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EugeneA1 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
There has been controversy regarding the 2012 HOA Board election. Peter (fictitious name) had served for four years as a member of the Enforcement Review Board, a committee of the Board. Peter also served on a committee to organize a community picnic. Peter was also a member of the Nominating Committee this year [2012]. Peter was nominated to run for a Board position, and he received the second highest number of votes (129). Subsequently, it was learned that Peter was not the owner of the house where he lived and, therefore, was not eligible to serve on the Board. In order to serve on the Board you have to be a member of the Association, and only the registered owners of the house may be members of the Association. The outgoing Board decided that Peter was out, and Dan (fictitious name), who was the Secretary for the past four years and who only received 89 votes, would serve in Peter's place.

Neither the outgoing Board nor the newly-elected Board (the remaining members) will address the issue of Peter's ineligibility to serve on the Board. The Association members were told that if we want to challenge the election results, we have to follow the procedure outlined in 720.306 of the Florida statute.

I'm wondering whether or not anyone else thinks, based on what I've said here, that their may be a valid basis for challenging the election results, and if that can be done without resorting to the procedure in 720.306.

Some of us feel that the election results should be voided, and a new election should be held.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Some of us feel that the election results should be voided, and a new election should be held.

Sorry Eugene but if YOUR CC&R's require a person to be a member to serve on the Board and "Peter" isn't a member then he is not eligible to serve. You can hold 100 elections and it would be the same result, he isn't eligible. As far as I can see you have two options:

1. He becomes eligible by being put on the deed.

2. The current members amend the CC&R's to remove the restriction.


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
A couple of questions:

Is Peter just renting his home or is there some family relationship between him that the person named on the deed?

Which of your community documents states that a board member must also be an owner?

Has Peter disputed the board's conclusion that he is not an owner and not eligible to serve on the board?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I say Peter is still eligible to serve on committees and participate in many HOA events. He's just NOT going to be a board member or representing the HOA in an official matter. The board could decide to take the second board vote getter and replace him.

I applaud those who get involved in their HOA in a positive way. It's just Peter may be getting the best of both worlds here. He doesn't have a vote or a membership status but does get to enjoy the results. Hope he doesn't decide to quit participating and keeps up the good work...

Former HOA President
EugeneA1 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
We all agree that Peter is not eligible to serve on the Board. The CCR, or deed restrictions, as we call them, say that only owners can be members. Peter is "renting with an option to buy."

The issue is: the Secretary knew that Peter is not the owner of the house. The Secretary historically encouraged Peter to get involved in HOA activities. The Secretary encouraged Peter to run for office.

No one, not even the Secretary, raised an objection when Peter was nominated. It was only when Peter won a seat on the Board that the Secretary asked the Board's counsel to render an opinion regardng Peter's eligibility.

The Secretary, the keeper of the HOA records, is supposed to know. He had the sense of mind not to let Peter vote in the election; but, he didn't have the sense of mind to object to Peter's eligibility to run for office?

Membership of the different standing Board committees is limited to members of the Association. So, you have to be a homeowner in order to serve on any committee.

Peter has been a committee member for at least four years. Peter attests to the fact that he has voted in every HOA election since he's been living here, while the Secretary attests that Peter has not voted because he's not a member.

Either the Secretary, Dan, knew and said nothing; or the Secretary, Dan, doesn't know what he's doing. Either way, some of us believe that the election should be voided because there are too many unanswered questions, and we believe that the Board, or Dan, is not being forthright in how they are handling the matter.
PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708
Posted:
If he, Peter (not me! ) is not eligible to be on the BoD then he can't be, period.

But that only matters if the members wish to change it.

For ultimately it is up to the members to 'police' the corporation and enforce the documents. No one will 'step in' for you and order Peter off the Bod.

The members will have to iniate action(s) to change this one way or the other...

You can recall any or all the directors responsible.

