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Subject: Florida Condo Collapses, June 24, 2021
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Author Messages
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/24/2021 7:55 AM  
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/24/surfside-building-collapse-miami-dade/

... and other sites
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10534


06/24/2021 8:45 AM  
Was hearing about this morning. Tragedy. Prayers go out.

Former HOA President
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2475


06/24/2021 10:21 AM  
In addition to the human tragedy - Washington Post is saying 51 people are still unaccounted for but all living persons have exited the tower - this is probably going to have a chilling effect on many areas affecting condominiums. I can't imagine how the board members are feeling right now, assuming they're not among the 51. I'd be horrified that I'd maybe missed some indication that all was not well (for example, horizontal cracks in walls that can indicate structural issues).
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1681


06/24/2021 11:47 AM  
One article says the building had an upcoming 40 year inspection. I don't know how often complexes like this have a thorough inspection, but I hope it doesn't turn out that the board was deferring needed maintenance or inspections.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/24/2021 12:02 PM  
Posted By DouglasK1 on 06/24/2021 11:47 AM
One article says the building had an upcoming 40 year inspection. I don't know how often complexes like this have a thorough inspection, but I hope it doesn't turn out that the board was deferring needed maintenance or inspections.
I hope the insurance companies keep this all out of court. Am I dreaming? I do not know.

The Miami area of course has been pummeled by worsening storms in recent years. The building was constructed in the 1980s. Sitting here in the cheap seats, and knowing litigation over this may go on for over a decade, I say "act of god." Or if someone prefer, the collective will of the world in ignoring global warming.

Oh to see the last five years of Minutes of this condo's board.

Best wishes to the families of the deceased and all who are now homeless.
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/24/2021 12:15 PM  
From https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article252325063.html:

As far as ages of buildings go, the 12-story oceanfront condo tower that partially collapsed Thursday morning in Surfside was a relative youngster.

“I’ve seen things like this happen before, but never in the United States of America,” said architect Kobi Karp, who has designed some of the most notable buildings in Miami-Dade, including the Surf Club in Surfside. “It’s a 40 year-old building and we have buildings in Miami from the 1920s. It’s a sad, sad scenario that we may find out could have been prevented.”

The Champlain Towers South Condo at 8777 Collins Ave was 40 years old. The 12-story, 136-unit building, which was completed in 1981, was the first project to be built in the area after Miami-Dade County placed a moratorium on new developments during the 1970s, said Daniel Ciraldo, executive director of the Miami Design Preservation League.

Surfside struggled financially during the 1970s, Ciraldo said, and its water and sewer systems had degraded. The county required the town to upgrade its water and sewer systems before approving any projects.

Champlain Towers South Associates, the developer of Champlain Towers South, paid Surfside $200,000 in late 1979 — half of the cost for a new sewer system. With the new system in place, construction soon started on the project, Ciraldo said.

Once completed, international buyers flocked to the building. “A lot of foreign people were moving to South Florida for political stability that we had in the United States,” he said. “They wanted to live on the beach.”

Amenities in the 136-unit building included a pool, gym, barbecue area, tennis courts and a parking garage, “which was a newer thing,” Ciraldo said, “compared to hotels, where you just drove up to the entrance.”

County inspectors were reviewing the 40-year-old building, Ciraldo said. According to the Miami-Dade County building code, all residential buildings are required to undergo a re-certification process when they hit 40 years. The process includes inspections to ensure the building is habitable and safe.

“The building was in okay shape,” said a Realtor with Compass who has multiple listings in the building and spoke on condition of anonymity. “They were just starting repairs to upgrade.”

The association recently hired an engineer to develop specifications for electrical and structural changes needed to obtain the re-certification, a requirement of Miami-Dade County, but had not yet started construction.

“They were well into the review with the engineer about the project,” said Kenneth Direktor, an attorney with the law firm Becker who has represented the association for the last five years.

Condo association meetings were well attended, Direktor said, even throughout the COVID-19 pandemic over Zoom. Direktor described the community as “active and engaged.”

