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Subject: Open Board Meetings
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ArtN
(Massachusetts)

Posts:48


05/09/2008 4:27 PM  
I have asked about open board meeting before, but I need some help from you all. Our Board of Trustees do not hold open board meetings and all of the Associations of past have never had any. Our State of Masschusetts does not have a mandatoring law regarding Condo Associations. What I need is some good reasons I can present to the board asking them to hold Open Board Meetings. Our communications between Board and Owner are awful.

I have talked to a few Property Management companys who insist their managed Associations hold open meeting, simply for those reasons, communications. Our Board seems to want to keep things in the dark.

Thanks for your help, let me have some convincing reasons.

ArtN
SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:5202


05/09/2008 6:15 PM  
IF YOUR STATE LAWS OR CCRS OR BYLAWS dont' deal with this - In general, the body that is meeting (the Board) is the only persons that are supposed to be in attendance. It's their business meeting.

Guests can be invited, OR the invitation can be extended for general members to attend during a portion of the meeting (ours is the "member input" part at the beginning of each meeting) but they don't have to.

You can request to see the minutes, but again, they don't have to let you see them.

The board should report to the members on a regular basis. Do you have a newsletter committee that can help make sure the members know what's going on? You say communication is a problem. Why? No newsletter?
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


05/09/2008 6:16 PM  
heres's my best reason:

You run a wonderful business, of which i am a shareholder, a pretty significant shareholder. I feel it is part of my responsibility, as a significant shareholder, to understand how my investment is being managed, so that i can invest wisely and be a more educated member of the business. Allowing all your shareholders to view the management of the business, with the exception of a few minor legal matters, is a very standard conduct of all businesses in America. Is there some reason that we do not operate our business in the model of most other successful businesses in America?

The second tactic I would try is to read my by laws and CC&R's, and know them better than the board. I suspect there is wording in them that requires the board conduct the meetings openly.
SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:5202


05/09/2008 6:23 PM  
Here's my reason for not minding "closed" meetings:

We know it can't be mass governance. So, you were elected by the members to act in the best interest of the HOA. You have an approved budget which you must follow. You have a Reserve Fund that has a 25 year plan to oversee. You have bylaws, rules and regulations and procedures to follow. You are obligated to communicate with the members about what issues you are working on, what has been completed, and what is expected to happen in the future. You will report to the members at the Annual Membership Meeting. Thanks for volunteering.
ArtN
(Massachusetts)

Posts:48


05/09/2008 6:58 PM  
Thank you for your response, we do not have a newsletter, we (as a owner Group) are willing to put one together which is in discussion stage presently. We had to almost badger the Board to post the Board meeting minutes and we now are trying to get the Board of return the financial status to the minutes, of which the Board had voted not post them in the minutes. (makes no sense to us) our By Laws do not state anyhing requiring the Board to allow open meetings, but do allow the Unit owners to petition the Board for a Special Owners meetings with 30% of unit owners signatures, (which finally something we have most recently done). The reason for me to ask for some persuasive points for Open meetings, so I can present a request to the Board to adopt. This Board is not organized, they have voted to adopt Roberts Rules and have not follow it at all according to some Board members. I hope I have drawn a picture of what is happening. There is much more but it would take too long.
ArtN
(Massachusetts)

Posts:48


05/09/2008 6:58 PM  
Thank you for your response, we do not have a newsletter, we (as a owner Group) are willing to put one together which is in discussion stage presently. We had to almost badger the Board to post the Board meeting minutes and we now are trying to get the Board of return the financial status to the minutes, of which the Board had voted not post them in the minutes. (makes no sense to us) our By Laws do not state anyhing requiring the Board to allow open meetings, but do allow the Unit owners to petition the Board for a Special Owners meetings with 30% of unit owners signatures, (which finally something we have most recently done). The reason for me to ask for some persuasive points for Open meetings, so I can present a request to the Board to adopt. This Board is not organized, they have voted to adopt Roberts Rules and have not follow it at all according to some Board members. I hope I have drawn a picture of what is happening. There is much more but it would take too long.
MaryA1