OR, in a FLa HOA, election issues must go through the arbitration process before court action can be pursued.

If your posted facts are true and correct he (Peter) would be ordered off the BoD and the arbitrator would determine if a new election is to be held or to install the #2 vote getter and have the BoD appoint members to fill any remaining position or some other solution.
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
In our Association a member's spouse is also considered a member. One of our former President's was not on the deed but his wife was listed as the sole owner, thus according to our documents he was eligible to be on the Board and serve as President.

However, there was a problem because he was never voted on by the members and only one lady (Our CCO) mentioned it. As I mentioned in previous post our CCO is right about many things, just not tackful.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Eug

A few questions please.

1. Are you on the BOD?

2. Are those that ran complaining that the results might be quite different were Peter not running?

3. Do I detect some of those seeking a new election might have finished behind Peter and Dan?

4. Without Peter on the BOD and the next vote getter (Dan) installed in place of Peter, would the BOD be full?

5. Does the Treasure accept he made a mistake?

6. Are you accusing the treasurer of knowing full well what he did?

7. What would you like to be seen done?

I would say remove Peter, install Dan, and the BOD reprimand the Treausrer.

Personally I would not take the time nor money to have another election nor take it to mediation. I say move on.

Thanks

EugeneA1 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
1. Are you on the BOD? No.

2. Are those that ran complaining that the results might be quite different were Peter not running? Only one of the candidates would say this.

3. Do I detect some of those seeking a new election might have finished behind Peter and Dan? No.

4. Without Peter on the BOD and the next vote getter (Dan) installed in place of Peter, would the BOD be full? Yes

5. Does the Treasure accept he made a mistake? No.

6. Are you accusing the treasurer of knowing full well what he did? Yes.

7. What would you like to be seen done? I would like to see the Secretary/Treasurer removed from the Board, and barred permanently from serving in any capacity in the HOA; and, I would like to see the election results voided, and a new election held.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
I would like to see the election results voided, and a new election held.

But why??? It was still the top "eligible" vote getter voted onto the Board. And before you start blaming the person who allowed "Peter" to run don't you think "Peter" deserves a smidgen of the blame too? As a serving committeeman hopefully "Peter" bothered to read the CC&R's once or twice and should have known from the get-go that he wasn't eligible to run.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
Any new election you have generates much work for the Secretary. As Secretay of my Association, the fewer elections we have, the less work I have to do. I have plenty of work with the regular duties of a Secetary. Of cours if a special election is needed, I would be willing to do the work, but I think if the election were to vote me out of office, I couldn't help but harbor some bad feelings.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
What does your HOA rely on for its definition of "owner?"

In this case, Peter is in possession and control of the property; he has an interest in the property due to his contract to purchase; he has exercised the rights of the property owner under the declaration; and apparently no other person is seeking to exercise those same rights. The HOA has treated Peter as the owner for years and appointed him to a committee where only owners may serve. The other owners have also regarded Peter as the owner and elected him to the board. I would say there is a stronger case for Peter being an owner than not.

I know of a court opinion involving a used car where the court held that a person becomes the legal owner when the owner-of-record has received payment and surrenders possession to the buyer. I see much the same thing here: the owner-of-record has surrendered his possession to Peter, making Peter the owner.

The question of whether Peter is the owner is one for the courts, not the HOA. Since there is no apparent dispute between the owner-of-record and Peter regarding ownership, I am not sure whether the HOA has standing to challenge Peter's ownership.

How thorough is your attorney's opinion? At least half of all attorney's opinions are wrong. A lawyer's verbal opinion is worthless. A good written opinion should read like a memorandum of points and authorities, citing the relevant statutes and case law.

BTW, my name does not appear on the deed for my property in my POA. I am purchasing the unimproved property under a sales contract and will not receive a deed until it is fully paid for. The Declaration states that a person purchasing property under such a contract is a member.
BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186
Posted:
I wasn't on the Board at the time, but I can think of at least 3 or 4 opinions that the lawyer gave that were not correct. He advised the Board that there was no need to place a lien on on unit (the owner had been killed in a vechicle accident) where the dues were over a year delinquent.