“There are working people, families with kids, people of retirement age,” he said. “Not a particular ethnicity or particular religion. It is a diverse community.”

Nearly 70% of Champlain Towers was occupied by primary homeowners and second homeowners, said the Compass Realtor by email and text. Units ranged from 1,500-square-foot, two-bedroom homes to 2,200-square-foot, three-bedroom homes. Prices ranged from $500,000 to $1.2 million. Penthouse unit 1012, a Compass spokesperson said, sold for $1.1 million in January 2020.


AugustinD comment:
After the World Trade Center collapsed in 2001, I recall engineers describing the "pile driver" effect, where the heat of the aviation fuel weakened the structure on lower floors, then when a lower floor collapsed, the floor right above it collapsed, causing the next floor above to collapse, and so on.



MaxB4


Posts:1394


06/24/2021 1:20 PM  
And Bin Laden's family were structural engineers.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1429


06/24/2021 1:28 PM  
I'm no steel frame engineer but the way these building are erected, they're designed to collapse like this. I hope their D&P premiums and other insurance are current. This is going to be a mess
Condolence to those who lost their lives and to their families.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10534


06/24/2021 3:05 PM  
The other day I saw a "fly over" of condo's in Miami area. I immediately thought to myself "Those places are built on sand! Would not be surprised if any of them collapsed.". Then heard the news today on TV... Was just heartbroken.

We recently had a small collapse here in town at an event center. They just built this addition in last 5 years. The whole ceiling fell down under an outside covered porch area. It was right before an event. So people were in the area. I've walked there myself with my dogs several times. No one was hurt thank goodness! Just took out the sprinkler system and made a huge mess.

So you can never really tell the structural integrity of many buildings. They investigated and ended up blaming the contractor for not following the drawings correctly. Makes you kind of want to take a look at your own buildings drawing plans for a good review...

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/25/2021 6:24 AM  
Less than 24 hours after the condo building's collapse:

Champlain Towers South residents file $5 million lawsuit against condo association

Some Champlain Towers South residents filed a $5 million lawsuit Thursday night against the building’s resident-led condominium association, seizing on statements that the association’s attorney made to media outlets about plans that were in the works for extensive repairs for rusted steel and damaged concrete.

“The collapse of Champlain Towers South was due to Defendant’s inadequate protection of both the safety of residents and visitors to the building,” said the complaint that was filed in Miami-Dade County’s circuit court. The filing describes it as a class-action suit.

Because the damages were identified but not immediately addressed, “one of the most breathtakingly frightening tragedies in the history of South Florida followed,” the complaint said.

More at https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/25/miami-building-collapse-live-updates/
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2475


06/25/2021 6:41 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/25/2021 6:24 AM
Less than 24 hours after the condo building's collapse:

Champlain Towers South residents file $5 million lawsuit against condo association

Some Champlain Towers South residents filed a $5 million lawsuit Thursday night against the building’s resident-led condominium association, seizing on statements that the association’s attorney made to media outlets about plans that were in the works for extensive repairs for rusted steel and damaged concrete.

“The collapse of Champlain Towers South was due to Defendant’s inadequate protection of both the safety of residents and visitors to the building,” said the complaint that was filed in Miami-Dade County’s circuit court. The filing describes it as a class-action suit.

Because the damages were identified but not immediately addressed, “one of the most breathtakingly frightening tragedies in the history of South Florida followed,” the complaint said.

More at https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/25/miami-building-collapse-live-updates/



I bet that lawyer regrets saying anything beyond "horrible tragedy". If I were on the board, I'd be concerned about having that person represent the association in what will likely be highly scrutinized litigation.

Not making light of this in any way, but who do the residents plan to hold accountable? The many snowbirds who probably didn't give any thought or personal time to governing something that they co-owned? The full-time residents who didn't attend any meetings? And if they "win", who do they think will pay for it?

They would probably have better luck going after the developers, inspectors, government officials, and others who may have built on unsuitable land (I don't know if this is true) or who may have undermined the building's integrity in some way.