Posts:0


05/10/2008 6:55 AM  
Art,

Holding open board meetings promotes transparancy of board actions. Communication is a key ingredient to a well-run HOA. But, even if the HOA does communicate its actions to the members through a newsletter or reporting at an annual meeting, holding open board meetings is still encouraged as that allows members to be a party to policy, motivations and other important factual information involved in the board members' decisions. In other words, the boards decisions are easier to understand if the members know first hand how they were arrived at. Hats off to you, Art, for wanting your board meetings to be open to the members of your assn. I certainly hope you are successful in your efforts as, in IMO, it will go a long way to promote a more healthy atmosphere in your assn.

AZ has an HOA state law requiring open meetings in which the members are not only allowed to attend but also have the right to speak b/4 the board takes action on specific issues.

As an afterthought, you might want to print out the responses in favor of open meetings to read to your board members in support of your efforts. Sometimes just hearing a supporting defense of an issue from a disinterested person may cause the naysayer to change their mind.
JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:967


05/10/2008 12:07 PM  
I'll take Susan's side on this one. Board meetings are just that - members of the Board meeting. Our ByLaws say we should do so at last 3 times a fiscal year, but generally, we simply get together if there is a need to discuss or accomplish something. We only have 21 SFDs and since going self-managed earlier this year, we've met twice to get things up and running. All of the homeowners know they can contact one, all of us, or the entire community via e-mail (everyone, thankfully, has e-mail addresses) if an issue arises. For instance, recently one of the owners contacted me (S/T and writer of our Updates) re: setting some guideline for how long folks should be allowed to leave up holiday yard decorations. Fair question. So I e-mailed the other Board members, we came to a conclusion, wrote back to the owner, and will notify membership next November of our conclusion. Everybody's happy. As opposed to notifying all owners of a Board meeting where we plan to discuss the issue? Nah. All most owners want is a smooth operation that doesn't require any effort on their parts. Our annual is next month, and if we get 3 warm bodies aside from the Board, I'll be passing out smelling salts! Communication, however, is our key to soothe the natives. Especially giving a running account of ALL receipts & expenses in our Updates issued maybe every 2 months. 8 bucks for a sheet of stamps? You betcha. We're taking care of you, kids, and not charging for it. Everybody's happy. Also, sometimes the Board discusses items that are best not made public. Let us do our job, and be thankful you don't have the burden, is the subjective message. No complaints thus far.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


05/10/2008 12:09 PM  
Art while I can see why a small BOD might not want their meetings open to the public if not required, especially if they're being held in someone's home. EVERYTHING they approve should be communicated to the community in a timely manor. If Massachusetts laws covering HOA's are silent on this matter you could try searching the states corporation laws.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
BrendaS2
(Massachusetts)

Posts:2


05/10/2008 12:56 PM  
Massachusetts does have an open/closed meeting law. check out Senate bill no 769 an ammendment to chapter 183a of the general laws section 23...Unless otherwise specified in this section, the meeting of the board of directors shall be made available to the public and board shall provide documentation about said meeting, send notices of said meeting and provide miniutes of the previous meetings.
Hope this helps I had to use it myself on our board. There is more to it it list conditions for a closed meeting and more. Also Mass general law 183a Condonimiums has been ammended on 11 other issues since June 2007. A very interesting ammendment puts all condo boards under the control of the attorney General.
BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:2535


05/10/2008 1:34 PM  
Posted By BrianB on 05/09/2008 6:16 PM
heres's my best reason:

You run a wonderful business, of which i am a shareholder, a pretty significant shareholder. I feel it is part of my responsibility, as a significant shareholder, to understand how my investment is being managed, so that i can invest wisely and be a more educated member of the business. Allowing all your shareholders to view the management of the business, with the exception of a few minor legal matters, is a very standard conduct of all businesses in America. Is there some reason that we do not operate our business in the model of most other successful businesses in America?

The second tactic I would try is to read my by laws and CC&R's, and know them better than the board. I suspect there is wording in them that requires the board conduct the meetings openly.




Neither General Motors nor IBM, nor any of the other thousands of corporations in America, I am sure, hold open meetings of their Boards of Directors where shareholders routinely attend. They have annual shareholder meetings and communicate through annual reports to the stockholders. Do you own stock in any American corporations? When was the last time you received a notice of a board meeting?

If we ran our HOA "business" in the same manner as the "model of most other successful businesses in America", homeowners would not be invited to attend.

As Susan stated, unless the state laws or the CCRs or bylaws require board meetings to be open, then the only members who have a right to attend are the members of the body that is meeting; namely, board members. That has been accepted parliamentary practice for over a century.

I am not stating a position for or against open board meetings. Frankly, I am neutral on the subject. I am merely stating facts.
BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:2535


05/10/2008 1:55 PM  
Brenda,

Are you referring to an actual law or a proposed bill? You refer to "Senate bill no 769" which leads me to believe it is the latter. Usually, in State legislatures (most of which use Mason's Manual of Legislative Practice), proposed bills carry a designation referring to the house of origin, such as "SB-300" or "HB-5024", etc. A bill, once passed by both houses and signed by the governor, then often is referred to as "Public Act XXX" or someting similar. "Senate bill no 769" leads me to believe it has not yet been passed.
ArtN
(Massachusetts)

Posts:48


05/10/2008 2:07 PM  
Bruce, I understand your position regarding Corporations, but do not understand your position on being neutral on Condo Associations Open Meetings. State law in Massachusetts mandate that all Government agencies hold Open Meetings for the public, is what you are telling me the way I understand you to say, the owners of interest in the property that the Board Represents, that have a Fiduicary duty to, should not listen to proceedings where decsiions are being made on their behalf.

I apologize, as I just to not buy that theory. All three bodies, Corporation, Government Agency and Condo Associations are totally different. Stockholders, own a very small portion of the Corporation and can sell each or part anytime, the Governmental agency is repondsible to the Tax Payers, so their meetings should be open. Also the Condominium Associations unit owners have a direct interest. Boards members are respondsible to each and all unit owners as to how they spend their interests.

I hope I have made my point. When someone handles others monies why shouldn't they communicate what decisions they are making, within the By Laws of the Association and common good.

Thanks for you input.

ArtN
BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:2535


05/10/2008 2:12 PM  
Brenda,

I answered my own question. The bill did not pass.

Senate bill 769 proposed to amend Chapter 128 of the General Laws of Massachusetts to add Section 23 requiring open board meetings. It was proposed in the fall of 2007. As of March 31, 2008, there is no Section 23 in Chapter 128. I see no further action on this bill.

Many bills are proposed by state legislators (any state) during the session. Very few of them get much farther than the proposal stage, and even fewer ever make it to the senate or house floor where they get voted on. Bills usually go through one or more committees (sometimes, several) before they ever make it to the floor for a vote. Most bills are killed in committee (or simply die by not being acted on by the committee).
ArtN
(Massachusetts)

Posts:48


05/10/2008 2:13 PM  
Brenda, please contact me via my email [email protected] regarding bill 769 which is in committee at least it was up until a few months ago, which has been taken out for investigation.

Please send me an email for discussion.

ArtN
BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:2535


05/10/2008 3:19 PM  
Art,

You said "State law in Massachusetts mandate that all Government agencies hold Open Meetings for the public."

A condo association is not a government agency. That argument is irrelevant.

The Senate bill Brenda referred to did not pass, as near as I can tell.

Although, I say I am neutral, I really don't see the point of having open board meetings, but I DO believe that communication of what happens at board meetings is necessary. Personally, as both a homeowner and a board member, I can work either way.

With regard to open board meetings:

1. If there is an open forum when a homeowner can speak, then a homeowner could address his or her concerns on any upcoming issue to the board. At this point, though, the homeowners may have no idea how the board members may feel or how they intend to vote, so they may not feel it is necessary to speak until they hear more about the issue and how board members are leaning. Then, it may be too late (see 2, below). Besides, the homeowners could always express their opinions on any upcoming matter to board members in advance of the board meeting. There's no need to be there to do that.

2. Even where open board meetings are mandated, once debate has begun, I don't believe a homeowner attending the meeting has the right to interrupt the meeting to speak. A homeowner becomes "a fly on the wall." Even at meetings of your local or state government, you can attend, but you can't interrupt debate to speak. (In Connecticut, any citizen can attend any hearing and place his/her name on the agenda and speak at that time.)

3. The homeowner has no right to vote at a board meeting.

4. A disruptive homeowner can be asked to leave the meeting. If he or she refuses, the board may have no choice but to vote to postpone all items on the agenda and adjourn the meeting. This would be unfair to other homeowners.

5. A board is elected to act for the homeowners. For the homeowners to be heard and to be able to influence EVERY item on the agenda at a board meeting is meaningless. You might as well conduct all business at meetings of all the homeowners and let everybody vote. There's no need for separate board meetings at all except for possible "executive session" topics. If you are going to micromanage the board members, just change your documents to elect officers instead of board members and conduct all business in general meetings of the entire membership. In practice, that's what you are doing anyway.

6. Once the board has debated an issue and voted on it, what do you do if you don't like the way the vote turns out? Object? Whether you're at the board meeting or not, it's too late then, isn't it?

So, other than the issue of time (kowing WHAT happens WHEN in happens) I don't see what is gained by the homeowner by being present at a board meeting. Of course, that is PROVIDING that the board is good at communicating to the homeowners with timely results (ie, the minutes) of the board meeting.

Oh, there might be one other thing. You may want to know what is said. It doesn't matter what is said. All that counts is what the board does. After the vote, whatever has been said is water under the bridge. Maybe the board is doing something behind your back. Everything they do should be in the minutes, unless it deals with private matters, and the minutes of executive sessions (yes, there should be minutes of such sessions) are kept separately. So,I guess that becomes a matter of trust. If you don't trust your board members, elect someone you do trust, or run for the board yourself. Or, you could just go with #5 above.

At our HOA we have a bulletin board at our cubhouse where the minutes of each board meeting are posted. The minutes are prepared by the secretary (me) immediately after the meeting and circulated to all board members for tentative approval (rather than waiting for the next executive board meeting). They are then posted on the clubhouse bulletin board so they are available for everyone to read. Any issues remaining open are so indicated in the minutes and homeowners can contact any board member if they have questions or comments.
ArtN
(Massachusetts)

Posts:48


05/10/2008 7:54 PM  
Hi Bruce, I agree with 1 thru 6, what you say is absolutely true, but we are dealing with a board without the knowledge of understanding their duties. If you were on our Board, I believe there would not be need for Open Meetings, as you understand the process of communications. I think I can explain our situation in the next few words. Our Secretary, takes notes of the meetings, then inturn sends them to the Management Company, who take her notes and types them up, (of course there is interpretation at this point),Management Company gal sends copy's to each Board member for their approval, when it comes back to her, there could be corrections or additions, the final minutes are typed up, delivered to Board Members and a copy is placed on the Bulletin Board for owners to view, without Financial information. Last month the board decided not to include the financial status as posted in prior minutes, etc. We need Open Board Meeting, at least someone could ask questions.

Regarding the bill 769, you are correct it looks like it will be buried, Mass. Legislature at work.

