Get 1 year of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Wednesday, October 27, 2021











HOATalk is a free service of Community123.com:

Easy to use website tools to help your board
Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.
Subject: Homeowner "gifts" her home
Prev Next
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Author Messages
DeborahK6


Posts:0


06/26/2021 8:15 AM  
We have rental restriction of two rentals per year and 1 month minimum. We allow Relative/friends to stay for any length of time.

We have an owner in our community who admits to "gifting" the use of her home to the missionaries in her church. She claims she is not taking any mney from them. But she does hire a cleaner to come in after the "friends" leave. We do not know who is paying for the cleaner.

This owner hands in a Relative/Friend form which does state that there is no rent money involved, signed by both owner and "friend", and has "friends" coming and going, frequently, to the annoyance of her neighbors.

This has been going on for about 10 years and the HOA Board has been unable to do nothing to remedy this situation.

Because she does this frequently during one year, we feel that she is actually renting the property.

Has anyone come across this problem in their HOA? We are at a loss of what we can do.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1429


06/26/2021 11:16 AM  
I hold a special place in by bowels for people that tap dance around rules and regulation. Are the people being gifted the use of the home causing trouble in the community? If not let it go. May not be worth the time, money and energy to pursuit this.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11539


06/26/2021 11:31 AM  
Posted By LetA on 06/26/2021 11:16 AM
I hold a special place in by bowels for people that tap dance around rules and regulation. Are the people being gifted the use of the home causing trouble in the community? If not let it go. May not be worth the time, money and energy to pursuit this.



Sound advice.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2475


06/26/2021 11:46 AM  
May not be worth it to pursue, but it may be worthwhile to run this by the HOA's attorney if you can do so without having to pay an arm and a leg for legal work.

The purpose of a rental restriction is not to stop homeowners from making money by renting out their homes - it's to prevent the issues associated with a constant stream of transients. The owner may not be charging rent, but is the church compensating her in any way? The church is using the property as an adjunct to its own facilities and to support its activities. In my view - although I'm sure the law says otherwise - this is more akin to running a business on HOA property than a true rental situation. The fact that the owner claims she isn't being paid *by the missionaries* is beside the point.

My usual advice to people who have issues with "tenants" is vigorous enforcement of the CC&Rs. If the missionaries violate any of the CC&Rs, document the violation, notify the owner, hold hearings, and start the fining process. You want to transfer the aggravation to the person who's causing it and make the situation more trouble than its worth.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2475


06/26/2021 11:55 AM  
On second thought... since this owner is getting already getting cute, anyone want to bet that she'd play the Fair Housing "discrimination" card if the HOA started to fine her for violations?

I agree with LetA - people like this give me heartburn.
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/26/2021 12:23 PM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/26/2021 11:55 AM
On second thought... since this owner is getting already getting cute, anyone want to bet that she'd play the Fair Housing "discrimination" card if the HOA started to fine her for violations?
You mean religious discrimination? If you were an attorney forced to make the best argument you could that this owner is being discriminated on the basis of religion, what would this look like? All I can come up with:

"My client is being discriminated against based on her religion, because her religion requires her to provide use of her home regularly to fellow missionaries. It's my client's church's tithe."

If I were an attorney not interested in frivolous arguments, even if the client offered me a lot of money, and assuming no such church requirement exists, I do not think I'd agree to represent this HOA owner.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10534


06/26/2021 12:28 PM  
Honestly, who cares as long as the dues are being paid? If not, then it's an HOA issue. If so, then it's an owner issue.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/26/2021 12:42 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/26/2021 12:28 PM
Honestly, who cares as long as the dues are being paid? If not, then it's an HOA issue. If so, then it's an owner issue.
Mark this down as one vote in favor of rental units at HOAs and COAs, covenants be darned.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8620


06/26/2021 12:44 PM  
Are you on the Board, Deborah? I can see how the r frequent comings & goings, maybe a truck with some possessions, etc. would be plenty annoying.

What donor CC&Rs say, if anything, about using homes for "Transient purposes?" Transient, as Cathy hints at, is the key word. Ours forbid it-- no rent/lease/monies are mentioned. We, for other reasons cannot limit the definition of "transient purposes" to longer than 30 days.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2475


06/26/2021 1:04 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/26/2021 12:23 PM
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/26/2021 11:55 AM
On second thought... since this owner is getting already getting cute, anyone want to bet that she'd play the Fair Housing "discrimination" card if the HOA started to fine her for violations?
You mean religious discrimination? If you were an attorney forced to make the best argument you could that this owner is being discriminated on the basis of religion, what would this look like? All I can come up with:

"My client is being discriminated against based on her religion, because her religion requires her to provide use of her home regularly to fellow missionaries. It's my client's church's tithe."

If I were an attorney not interested in frivolous arguments, even if the client offered me a lot of money, and assuming no such church requirement exists, I do not think I'd agree to represent this HOA owner.



I was thinking that if the HOA tried to fine for violations by the missionaries, the home's owner would claim that she's being discriminated against for her religion. In this case the HOA would need evidence that they enforce the CC&Rs across the board and are not singling out one person. The homeowner's argument wouldn't have to make legal sense, just that she'd be likely to try it.

I'm not part of that demographic, so I don't know if certain religions expect their members to open their homes to people who need accommodations. To the best of my knowledge I've never come across it - but it's a reasonable scenario of the congregation in question doesn't own the facilities to put up people overnight.

