ALL THE TULIPS ARE GONE!

Last fall, in an effort to improve our community, we had flower beds planted at the end of each court in our HOA. Each bed includes an ornamental tree, some boxwoods, and three rows of tulips. Well, the tulips look beautiful. But in one court some children took a pair of scissors and cut every single one of them and took them home to their mom.

Yesterday I was walking the neighborhood and saw what had been done. Another board member was outside with neighbors. They all complained to me that it was the chidren in 5-5 that had cut the flowers. The lady came outside and I politely asked her if she knew about it. She said she did and that her children thought they were wild flowers and that they wanted to give her flowers, that they didn't know and it wasn't serious. I then politely mentioned that she let the children know not to pick any flowers other than ones that might be growing in their yard. She got pretty nasty about it. Then she went up the street, got her friend, and hemmed and hawed the whole time she came down the sidewalk.

I got to thinking. If she fails to think it is important to teach her children not to take something that isn't in their yard, then what will be the next thing? Will she not think it is serious when they steal something from school and say they didn't know? Then when they are teenagers and the shoplift, will she say the same thing...it isn't serious?

I know they are just kids. But if had been my children (who are grown) I would have taken them to the store and bought new flowers and had them plant them.

Am I overboard, or is there something you all would do differently?

Pau,

I had somewhat of a similar issue. Behind our clubhouse that is not visible from the street there was fast food wrappers and such being left around about two nights a week. I kept trying to catch the culprits to ask them to clean up after themselves.
Finally I caught them. They ran away, I confiscated a bunch of drug paraphenalia. One of the homeowners came down to my house the next day saying I had no right to stop them from using the area. I told him I as going to ask them to clean up after themselves and also asked him if he wanted me to turn the drug parapenalia over to the police. He went quite. Since that time father and son participate in all clean up and work parties that the association has.

Rick
HOA President.

My mother, too, would have disciplined me. This woman said it wasn't serious and her children didn't know. It's frustrating.

I don't know what the board can do. We are concerned that it will happen again. If we send a letter, she will blow us off.

My mother tied me to the neighbor's fence once for picking her peonies...I was probably 4 or 5 and it didn't stop me from picking flowers to bring home to my mother. She always asked me where I got them and of course, it was from some neighbors yard on the way home.

Personally, I don't think this is such a big issue as the tulips would have lost their petals in a week or two...and they will come up again next year. It would be unrealistic to have the homeowner try to purchase blooming tulip bulbs to replace those picked by the children. The mother should talk to the children and explain that they are only allowed to pick flowers in their own yard and not others.

And by the way, I have never been in trouble with the law and I turned out to be quite normal and responsible...and as an adult, have my own yard full of flowers.

Life is too short, I could only wish my mother was still here so that I may bring her some flowers.

Unfortunately, the underlying "theme" of this post is what plagues most HOAs. It is not simply a "parental" issue with regards to training/raising their children properly (and that could be considered "subjective").

I think it (as the theme evolved into on this post and responses), has to do with the "world in which we live..." The reason we have HOAs, POA, and other community based associations - is that at some point government (local, state, federal) became too cumbersome, or inept to respond to the needs of owners. We went from the "full service" of a most of our community needs being handled by a municipality, to "self-service" where we do it ourselves (HOA, Board, MC, subcontractors, etc).

Take the "tulips" situation... under the "full service" and "self-service" models, most of the options remain the same (march to neighbor whose children damaged the flowers, call cops, seek civil or criminal penalties, etc). Somewhere the idea of talking and actually engaging the folks that live near you (I think Webster's might call them neighbors), fell to the wayside for both models. It became "easier" for most to "not get involved..." because it required "too much time/work" - and we are all overworked, and outta time.

Then when either model (full or self) has a body that wants to actually enforce what most already KNOW to be proper conduct - it ruffles some feathers. Folks want to speak about how "rights" have been violated - equally forgetting (or maybe it is old age, I had to search for my glasses this AM, and they were on top my head), that they play a ROLE in the complete cycle of abiding by the rules. If you do not infringe on the rule, chances are it will not affect you - however when the rule is infringed, everyone who is expected to follow, plays a role in assuring that things move back to the rules intent.

Personal note, my wife and I both had a chuckle on the replies about "marching them back up and having them apologize, re-plant, and pay for damages, etc. She is a "TK" (teacher's kid) twice (both parents), my parents owned a local business where most if not all of the locals frequented. Suffice to say... stuff that we did, got "home" before we did. I knew I had a problem when the common threat of sending a kid "off to military school" was actually one that I welcomed (and eventually did happened) - at least there no one knew my parents... (yet). Smile

The flowers were planted with association funds and the children stole them. That's vandalism, destruction of property, and theft. Is it a big deal? Well, it's not a felony, but if this is not addressed, how would the association recover costs from the next group of vandals? Let's say they break out all the lights at the entrance or spray paint the gazebo.

