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GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Our HOA in Florida was created in the late 1980s. Whenever I read about other FL HOAs, both here and elsewhere, I get the impression that our type of community is a bit unusual.

Our subdivision is a gated community with one entrance/exit to a main county road. It was developed in 2 phases with an original plat filed with the county and 2 subsequent re-plats after that, the most recent being in 1991. The developer has long since ceded control to the HOA. There are 100 single-family residences in all, 35 side-by-side "duplex" units and 30 free-standing homes. There are Party Wall declarations that apply to the duplexes.

The homes stand upon zero-lot-line lots. In other words, the only land that goes along with the fee simple titles for the units when sold is the land directly under the foundation of the house (or half of a duplex). The lots can be viewed as cookie cutter cutouts on the larger subdivision plat, and all other areas are designated as "common areas". The common areas consist of all land not belonging to the units, the roads, and various amenities. Our documents specify that the HOA is responsible for upkeep of the common areas. There is a master insurance policy which covers the shells of the homes and their roofs, while each homeowner is responsible for carrying their own "studs-in" condo-type insurance policy.

My question is, is this form of HOA community common in Florida (or anywhere else for that matter)? In my mind I've been calling it a "zero-lot-line HOA" but the term "zero-lot-line" is almost always used in reference to Condominium associations.

My motivation here is simple. I moved here a year ago and just got elected to our Board of Directors. As an "aging community" there are issues with the common area grounds that are growing in importance and there is a growing discussion about how best to deal with those issues. In my extensive online searches for what other people's experiences may be in similar situations, I can't find any references at all to similar zero-lot-line subdivisions such as ours. Thanks for any insight.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Does your HOA pay property taxes on the common ground?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
My HOA has 107 Patio homes. The owner's own the home and the lot it sits on. Everything outside that lot is consider "Common Property". It is owned/maintained by the HOA. However, owner's do have "exclusive" use to the general area around their home. Our HOA is responsible for lawncare. This set up allowed us to provide lawncare to all the properties and not considered "Trespassing". Since ALL the owners own the common property.

We do have clubhouse and pool in addition. However, we did not maintain any kind of insurance on anyone's homes. It was just insurance for clubhouse/pool/board members. We did not fix or repair any homes but did enforce the restrictions such as paint colors and fencing etc...

It's a bit different than some on here have. I found it easier to get thing done with this kind of setup. Meaning that if someone was in violation, we could enter the "property" and remove/fix the violation. We then could send the bill to the owner if they refused to do the repair or pay.

I would make sure to read your documents backwards and forwards to make sure you understand what this means. Many find it a hard pill to swallow that the property around their home is not owned by them but ALL of the community.

Former HOA President
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Geno you may indeed be viewed as Condo under the FL statutes. More importantly since you were originally formed in the 80's were your deeds ever revitalized under the MRTA statutes? You may have bigger fish to fry other than run down common areas or Condo vs. HOA

http://www.floridacondohoalawblog.com/2010/01/articles/covenant-enforcementviolations/hoa-leaders-need-to-understand-mrta/

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Thank you all for your replies.

Quote:
Posted By NpS on 01/21/2015 1:29 PM
Does your HOA pay property taxes on the common ground?

A good question that made me do several hours of research (which I don't mind at all, I'd rather know than guess). The common areas, as platted, do appear in the county tax records as a separate parcel. The property record for that parcel speaks to easements, streets, common areas, drainage tracts and recreation tracts; all values and taxes are zero. There is a county tax bill every year that says $0 in taxes are due. I'm pretty sure the taxes assessed are divided up and split between the 100 owners. We get individual ad valorem tax and non ad valorem assessment bills yearly. Most are homesteaded.

Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/21/2015 1:39 PM
My HOA has 107 Patio homes. The owner's own the home and the lot it sits on. Everything outside that lot is consider "Common Property". It is owned/maintained by the HOA. However, owner's do have "exclusive" use to the general area around their home. Our HOA is responsible for lawncare. This set up allowed us to provide lawncare to all the properties and not considered "Trespassing". Since ALL the owners own the common property.

We do have clubhouse and pool in addition. However, we did not maintain any kind of insurance on anyone's homes. It was just insurance for clubhouse/pool/board members. We did not fix or repair any homes but did enforce the restrictions such as paint colors and fencing etc...

It's a bit different than some on here have. I found it easier to get thing done with this kind of setup. Meaning that if someone was in violation, we could enter the "property" and remove/fix the violation. We then could send the bill to the owner if they refused to do the repair or pay.

I would make sure to read your documents backwards and forwards to make sure you understand what this means. Many find it
a hard pill to swallow that the property around their home is not owned by them but ALL of the community.

Melissa, this sounds very similar to our arrangement with the exception of the insurance situation. In the year since I moved in I have read our documents several times. Each has been amended at least once over the years and I am familiar with those as well. The most pressing issue we will be addressing this year is tree roots - the trees are now maturing at 25-30 years old - encroaching onto some people's homes and foundation slabs. Last year the BoD got an opinion from the HOA attorney that said the association was responsible for the damage since the trees are all on common property. There are several homes that may be affected in the next few years.

Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 01/21/2015 1:55 PM
Geno you may indeed be viewed as Condo under the FL statutes. More importantly since you were originally formed in the 80's were your deeds ever revitalized under the MRTA statutes? You may have bigger fish to fry other than run down common areas or Condo vs. HOA.

Past boards were on the ball with respect to MRTA and steps were taken back in 2010 to make sure we were up to date with what needed to be done. We're in the Florida DBPR HOA registry, the initial Articles of Incorporation filed in 1988 give the name of the corporation as "XYZ Homeowners Association, Inc", there was never a Declaration filed as per FS 718.104 with the word "condominium" in it, and we meet all the the requirements of FS 720.301 where a "Homeowners' Association" is defined. So despite the unusual insurance provisions we seem to have, I'm fairly certain (been around too long to ever say '100% certain' about anything) we are indeed an HOA covered by FS 720.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
We had to do a "Tree project" a few years ago. The reason was some trees were causing issues by being too large or a danger. We spent about $2K in cutting down select trees. The criteria of the trees to be cut down were that they could NOT be owner planted trees. ONLY trees that were "original" to the lot/neighborhood and trees the developer planted. We had a rule that if you planted a tree with approval, you are responsible for it's upkeep or any damages.

Of course, we could not do all the trees with issues, but we did set up a process. Unfortunately, the week of my leaving a tree did fall on a house. The tree was in one yard but fell across onto a house next door. The house the tree was behind had no insurance. It was being used as a rental. So the house that was damaged their insurance had to pay for the damage. That insurance company then went after the other owner. Our HOA was responsible for the cleanup of the tree debris. Which had also fallen on a fence. We do not own the fences but approve and enforce conditions on them.

I would check not with your HOA attorney but with your insurance company. Find out what the payout is if there were a claim. Find out the cost of removal of the trees. Keep in mind that the insurance company will either drop your coverage after a claim or raise your costs. Let the owner's know that getting insurance to pay out is going to raise costs or cancel. You all may want to institute a tree cutting program and pay out of the HOA budget with a special assessment.

Former HOA President
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Hi Geno

We had a similar problem with trees. 30 year old townhouse community totally overplanted with fast growing trees too close to houses. Roots encroaching on foundation walls, heaving driveways, etc.

HOA property is platted but all property taxes paid by individual HOs.

Our lot line situation is different. Lots extend beyond foundation walls front and back. Builder was off by up to 5' in any direction, so not sure where actual lot lines are. In fact, up to 5' of my house could be on my next door neighbor's lot. We have no idea if decks are on private or common ground.

Like Melissa, we hired an arborist. Four years ago, he developed a five year plan for removals and replacements based on various safety factors he uses. He comes out at least once a year to review current conditions. We finished his five year plan in 3 years by borrowing against reserves.

Our financial justification was as follows:

The cost of pruning is about 60% of the cost of removal. If we prune now, we will probably have to prune at least 2-3 more times over the next 20 years. If we remove it now, it's a one-time expense, and we can put in trees that are more appropriate for a mature community. ( We hired a landscape designer to work out a long range plan for rejuvenating the community. )

Pruning does reduce the tree canopy which often slows root growth. But that would only delay the pace at which the roots encroach on the houses. So removal made sense.

Our attorney had a different opinion than yours. He said that the trees were there when the HOs bought their houses, and that the HOA cannot be responsible for the growth of living things. But our situation is different than yours - because we have no insurance policy on the homes. His opinion might have been different under those circumstances.

We also made a somewhat controversial decision (based on our interpretation of PA HOA law) that we were not going to absorb 100% of the tree removal cost in every case. We created a 15' rule-of-thumb - Any tree that was more than 15' from the footprint of the house (foundation and decks) was the full financial responsibility of the HOA. For anything within the 15' rule, we pay only 50% of the removal cost and bill the affected HOs for the other 50%.

The story is long and more complicated that needs to be described here, but just to give you a heads up - We were dealing for the first time with the issue that certain costs were not going to be divided equally among all HOs. If a tree that needed to go was within 15' of the footprint of your house, you were going to pay more than everyone else for its removal.

For you, hiring an arborist is a great starting place. That insurance issue is a real bugaboo. You might want to get another legal opinion. Also, you might want to think about how you would source the funding of a major tree removal campaign. In 3 years, we reduced our tree inventory by more than 20% and our ongoing tree maintenance costs by around 18%. Almost all of the foundation encroachment issues are gone (with the few that remain, the insurance obligation is on the HO so not a concern for the HOA).

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Yes we also hired an licensed arborist to give us their opinion. They did work for the tree company we hired. He was able to help us understand many of the issues going on with our trees. He identified the Pine Beetle infestation on the large Pine Trees of which was one that fell. However, we could not afford the thousands of dollars to remove the large trees at the time and the tree fell anyways. A good plan does help and knowing what kind of trees to keep, plant, or remove long term.

Former HOA President

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