This lawsuit was filed in anger and grief, at a time when deliberate and thoughtful action is needed.

BarbaraT1
(Texas)

Posts:571


06/25/2021 7:22 AM  
Still looking for bodies and the lawsuit is already filed.
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/25/2021 8:20 AM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/25/2021 6:41 AM

Not making light of this in any way, but who do the residents plan to hold accountable? The many snowbirds who probably didn't give any thought or personal time to governing something that they co-owned? The full-time residents who didn't attend any meetings? And if they "win", who do they think will pay for it?
The insurance company would pay, don't you think? The insurance company has the deepest pockets around.

They would probably have better luck going after the developers, inspectors, government officials, and others who may have built on unsuitable land (I don't know if this is true) or who may have undermined the building's integrity in some way.
I trust you saw the engineering study reporting the building had been sinking: https://faculty.fiu.edu/~swdowins/publications/Fiaschi-Wdowinski-OCM-2020.pdf

Not that this was the cause. To me, it's more grist for the mill.

BarbaraT1, indeed. I sure didn't see this happening so quickly. On the other hand, after reading about the lawsuit already filed, I think the attorneys were queuing up when they heard about the building's collapse. Big payday and all.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


06/25/2021 8:26 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/25/2021 6:24 AM
Less than 24 hours after the condo building's collapse:

Champlain Towers South residents file $5 million lawsuit against condo association

Some Champlain Towers South residents filed a $5 million lawsuit Thursday night against the building’s resident-led condominium association, seizing on statements that the association’s attorney made to media outlets about plans that were in the works for extensive repairs for rusted steel and damaged concrete.

“The collapse of Champlain Towers South was due to Defendant’s inadequate protection of both the safety of residents and visitors to the building,” said the complaint that was filed in Miami-Dade County’s circuit court. The filing describes it as a class-action suit.

Because the damages were identified but not immediately addressed, “one of the most breathtakingly frightening tragedies in the history of South Florida followed,” the complaint said.

More at https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/25/miami-building-collapse-live-updates/



I am sure the filing of a lawsuit just made your day.
BarbaraT1
(Texas)

Posts:571


06/25/2021 8:58 AM  
The insurance company would pay, don't you think? The insurance company has the deepest pockets around.


Policies have limits.


AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/25/2021 9:26 AM  
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 06/25/2021 8:58 AM
The insurance company would pay, don't you think? The insurance company has the deepest pockets around.


Policies have limits.
Yes, and corporations declare bankruptcy to avoid paying money out to shareholder-members.

I figure the attorneys are after the insurance money.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


06/25/2021 11:55 AM  
I wonder how many of the units were rentals and that is why the number of missing is so high. They are trying to account for people who no longer live there.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4239


06/25/2021 1:32 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/25/2021 6:24 AM
Less than 24 hours after the condo building's collapse:

Champlain Towers South residents file $5 million lawsuit against condo association

Some Champlain Towers South residents filed a $5 million lawsuit Thursday night against the building’s resident-led condominium association, seizing on statements that the association’s attorney made to media outlets about plans that were in the works for extensive repairs for rusted steel and damaged concrete.

“The collapse of Champlain Towers South was due to Defendant’s inadequate protection of both the safety of residents and visitors to the building,” said the complaint that was filed in Miami-Dade County’s circuit court. The filing describes it as a class-action suit.

Because the damages were identified but not immediately addressed, “one of the most breathtakingly frightening tragedies in the history of South Florida followed,” the complaint said.

More at https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/25/miami-building-collapse-live-updates/




Considering everything we see on this website about underfunded reserves, no reserves at all, not making repairs and improvements because people don't want to pay higher assessments, board members who don't do their research, property managers who nickel and dime HOAs, ancient building codes, proposed building costs that get shot down because developers don't want higher standards to eat up their profits and everything else, in the end there may be fingers pointing everywhere and it still won't help the people who were killed, injured or left homeless - the last thing I saw on the news was 160 are missing, and some of them COULD be renters, as Max noted.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10534


06/25/2021 2:17 PM  
There was more than 130 units in all. 1/2 of them fell. That is roughly 65 units. Let's say an average of 3 live in each unit. That is 195 possible lives. I've heard that they have rescued some people out of the wreckage. Too dangerous/unstable to get in.

