Change CCRs to allow Flag Poles

Started by CaroleR • 25 replies • 4606 views

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CaroleR (Kentucky)
Posts: 1

Posted:

Our CCRs do not allow flag poles. They are now allowed by Law so we want to change our CCRs to reflect this. Any suggestions on verbiage? In Arizona and I am president of new, small HOA (97 homesites - few homes built, some being built).
Thanks.

LisaS (Illinois)
Posts: 341

Posted:

Our CCRs simply state that no flagpoles in excess of 20 feet are allowed. In another section of the document , there is a requirement that homeowners submit a written request for apporval and that it is subject to review by the Architectural Review Committee. This prevents flagpoles in odd places.

To change our CCRs we need a 2/3 vote of the membership. This is impossible. So you may want to file an addendum or a 'rule' depending on your state and your CCRs.

CharlesN2 (Florida)
Posts: 11

Posted:

I continue to be amazed that people by into a deed restricted situation, than want to bend the rules and regulations. I live in FL. One can display in a approporate manner the American Flag. Bending it slightly, a hospilaty flag. But, what is it with these flag poles? In reference to to the above, anything else would be considered Advertising be it your favorite sports team or otherwise. Forget the "Flag" poles. Sould the developer or the majority of homeowners request a "Pole" at the enterance, that is another subject.

As for your question, a amendment to your docs would have to be filed. If only a few of your properties have been sold, I am going to guess that the developer is still, as states vary, is still in control. Not sure how you are President, as usually a persentage of lot/unit must be sold before the developer turns over the properties to a HOA. (Homeowners)

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

New Years resolution,

Many times answers are posted to specific issues and they are filed away to be retrived by the search feature on this page, upper right.
Just plug in American Flag, you will find all about this topic.

New Years Resolution

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CharlesN2 on 12/31/2008 6:35 PM
I continue to be amazed that people by into a deed restricted situation, than want to bend the rules and regulations. I live in FL. One can display in a approporate manner the American Flag. Bending it slightly, a hospilaty flag. But, what is it with these flag poles? In reference to to the above, anything else would be considered Advertising be it your favorite sports team or otherwise. Forget the "Flag" poles. Sould the developer or the majority of homeowners request a "Pole" at the enterance, that is another subject.

As for your question, a amendment to your docs would have to be filed. If only a few of your properties have been sold, I am going to guess that the developer is still, as states vary, is still in control. Not sure how you are President, as usually a persentage of lot/unit must be sold before the developer turns over the properties to a HOA. (Homeowners)

Charles while the national Freedom to Fly an American Flag Act doesn't mention flag poles (in the version I saw) they are implied and many states including Ohio and Arizona have laws which specifically allow them.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CaroleR on 09/06/2005 8:29 PM
Our CCRs do not allow flag poles. They are now allowed by Law so we want to change our CCRs to reflect this. Any suggestions on verbiage? In Arizona and I am president of new, small HOA (97 homesites - few homes built, some being built).
Thanks.

Carol IMHO you do not specifically need to amend your documents over this. Most documents have a separation or invalidation clause in them which states that should a section become unenforceable for any reason the rest of the document remains intact. Our CC&R's have it in both the Covenants (twice) and in the By-Law

I would have the BOD pass a simple resolution (vetted by the HOA attorney) filed with the minutes noticing that Section banning flag poles is no longer enforceable. Something along the lies of:

No Worries Homeowner Association
Policy Resolution Number 2009-01
Relating to the Rights to Display and Fly the American Flag

WHEREAS, Section 1.1 of the Covenants of the No Worries Homeowner Association has been invalidated by Section 33-1808 of the Arizona Revised Statutes titled Flag display; political signs; caution signs; for sale signs; political petitions.

WHEREAS, The law requires an Association to adopt reasonable rules and regulations regarding the placement and manner of display of the American flag, the military flag, the POW/MIA flag, the Arizona state flag or an Arizona Indian nations flag. The association rules may regulate the location and size of flagpoles but shall not prohibit the installation of a flagpole.

WHEREAS, There exists a need for rules covering the proper display and placement of the flags allowed under ARS 33-1808 including flagpoles.

WHEREAS, The Board of Trustees has the power granted in Section 2.2 of the By-Laws to make rules governing the operation of No Worries Homeowner Association.

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Board of Trustees hereby adopts the following rule:

1. The American flag or an official or replica of a flag of the United States army, navy, air force, marine corps or coast guard may be displayed by an association member on that member's property if the American flag or military flag is displayed in a manner consistent with the federal flag code (P.L. 94-344; 90 Stat. 810; 4 United States Code sections 4 through 10).