Also years ago, my personal lawyer gave me a problem. We can listen to lawyers but remember their advise is not written in stone.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Eugene

Thank you for answering.

Now some tough love questions.

Is this realy an issue between you and the BOD Secretary?

Do you two have a "history"?

Is your belief/feeling in the overall best interest of your association, versus more personal?

Where you one that ran for the BOD in the election that Peter got elected?

Thanks.

EugeneA1 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Peter is not the owner. All HOA documents were given to the owner. Peter never saw any of the HOA documents. Peter didn't know that he wasn't eligible.

There is no history. I moved into the development in March 2011, and I got involved in HOA activities in November 2011.

There are no issues between the Secretary and me. The issue is the manner in which Peter was declared ineligible.

No one raised an objection until it became advantageous to do so. Dan did not make it on the Board. This was Dan's opportunity, given the distribution of votes among the candidates, to get back on the Board. Dan threw Peter under the bus. He intentional withheld information and as a result, perpetrated a violation of the by-laws and deed restrictions.

Peter didn't know he wasn't eligible to serve on the board. No one told Peter he wasn't eligible. No one said anything about this until AFTER Peter was elected.

It begs the questions: who knew? And why didn't anyone say anything before the election was held?

There are no issues between the Secretary and me, unless you consider ethics to be an issue, in which case there is an issue between the Secretary and me.

BTW, the Dan already has played that card several times in an effort to shift the focus from the election to a personal attack on him. The issue won't go away until the Board, AND DAN, address it in a forthright manner, with honesty and with integrity.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,048
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By EugeneA1 on 04/23/2012 4:10 AM

Peter didn't know he wasn't eligible to serve on the board. No one told Peter he wasn't eligible. No one said anything about this until AFTER Peter was elected.

It begs the questions: who knew? And why didn't anyone say anything before the election was held?

It's possible that nobody knew until someone filed a complaint and the board verified if Peter was an owner.

Even if someone was aware of this at the meeting and the fact that the issue might have been addressed better, the Board did the right thing and should not be condemned for upholding the documents.

Based on your posting, it's apparent that Peter is well liked and respected. If the membership want to have him be eligible to serve at the next election then they need to get together to remove that qualification requirement. This would happen by petitioning the board for a special meeting for the sole purpose of amending that specific article in a specific way.

Hope this helps,

Tim

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
It seems to me, from reading the original post, that the fault with Peter being nominated for a board position in the first place, lies squarely on the nominating committee. And, as I recall, Peter was on that committee. It is the nominating committee's responsibility to verify the eligibility of every candidate they nominate. They failed to do that. They did not do their job.

Typically, a nominating committee nominates only enough candidates to fill the vacant positions. From the original post it appears that there were more candidates than vacancies. I assume, then, that there were nominations from the floor.

To a certain extent, I can understand the desire to invalidate the election and start over. I can also understand how one might conclude that the person with the next highest number of votes (the runner-up, if you will) should be elected. But, that assumes that once Peter is eliminated the results don't change. However, that's not necessarily true. It might also be contrary to common parliamentary procedure.

What about the votes Peter received? If Peter were not on the ballot to begin with, as should have been the case, who would have received the votes that went to Peter? Would those votes have gone to the the person who, under the present circumstances, received the next highest number of votes? Or, would some of those votes have gone to someone else? The answers to those questions cannot be determined after the election that included Peter on the ballot has taken place. You can't change the input parameters and expect the output (result) to be the same.