Heard the association was getting sued. They were in a project to get rust and other issues fixed. It had not fully started yet. Saw an interview with someone whom said their mother had heard "noises" that kept her awake the night before. She is now missing. Makes you wonder if there were any increased maintenance notices.

This lawsuit will be going to insurance claim I am sure. It is just going to depend on how much the deductible is and how much in reserves. The other half of standing building may have to be taken down too.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/25/2021 2:25 PM  
Nice post, SheliaH.

Like many people, and while remembering the suffering of families, what interests me most is (1) What caused the collapse?; (2) Are other buildings nearby possibly as vulnerable to a collapse?; (3) What will the latter uncertainty do to those who live in the area, in tall buildings especially? I know I am thinking that, for the immediate future, I wouldn't gamble on a condo purchase in that area no way no how.

There's an awful lot of expert chatter about how the rising sea level, flooding that has increased due to climate change, massive development, and the like are causing infrastructure problems state-wide.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


06/25/2021 2:33 PM  
If I were an attorney on the defense side, I would be looking to conduct a study on the effects of hurricane winds and rains on high rise buildings constructed on sand over a period of 40 years.
BillH10
(Texas)

Posts:774


06/27/2021 8:48 AM  
New details emerge daily regarding conditions of the concrete structure and rebar in the property which seem to indicate there have been years of deferred maintenance and low cost repairs which may not have adequately addressed problems. I would like to see the financials for this property, including the reserve study. I can only imagine what some of the owners/board meetings must have been like.

Those 150+ people unaccounted for will remain in that status until the workers begin to peel back the layers as the debris is removed from the site. I am deeply saddened for those who cannot be found and those who are grieving for them.

I know this is a pipe dream on my part but I hope this incident scares the bejesus out of condominium boards and property managers everywhere to the point at which the attitude 'damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead' prevails on assessment increases to secure reserve funding and special assessments for maintenance.

I do not pay close attention to the details of the Florida laws/statutes affecting HOAs and condominiums which are posted here as our company does not operate in Florida. I have the impression they are more strict or codified than in other states, including ours.

I predict the introduction of numerous pieces of legislation in the Florida Senate and House in an attempt to hold Boards more responsible for ensuring maintenance and its funding cannot be sidestepped as it is now all over the country. Since our Legislature in Texas meets only every other year, and a session just ended, by the time of the 2023 session much of this tragedy will have been forgotten in Austin. There are coastal cities in Texas with high rise developments, this incident could very well have happened in this state.

We had a Zoom Board Meeting yesterday with a client, maintenance items were on the agenda. The majority of the Board ignored the 500 pound gorilla in the room, mainly that they do not have adequate reserves, and kicked the can of maintenance of exterior steel railings down the road until another time. Frustrating.
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/27/2021 9:22 AM  
The media has published reports that in October 2018 an engineering firm found "abundant cracking," "major structural damage" and more. "According to the consulting firm’s statement, after the firm gave the condominium association an estimate of costs for the repairs, about 18 months elapsed before the association hired the firm to prepare detailed repair plans. An 84-page draft of the plans from April this year also was released by Surfside." "Morabito Consultants, said in a statement Saturday that the damage he found “required repairs to ensure the safety of residents and the public” but that the repairs had not been started when the collapse occurred." See https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/champlain-towers-south-surfside/2021/06/26/a509519a-d5de-11eb-a53a-3b5450fdca7a_story.html

