsible for more home fires then charcoal. (http://tinyurl.com/3z2qpq). Most or the fires are due to leaks in the gas lines.

Now having said this, if I were in your place I would go for the gas over charcoal for safety reasons. Here are my thoughts:

1) You can manage the leaks of the gas grills. Add a task to the maintenance crew to spray the lines with soapy water each week to check for leaks. This takes little time and manages the main risk.

2) The leading cause of fire when charcoal is involved is lighter fluid. While you can post signs, and have people sign statements, someone will bring the stuff anyway. And said genius says he knows how to prevent the fire as he sprays it on a failed lighting attempt. And god knows what to do about the guy who gets some gas from the jet ski.

3) The gas grill remains hot for a lot less time. You turn it on, wait less time and start cooking. When done you turn it off and it has cooled considerably before the meal is over. Charcoal is still hot three hours after dinner.

My big concern would be cost. And tot hat end, I would insist that the whole thing be paid for with a surcharge to the rentals. Since the HOA is providing grills for their benefit, they should pay for the service. You could charge a fee for each week the unit is rented. Said fee should recoup the cost of the grills and pay for gas.

By the way, you should also include several fire extinguishers in the area. They should be looked over when checking for gas leaks. If you have natural gas service then you might want to get convertible grills. Then at some point you could bring out the natural gas and eliminate some of the places that are likely to leak.

Kirk,
Of course I mean to say, "I could not find the url.

Robert,

Wouldn't it be so much easier and less costly to just have charcoal grills? IMO, the meat tastes much better, too. :-)

Put coin fed meters on them gas grills.

Seriously, I think that if the HOA is supplying gas grills for the benefit of rental units, then the grills should be paid for by said rental units. This could be done simply by putting a surcharge on the rentals. Heck, if you word it correctly, the surcharge need not be included in the advertised price. Ever notice a "regulatory cost recovery fee?" That isn't a tax. It is an add on fee to cover some cost without putting it into the price.

Perhaps you could have a "LP Gas Recovery Fee."

I response to the original question as to how other associations handle their "gas grills" I offer this. My complex has onsite maintenance that checks and cleans the four natural gas and two charcoal grills at least five days a week. The gas grills themselves have had the temperature controls adjusted so that the grills will, under most circumstances, not exceed 540 degrees F. Don't ask me where the temperature set value came from. I do think however that there either was a conversation with the local Fire Marshal many years ago and it was just a recommendation or the insurance company provided recommendations to limit risk and keep the policy within reason. As an additional safety measure there is a timed valve that must be turned on to operate the grill and has a maximum time of three hours. I have also seen other timers that go only to one hour. As for lifecycle management, the gas grills are scheduled for two year replacement and we don't spend to much on the capital outlay as we are a gulf front property with lots of salt air. Last but not least. Since we don't spend lots on the grill (i.e. not stainless steel) the maintenance staff works a little harder to keep them clean and functional. Association talks are under way to see if spending a little more would actually provide a longer lifecycle and reduced maintenance workload.

Get rid of the dedicated "BBQ area" and watch short-termers start grilling on their decks in sneaky fashion. I'm not a fan of grill maintenance but there could be real logic why the board - long ago if not the current board - set aside a convenient grilling area. Give the community, I'd think there would be greater risk in NOT having this area. Otherwise, a condo fire would be catastrophic and certainly condo liability insurance would not pay. With grills on premises for so many years, I'm certain the insurance company knows of this grilling area.

Keep the fire marshal off your property. He'll only uncover things you haven't considered un-grill related. Same with calling insurance agents.