Glad I'm not on that board. If all the coming and going is truly impacting the neighbors, how can the board ignore it? But it seems like a bit of a minefield. (If this were my part of the world, one of the neighbors would put up a For Sale by Owner sign and the offending homeowner would have 5 offers by the end of the day.../grin)
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1429


06/26/2021 1:08 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/26/2021 12:42 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/26/2021 12:28 PM
Honestly, who cares as long as the dues are being paid? If not, then it's an HOA issue. If so, then it's an owner issue.
Mark this down as one vote in favor of rental units at HOAs and COAs, covenants be darned.





This is a p1$$1ng match I would not want to get involved in. . A.) There's a national chlorine shortage and B.) I'm too cheap to buy the Farmer John waders needed for this mess.

JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11539


06/26/2021 1:29 PM  
Posted By LetA on 06/26/2021 1:08 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 06/26/2021 12:42 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/26/2021 12:28 PM
Honestly, who cares as long as the dues are being paid? If not, then it's an HOA issue. If so, then it's an owner issue.
Mark this down as one vote in favor of rental units at HOAs and COAs, covenants be darned.





This is a p1$$1ng match I would not want to get involved in. . A.) There's a national chlorine shortage and B.) I'm too cheap to buy the Farmer John waders needed for this mess.




Good advice.

MikeB23
(Louisiana)

Posts:54


06/29/2021 10:03 AM  
Sounds like someone is upset by two boys in white shirts coming and going on bicycles.

Part of the LDS culture is you serve the Church for two years. You have to pay the Church for this privilege. The owner most likely feels she is contributing to her Church. Interfering would be a very dicey proposition, especially if the missionaries were following all the rules of the HOA.
DeborahK6


Posts:0


06/29/2021 12:53 PM  
I do understand about the LDS, but this has been going ton for over 10 years.

And the issue is not the fact that she may be gifting her home. The issue is that it seems that she is renting, gaining income, against the rules. Keep in mind, that other owners lose money because they follow the HOA restrictions, and they don't appreciate it when one owner profits by illegal renter.

We are a very quiet elderly community. We are not gated. Our homes are attached and the courtyard is shared. Her neighbors have to put up with different people going in and out, noise, and rules that sometimes are not followed, because they do not know the rules.

We don't believe they are missionaries most of the time, if not all the time.

We believe they are renters.

From the comments, I realize now that this is not something that has an easy solution, but I sincerely appreciate your comments and willingness to try to help.

Thank you.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:1040


06/30/2021 7:28 PM  
I don't understand what the problem is. They claim that they are allowing friends to use their home and you have no evidence to the contrary. For all intents and purposes, there is no violation.
MikeB23
(Louisiana)

Posts:54


07/01/2021 5:12 PM  
Your problem is "it seems." Do you have evidence, or are you just unhappy? Have you asked one of the missionaries if they are paying rent?
DeborahK6


Posts:0


07/01/2021 6:33 PM  
we don't think they are missionaries. Missionaries do not pay rent.
Yes, some of them have said that they are renters.
But then the owner just says they misspoke. we can't get any concrete proof, that's the problem.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10534


07/01/2021 6:43 PM  
Again did I miss the part of "Are the dues being paid"? Why else would a HOA need to be involved? Paid dues and adhering to the rules is all you need in a HOA.

Former HOA President
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2475


07/02/2021 5:16 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/01/2021 6:43 PM
Again did I miss the part of "Are the dues being paid"? Why else would a HOA need to be involved? Paid dues and adhering to the rules is all you need in a HOA.



"The rules" are the issue. If there is a rental restriction in the community, then it's the board's job to enforce it. I do agree that this can be a losing battle, which is why I'd suggested earlier that the board concentrate on other possible violations resulting from the alleged rentals (noise, parking, etc.) and making sure there aren't any gaps in the HOA's insurance.
PatJ1
(North Carolina)

Posts:254


07/02/2021 5:41 AM  
OP has left the building.

Board members are volunteers. Many have no idea what they're doing. Educate them. Don't beat them up.
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Homeowner "gifts" her home



Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.







General Legal Notice:  The content of forum messages are from the posting member and have not been reviewed nor endorsed by HOATalk.com.  Messages posted by HOATalk or other members are for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice and do not constitute an attorney-client relationship.  Readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel.  HOATalk is not a licensed attorney, CPA, tax advisor, financial advisor or any other licensed professional.  HOATalk accepts ads from sponsors but does not verify sponsor qualifications nor endorse/guarantee any sponsor's product or service.
Legal Notice For Messages Posted by Sponsoring Attorneys: This message has been prepared by the sponsoring attorney for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Readers of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send any sponsoring attorney confidential information unless you speak with the sponsoring attorney or an attorney from the sponsoring attorney’s firm and get authorization to send that information to them. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in the firm of the sponsoring attorney. Sponsoring attorneys that post messages here are licensed to practice law in a specific state or states as indicated in their message signature or sponsor’s profile page. (NOTE: A ‘sponsoring attorney’ is an attorney that is a HOATalk.com official sponsor and is identified as such in the posted message or on our sponsor page.)

Copyright HOA Talk.com, A Service of Community123 LLC ( Homeowners Association Discussions )   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement