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Subject: as i suspected.
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Author Messages
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/03/2021 4:57 PM  
The accounting company will not remove the charges from my account without the board voting to remove the charges.

I understand that their is a procedure for removing valid charges or fines. However, the board did follow the law and I was given no due process (see previous thread)

I also cc'd the person at the accounting company who manually enters charges and fees to the owner accounts.
One an owner notifies the accounting company of the improper charges, Is the accounting company under any obligation to verify whether the charges they placed on an account are valid.

I know that they aren't obligated to check on all charges and fees . They just process entries. However. when an owner notifies them of a possible improper and illegal charge to an account. Can the accounting just dismiss the concerns. This isn't an argument about whether the fines are valid .(that's not for them to decide). This is a notification that the legal procedure was not followed by their client(the association via the board).

This is an ongoing issue with the accounting company. I realize they deal with owners all the time arguing about charges. Their pat response is take it up with the board.

However, as explained previously, the board disregarded the state requirements before assessing an owner charges for purported damage to the common areas that the owner is liable for.

Its one thing to not know something was wrong. But when the board refuses to take action to rectify actions that they took without proper due process, can the accounting company also refuse to put on hold the disputed assessment and charge late fees.

AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/03/2021 5:11 PM  
Posted By LaskaS on 06/03/2021 4:57 PM
This is an ongoing issue with the accounting company. I realize they deal with owners all the time arguing about charges. Their pat response is take it up with the board.
Why do you call this a "pat response"? If I were this accounting firm's attorney, I would advise the firm to do as directed by the board.

It's not the accounting firm's job to investigate every bill the COA tells the firm to assess a member.

I think the ongoing issue is with the members calling the accounting firm instead of taking up the problem with the board.
JohnT38
(South Carolina)

Posts:764


06/03/2021 5:28 PM  
Here's my take on this and your other issues. Most people who succeed in getting what they want are cool under pressure, methodical and non-emotional. They know their facts and what their alternatives are they then patiently fight their battle.

From what I have seen here you don't have these characteristics and have problems controlling your emotions and people rightly or wrongly shut you out. You seem to always be hung up on what you consider fair and just and present yourself as the perpetual victim. You may be right in many of these cases but your presentation style prevents you from achieving your goals.

This post is a classic example. You feel entitled to solely dictate what the HOA accounting firm should do and it amazes you that they don't do what you've commanded.
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/03/2021 6:16 PM  
John, I do not feel entitled to dictate anything.

I feel entitled to expect the association through the board follow the law.
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/03/2021 6:23 PM  
also, I'm not amazed that they didn't remove the charges. I was asking if they have a responsibilty to verify the information the are provided when an owner calls and provides information that,if true, would make the charges improper.

Let me also ad, The accounting company has been for as long as I can remember available to owners with questions about their accounts. The usual procedure is the owner will call the office and question some entry on their account. The office manager will instruct the owner to call creative and ask for monique.
Monique then tells the owner they have to take it up with the board. The owner then has to continue the run around and call the office and ask to placed on the agenda for the next meeting. The next meeting, the owner request is not on the agenda.

I am asking what the next step is.

LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/03/2021 6:31 PM  
Augustine, I'm probably labeling the accounting company the wrong thing.

This is the property management company that manages numerous communities. Most associations hire the property management company for their complete management of the association. In our case. the association employs its own property manager and maintenance employees. The management company handles the bookkeeping. I probably should refer to them the book keeper....

For disputes that require a board vote ,, i.e. fines, charges to an account. etc. I understand the bookkeeping company doesn't have any authority to change anything with proper procedure.

What i'm asking is, what if the bookkeeping company is made aware that the proper procedure wasn't even followed by the board when voting to assess these charges.
Does the bookkeeping company have no responsibility to verify if the proper legal requirements were followed.?? I would think they would be obligated to send an email to the association asking for the proper documentation that the charges were valid and legally assessed?.
MaxB4


Posts:1351


06/03/2021 6:41 PM  
Notwithstanding the other posts, I will respond to this with my two cents.

There is a legal difference between what a management company and their accounting department and a bookkeeper hired by the association can do. Typically, a MC will have a direct line or access to the board, whereas a bookkeeper doesn't. In this instance, a MC would know that due process is required prior to placing a fine on one's account, where a bookkeeper wouldn't.

It was mentioned that the ongoing issue is members contacting the accounting firm when they should be dealing with the board. Sorry, but many board hide behind their bookkeepers or MC's. That is why many are hired.

Here is how I would have handled your specific situation. Mind you, prior to taking on a client, they are given the rules by which my company would operate. In this instance, before a fine is imposed, due process must be followed. My software will record the violation and fine. If a fine is imposed, the minutes of the specific meeting where the fine was voted on would be attached. This preserves the record in the event there is a legal challenge. Remember, my client is not the Board, but the association.

LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/03/2021 6:54 PM  
Max,

thank you, this makes perfect sense to me.