I suppose these are sound bites on top of sound bites; armchair quarterbacking; everyone has an opinion; and so on. All concerning complicated engineering issues that affect the safety of people and property. Meanwhile this nation asks volunteer HOA/COA boards of laypeople to make decisions on these complicated issues, using the business judgment rule et cetera, with HOA/COA members ready to jump down the HOA/COA directors' throats anytime an increase in the assessment is threatened. Which brings me to BillH10's interesting comments on same.
Posted By BillH10 on 06/27/2021 8:48 AM
I predict the introduction of numerous pieces of legislation in the Florida Senate and House in an attempt to hold Boards more responsible for ensuring maintenance and its funding cannot be sidestepped as it is now all over the country. Since our Legislature in Texas meets only every other year, and a session just ended, by the time of the 2023 session much of this tragedy will have been forgotten in Austin. There are coastal cities in Texas with high rise developments, this incident could very well have happened in this state.
Here as another armchair quarterback, I think I would prefer more laws requiring governmental certification of a building's structural integrity. Perhaps a statute requiring HOA/COA boards to seek and document the advice of counsel on any structural issue (if this is possible). I grant that the latter suggestion may be something that encourages too much litigation snowballing.

I think whatever is put in place is a gamble either way that the desired effect will result. But gamble or not, I think doing nothing regarding the buildings in the Florida area (and as BillH10 indicates, elsewhere where the sea and salt water may be playing a destructive role) is a mistake.

We had a Zoom Board Meeting yesterday with a client, maintenance items were on the agenda. The majority of the Board ignored the 500 pound gorilla in the room, mainly that they do not have adequate reserves, and kicked the can of maintenance of exterior steel railings down the road until another time. Frustrating.
Excellent anecdote. As a service to HOAs/COAs nationwide, I wish this site would start emphasizing this problem, and that Boards seeking to do the right thing must stay focused that their very first duty, by far, is the safety of life and property. HOA/COA politics be damned. Do the effin' right thing.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4239


06/27/2021 9:31 AM  
Bill, that's just what i was thinking when I saw an article saying the concrete issues in that building became known in 2018. The article also mentioned above the seawater is also an issue and we know climate change is a factor inhabits happening in the Miami area, indeed along the entire gulf coast.

There's another conversation on this website where the poster wanted to know what's the best way to break the news to homeowners that assessments will increase, and people are already responding with the old "why should I pay for improvements I'll never enjoy because I won't be here in 10-15 years" argument. Ladies and gentlemen, THIS is why you prepare, because you don't know if 10 - 15 years won't show up 1-5 years earlier. you don't know what your situation might be- maybe you won't be able to afford to move. Maybe the housing market takes another dip and you won't get the sales price you want.

Home maintenance isn't cheap and it IS a pain in the ass to look for contractors, check their licensing and complaint history, compare bids, review contracts before signing them, scheming the work, addressing issues that came up as the work for underway that neither side could have prepared for because there way no way to know that would be an issue until it was discovered, etc. And yet, If you want to get to a point where you can sell your home at a higher price than what you paid, you must take care of it.

I suspect there will be a lot of blame to go around as this continues to unfold and everyone will have to work together to resolve it. I agree with Augustin that other condos in that area may want to take a long look at their own buildings. And other communities, whether they are townhouses, high rise built by and even single family homes should watch, learn and act, and not be so shortsighted.

While people are thinking about making the HOA boards more accountable, they'd better include developers as well. Make these guys and gals set assessments based on reality from the start, set up reserves, educate new boards so they'll know how why why certain things must be done. No, it can't guarantee mistakes won't be made, but at least the community will be in a better position when it's turned over to homeowners. What the homeowners do after that will be up to them.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10534


06/27/2021 10:45 AM  
Glad not the only one thinking about how the other HOA's will be reacting to this news. The sad part is they are going to always exper.ience "ankle biters" no matter what decision they make. It's going to be hard enough to find a qualified structural engineer to come in to do an evaluation. Imagine how it's going to be to find a good contractor to do the work?

You wonder if there is going to be a sudden "fire sale" of condo's in Miami. Which I am sure lawyers and city officials will have to come in about that. HOA's rental laws will most likely be more under scrutiny. Is it ethical to rent your condo that is at risk of collapse?

