What constitutes a full-view storm door?

Started by HowardF4 • 23 replies • 4143 views

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HowardF4 (Virginia)
Posts: 6

Posted:

I am a member of our HOA's ARB. Our documents state that homeowners can install full-view storm doors (white) if they submit a ARB form. My question is at what point does a full-view storm door stop being a full-view door. I know this sounds silly, but some doors have a kick plate or taller bottom portion than others and they are actually marketed as a full-view door. Whereas some internet sites call them 1/3rd view doors, but they clearly have more glass than a half-view door.

The ARB approved an application for one of these "full-view" doors and now one of the 3 BODs is contesting our decision to approve the door. Does anyone have any advice on when a full-view door is no longer a full-view door. The one BOD is actually threatening to hire a lawyer to review this. BTW, the door was approved and installed over a year ago. Certainly, the time for the BOD to review and over turn any ARB decision has lapsed.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,050

Posted:

Howard,

Honestly, it varies. The fact that I had a 1 foot kick plate at the bottom of my door (which was put on by the builder) became an issue as those in power declared that it was no longer a full view door (I won that fight). Therefore, I understand the issue and commend you for seeking information on it. The Association now considers the Anderson model 4000 or 3000 series style as a full view storm door (some have brass plates on the bottom and some do not). To accommodate the older style full view storm doors, we came up with the following guideline:

DOORS, STORM/SCREEN

Storm/Screen Doors are optional. However, when installing or replacing a storm/screen door, prior approval from the Architectural Committee is required. When applying for approval, the following should be considered:

• New or Replacement storm/screen doors must be full view or self-storing full view (no panels). Variations to this style will not be approved.

• All full view or self-storing full view (no panels) storm/screen doors are to be painted to match the approved front door color or the approved trim color on the home.

Properties that received earlier approval for other styles of storm/screen doors are grandfathered providing the door is properly maintained. When replaced, the replacement door will require approval and must comply with current guidelines. Additionally, the following applies to all storm/screen doors that are not full view:

• Doors having panels, or are not full view, must be painted the same color as the front door and the shutters.

Personally, I'd prefer to have my 1 foot kick plate back as it helped keep the dog from tearing at the screen door and it didn't show the splash marks (from rain) as easily.

My suggestion would be to drive around and see what the homes in the Association already have. Then clarify your guideline if needed.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Howard,

Your documents allow a door to be installed without defining precisely what that door may be. Your association is is in an indefensible position trying to enforce a vague and undefined standard that even the door industry cannot agree on, as you pointed out. I think your ARB did the right thing in permitting the door as there was no good reason to deny the request.

The board member who wishes to contest your decision a year after-the-fact is an idiot. As you noted, the time for board action has passed. Hopefully he will be spending his own money on the lawyer and not the association's funds because he has little to stand on.

Advice:

1. Do not vote for that board member at the next election.

2. Amend your documents to define precisely what a full-view storm door is.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By HowardF4 on 04/09/2014 8:17 PM
I am a member of our HOA's ARB. Our documents state that homeowners can install full-view storm doors (white) if they submit a ARB form. My question is at what point does a full-view storm door stop being a full-view door. I know this sounds silly, but some doors have a kick plate or taller bottom portion than others and they are actually marketed as a full-view door. Whereas some internet sites call them 1/3rd view doors, but they clearly have more glass than a half-view door.

The ARB approved an application for one of these "full-view" doors and now one of the 3 BODs is contesting our decision to approve the door. Does anyone have any advice on when a full-view door is no longer a full-view door. The one BOD is actually threatening to hire a lawyer to review this. BTW, the door was approved and installed over a year ago. Certainly, the time for the BOD to review and over turn any ARB decision has lapsed.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

First, usually the Architectural Committee is independent of the BOD, at least in the original Declaration of CC&Rs. If this is the case this Board member would have to sue as a homeowner and not as a Board member. This would make them think twice since the HOA would not be paying the cost.

Now for the "full-view" door, you did not state any specific requirements which define "full view". If not specifically defined then it is whatever the Architectural Committee decides.
Reminds me of the joke about the manager who asked "what is 2+2"? The lawyer's response was "whatever you want it to be"

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=full+view+storm+door&qpvt=full+view+storm+door&FORM=IGRE

HowardF4 (Virginia)
Posts: 6

Posted:

Thank you all for your replies. WRT the Bing search...thanks, but you'll also find "full-view" storm doors with kick plates or panels (see attached picture)...the bottom line is that I think we need to modify our documents to specify what is considered to be a full-view storm door and provide measurements on maximum frame size...which truly seems insane to me. Perhaps I'm not cut out to serve on the ARB, especially if every house has to look identical - I see nothing wrong with different types of storm doors, as long as they look nice and are maintained...but will continue to enforce our requirements as long as they are enforceable...

Again...thank you.
-howard

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,050

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By HowardF4 on 04/10/2014 9:10 AM

- I see nothing wrong with different types of storm doors, as long as they look nice and are maintained...but will continue to enforce our requirements as long as they are enforceable...

Well, depending which document has the requirement, you could also recommend that it be removed.

OR

Simply specify various versions of storm doors that are allowed which the Association will consider as full view. Use the search link John provided to show that various companies define full view differently as support for your recommendation.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Howard,

I think your original question, "What constitutes a full-view storm door?" may have gotten overlooked.

The answer should be in at least one of several places. The document that permits a full-view storm door should define what that term means. In the absence of such a definition, you might look for an accepted legal definition, which is not likely to exist. Equally valuable would be a generally-accepted industry definition, which you have already found does not exist.

A word or phrase in a covenant becomes unenforceably vague when reasonable persons can arrive a different conclusions as to its meaning. It appears that you have that very situation. See Allen v. Reed, for example, where the Colorado Court of Appeals ruled on the vagueness of the term, "one-story" house.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/co-court-of-appeals/1464443.html

HowardF4 (Virginia)
Posts: 6

Posted:

Thank you...that is most useful and get's to the point that I'm trying to make with my BOD. There is no such thing as an "all glass" storm door (unlike shower doors)...at least I haven't seen one. There has to be a frame and our documents do not define the maximum width of the frame to still be considered full-view.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,569

Posted:

you might try something along the lines of:

a 'full frame' storm door shall have xx% of its nominal sixe consisting of glass, no 'kick plate shall be more than x" high, and shall not have a horizontal 'mullion' or brace

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,050

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB26 on 04/10/2014 2:52 PM

and shall not have a horizontal 'mullion' or brace

Although many dual doors (those that include screen and glass together and operate like a double hung window) tend to have at least one horizontal mullion. Just saying, it's something to keep in mind. John gave a good suggestion but, if utilized as offered, it could exclude such doors. So you might want to see what type of doors are currently in use first.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By HowardF4 on 04/10/2014 2:30 PM
Thank you...that is most useful and get's to the point that I'm trying to make with my BOD. There is no such thing as an "all glass" storm door (unlike shower doors)...at least I haven't seen one. There has to be a frame and our documents do not define the maximum width of the frame to still be considered full-view.

Howard

That is splitting hairs. I know a full glass storm door when I see one. The earlier listed Andersen door (3000, 4000????) are perfect examples of a full glass door.

A smart ARB would cite such as examples.

My stand alone homes HOA has such a restriction. Storm doors are optional but they must be full glass/screen and white.

HowardF4 (Virginia)
Posts: 6

Posted:

Thank you. It is splitting hairs...but the document doesn't have any examples beyond stating "Full-view is defined as all glass or all glass with one center cross bar for an a attachable and/or roll-up retractable screen." I don't want to split any hairs, but i have one BOD who wants to sue to over turn a decision we made to approve the door over a year ago. So, the whole situation is looney tunes IMHO.

Any way, how do you tell a homeowner that they can't have a door with a small panel at the bottom when there is no legal or industry definition of "full view" and our document just says all glass. So, instead of splitting hairs, it seems the reasonable thing to do would be to approve a door with a small panel at the bottom as the door certainly isn't a half-view door...and that is what we did.

Thanks again to everyone. I've recommended to our President that they fix the documents to put in examples or specifications so that it can be "black and white".

SG3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 63

Posted:

Standardize your doors and windows and advise the make and model nos. to be purchased. You might want to have the installs go through the AC.

Having people replace their doors and windows with whatever they please runs down the appearance of the community. Just as they were all built to spec, you need to specify exactly what they are to purchase on replacement. Descriptions and pictures aren't enough. Tell them what to buy and where to get it.

SG3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 63

Posted:

Oh, and good luck, lol.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

From our specs:

Front Storm Door

Approval is required for front storm door installations or changes. All requests must comply with these specifications:

- Manufacturer: Andersen 3000 Series, 3TSB-36AL, or Andersen 2000 Series
- Tyoe: Full view, or full view with self storing screen, clear glass, plain border
- Color: xxx
- Size: xx x xx

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 04/10/2014 2:53 AM
Howard,

Your documents allow a door to be installed without defining precisely what that door may be. Your association is is in an indefensible position trying to enforce a vague and undefined standard that even the door industry cannot agree on, as you pointed out. I think your ARB did the right thing in permitting the door as there was no good reason to deny the request.

The board member who wishes to contest your decision a year after-the-fact is an idiot. As you noted, the time for board action has passed. Hopefully he will be spending his own money on the lawyer and not the association's funds because he has little to stand on.

Advice:

1. Do not vote for that board member at the next election.

2. Amend your documents to define precisely what a full-view storm door is.

I'm in agreement with Larry. The board, and ARC is in a difficult position.

I don't think an amendment would be required, but the architectural/appearance regulations should definitely be updated to include exactly what the board's definition of "full view" actually is. I would personally write it something like "Andersen Model #XXXXX or similar" i.e Don't care what brand it is, but that's what it should look like.

JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170

Posted:

Well, I'd be like this in a HOA, if someone made a Change CC&R on one definition micro managing a door to be a specific brand and style that may go out of production in a few years, that would open huge can of worms for me on all the other restrictions not being micro managed down to a particular brand and style of things like shingles on the roof, specific style of Grass, that's just crazy to make things to a specific brand and model. Common sense full glass is upper and lower sections are glass with framing not a upper panel of glass and bottom section metal or wood.

Maybe someone on that board walked through a full plate glass door somewhere and has a phobia of glass doors now?

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JamesO6 on 10/19/2014 7:44 PM
Well, I'd be like this in a HOA, if someone made a Change CC&R on one definition micro managing a door to be a specific brand and style that may go out of production in a few years, that would open huge can of worms for me on all the other restrictions not being micro managed down to a particular brand and style of things like shingles on the roof, specific style of Grass, that's just crazy to make things to a specific brand and model. Common sense full glass is upper and lower sections are glass with framing not a upper panel of glass and bottom section metal or wood.

Maybe someone on that board walked through a full plate glass door somewhere and has a phobia of glass doors now?

That's why don't specify that it must be a specific door, but you use a specific door as a gold standard for reference. "or similar" (or words to that effect. Or you let it go out of production (doors seldom do) and determine a new model at that time. It's really not that difficult.

Shingles: "Architectural shingles from ABC123 color PinkyPink or similar"

The ARC is the arbiter determining whether the proposed door meets the "or similar" requirement compared to the reference door.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

...shall be [brand], [model] OR EQUIVALENT EQUAL

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DaveD3 on 10/20/2014 3:45 AM

1. I think it makes a difference what type of community you live in - Singles are different than townhouses. In my townhouse community, homeowners are responsible for their own roofs. But a roof (or portion of a roof) can cover more than one house. And we allow one side to be replaced without the other side being replaced. So we have very specific rules not only on the shingle that must be used but also on the manner of installation on shared roofs. If our houses were singles, it wouldn't matter so much because work done by A's contractor wouldn't have a potential effect on B's house.

2. I am not a fan of putting the words "or similar" in the specs on small items like storm doors. The added words could shift the center of influence from the ARB to the contractor. In a recent survey we did, more than half of our homeowners said that they were relatively unsophisticated when dealing with contractors. Contractors could easily convince the homeowner that their proposed alternative is an equivalent - So the homeowner and the contractor reach a decision, and after that decision is already made, the ARB is stuck in the position of having to defend itself.

3. Instead of using "or similar," we have a policy where the ARB will approve a non-spec item provisionally, which means that the homeowner can install the item, but a final determination on whether it will be added to our specs is made after the item is installed. The benefit of doing things this way is that the ARB stays current and our specs stay current. Information about what one homeowner does is shared with the next homeowner who wants to do something similar.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

...I am not a fan of putting the words "or similar" in the specs...

the term "...or equivalent equal..." is an industry standard which holds up in court

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB26 on 10/20/2014 1:24 PM

...I am not a fan of putting the words "or similar" in the specs...

the term "...or equivalent equal..." is an industry standard which holds up in court

Not a fan of putting the words "or equivalent" in the specs either for the same reasons.

It may hold up in court, but I don't think these issues even get to a court most of the time.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

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