Re-reading the OP, the parent didn't seem to be too impressed when told of her children's vandalism, and I doubt she did anything to impress on her children that this was not to happen again.

$100.00 as someone suggested, seems high to me, but if this is the established fine structure, that's OK, $100.00 it is. The very least that can be expected is that the family pay for the cost of the items vandalised (the flowers and the cost of planting them).

Well, they did STEAL them, didn't they? The definition of theft being "to take someon elses property without their permission".

If you will take the time to re-read my first two posts, I did not suggest a "fine" to "line my HOA coffers", I suggested that the family be required to reimburse the HOA for the cost of the items taken. I believe this is fair to the association members and to the family of the vandals and it will provide some incentive to the parents to educate their children in responsibility and good citizenship. How would you feel if they stole your flowers from your yard? How would you feel if older "children" drove their cars on your lawn and tore it up? It will grow back, right?

As far as a "REAL enjoyable neighborhood", how enjoyable is a neighborhood where personal property is not safe?, Where "children" (whatever their age) have no respect for their neighbor's or the association's property?

If you live in OZ, children will be children. If you live in the real world, children who do not learn responsibility and good citizenship at an early age will be vandals, then criminals.

Ron,

'Well, they did STEAL them, didn't they? The definition of theft being "to take someon elses property without their permission". '

I guess the lawyer they'd hire would respond it isn't theft since as members of the HOA it was THEIR property (maybe only joint ownership), so they will put them back when their turn is over.

Maybe because they are tulips I see this as different from even some other plant. Kind of like a flower on a tree...the tree is still there to produce more. If the kids pulled up the entire bulb then there would be more of an issue.

Fines don't have to be the be all end all to resolving issues in a HOA do they?

I agree the kids need to be educated on the appropriate behaviour but look at the motiviation for the deed first and rspond accordingly.

They wanted to make Mom feel good and picked some flowers. That's it, that's all.

They now know they should not have picked these ones.

Your examples of comparable offenses is somewhat laughable, ie. older kids driving and tearing up my lawn.

1. Somebody doing that is not trying to do a good deed.
2. Older kids would KNOW it was wrong.
3. The damage from such action would not just regrow, there would be ruts and permanent damage.

Gotta do better than that Ron. PS. Are you a golfer with your weed lawn fixation?

I think we are all missing the original point where the mother was approached and blew it off and was offended that someone called her on her kids behavior. I have no doubt the kids didn't mean to do any harm and probably didn't know better. But the mother does. If someone approached me about it I would have apologized to them and explained that they didn't know better and I would talk to my kids about it. I think that is all he really wanted from the mother. I don't think he wants them on a chain gang picking up trash or in Juvenille detention or on Court TV. Yes he has the right to report it to the Police and make the parents pay restitution, however, it would have been a nice gesture for the parents to do that on their own.

What has ever happened to good decent manners in this country. We all make mistakes, especially kids, a please, thank you and I am sorry can go a long way if we all started treated people like people again.

To answer the original question, yes, I am appalled at the mother's reaction, she is the adult and should handle the situation better. It is her job to teach kids right from wrong, it may just be flowers, but anyone who has kids knows there are teaching moments all day, every day, and this would have been a good one to say, "hey I appreciate the gesture, but you can not destroy other people's property."

Ron,

That post wasn't directed at you, and I agree 100% with what you said.

Brad and Ron,

"She said she did and that her children thought they were wild flowers and that they wanted to give her flowers, that they didn't know and it wasn't serious. I then politely mentioned that she let the children know not to pick any flowers other than ones that might be growing in their yard. She got pretty nasty about it."

You both seem to attribute more to the mother's reaction than I do and maybe that is partly why you feel more action (punitive) is needed.

1. She didn't hide the fact she knew. She may have even told the kids when she realized where they got them from not to take them from there again.

2. We all seemed to agree 'it wasn't serious' and it is now only serious because you don't think she responded how you think she should have.

3. I think as soon as the OP said "I then politely mentioned that she let her children know not to pick any flowers other than the ones that might be growing in their yard" the OP OVERSTEPPED into telling the mother how to do her job and THAT is why she got nasty. FURTHER the OP has no right to limit their flower picking to their OWN yard. There are other places to pick flowers that wouldn't be a problem.

As far as restitution, I reiterate that these are BULBS and therefore they will bloom again next year exactly when they are supposed to so buying replacement plants isn't necessary to restore what time will do on its own.

So you think they will do it again without imposing YOUR version of 'consequences'?

Guess you've never been given a second chance eh/

to PauG:
With all the banter over how to discipline and raise children and what type of restitution is in order for misbehavior on the children's part...it is not for us to know if, after the fact, the parents disciplined the children or not. And its not really our responsibility to see that she does...nor should we assume...

