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KayK3 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Is it legal to have an amendment to the CC&Rs presented with choices to the membership. Such as vote for A ,B, C, D. When the voting takes place A is presented first and did not pass. Then B is presented and there were enough votes to pass. The voting ended then. The C and D were never offer for voting and could have also passed, just with different people voting for C or D on the same amendment. We will never know because they were not given the opportunity to vote.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Kay,

We need significantly more information.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Fascinating.

I too need more information. Like if C passed along with B, would the two amendments together result in a logical impossibility?

KayK3, to be efficient here, I think you need to post exactly what the ballot had on it.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
It is a very interesting question that we tried to address a few years ago when we wanted to amend our CC&Rs. We were considering 3 amendments. If the first one passed then the other 2 were relevant and apropos. If it didn't pass, then the second one was moot but the third one was not. We considered "conditional" ballots which got messy quick because there were about 6 different outcomes depending on how the individual amendments fared. In the end, we passed the first propsoed amendment by our attorney who charged us almost $4,000 to review it (some paperwork and a lot of hours at 250 per). That blew out our legal budget and we didn't bother with the other 2 amendments.

In other words, it's tricky to manage a multi-part vote that's contingent on something else happening first. I wish I had a success story for you on how we managed to do it, but I don't. Good luck.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Don't know why "legal" has to be brought into anything. Anyone going to jail or court over it? It's just a PROCEDURAL thing. Sounds like the HOA board had some options for some changes. If they passed, then they ammeneded the rules. If they failed, then it didn't happen. Can have as many options you want but if they don't pass they don't pass.

We made changes to our CC&R's but they were for conditions not options. We went to separate water meters. The rules had it the HOA was responsible for water. It is now the owner's each have a meter. So simply had to have the owners approve the change for referencing separate water meters. It wasn't options of conditions.

Former HOA President
KayK3 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
For new home construction, How much wood would be acceptable for exterior wall siding.
A was for 80% wood..
B was for 70% wood.
C was 50% wood.
D was 10% wood.

A and B were voted on first and B passed.
C and D were not presented for voting after B passed.
C or D might have also had enough votes to pass and possibly with more votes, just different members voting for different options.

As it turned out there were several people who did not vote since they did not vote for A or B but would have voted for C or D.

Was correct procedure followed?

Thank you.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KayK3 on 12/13/2019 6:01 AM
C and D were not presented for voting after B passed.


Thank you KayK3 for elaborating.

What do you mean when you say "C and D were not presented for voting"? Was the ballot given by email or snail mail to all members at least 30 days in advance (or whatever the covenants and Florida law specify for "legal notice")?

Did the instructions for the ballot say that a member could vote for only one choice (either A, B, C or D, and not any combination of A, B, C or D)?

When you say "several people did not vote," do you mean that voting was done by a show of hands?

What is the minimum percentage required to pass an amendment? If it is 50+%, and the ballot was properly "legally noticed" to members, mathematically I do not see how C or D could pass subsequently if the votes were properly counted and only one choice (from A, B, C or D) was allowed.

KayK3 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
The voting took place at the annual meeting in person and by proxy. Proper notice was given per Florida Statute and our CC&Rs. People could vote for A, B, C, and D. It was not pick and choose. Members who voted for A continued to vote for B. If it were to have gone on to vote for C and D a few people who voted for B would have dropped off and a few people who had not yet voted would have been able to vote for C or D. So yes, it would be possible to have passed C or D with more votes.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KayK3 on 12/13/2019 6:28 AM
The voting took place at the annual meeting in person and by proxy. Proper notice was given per Florida Statute and our CC&Rs. People could vote for A, B, C, and D. It was not pick and choose. Members who voted for A continued to vote for B. If it were to have gone on to vote for C and D a few people who voted for B would have dropped off and a few people who had not yet voted would have been able to vote for C or D. So yes, it would be possible to have passed C or D with more votes.

KayK3, given the above, I agree with you. I think how the vote was performed and the new amendment itself could be successfully challenged in a court of law.

First, if push came to shove and this landed in court, I think a competent judge would conclude that, when the CC&Rs state something like, 'The CC&Rs may be amended by a vote of 67% [or whatever KayK3's Declaration requires] of the membership," this means a single straight up or down vote on one issue, and any other issues on the ballot need to be unrelated.'

Second, I would get as many members who feel as you do together to sign a 'demand letter lite' and send it to the Board. It could read something like the following:

Dear Board,

Pursuant to Declaration Section __, the Declaration may be amended by a vote of ____ of the membership. In our opinion, among other things this means that votes to amend must be conducted in a manner that legitimately reflects the will of the membership.

On December __, 2019, the Association conducted a vote to amend the Declaration. Members were allowed to vote not once but instead repeatedly on the same issue. Each new vote tally reflected the membership's position on the percentage of wood allowed in exterior siding. Significantly, voting stopped after the second of four possible choices. If voting had continued, we believe the third and fourth choices may also have ostensibly achieved the vote required to become amendments. They may even have received a larger percentage of support than the second choice. Yet of course, implementing any two or more of the four choices would be logically inconsistent. With the greatest respect for your hard work as volunteers, we feel that these problems translate to the amendment being unlawful. Would the Board please discard the outcome of this vote, as it cannot reflect the will of the membership on this important issue? Also would the Board please plan to perform a new vote, using, for example, either the approach we describe below, or some other approach that will truly reflect the will of the membership?

Please let us know your decision by the end of December.

Thank you,

Jane Doe
Lot #____
Gator HOA

John Smith
Lot #____
Gator HOA

Liz Jones
Lot #___
Gator HOA

[And so on]

Third, how should this important issue have been decided? One approach would be to vote on this issue in two stages:
Stage 1, formal survey: at a properly noticed meeting of members, ask the membership to vote on what they recommend the board place on a ballot for the percentage of wood acceptable in exterior siding. The ballot should give members the four choices; state that members should check off no more than two choices; and indicate that ballots with three or more choices selected will be discarded. A properly qualified elections inspector should report how many votes each choice received.

Stage 2, vote to amend: Put the top two choices from Stage 1 on a new ballot. Properly notice all members. The ballot instructions should state that members are to vote for exactly one of three choices: x % of wood, y % of wood, neither. Inform voters that ballots with more than one choice will be discarded. If neither x nor y get the required vote, there is no amendment.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/13/2019 3:37 AM
Don't know why "legal" has to be brought into anything. Anyone going to jail or court over it? It's just a PROCEDURAL thing. Sounds like the HOA board had some options for some changes. If they passed, then they ammeneded the rules. If they failed, then it didn't happen. Can have as many options you want but if they don't pass they don't pass.

We made changes to our CC&R's but they were for conditions not options. We went to separate water meters. The rules had it the HOA was responsible for water. It is now the owner's each have a meter. So simply had to have the owners approve the change for referencing separate water meters. It wasn't options of conditions.

You're clueless here. Any HOA that doesn't pass propsed amendments by their attorney first is asking for trouble.

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