The factor I was trying to get clarity on was the fact that the owner of the management company(which also has a bookkeeping department) attends all of our meetings as an advisor. He was at the executive session. I cc'd him also in my original request for the charges to be removed because the association failed to follow the law.

If the owner of the management company attends our meetings and often interjects with information that the board should consider. He has managed properties for over 30 years. He for sure knows the requirements of due process.

However, since he doesn't technically provide management to the association, he basically gets to influence the board without having any culpability when he gets it wrong.
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/03/2021 6:56 PM  
FYI,

When the bookkeeper responded with, "take it up with the board", I submitted in writing a request to view the contract between the association and this company. I also made sure to state
for the purpose of understanding the service and obligations that the association has contracted with company x to perform.


SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/03/2021 7:02 PM  
You have several options, pay it and move on. Go delinquent and let it go to the attorney in which you can then finally deal with the attorney. Third sue them and get the fine tossed for not following procedure but they can still end up then giving you a hearing and still fine you. So it’s a lose lose for you.

Either way you made the mistake so you’ll still pay, sorry no other way to cut it. Lastly, get a willing board to change this.

All options require your time and patience.
MaxB4


Posts:1351


06/03/2021 7:10 PM  
Posted By LaskaS on 06/03/2021 6:56 PM
FYI,

When the bookkeeper responded with, "take it up with the board", I submitted in writing a request to view the contract between the association and this company. I also made sure to state
for the purpose of understanding the service and obligations that the association has contracted with company x to perform.





I switched my business model from managing complexes to doing financial only. Keeps politics out if the equation. Part of the reasons are, while California has maybe more rules, but there is no enforcement if an association chooses not to comply. Over the past three years, small claims court is a joke, because of the lack of experience with judges or commissioners, and how many are willing to spend $20K to take it to the next level, Superior Court.
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/03/2021 9:20 PM  
sheila,

I too considered the possibility that the board may give me a hearing and vote to assess me the charges anyway.

luckily,I did find reference to cases where the court recognized an owners rights when dealing with home owners associations

the requirements of fairness in private administrative decision-making

The distinction between fair procedure and due process rights appears to be one of origin and not of the extent of protection afforded an individual; the essence of both rights is fairness. Adequate notice of charges and a reasonable opportunity to respond are basic to both sets of rights.

The court declared that a due process requires an administrative hearing before unbiased decision makers and "even the probability of unfairness is to be avoided,"--concluding that "[p]ersonal embroilment in the dispute will also void the administrative decision."

Based on a majority of the board having repeatedly not abided by the texas law and our documents. I do not trust them to decide anything fairly or impartially.

Again, IF I HAD CAUSED ANY destruction of plants , then there needs to be proof.

I have pictures showing the area and the lack of any plants before I added plants.
I also have the total receipts for any and all purchases by the association for landscaping work in the past year. NOT A SINGLE DOLLAR SPENT ON PLANTS or shrubs. .

There are lots of ways a condo board can harass an owner. assessing charges for common area damages without the due process requirements isn't one of them. They will lose on this.
If they choose to waste hoa funds to get the lawyer involved, that will even be further proof that the board is not acting in good faith , not properly utilzing hoa funds and more intent on personal vendettas.
ND
(PA)

Posts:632


06/03/2021 10:05 PM  
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/03/2021 5:28 PM
Here's my take on this and your other issues. Most people who succeed in getting what they want are cool under pressure, methodical and non-emotional. They know their facts and what their alternatives are they then patiently fight their battle.

From what I have seen here you don't have these characteristics and have problems controlling your emotions and people rightly or wrongly shut you out. You seem to always be hung up on what you consider fair and just and present yourself as the perpetual victim. You may be right in many of these cases but your presentation style prevents you from achieving your goals.

This post is a classic example. You feel entitled to solely dictate what the HOA accounting firm should do and it amazes you that they don't do what you've commanded.



I quoted JohnT38's input. I suggest that instead of dismissing it, you actually read it (and read it again), then reflect on it and let it sink in. I think his assessment is spot on.


But back to your question that you asked several different ways . . . Does the bookkeeping company have responsibility to verify if proper/appropriate steps were taken in the decision-making process that led to them being told to assess charges to your account?

The simple answer in my opinion is "NO", the bookkeeper is under no obligation to research your particular issue or verify the validity/legality/appropriateness of events leading up to them being told to assess charges to your account.

Your issue is with the Board (or individual(s) on the Board). The Board is the entity that tells the bookkeeper (a hired contractor of the Board) what they need to do.


Finally, in addition to the above . . . it seems like you enjoy making mountains out of molehills. (And perhaps some of your Board Members enjoy watching you get so spun up on every single thing.) Issues that are relatively small, you manage to turn into significant battles with the Board, MC, bookkeeper, and anyone with an email address or phone number that you can contact with your issues, questions, requests for documentation, and demands. You bring state/HOA document references, news clippings of similar issues in other HOAs from different states, case law from 20 years ago, etc. I think if you relax a bit and focus energy on only things/issues that are vitally important, then you may find yourself with fewer issues to deal with.
MaxB4


Posts:1351


06/03/2021 10:26 PM  
Posted By ND on 06/03/2021 10:05 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 06/03/2021 5:28 PM
Here's my take on this and your other issues. Most people who succeed in getting what they want are cool under pressure, methodical and non-emotional. They know their facts and what their alternatives are they then patiently fight their battle.