But, as far as the flowers being picked, the Board has the option of billing the owner a charge for the flower bulbs that were interfered with; a small charge that would set an example that the flowers cost the assn. money and are 'off limits'. It would set to right all involved.

BradP, I do have kids and I would have first thanked them for doing something that was intended to be thoughful (That WAS the underlying motivation of the action NOT vandalism) and THEN in kid language I would have pointed out that the flowers they cut are there for everyone to enjoy so they are best left uncut.

This reminds me of a long row of flowering trees lining the exterior of the boundries of homes and a shopping center. I passed it frequently for 8 to to years, several years ago, and rarely saw flowers on any of them, though that species was in bloom for months at a time in the region.
I figured the soil was bad, or this was a non-blooming relative.
Someone finally questioned the local newspaper, which set up surveillance. Turned out the numerous flowers were being picked regularly for boquets by a few older people for sale in their flower shop. If memory serves, they were fined and that suspended. They got off with a warning and a few hours community service, after making much money over many years. They were no longer permitted to take the flowers, and I would guess, suffered a severe loss of income. Passers-by finally got th enjoy the beauty of the trees in bloom.

Maybe they started off stealing for their mother, too.

AS I understand it, this forum IS open, anyone can respond or question. As I understand it, DJ1 has a right to be here. His/her responses have been valid, varied, and expand our horizons. S/He has a different point of view, and helps us (here) see things in a more neighborly way.
Homeowners associations are advertised, even if only subliminally, as friendly, caring, neighborhoods. His/Her posts have been evocative and maybe not in line with board members opinions of how things should be handled, but it is important that they be heard. So many people living in hoas are afraid to say anything, afraid (for good reason) they will targetted, and this person does not have to fear that.

S/He hasn't argued with every post, but maybe some of what s/he is saying is too close to home for some board members. The person that is most irritating is perhaps the one we should listen to best, more often, and as you suggest, learn from. That s/he does not live in an HOA and chooses to be here says something of the kind of person he is. S/He IS helping us get along with our business. A bunch of "yes-men" is not going to get us anywhere that _I_ would want to live in.

This has been an interesting string with many turns. There's been a lot of talk about childhoods and how neighbors and parents were involved/influenced when we messed up.

Someone once said 'it takes a village'. I too remember once doing something wrong in my neighbor's yard (maybe playing in the sand box without permission or the ball went into the flowers - something a kid would do . . .). My mother wasn't aware of it but the neighbor was and told me to stop, so I did. We respected our elders like that.

I just happened to be working at home one day this winter and noticed the neighborhood kids sledding outside. All was well until a couple of the kids headed toward the storm water drain pond. Then of course several more went down there and then some more. The hills were pretty slick and the pond was not completely frozen over and I could see they were getting ready to 'hang out' there. Did I call the HOA BOD to tattle on them? Did I call their parents? No. I went out and told them to get away from the pond. I realize that this is not "picking flowers", but it could have been a real disaster. They probably already knew they shouldn't have been there because they promptly followed my order and went back to their sledding.

If I had seen childern picking the community flowers and it bothered me I would have told them to stop or I may have called a BOD when it happened. If they [the kids] told their mother about what I said then she can be upset with me and/or can complain about me to the BOD, who would have agreed that picking the community flowers was wrong. Either way at least the childern would know even if their mother didn't say anything.

In contrast I ran into a neighbor at the store yesterday who seemed to complain about another neighbor's recent project. The context was the perception that because this person is on the BOD that the project got approved. I happen to know that the project was submitted to the CC, like everyone else is required and told her so. (I also know which of these two neighbors know the CCRs and which hasn't bothered to read them.)

My point is, and as someone else posted, what happened to decent people? Or to common sense for that matter?

I didn't grow up in an HOA and I'm not bashing them. To be very honest if my mother were finded $100 because I picked her some flowers, we probably would have had to go without meals for a couple of days. Having lived in HOAs, by choice, for the past 18 years it just seems like people (supposed "community") to want to make mountains out of mole hills of just this type of situation.

There is a difference in being a part of 'community', protecting community value and just being in someone else's business because you can. When will we grow up?

Did you also read the one about 'honor thy father and mother'?

We aree on track. The children stole the flowers and the parent apparently didn't think it was a problem. Some of the other posters don't seem to think so either.

Ok if your going to put the onus on the BOD then send a notice to all members reminding them that the flowers are for the benefit of the entire community and get on with life. If it happens again next year particually with the same family lets talk about fines, punishment and jail time.

T

Mercy, Mercy, Mercy, Lord a'MERCY!

Oh Jeez Ronald, if you're going to start quoting the bible...

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

I bet you never did anything wrong in your life. I don't think anyone said picking the flowers was not stealing (by definition) or was RIGHT, BUT if you look at everything as black or white without taking into account the circumstances or motivation for the 'act' then you are exactly the kind of person that should NEVER be on a BOD let alone allowed to live with other human beings!