There is a sister condo of this one. Will be interesting on how those residents react to this. It was a 9 Million dollar bill the building that collapsed was facing. Makes you wonder if going to see a retrofit or quit mentality form.

Former HOA President
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2475


06/27/2021 12:11 PM  
Posted By SheliaH on 06/27/2021 9:31 AM
... snip ....

There's another conversation on this website where the poster wanted to know what's the best way to break the news to homeowners that assessments will increase, and people are already responding with the old "why should I pay for improvements I'll never enjoy because I won't be here in 10-15 years" argument. Ladies and gentlemen, THIS is why you prepare, because you don't know if 10 - 15 years won't show up 1-5 years earlier. you don't know what your situation might be- maybe you won't be able to afford to move. Maybe the housing market takes another dip and you won't get the sales price you want.

... snip ...



This is also why I've occasionally made negative comments about HOAs/COAs (and state laws) that require homeowner approval of budgets and why I've referred to such requirements as a license to commit financial suicide. Directors have a fiduciary duty to the association, but homeowners don't and can act in their own self interest regardless of how harmful that can be to the association as a whole.

Fortunately many board members only have to listen to griping if they raise assessments. But even those boards are vulnerable to a determined effort to replace them with a group that's determined to keep costs down.

This tragedy should be a wake-up call to anyone who's even thought about living in a condo. Unfortunately we humans don't have a very good track record when it comes to learning lessons.
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/27/2021 5:52 PM  
Today's media report on whether the media's earlier report on the 2018 engineering firm's report was, yes, click-bait, from https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/27/florida-condo-building-collapse-live-updates/:

===
The longtime engineer hired by the town of Surfside to analyze possible causes of the tower collapse criticized the implication that a 2018 report warning of “major structural damage” to part of the building had signaled fatal flaws, telling The Washington Post in the first interview since his appointment that media coverage of the inspection was overblown.

The structural survey report, from engineer Frank P. Morabito, said that waterproofing below the pool deck and entrance drive had failed, allowing damaging leaks.

“What he said is waterproofing is failing and leaking and that lets water into the concrete — that’s true,” Allyn Kilsheimer, president of K.C.E Structural Engineers, told The Post on Sunday. But, he added, that finding is fairly typical.

“Nothing in it raised a red flag,” Kilsheimer said.

.
.
.

[Kilsheimer] said that the investigation could uncover a “perfect storm” of failures and that “probably 90 percent of the collapses we’ve dealt with — other than things caused by bombs and planes — have been multiple things all going wrong at the same time.”

“Sometimes you can’t get to one particular cause. It’s going to be this or this or this, or some combination," Kilsheimer said, echoing what other experts have hypothesized. "And that’s the best you can come up with.”
===

AugustinD comment: I am betting the Champlain Towers attorney will sleep just fine tonight.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1681


06/27/2021 6:46 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/27/2021 10:45 AM

There is a sister condo of this one. Will be interesting on how those residents react to this. It was a 9 Million dollar bill the building that collapsed was facing. Makes you wonder if going to see a retrofit or quit mentality form.

I found one article (https://komonews.com/news/nation-world/before-building-collapse-9-million-in-repairs-needed) that says a special assessment had been assessed and was due July 1. "owners at Champlain Towers South were facing payments of anywhere from $80,000 for a one-bedroom unit to $300,000 or so for a penthouse"

Posted By AugustinD on 06/25/2021 8:20 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/25/2021 6:41 AM

Not making light of this in any way, but who do the residents plan to hold accountable? The many snowbirds who probably didn't give any thought or personal time to governing something that they co-owned? The full-time residents who didn't attend any meetings? And if they "win", who do they think will pay for it?
The insurance company would pay, don't you think? The insurance company has the deepest pockets around.

In the end, this will probably get very messy, and the lawyers will be the ones seeing most of the money.

If they get a judgement for more than the insurance limit, what do they do then, assess the owners?