From what I have seen here you don't have these characteristics and have problems controlling your emotions and people rightly or wrongly shut you out. You seem to always be hung up on what you consider fair and just and present yourself as the perpetual victim. You may be right in many of these cases but your presentation style prevents you from achieving your goals.

This post is a classic example. You feel entitled to solely dictate what the HOA accounting firm should do and it amazes you that they don't do what you've commanded.



I quoted JohnT38's input. I suggest that instead of dismissing it, you actually read it (and read it again), then reflect on it and let it sink in. I think his assessment is spot on.


But back to your question that you asked several different ways . . . Does the bookkeeping company have responsibility to verify if proper/appropriate steps were taken in the decision-making process that led to them being told to assess charges to your account?

The simple answer in my opinion is "NO", the bookkeeper is under no obligation to research your particular issue or verify the validity/legality/appropriateness of events leading up to them being told to assess charges to your account.

Your issue is with the Board (or individual(s) on the Board). The Board is the entity that tells the bookkeeper (a hired contractor of the Board) what they need to do.


Finally, in addition to the above . . . it seems like you enjoy making mountains out of molehills. (And perhaps some of your Board Members enjoy watching you get so spun up on every single thing.) Issues that are relatively small, you manage to turn into significant battles with the Board, MC, bookkeeper, and anyone with an email address or phone number that you can contact with your issues, questions, requests for documentation, and demands. You bring state/HOA document references, news clippings of similar issues in other HOAs from different states, case law from 20 years ago, etc. I think if you relax a bit and focus energy on only things/issues that are vitally important, then you may find yourself with fewer issues to deal with.


No, you're wrong, that is what Augsutin does by feeding the posters with so much useless BS. You really think anyone is going to hire a lawyer and waste $20K on case law he feeds them?
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/04/2021 12:27 AM  
Nd,

thank you for your opinion regarding the book keeper and whether or not they have an obligation .....Upon reading all the responses. I agree. the book keeper doesn't seem to have any obligation to verify whether or not the notices they received are valid.


Regarding JohnT38's comments,


I didn't disagree with most of what he said. What he said has has a lot of merit.

I'm not cool under pressure, and non-emotional. That's glaringly obvious.

The only thing I disagreed with is his statement " You feel entitled to solely dictate what the HOA accounting firm should do and it amazes you that they don't do what you've commanded."
I don't at all feel entitled.

Nd. Vitally important is relative. None of these issues are life and death. but they are important to me. The failure of our board to hire the people needed to properly manage and maintain the property is not acceptable to me. Many owners are frustrated also. Most of them have given up and think that this is just the way things are going to be. I can't accept that.
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/04/2021 12:37 AM  
Max. I don't think augustine posts the information intending someone to hire a lawyer and go to court to prove the point.

I think augustine posts the information because it is helpful when determining whether a poster has any actual legal standing in their concern/complaint.

By sending the letter to the board and cc'ing the attorney. The idea is that the attorney will ask the board what's goin on. At some point the attorney is going to ask point blank, did you follow the procedures before assessing the charge yes or no. When they say no. The attorney would tell them the can't do that. And he will tell them they are wasting time and money.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10523


06/04/2021 4:47 AM  
Laska you have the WRONG idea of the lawyer response. That is more WISHFUL thinking and your OPINION. The REALITY is that the HOA attorney isn't going to advise them of anything of the sort. The HOA attorney works FOR the HOA/board. What is to happen is the HOA board or the person appointed to communicate to the HOA lawyer will communicate to the lawyer. They will state their case/view. The lawyer will take THEIR side. They are their client NOT you!

So you still have no reason or right to contact the HOA lawyer. That is NOT your job or in scope. The lawyer will contact YOU once you contact the board or you hire your own attorney. Otherwise the HOA can charge you for any legal advice the HOA lawyer gives for or against.

Still you DID do "damage" to the common area. Your hands are NOT "clean". What you did is no different than any other violation the HOA did not approve and needs removed. The process of notification may not been up to par but does not mean the HOA is wrong. IF you were to sue, I foresee you losing.

Former HOA President
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2466


06/04/2021 5:20 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/04/2021 4:47 AM
Laska you have the WRONG idea of the lawyer response. That is more WISHFUL thinking and your OPINION. The REALITY is that the HOA attorney isn't going to advise them of anything of the sort. The HOA attorney works FOR the HOA/board. What is to happen is the HOA board or the person appointed to communicate to the HOA lawyer will communicate to the lawyer. They will state their case/view. The lawyer will take THEIR side. They are their client NOT you!

So you still have no reason or right to contact the HOA lawyer. That is NOT your job or in scope. The lawyer will contact YOU once you contact the board or you hire your own attorney. Otherwise the HOA can charge you for any legal advice the HOA lawyer gives for or against.

Still you DID do "damage" to the common area. Your hands are NOT "clean". What you did is no different than any other violation the HOA did not approve and needs removed. The process of notification may not been up to par but does not mean the HOA is wrong. IF you were to sue, I foresee you losing.



Adding to what Melissa said, no HOA lawyer who knows what they're doing will talk to a homeowner. Not only is it a conflict of interest (since the homeowner is potentially or in fact an adversary), they risk breaching lawyer-client privilege (potentially harming their case in court).

At best you will be informed that the attorney will not communicate with you and that you should direct all of your questions to your own attorney.

This is what an adversarial relationship looks like.
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 7:15 AM  
Posted By LaskaS on 06/04/2021 12:37 AM
I think augustine posts the information because it is helpful when determining whether a poster has any actual legal standing in their concern/complaint.
Correct.
By sending the letter to the board and cc'ing the attorney. The idea is that the attorney will ask the board what's goin on. At some point the attorney is going to ask point blank, did you follow the procedures before assessing the charge yes or no. When they say no. The attorney would tell them the can't do that. And he will tell them they are wasting time and money.
I am the one who suggested that LaskaS cc the HOA attorney. And it is in the hope of exactly what LaskaS posted above.

A "cc" is not an invitation to communicate. For a person who is cc'd, the business custom is either to ignore the letter; file the letter; or possibly speak with the addressee (the board).

MelissaP1, you are so wrong about who the client is. Every competent HOA/COA attorney I know says they represent the HOA/COA corporation and are obliged to act in the corporation's best interests. This often means advising the board to do just the opposite of what the Board wants to do. Your post on this point grossly misleads.
MaxB4


Posts:1351


06/04/2021 7:24 AM  
Posted By LaskaS on 06/04/2021 12:37 AM
Max. I don't think augustine posts the information intending someone to hire a lawyer and go to court to prove the point.

I think augustine posts the information because it is helpful when determining whether a poster has any actual legal standing in their concern/complaint.

By sending the letter to the board and cc'ing the attorney. The idea is that the attorney will ask the board what's goin on. At some point the attorney is going to ask point blank, did you follow the procedures before assessing the charge yes or no. When they say no. The attorney would tell them the can't do that. And he will tell them they are wasting time and money.




As soon as you sent the letter, the fees were removed, right?
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 7:30 AM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/04/2021 5:20 AM

Adding to what Melissa said, no HOA lawyer who knows what they're doing will talk to a homeowner.
I think you are aware of the following, but for the archives:

I have seen many competent HOA/COA attorneys send demand letters directly to members, properly disclosing who he/she (the attorney) represents (and it is not the HOA/COA member). I have seen competent HOA/COA attorneys contact HOA/COA members to smoothe over some ruffled feathers and stop, for example, a Fair Housing complaint. Competent HOA/COA attorneys do what they can to stop certain disputes from escalating; keep stupid disputes out of court; and so on.

Attorneys contact non-clients all the time, typically at the general direction of their client, and in the best interests of their client.

In my experience, HOA/COA attorneys do play referee now and then, in the best interests of the HOA/COA, and yes, watching carefully that they do not violate their fiduciary duty to the HOA/COA.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10523


06/04/2021 7:54 AM  
No I do NOT Augustine. The facts are facts. The HOA's attorney is the CORPORATION attorney. Simple as that. That does NOT mean they are EVERY member's attorney. They represent the HOA as a whole. Which means the HOA attorney should ONLY reply to a member because the HOA or the member's attorney requests it. That HOA is the SAME lawyer the member will see in court DEFENDING the HOA. Are you going to go to the DEFENSE lawyer and tell them your boo-hoo story? Nope.

Again SUING YOUR HOA IS SUING YOURSELF AND YOUR NEIGHBORS. The HOA's attorney is NOT YOUR attorney. Get your own. If the HOA wants their attorney to play "footsies" with the member so be it. It still does not change the relationship. It may help resolve the issue but in no way is the HOA attorney to take YOUR advise and force it's clients into anything.

This another "control" issue of Laska that just can't seem to get it. Everything they have done so far is a control problem/issue. Others are only trying to "control" Laska because they are being passive aggressive and crossing the lines by trying to blur them.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 8:00 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/04/2021 4:47 AM
The lawyer will take THEIR [the Board's] side. They [the Board] are [is] their [the HOA/COA attorney's] client NOT you!
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/04/2021 7:54 AM
The HOA's attorney is the CORPORATION attorney.
Make up your mind.
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/04/2021 10:14 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/04/2021 4:47 AM
Laska you have the WRONG idea of the lawyer response. That is more WISHFUL thinking and your OPINION. The REALITY is that the HOA attorney isn't going to advise them of anything of the sort. The HOA attorney works FOR the HOA/board. What is to happen is the HOA board or the person appointed to communicate to the HOA lawyer will communicate to the lawyer. They will state their case/view. The lawyer will take THEIR side. They are their client NOT you!