It also seems to me, from reading the original post, that the type of vote that was taken is known as a plurality vote. A plurality vote is the largest number of votes to be given any candidate or proposition when three or more choices are possible; the candidate or proposition receiving the largest number of votes has a plurality. However, a little known (and often ignored) requirement of a plurality vote is that the person or proposition receiving the plurality must also receive a majority of the votes cast. According to proper parliamentary procedure, "A plurality that is not a majority never chooses a proposition or elects anyone to office, except by virtue of a special rule previously adopted." (RONR) So, if you intend to follow proper parliamentary procedure, Dan must also have a majority of the votes cast to be elected to a board position.

Also, what has not been told is if there were any other candidates who received fewer votes than Dan. To determine what makes sense to do I think we need to know how many board positions were being voted on, how many candidates there were, the total number of votes cast, and the number of votes each candidate received.

To be practical, what I would suggest is that if the governing documents and/or state law doesn't provide any guidance on how to proceed from this point, put it in the hands of the homeowners. If the majority of the homeowners believe that there should be a new election, let them petition for a special meeting to void the previous election and hold a new one.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I agree with what Bruse said:

*****To be practical, what I would suggest is that if the governing documents and/or state law doesn't provide any guidance on how to proceed from this point, put it in the hands of the homeowners. If the majority of the homeowners believe that there should be a new election, let them petition for a special meeting to void the previous election and hold a new one.*******

Also if the majority of the homeowners do not care then so be it even if, as you claim, there were shenanigans.

I think most agree Peter cannot serve on the BOD.
EugeneA1 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Thank you all for you input.

This has been a learning experience for me. All of you have come up with valid comments and questions, and interesting insight, some of which I had already thought about and considered before I came to this forum. Also, your comments and questions have helped me in formulating a statement to give to the arbitrator, if we go the arbitration route, who is not familiar with the circumstances, and may propose or ask the same questions and make the same comments.

Perhaps arbitration is the way to go to settle the matter once and for all. I don't believe that the controversy will be settled any time soon without some kind of third part intervention.

I am also reminded of the caveat: Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Make sure your documents and laws allow the mediation/arbritration option. It is kind of tricky. Some mediation means one can NEVER go to court and ONLY resolved by mediation. Since your are a HOA, appearances in court may be required by a lawyer only. (There is the option of a competent board member but who is going to support that idea much?) This is an expense ALL members will be paying to support. Is it truly worth the expense and time to get the results your looking for?

A HOA is managed by it's members for it's members...So the solution shouldn't be found by some outside source but within. Why go outside and spend all of this money/time just to enforce something that is an internal issue? I'd see no problem with letting the second vote getter get the board position and the others run again next election. This would happen in real life anyways instead of tossing the baby out with the bath water...

Former HOA President
PeterD3 (Florida)
Posts: 708
Posted:
In Florida, arbitration is required BEFORE election disputes can be argued in court.

http://www.apmnews.org/arbitration-vs-mediation-for-homeowners-associations-dispute-resolution/
EugeneA1 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
It appears that our only option is arbitration, if we decide to go that route, and if the inertia within the Association to institute a recall remains intact.

A small group of homeowners are adamant about righting the wrong that has been done. We believe that nothing illegal has been done. At least it appears so on the surface. For that reason we are reluctant to spend any money to bring an action against the HOA, the Board, or against Dan.

The Board has already gotten an opinion of counsel that there it is not necessary to invalidate the election, unless we want to invalidate it, and that Peter is not eligible to serve on the Board.

We don't believe that counsel is aware of Peter's involvement in the HOA, or even if that would have had any bearing on the opinion of counsel.

We don't feel comfortable letting things stay as they are. At this point we're not ready to move forward with anything, other than prompting the Board itself to examine the propriety, or impropriety, as the case may be, of what happened.

We have decided that we're not letting it drop, that we will continue to hammer away until the Board addresses the matter in a forthright manner, and with candor. And then we'll have to decide whether or not the Board's response is satisfactory.

As I said earlier, perhaps third part intervention, whether it's arbitration or mediation, may be the only way to settle the matter.

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