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4239


06/27/2021 7:12 PM  
Meanwhile here's an article on managed retreat, something that many coastal cities may have to start thinking about and this will have an effect on all the condos and HOAs built in those areas:

https://theconversation.com/managed-retreat-done-right-can-reinvent-cities-so-theyre-better-for-everyone-and-avoid-harm-from-flooding-heat-and-fires-163052?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Saturday%20Newsletter%20%20June%2026%202021%20-%201985219487&utm_content=Saturday%20Newsletter%20%20June%2026%202021%20-%201985219487+CID_af01c781f1ee44c3f48fcbdc4e264fd6&utm_source=campaign_monitor_us&utm_term=Managed%20retreat%20done%20right%20can%20reinvent%20cities%20so%20theyre%20better%20for%20everyone%20%20and%20avoid%20harm%20from%20flooding%20heat%20and%20fires
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/27/2021 8:26 PM  
Posted By DouglasK1 on 06/27/2021 6:46 PM
If they get a judgement for more than the insurance limit, what do they do then, assess the owners?
Heh. It's the owners who are suing, right? Some have lost property. Some have lost use of their property. Some have suffered loss of life. Some have suffered physical injury. Granted this appears to be quite few. Folks either survived with few injuries or died. My head is spinning.

Why aren't there articles on how much insurance coverage the COA has (had?)? (I know: This is not the first priority right now.)

What is the typical insurance coverage limit for a condo of this size for this kind of disaster?

AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/27/2021 8:27 PM  
Posted By SheliaH on 06/27/2021 7:12 PM
Meanwhile here's an article on managed retreat, something that many coastal cities may have to start thinking about and this will have an effect on all the condos and HOAs built in those areas:

https://theconversation.com/managed-retreat-done-right-can-reinvent-cities-so-theyre-better-for-everyone-and-avoid-harm-from-flooding-heat-and-fires-163052?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Saturday%20Newsletter%20%20June%2026%202021%20-%201985219487&utm_content=Saturday%20Newsletter%20%20June%2026%202021%20-%201985219487+CID_af01c781f1ee44c3f48fcbdc4e264fd6&utm_source=campaign_monitor_us&utm_term=Managed%20retreat%20done%20right%20can%20reinvent%20cities%20so%20theyre%20better%20for%20everyone%20%20and%20avoid%20harm%20from%20flooding%20heat%20and%20fires
With this post the word wrapping for this entire thread went down the tubes.

Not your fault per se SheliaH. But I would like to know what a poster can do to stop this.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4239


06/28/2021 8:24 AM  
EEP! I wondered why the link was so long but a techno wiz I'm not!

The story is on The Conversation website - if you google managed retreat it may show up in a search
AugustinD


Posts:1695


06/28/2021 9:36 AM  
SheliaH, using your directions, the article came right up:

https://theconversation.com/managed-retreat-done-right-can-reinvent-cities-so-theyre-better-for-everyone-and-avoid-harm-from-flooding-heat-and-fires-163052

For the interested reader: "Managed retreat" appears to refer to a concerted, step-by-step effort to transplant folks living in at-risk to geographical areas to safer ones. I think well-organized, "climate induced re-location" is another way to put "managed retreat."
EricN3
(California)

Posts:16


07/05/2021 1:28 AM  
you don't think the insurance company will try and weasel out of it. from what i heard the policy is only worth 48 million def not enough in a situation like this
EricN3
(California)

Posts:16


07/05/2021 1:30 AM  
prayers go out to these people. i can't even begin to think whats going through the ones minds that didn't get closure
EricN3
(California)

Posts:16


07/05/2021 1:32 AM  
now that the place is demolished they can also sell the land and raise money for the residents
AugustinD


Posts:1695


07/05/2021 6:50 AM  
Posted By EricN3 on 07/05/2021 1:28 AM
you don't think the insurance company will try and weasel out of it. from what i heard the policy is only worth 48 million def not enough in a situation like this
So far I recall reading an article a day or so after the collapse where a spokesman for the insurance company stated simply that it intends to pay out the limit of the policy.

I think the Business Judgment Rule protects the directors and also translates to the insurer stuck with paying out its limit.