2. Other flags which are allowed include the POW/MIA flag, the Arizona state flag and an Arizona Indian Nations flag.

3. Flagpoles shall not be higher than twenty (20) feet and shall be set back from any property line at least five (5) feet

Duly adopted at a meeting of the Board of Trustees held: __________________

Motion by: _________________________________

Seconded by: _________________________________

VOTE: YES NO ABSTAIN ABSENT

________________ _______ _____ _________ ________
President

________________ _______ _____ _________ ________
Vice President

________________ _______ _____ _________ ________
Treasurer

________________ _______ _____ _________ ________
Secretary

________________ _______ _____ _________ ________
Member at Large

ATTEST:

___________________________ ______________________
Secretary Date

Resolution effective: ___________________________________________, 2009.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

It should be noted that the AZ flag statute only applies to planned communities. There is no statute applying to condos,so they can continue to ban flags and flagpoles.

JohnB7 (South Carolina)
Posts: 176

Posted:

ALL POLES MUST COMPLY WITH THE (LOCAL) BUILDING CODE !

Usually:

Pole must be no closer than it's 'fall length' to any vehicular passageway.
Pole must be capable of withstanding the areas's wind load.

To meet these requirements requires a VERY expensive installation.

Case Closed

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

John,
Looks like we are in deep trouble John. Several years ago I flew the American flag off my balcony in our condo. Some folks started flying other kinds of flags, such as college flags, etc. BOD says no Flags at all after that. I said, no way, and offered to put up pole at our entrance and fly American Flag. Just followed instructions for installing the pole. Flag is lighted 24/7 and flys proudly all the time. I work cheap and even donated some Flags I had, pole cost was minor. I strongly believe that pole and flag will fly for a long time and doubt any county (in our case) officials are interested in taking it down. It is about twenty feet and Flag as flown is appropriate size.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryA1 on 01/01/2009 8:34 AM
It should be noted that the AZ flag statute only applies to planned communities. There is no statute applying to condos,so they can continue to ban flags and flagpoles.

Mary you're the expert on Arizona but the way I read the statute says they must be allowed:

33-1261. Flag display; for sale signs; political petitions; applicability

A. Notwithstanding any provision in the condominium documents, an association shall not prohibit the outdoor display of any of the following:

1. The American flag or an official or replica of a flag of the United States army, navy, air force, marine corps or coast guard by a unit owner on that unit owner's property if the American flag or military flag is displayed in a manner consistent with the federal flag code (P.L. 94-344; 90 Stat. 810; 4 United States Code sections 4 through 10).

2. The POW/MIA flag.

3. The Arizona state flag.

4. An Arizona Indian nations flag.

B. The association shall adopt reasonable rules and regulations regarding the placement and manner of display of the American flag, the military flag, the POW/MIA flag, the Arizona state flag or an Arizona Indian nations flag. The association rules may regulate the location and size of flagpoles but shall not prohibit the installation of a flagpole.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Glen,

Oops, my mistake! I was thinking of something else. Thx for the head's up. :-)

JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882

Posted:

This can really be confusing. In most condos, the owner owns nothing outside the unit, so this particular law would have little actual effect, since it only applies on "that unit owner's property".

Joe

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RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Joseph,
Speaking of condos, I am sure you are aware of the Limited Common area. Places such as balconies. Also you are probably aware the FCC has ruled that TV dishes can be installed there for the use of the individual unit assigned limited common usage. They also have ruled that does not include Common Property. Therefore, that is reason to believe a Unit owner with a limited assigned common area would have the right to Fly the US Flag and erect a TV Dish if he could get reception, he could not go on roof and erect Dish there.

Not to confuse the issue but there is also some contention that in a condo, the unit owner owns only the "right to occupy the space" inside the unit as designated in the Master deed. When you sell, you sell this right and the same when you buy. This really makes sense, for one very good reason. You carry through the association insurnace against all kinds of hazzards, one being damage to the structure. Suppose you have a hurricane and your unit is damaged and your insurance carries replacement costs. That means the unit will be restored to the original structure which would include all windows, walls floors, etc, etc. Now your homeowner HO6 insurance is strickly contents insurance or damaqe to your unit caused by you or someone else. It does not cover windows or drywall replacement, etc. Some say from the paint in, I agree it gets very confusing.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Robert,

Now that's what I'm talking about. You wanted something done and did it yourself without praise and help. No one can ban the flying of the flag in this country. The Feds say so. Accolades to you for taking on the expense and work yourself. The Navy taught you well. We should all take lessons from you for doing this.

JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882

Posted:

You're right Robert, I was referring to the wording in the AZ law posted earlier. The Federal "Freedom to Fly the American Flag Act" speaks to areas under the control of the owner, which would include "limited common areas", but the AZ law did not address these areas. Wouldn't matter much since the Federal law would supercede, but my comment was that this was adding to the confusion, and even more so, since the Fed law does not address any of the other flages the AZ law mentions. Also, the Federal law allows the boards to establish rules pertaining to the "time, place and manner" of the flag and/or pole.

Joe

Joseph West
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GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Joe, I'll agree the wording of the AZ statute about the flagpole is a little vague. I think in this case the OH legislature did a little better job of defining where the flagpole may be placed but failed to guarantee the right to fly anything other than the American flag.

5311.191 Condominium declaration prohibiting placement of flag unenforceable.

(A) No declaration, bylaw, rule, regulation, or agreement of a condominium property or construction of any of these items by the board of managers of its unit owners association shall prohibit the placement of a flagpole that is to be used for the purpose of displaying, or shall prohibit the display of, the flag of the United States on or within the limited common areas and facilities of a unit owner or on the immediately adjacent exterior of the building in which the unit of a unit owner is located, if the flag is displayed in accordance with any of the following:

(1) The patriotic customs set forth in 4 U.S.C.A. 5-10, as amended, governing the display and use of the flag of the United States;

(2) The recommended flagpole standards set forth in “Our Flag,” published pursuant to S.C.R. 61 of the 105th Congress, 1st Session (1998);

(3) Any federal law, proclamation of the president of the United States or the governor, section of the Revised Code, or local ordinance or resolution.

(B) A declaration, bylaw, rule, regulation, or agreement or the construction of any of these items that violates division (A) of this section is against public policy and unenforceable in any court of this state to the extent it violates that division.

Effective Date: 04-07-2003

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Glen,

I can't find this document to save my soul! I would like the read the flagpole standards.

(2) The recommended flagpole standards set forth in “Our Flag,” published pursuant to S.C.R. 61 of the 105th Congress, 1st Session (1998)

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryA1 on 01/04/2009 6:44 AM
Glen,

I can't find this document to save my soul! I would like the read the flagpole standards.

(2) The recommended flagpole standards set forth in “Our Flag,” published pursuant to S.C.R. 61 of the 105th Congress, 1st Session (1998)

A Google search for "Our Flag" pulls up the most recent document (S.C.R. No. 108 of the 109th Congress) as the second item on the list:

Our Flag

And first on the Google search list is:

Federal Citizen Information Center: Our Flag
which contains the following information:

SIZES OF FLAGS

The size of the flag is determined by the exposed height of the flagpole from which it is flying. The only consideration is for the flag to be in proper proportion to its pole. Flags which fly from angled poles on homes and those which are displayed on standing poles in offices and other indoor displays are usually either 3' x 5' or 4' x 6'. Color guards usually carry flags measuring 4' x 6'. Other recommended sizes are shown in the following table:
Flagpole Height (ft.) Flag Size (ft.)
20 4 x 6
25 5 x 8
40 6 x 10
50 8 x 12
60 10 x 15
70 12 x 18
90 15 x 25
125 20 x 30
200 30 x 40
250 40 x 50

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 01/03/2009 9:03 PM
Joe, I'll agree the wording of the AZ statute about the flagpole is a little vague. I think in this case the OH legislature did a little better job of defining where the flagpole may be placed but failed to guarantee the right to fly anything other than the American flag.

5311.191 Condominium declaration prohibiting placement of flag unenforceable.

(A) No declaration, bylaw, rule, regulation, or agreement of a condominium property or construction of any of these items by the board of managers of its unit owners association shall prohibit the placement of a flagpole that is to be used for the purpose of displaying, or shall prohibit the display of, the flag of the United States on or within the limited common areas and facilities of a unit owner or on the immediately adjacent exterior of the building in which the unit of a unit owner is located, if the flag is displayed in accordance with any of the following:

(1) The patriotic customs set forth in 4 U.S.C.A. 5-10, as amended, governing the display and use of the flag of the United States;

(2) The recommended flagpole standards set forth in “Our Flag,” published pursuant to S.C.R. 61 of the 105th Congress, 1st Session (1998);

(3) Any federal law, proclamation of the president of the United States or the governor, section of the Revised Code, or local ordinance or resolution.

(B) A declaration, bylaw, rule, regulation, or agreement or the construction of any of these items that violates division (A) of this section is against public policy and unenforceable in any court of this state to the extent it violates that division.

Effective Date: 04-07-2003

Glen,

I have a problem with your OH statute in that it states a flag must be displayed IAW the flagpole standards set forth in "Our Flag". All those standards do is state what size flag can be flown from the various size flagpoles. Frankly one can obtain that very info from any retailer selling flag poles. So, does that mean any size flagpole stated in those standards can be flown on a condo members' limited common area? Because the statute does NOT say otherwise!

Frankly I don't see the AZ statute as being vague at all. It plainly states the flag may be displayed on the members' property and goes on to say the assn has the right to regulate the location and size of the flagpole. The only objection I've ever heard mentioned about the statute is that the board has the right to only allow flagpoles on patios (back yard).

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Thx, George. I should have done a google -- I used Yahoo. Reminds me of the "I could have had a V-8" commercial. LOL

JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882

Posted:

Mary, the confusion could come from their statement that:

1. The American flag or an official or replica of a flag of the United States army, navy, air force, marine corps or coast guard by a unit owner on that unit owner's property......

In a condo, patios and decks are usually not the property of the unit owner. It is the association's property, with the owner having an exclusive right to use. Under this law, a condo board could prevent flags from being flown on decks or flag poles from being installed in patio areas. However, the federal flag law would allow the US flag to be flown from those areas, but since it does not address the other flags, an association could ban them. Just a little confusing. The AZ law needs to add the words "or areas which the owner has the exclusive right to use".

Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
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GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Mary it keeps someone and you know they're out there, from trying to mount an 8X12 (or larger) flag from a pole designed to carry a 3x5 or 4x6 flag.

As far as the AZ statute goes, I was just offering my opinion; I thought that was what we did here. IMO in the AZ statute all the power goes to the BOD which is not unreasonable if you have a reasonable BOD but OH's guarantees the right of where they may be placed. Both work, I just in this case prefer mine better.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 01/04/2009 9:02 AM
Mary it keeps someone and you know they're out there, from trying to mount an 8X12 (or larger) flag from a pole designed to carry a 3x5 or 4x6 flag.

We have one of these "sombodies" -- lives right across the street from me, as a matter of fact!

He had a "professionally" installed flag and flagpole. Those are FINGERQUOTES around the 'professionally,' by the way. He's a police officer and knew somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody who has a cousin who sells and installs flags.

His flag was bigger than his van. I don't know the exact size, but the local car dealerships were jealous. . .

Unfortunately, the flagpole was one of those telescoping kind, designed to handle a typical residential-size flag. I think you can pick one up at any reputable flea market.

The flag and pole existed for all of about 2 months.

One big storm, when the flag got even heavier from the rain, with moderately heavy winds, and the pole folded to the ground like a lone pick-up stick.

For the record, we have no restriction on flags or flagpoles in our CC&Rs. In fact, we don't address any lawn ornaments or holiday/seasonal ornaments, either.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Well is sounds like somebody got what they deserved...........maybe.
Maybe, because all Flags of the United States MUST be displayed in accordance with very strict federal laws. I am sure Glen posted this law a time or two. I would not hesitate to inform any party flying the American Flag, of the proper instructions and would insist they follow this law. Not only are they disrespecting their neighbors by forcing this travesty on them they are disrespecting all the people that serves and have served under this Flag. We as a people, should not allow this.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164

Posted:

Whoops!
I may have been in error stating Glen has posted on this, but if you look over this thread, you will see a posting by George that reference Flag size to pole height.

I want to add this site below as a reference and would respectfully ask that all posting here make it a personal resolve to see that each HOA and Condo office have a copy of this code on file. It would further be a good idea that each HOA and Condo add a little note to some of their owners reports that this law exists and will be enforced by the associations.

http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 01/04/2009 9:02 AM
Mary it keeps someone and you know they're out there, from trying to mount an 8X12 (or larger) flag from a pole designed to carry a 3x5 or 4x6 flag.

As far as the AZ statute goes, I was just offering my opinion; I thought that was what we did here. IMO in the AZ statute all the power goes to the BOD which is not unreasonable if you have a reasonable BOD but OH's guarantees the right of where they may be placed. Both work, I just in this case prefer mine better.

Glen,

I know you were just offering your opinion and I was doing the same. I agree the AZ statute leaves a lot up to the board. It would be difficult to place size restriction in statute because not all assn's are the same -- some homes are built on s/d size lots, some may be on larger lots or on acerage. On the other hand, the OH statute doesn't put any restrictions on the size of the flagpole which I believe could create problems. Some people seem to think bigger is better and would opt for the tallest flagpole with the largest flag and would be in compliance with the law. Did you read Michele's response? That's the only problem I have with the OH statute.

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