ArtN
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


05/10/2008 8:12 PM  
Posted By BruceF1 on 05/10/2008 1:34 PM

Neither General Motors nor IBM, nor any of the other thousands of corporations in America, I am sure, hold open meetings of their Boards of Directors where shareholders routinely attend. They have annual shareholder meetings and communicate through annual reports to the stockholders. Do you own stock in any American corporations? When was the last time you received a notice of a board meeting?

If we ran our HOA "business" in the same manner as the "model of most other successful businesses in America", homeowners would not be invited to attend.

As Susan stated, unless the state laws or the CCRs or bylaws require board meetings to be open, then the only members who have a right to attend are the members of the body that is meeting; namely, board members. That has been accepted parliamentary practice for over a century.

I am not stating a position for or against open board meetings. Frankly, I am neutral on the subject. I am merely stating facts.




I own stock in many American (and foreign) corporations. I would have to say that I get an invitation or notice of a board meeting about once every 3 to 5 weeks from some corporation or another that i own stock in. maybe i am unusual in that, maybe I pick my stock ownership differently, but i invest in companies with very transparent communication practices.
BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:2535


05/11/2008 5:36 AM  
Posted By BrianB on 05/10/2008 8:12 PM
Posted By BruceF1 on 05/10/2008 1:34 PM

Neither General Motors nor IBM, nor any of the other thousands of corporations in America, I am sure, hold open meetings of their Boards of Directors where shareholders routinely attend. They have annual shareholder meetings and communicate through annual reports to the stockholders. Do you own stock in any American corporations? When was the last time you received a notice of a board meeting?

If we ran our HOA "business" in the same manner as the "model of most other successful businesses in America", homeowners would not be invited to attend.

As Susan stated, unless the state laws or the CCRs or bylaws require board meetings to be open, then the only members who have a right to attend are the members of the body that is meeting; namely, board members. That has been accepted parliamentary practice for over a century.

I am not stating a position for or against open board meetings. Frankly, I am neutral on the subject. I am merely stating facts.




I own stock in many American (and foreign) corporations. I would have to say that I get an invitation or notice of a board meeting about once every 3 to 5 weeks from some corporation or another that i own stock in. maybe i am unusual in that, maybe I pick my stock ownership differently, but i invest in companies with very transparent communication practices.



Brian,

I find that very interesting. Are you certain these are not invitations to shareholder meetings?

I find it difficult to imagine any corporation holding regular board meetings (say, once a month) where all shareholders would be invited to attend. Board meetings are typically held in conference rooms. I can't imagine a conference room large enough to accomodate any significant number of shareholders should they decide to attend. To accomodate that number of people, the corporation would have to have an auditorium or conference facility on premises. I can't imagine a corporation renting such a facility on a regular basis. Some corporations (where state laws and corporate bylaws permit) hold their board meetings by teleconference. I don't see how shareholders can partake in that type of meeting unless the meetings are televised and presented on screens large enough for an audience to see.

Perhaps only a certain class of shareholders is invited to attend board meetings. Do you own any preferred stock?

I would certainly be interested in knowing which corporations you are referring to and more about them. They might be worth adding to my portfolio.
BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:2535


05/11/2008 6:18 AM  
Art,

I suppose having the management company do the work of typing up the minutes is one way to do it. The management company is hired to take the workload off the officers.

However, it is the secretary who is responsible for the minutes. Here is how we do it:

As the secretary, I actually prepare a draft of the minutes, based on the proposed agenda which is sent to board members in advance, PRIOR to the meeting. How can I do this? Easy. The meeting follows a prescribed order of business (opening, roll call, reading of the minutes, officer's reports, property manager's report, including incoming and outgoing correspondence, unfinished business, new business, discussion, adjournment). As you can see, much of the meeting is "bookkeeping" and, except for the details of reports and how the votes are going to go, the minutes can easily be prepared in advance. I already have copies of all the correspondence and the property manager's report, and I already know all of the items to come up for discussion under unfinished business (simply because those items were left over from a prior meeting). I also know some of the items to come up under new business because they are either new items that are brought up by the MC (such as contracts for review) or board members have already prepared their proposals in writing and distributed them to all the board members.

Then, during the meeting, I simply make notes on the draft minutes, filling in the details, noting the exact wording of any resolutions to be voted on, and any amendments to the resolutions, and adding any information that I did not have in advance.

After the meeting, I can quickly edit the draft minutes I prepared earlier, using the notes from the meeting. The final draft is then sent by email to all the board members and the MC (just as a temporary file copy). The board members respond by email (sent to all board members) with their comments, corrections, or approval. I incorporate the corrections and send out another copy to all board members. After three days, if no board member responds with any additional corrections, I change the word "draft" on the minutes to "approved" and send out a final copy to the board members, and a copy gets posted on the clubhouse bulletin board.

At the next board meeting, we note under "reading of the minutes" that the minutes of the last board meeting were previously circulated and approved (any board member can object at that time), and a signed, hard copy of the minutes is given to the property manager to be included in the minute book at the MC's office, along with our other files. Other that receiving copies that we prepare, the MC plays no active role in the preparation of the minutes.

Our treasurer prepares a separate spreadsheet on the financials that gets posted on the bulletin board along with the minutes.

It's all a matter of organization. Of course, a word processor helps. I begin the draft of each meeting's minutes by taking a copy of the minutes from a prior meeting, to use as a template, and simply change the details in each section.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


05/11/2008 6:30 AM  
Art if I can try to cut through the confusion here. Is the big problem not that the BOD meetings are closed but that they've stopped sharing the financials? If it's the financials they have a duty to provide them upon request. Now they can charge a reasonable fee for copying and perhaps postage but they have to provide them.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
ArtN
(Massachusetts)

Posts:48


05/11/2008 6:42 AM  
GlenL, thanks for your input, the confusion is the lack of organization of an egotistical board member or members who do not belong, yes I understand they can be removed without cause, there is more to our story. I would like to see open meeting with hopes unit owners could give the Board some insight of what they really would like to see. Most folks here on HOA are organized and are working for the good of their Associations.
ArtN
(Massachusetts)

Posts:48


05/11/2008 6:47 AM  
BruceF1, you are my kind of guy........If we could get our Secretary thinking along those organized lines, it would help, in fact if the entire Board could think, ORGANIZATION WOW! Thanks, you are most helpful. I just as soon not have Open Board Meetings, but have Quarterly Owners meetings, which would be best way to go. I am trying the Open Meeting pitch first with hope to negiotiate the Qtr. Meetings.

Thanks again for you input,

ArtN
BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:2535


05/11/2008 7:00 AM  
Art,

Thanks for your kind response. By the way, we do have periodic special meetings with the homeowners for budget updates.
WinstonH2
(Arizona)

Posts:14


05/15/2008 7:24 PM  
Can you direct me to AZ's state law requiring open HOA meetings?

Thanks
WinstonH2
(Arizona)

Posts:14


05/15/2008 7:24 PM  
Can you direct me to AZ's state law requiring open HOA meetings?

Thanks
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


05/15/2008 10:12 PM  
amazing thing Google... first link on the list when i typed in
Arizona open meeting HOA law

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/33/01804.htm&Title=33&DocType=ARS

MaryA1


Posts:0


05/16/2008 2:56 AM  
Winston,

The open meeting law for condos is 33-1248 and 33-1804 for planned communities. Are you aware of SB1019 which amends the OML? Please take a look at it, too. I'm sure you will like what you see. It sailed thru the Senate and passed the House HSPR committee by a unanimous vote but now is being held by the H. Rules Comm. Chair. Only the House can hold bills in Rules for partisan or political reasons!! If you have any question about the bill please contact me @ [email protected] I am the author of the bill which is being sponsored by Sen. Harper.
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