I continue to wonder whether the plaintiffs will sue the tiny city of Surfside and the Morabito engineering firm. The attorneys will seek the deep pockets. I think the city of Surfside may hold much liability for the reckless, ignorant statements of its foolish city official Ross Prieto in 2018.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10534


07/05/2021 7:24 AM  
Do not think this may be land they can just sell. It's most likely going to be turned into a memorial park for the victims. Not too many people may be keen on buying condo's on land of which over 150 people/pets died. It will still be years before something may happen on the site.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1695


07/05/2021 7:56 AM  
The judge, with the Board's acquiescence, put all financial decisions in the hands of an "independent receiver." This is one Michael Goldberg, a veteran Florida attorney. I would presume the receiver is legally obligated to act "in the best interests of the corporation." Meaning I expect the receiver is obliged to get as much money for the land as possible, and so will sell the land to the highest bidder.

If say the state wants to step in and buy the land (at $30 million to $50 million, according to the court) and make a memorial park, I suppose this is possible. But money talks. I figure developers are running the numbers as we speak and deciding whether to make an offer at the appropriate time.

I know if I were a Champlain South owner or survivor of an owner, and getting down to the brass tacks of needing housing, I suppose I may be getting a payout, subject to a limit, from my own insurer. I may be getting a payout from the condo's insurer (up to $350,000 on average = $48 million / 136 owners). If the land sold for $30 million, this is another $221,000 in my pocket. From my reading, I believe many of the owners need the money and will want the land sold to the highest bidder.

Time will tell, of course.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10534


07/05/2021 11:01 AM  
I wonder what obligations the members may have in rebuilding? Was it still owned by the Developers? I know that in our HOA that is NON-high rise you have to replace the house. You can't just sell the property. Have to rebuild similar home that was constructed. The HOA owns the land but the owner owns the lot the home sat on.

Makes me wonder how other condo's or houses replacement policies are? Plus is anyone's HOA/Condo taking a good look at this situation to get evaluated? If disaster hit tomorrow, what would your HOA/COA face or require?

Would not be surprised if the land will be sold off after it's officially cleared. Just wonder if it is, what has to be built to replace it? Same footprint/design? There are still 2 other buildings (I believe) connected by the COA.

Former HOA President
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1429


07/05/2021 11:23 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/05/2021 11:01 AM
I wonder what obligations the members may have in rebuilding? Was it still owned by the Developers? I know that in our HOA that is NON-high rise you have to replace the house. You can't just sell the property. Have to rebuild similar home that was constructed. The HOA owns the land but the owner owns the lot the home sat on.

Makes me wonder how other condo's or houses replacement policies are? Plus is anyone's HOA/Condo taking a good look at this situation to get evaluated? If disaster hit tomorrow, what would your HOA/COA face or require?

Would not be surprised if the land will be sold off after it's officially cleared. Just wonder if it is, what has to be built to replace it? Same footprint/design? There are still 2 other buildings (I believe) connected by the COA.





I am going to guess that is a fight that will go on for years.. Hopefully an investor will buy the land to make the owners "whole" again. Then there is going to be the group that wants it to be a memorial.
DonnaR5
(Virginia)

Posts:138


07/06/2021 8:19 AM  
In the long run, the sea will reclaim that land. I wonder what the current projections are.
EricN3
(California)

Posts:16


07/07/2021 4:49 PM  
i heard somewhere they had 48 million in insurance wich clearly isn't enough for this disaster
EricN3
(California)

Posts:16


07/07/2021 4:53 PM  
i wonder how many are thinking of selling but are holding off. they found another building in need of repair i'm sure they will find more that are in need of repairs. now that the cities are going through the inventory. the sad thing is that yes these buildings do need repairs and up keep like anything else. but the cost to do it is staggering...
EricN3
(California)

Posts:16


07/08/2021 3:37 PM  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV8C2eF7FTI&ab_channel=CBSMiami
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Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Florida Condo Collapses, June 24, 2021



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