So you still have no reason or right to contact the HOA lawyer. That is NOT your job or in scope. The lawyer will contact YOU once you contact the board or you hire your own attorney. Otherwise the HOA can charge you for any legal advice the HOA lawyer gives for or against.

Still you DID do "damage" to the common area. Your hands are NOT "clean". What you did is no different than any other violation the HOA did not approve and needs removed. The process of notification may not been up to par but does not mean the HOA is wrong. IF you were to sue, I foresee you losing.



If this was related to common area then Laska would probably not be entitled to any hearing or notice requirements. So I think he'll end up paying no matter what procedure was followed.

Like you said, he did the damage to common area, he must pay.
MaxB4


Posts:1351


06/04/2021 10:25 AM  
Posted By SheilaJ1 on 06/04/2021 10:14 AM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/04/2021 4:47 AM
Laska you have the WRONG idea of the lawyer response. That is more WISHFUL thinking and your OPINION. The REALITY is that the HOA attorney isn't going to advise them of anything of the sort. The HOA attorney works FOR the HOA/board. What is to happen is the HOA board or the person appointed to communicate to the HOA lawyer will communicate to the lawyer. They will state their case/view. The lawyer will take THEIR side. They are their client NOT you!

So you still have no reason or right to contact the HOA lawyer. That is NOT your job or in scope. The lawyer will contact YOU once you contact the board or you hire your own attorney. Otherwise the HOA can charge you for any legal advice the HOA lawyer gives for or against.

Still you DID do "damage" to the common area. Your hands are NOT "clean". What you did is no different than any other violation the HOA did not approve and needs removed. The process of notification may not been up to par but does not mean the HOA is wrong. IF you were to sue, I foresee you losing.



If this was related to common area then Laska would probably not be entitled to any hearing or notice requirements. So I think he'll end up paying no matter what procedure was followed.

Like you said, he did the damage to common area, he must pay.



I saw the pictures, you consider what Laska did was damage to the common area. I would say he did them a favor. It seems the board has control issues.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10523


06/04/2021 10:25 AM  
How many here believe Laska would "win" their case?

How many here believe the HOA is in their right to charge for the "Destruction of common property"?

How many here believe that Laska did indeed damage the property by their "improvements" that were not approved by the board?

Let's keep it simple. Yes or no Laska is in the right and doesn't owe their HOA a dime?

Former HOA President
MaxB4


Posts:1351


06/04/2021 10:42 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/04/2021 10:25 AM
How many here believe Laska would "win" their case?

How many here believe the HOA is in their right to charge for the "Destruction of common property"?

How many here believe that Laska did indeed damage the property by their "improvements" that were not approved by the board?

Let's keep it simple. Yes or no Laska is in the right and doesn't owe their HOA a dime?



Doesn't owe one damn red cent!
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/04/2021 10:51 AM  
He owes.

Kinda of already admitted he altered the common area. He can say he didn’t “damage” but i fact improved or restored it but no one is going to care about the wording, it was changed.

Perhaps he should file application to get the “improvement” approved and send it to the board. But the problem is HOA’s don’t have an approval process for owners that change the common area. It’s a lose lose.

MaxB4


Posts:1351


06/04/2021 10:55 AM  
Posted By SheilaJ1 on 06/04/2021 10:51 AM
He owes.

Kinda of already admitted he altered the common area. He can say he didn’t “damage” but i fact improved or restored it but no one is going to care about the wording, it was changed.

Perhaps he should file application to get the “improvement” approved and send it to the board. But the problem is HOA’s don’t have an approval process for owners that change the common area. It’s a lose lose.




No, the board has control issues and is vindictive!
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/04/2021 11:00 AM  
They sure are. I’m in agreement.

Either Laska can become like them and file for court relief or try to negotiate a solution. Perhaps they can reduce the fine, you never know.

But a fine for damages sure doesn’t look good on a homeowner record.
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 11:03 AM  
Posted By SheilaJ1 on 06/04/2021 10:14 AM

If this was related to common area then Laska would probably not be entitled to any hearing or notice requirements.
The Texas COA statutes expressly require notice and a hearing when a COA assesses an owner for alleged damages to a common area.

AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 11:05 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/04/2021 10:25 AM
How many here believe Laska would "win" their case?
Perhaps we should next inquire how many here think MelissaP1 posts so much incorrect information that she should be banned from the site.

I do not care what you think. Time and again, even when told what a statute says, you stick by an incorrect position.
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/04/2021 11:10 AM  
That’s pretty good, if he didn’t mention it in the letter that statute should be.

In the end he still did the damage. He can pay less now or more later.
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 11:14 AM  
Posted By SheilaJ1 on 06/04/2021 11:10 AM
In the end he still did the damage.
There's no "end" until a hearing has been held where all sides may speak and be heard by the board.

From evidence LaskaS presented in another recent thread, including photos, it's a stretch to call what she/he did "damage."
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10523


06/04/2021 11:32 AM  
Not a stretch to the imagination that Laska did not do damage. Even with a hearing it is quite clear they did the damage. Why can't anyone just accept that FACT? Did Laska have permission or knowledge to do the plantings on common property? No. So what is that legally and common sense called? "DAMAGE". Hearing or no hearing the damage is done. Now pay up.

Former HOA President
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/04/2021 11:33 AM  
The board will push any owner around because most don’t bother to fight back, so far anything Laska has done is just an annoyance, he needs a hired gun or the other options everyone has already mentioned. He could find an attorney and spend $250-$300 to send a letter.

To me what he has done is damage to the common area and the board see’s it that way as well.
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 11:38 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/04/2021 11:32 AM
Not a stretch to the imagination that Laska did not do damage. Even with a hearing it is quite clear they did the damage. Why can't anyone just accept that FACT? Did Laska [did not] have permission or knowledge to do the plantings on common property? No. So what is that legally and common sense called? "DAMAGE".
-- That's not what it is called legally. You said you would not try to interpret legal issues. So stop doing so.

-- The $770 or so LaskaS is being billed is for specific costs to the HOA for fixing the "damage," as alleged by the manager.

-- How come LaskaS has to follow the rules regarding common areas but the Board does not have to follow the rules for assessments?

-- How come you only want HOA members to follow the rules and law but the Board does not have to?

AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 11:40 AM  
Posted By SheilaJ1 on 06/04/2021 11:33 AM
To me what he has done is damage to the common area and the board see’s it that way as well.
I get that you could give a da-n about complying with the Texas COA statute regarding notice and a hearing. You should take this up with the Texas legislature.

-- I get that you think COA members have to follow the rules and state law but COA boards do not.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10523


06/04/2021 11:41 AM  
Why are you defending the "HOA"? It is not a "They or Them" situation. It's Laska and his/her neighbors! It appears their neighbor/fellow members don't want them messing around with their stuff without permission or knowledge. This isn't just the flowers but also doors etc... they got themselves involved in. Not the first post Laska has posted all about them not getting what they want and calling the HOA the enemy. How do we know for sure the OTHER side of the story? We don't. I just know the facts as presented. Did an improvement, was not approved, and was assessed for the damages. Period.

Former HOA President
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/04/2021 11:45 AM  
I think the best thing he can do is let the fine get to the attorney’s eye’s somehow, unless management does not forward past due fines to the attorney.

Boards will get away with not following the law because it’s led by a bunch of amateurs that the court lets them slide on. Until Laska gets an attorney. there is no one to stop them. Does Texas have an Ombudsman? He could write them a letter but even those he must use the HOA’s complaint process and get a response or no response within like 60 days or something before forwarding it to Ombudsman.
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 11:50 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/04/2021 11:41 AM
WI just know the facts as presented. Did an improvement, was not approved, and was assessed for the damages. Period.
If you knew the facts, then you would have observed that state law requires a hearing, and LaskaS was not given a hearing.

You think a hearing is trivial. Again, how come LaskaS has to follow a rule but the Board does not?

It's outrageous that you come here telling Boards to break the law.
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 11:54 AM  
Posted By SheilaJ1 on 06/04/2021 11:45 AM
I think the best thing he can do is let the fine get to the attorney’s eye’s somehow, unless management does not forward past due fines to the attorney.
Yup, with the caveat that this is not a fine. It's an assessment for "property damage." Why am I being particular? Because this is exactly what the Texas COA statute calls it:

(d) Before an association may charge the unit owner for property damage for which the unit owner is liable or levy a fine for violation of the declaration, bylaws, or rules, the association shall give to the unit owner a written notice that:

(1) describes the violation or property damage and states the amount of the proposed fine or damage charge;

(2) states that not later than the 30th day after the date of the notice, the unit owner may request a hearing before the board to contest the fine or damage charge; and

(3) allows the unit owner a reasonable time, by a specified date, to cure the violation and avoid the fine unless the unit owner was given notice and a reasonable opportunity to cure a similar violation within the preceding 12 months.

Boards will get away with not following the law because it’s led by a bunch of amateurs that the court lets them slide on. Until Laska gets an attorney. there is no one to stop them. Does Texas have an Ombudsman? He could write them a letter but even those he must use the HOA’s complaint process and get a response or no response within like 60 days or something before forwarding it to Ombudsman.
Do you understand that Texas has no Ombudsman? Do you understand that very few states have anything like a HOA/COA Ombudsman?
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/04/2021 11:58 AM  
Okay, so it’s an assessment for property damage does an assessment require a notice or hearing in Texas?

Learning a lot about Texas today.

But to back up, did they fine him or assess him?
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/04/2021 11:59 AM  
Ok, well..

Let's all take a step back. First, thank you for all of the hoa talk forum members who have given me helpful information, answered my questions and given me some perspective and things to think about.

Mellissa , you seem to blame and criticize me are always the member who insists I am wrong. You don't have a clue.



Here is the update..


Ms. Laska S****** –



The fee of $770.00 for the plants/sprinkler have been removed from your account until proper notice is given and you are given the opportunity to be heard.


Mo***** *****a, Collection Manager

******ve Management Company |

Office: 713-7**-**** Ext. *** | Direct Phone: 281-***-**** | Fax: 713-7**-****

Email: m****[email protected]****.com

AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 12:02 PM  
Posted By SheilaJ1 on 06/04/2021 11:58 AM
Okay, so it’s an assessment for property damage does an assessment require a notice or hearing in Texas?
Did you read the section of the Texas Condo Statute I quoted above?

For at least the third time (in this thread), in Texas per the Texas Condo statute, an assessment for property damage requires a notice and hearing.


Learning a lot about Texas today.
At least you're humble.

But to back up, did they fine him or assess him?
It was an assessment.
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/04/2021 12:04 PM  
Great case closed.

Now you have to prepare for a hearing. But I think this looks like an assessment not a fine so you may still be liable, time to play nice with the board.
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 12:06 PM  
Posted By LaskaS on 06/04/2021 11:59 AM
Let's all take a step back.
I think not. There's nothing like telling a former out of control HOA president that she's a lawbreaking fool.

But okay, sure: I will defer to LaskaS's cooler mind prevailing at this time. Lest I start posting in all-caps, with exclamation marks, bolded, large font everything, flaming and spewing vitriol because a certain HOATalk "member" insists that Boards can break the law all day and every day.

[Stepping back]

First, thank you for all of the hoa talk forum members who have given me helpful information, answered my questions and given me some perspective and things to think about.

[snip point AugustinD already covered]

Here is the update..


Ms. Laska S****** –



The fee of $770.00 for the plants/sprinkler have been removed from your account until proper notice is given and you are given the opportunity to be heard.


Mo***** *****a, Collection Manager

******ve Management Company |

Office: 713-7**-**** Ext. *** | Direct Phone: 281-***-**** | Fax: 713-7**-****

Email: m****[email protected]****.com

Signs of intelligent life. Hurrah!
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/04/2021 12:11 PM  
Supporting my contention that Mellissa doesn't have a clue.

I was on the board for the last 3 years. Previously, my posts involved questions regarding intra-board issues. Specifically, failure to follow the bylaws. Biased, selective decision making. Failure of board members to properly investigate issues that they were voting on. False accusations and how to handle them. Board member whose account was not charged for work done by the association that is the responsibility of the owner.etc

Since I have resigned from the board , my posts have been about failure of the board to properly notify owners and give access to meetings. Failure of the board to ensure the association is upholding his responsibilities regarding maintenance of the common areas. and then recently, the charge added to my account that was voted on in secret and, thanks to this board, I learned not valid because the board didn't follow the due process requirements.


Mellissa also keeps referring to damage to the common areas. I clearly stated in a previous post. that the actual wording that the letter contained informing me that I my account had been charged $770 was...


re: Destruction of plants in common areas.


so, the liberal interpretation by some of you of "damage" is a moot point.

destruction of plants did not occur. I added plants to dirt.
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 12:13 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/04/2021 7:24 AM
Posted By LaskaS on 06/04/2021 12:37 AM
Max. I don't think augustine posts the information intending someone to hire a lawyer and go to court to prove the point.

I think augustine posts the information because it is helpful when determining whether a poster has any actual legal standing in their concern/complaint.

By sending the letter to the board and cc'ing the attorney. The idea is that the attorney will ask the board what's goin on. At some point the attorney is going to ask point blank, did you follow the procedures before assessing the charge yes or no. When they say no. The attorney would tell them the can't do that. And he will tell them they are wasting time and money.




As soon as you sent the letter, the fees were removed, right?
Correct. [Gloat]
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10523


06/04/2021 12:14 PM  
Whoopie they get hearing to yet again PROVE that what is obvious to every human with eyeballs. Plus I am sure the price just went up for calling the hearing to add on any other fees. I highly doubt Laska is going to win nothing but maybe a reduced expense to pay.

My HOA ran great and was very well run. Had a waiting list to get in and growing home values. Plus we were OPEN meetings to anything and everything. Extremely transparent. Plus had a 2 signature rule for all checks. So don't even go there with calling me a HOA Fool. I got better things to do. Plus I don't post legal stuff I don't have a license to practice or intrepret.

Former HOA President
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/04/2021 12:18 PM  
It’s good that you walked away from the board, honest or straight to the point kind of people usually don’t last long on leadership positions and that probably goes for most things where you have to deal with other peoples decisions.

So you have a few options and keep emailing them and say there is no need for any hearing or fines because no damage occurred perhaps they will drop this altogether or you can wait this out and see their next move.

But from my position, you did alter the common area, just depends on which side is looking at it.
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/04/2021 1:29 PM  
Sheila,

Just fyi, I'm a She, not He.



LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/04/2021 2:13 PM  
Sheila, I did alter the common area.
I have not denied that.

My contention is the claims of the manager that I destroyed plants and caused $770 in damage is not supported by any verifiable evidence.
The reason there was not verifiable evidence is because there were no plants destroyed.. the area was dirt and weeds. Changing an area after years of requesting proper repair and restoration was my final taking it into my own hands and spending my own money.

If the board were acting in good faith, the would thank me , realize how bad the rest of the common areas are and then proceed to restore the rest of the common grounds on the property. They also have the right to ask me to remove the plants I added . They have not done this. Because it's an improvement from plain dirt!

If there were 770 worth of destruction. there should be receipts to show this. I went back and reviewed all of the invoices financials for the association this year. NOT A SINGLE DOLLAR WAS SPENT ON plants or shrubs he claimed I destroyed.
Remember, I have pictures that show the area before I added anything. there are no plants or shrubs in the area.!

What we have here is a board member with personal vendettas who has used his position of trust on the condo board to supply the rest of the board with half truths and outright fabrications. The rest of the board accepts his information without question. That's a failure of the board members to independently investigate and inform themselves when making decisions for the association.

I fully expect to get a letter notifying me of a right to a hearing. When i receive it and the exact wording. If i have any questions I will most likely post here.

If i receive a letter that basically notifies me the board is considering assessing me 770 for destruction of plants and damage to the sprinkler. Will respond with a certified letter requesting a hearing and asking for receipts, vouchers and proof of said damage. JB is going to lose here. There were no plants . Any damage to a sprinkler is news to me. He needs to provide some kind of proof there was actual damage, and if there was, there needs to be some kind of evidence showing where the damage occured , when it occured, was it repaired. etc.. I checked the financials.. there was not sprinkler repair work done.
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:274


06/04/2021 2:25 PM  
Regardless of your reasoning all that matters is that they think you destroyed the area, your pictures don’t mean much because they already believe that the area was destroyed and know how the area was beforehand, it will be hard to overturn that, perhaps getting an unbiased neighbor to claim what your claiming, have them notarize a letter if they can’t attend in person or by teleconference.

From where I am standing, you have not flipped my decision, the assessment is forthcoming after the procedures are followed.

You need to start gathering support.

Sorry.
AugustinD


Posts:1675


06/04/2021 2:45 PM  
Posted By LaskaS on 06/04/2021 2:13 PM

My contention is the claims of the manager that I destroyed plants and caused $770 in damage is not supported by any verifiable evidence.
The reason there was not verifiable evidence is because there were no plants destroyed.. the area was dirt and weeds. Changing an area after years of requesting proper repair and restoration was my final taking it into my own hands and spending my own money.

[redacted stuff that I think is chutzpah; don't do it] They also have the right to ask me to remove the plants I added . They have not done this. Because it's an improvement from plain dirt!

If there were 770 worth of destruction. there should be receipts to show this. I went back and reviewed all of the invoices financials for the association this year. NOT A SINGLE DOLLAR WAS SPENT ON plants or shrubs he claimed I destroyed.
Remember, I have pictures that show the area before I added anything. there are no plants or shrubs in the area.!

[snip]

If i receive a letter that basically notifies me the board is considering assessing me 770 for destruction of plants and damage to the sprinkler. Will respond with a certified letter requesting a hearing and asking for receipts, vouchers and proof of said damage. JB is going to lose here. There were no plants . Any damage to a sprinkler is news to me. He needs to provide some kind of proof there was actual damage, and if there was, there needs to be some kind of evidence showing where the damage occured , when it occured, was it repaired. etc.. I checked the financials.. there was not sprinkler repair work done.
Shucks LaskaS I read the above and thought F. Lee Bailey had come back from the dead. I like your chances.
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/04/2021 2:50 PM  
just for further clarity to show that JB mischaracterized the results of what I added to the common area.

this is the other corner of the common area that I added plants to and filled dead spots where edge grass was supposed to be by dividing thick overgrown patches of the edge grass that were present.

In all fairness. this large area that is pictured, what little greenery and plantings that were there were killed by the freeze in february. The freeze and resulting death to most of the plants that were in this area weren't anyone fault. However the failure to address and hire the professionals necessary to restore the area are JB's fault. After the freeze, at a meeting of the board( i was still a member) I specifically asked the board to address the lack of proper repair and restoration of the courtyard. JB assured the board it would be taken care before summer. Knowing he has a history of promising something would get done but then never following through. I asked for him (as property manager) to provide the board with some kind of calendar or scope of work that was going to occur. He refused.

anyway..

I did change the area,, I didn't destroy anything. The board is within it's authority to tell me not to do anything more. They can also give me a deadline to remove the plants or they will remove them and bill me for it. Or they can leave it because it is an improvement and the area before was not acceptable.

what they can't do is assess my account 770 for phantom destruction and damage without due process.


Attachment: 164503262471.pdf

LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:527


06/04/2021 3:03 PM  
sheila


the board can not make arbitrary and capricious decisions




Decisions contrary to law or unsupported by substantial evidence are not within the exercise of sound administrative discretion, but are arbitrary and illegal acts."


I don't believe that a majority of the board will continue to just take JB's word for it. Especially now that they have been notified, by the lawyer i presume... NOPE you can't do that.

I mean, the bookkeeper didn't just suddenly decide to do me a favor. LOL... someone instructed her to remove the charges. That only occurred after I wrote the letter and cc'd the attorney.
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