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Subject: Banning people from Amenities
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Author Messages
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/08/2021 6:46 AM  

Yesterday we had a false start. The property manager did not communicate well with the pool cleaner, and the cleaner opened the pool. Because of Covid, our pool was last used in October of 2019.

Pent up demand and literately all hell broke loose. A person from a household that is "no stranger" to the community was drinking at the pool and began making unwanted passes at a sub-minor. An argument ensued and the Lord only knows what happened after. Try as I might, I do not see anything in our governing documents that says we can or cannot ban someone from the amenities, There is only a clause that says we cannot deny access to anyones lot. My two fellow board members are 100% completely on board with issuing a lifetime ban to all amenities to the homeowner and their guest.

I get crickets from the property manager.

What can I do, what verbiage could be in our governing documents to support a permanent ban?
AugustinD


Posts:961


05/08/2021 7:11 AM  
-- Condominium or non-condominium?

-- I believe a court would say a permanent ban is not reasonable and so is not allowed.

-- If your covenants have something about 'making reasonable rules concerning use of amenities, then this is the appropriate catch-all for suspending amenities for a certain reasonable period, hopefully along with assessing a fine.

--Common Interest Ownership Act section NRS 116.31031 (1) (a) (2) addresses suspension of amenities. Note the Act's definition of "governing documents" includes rules.

-- Regarding making passes at a minor: Without more details, I am not sure this is something the HOA/condo can address. The parents should consider calling the police.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2154


05/08/2021 7:24 AM  
Drinking alcohol at the pool may violate other rules as well, so if it's not in your list of things that can get a person removed from the premises, it should be added. Ditto using glass containers. Your insurer may have something helpful to say about this stuff.

I second the comment about the parents of the minor calling the police, but they need to be sure they have some supporting evidence - otherwise Mr. Socially Unacceptable may accuse them of defamation or something. HOAs aren't the police and don't have the authority to take appropriate action with stuff like this.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/08/2021 7:36 AM  
We are a single family home HOA
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8290


05/08/2021 9:16 AM  
Withholding amenities is in both our CC&Rs and Bylaws and, in fact, our Board just withheld Visitor Parking from an owner for a rules violation.

I don't think you can withhold if not indoor docs. Ask you HOA attorney -- quick phone call. Agree lifetime ban would be unreasonable.

Is alcohol banned at your pool? Glass containers? Was it glass? Put differently, what rules did the person read?

Do your docs permit fines?

One of our rules is no loud behavior at the pool area or in it.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/09/2021 7:52 AM  
Yes, Yes, and No Kerry Yes Alcohol is banned, Yes is was in a glass container and no I don't believe they read the rules, nor do they care. It is members of this household that a previous board voted to close the pool in the winter because they were jamming rocks in the gate leaving the gate open, and they were allowing homeless people to shower at the pool.


Currently is is a NO GUEST ALLOED, this is per CDC and local health department guidelines. As a board member on a 3-way email to the property manager, we asked for General Council advise if we can, One, send a notice to appear for a hearing and assess a $1000.00 fine The highest fine we can assess . The $1000.00 fine is for threatening the Health, safety and welfare of the community. The board uses this fine when people blow off fireworks. Second we requested a ban from amenities and for how long...

The request went in yesterday, will keep you posted..


AugustinD


Posts:961


05/09/2021 8:33 AM  
Posted By LetA on 05/09/2021 7:52 AM
As a board member on a 3-way email to the property manager, we asked for General Council advise if we can, One, send a notice to appear for a hearing and assess a $1000.00 fine The highest fine we can assess . The $1000.00 fine is for threatening the Health, safety and welfare of the community. The board uses this fine when people blow off fireworks. Second we requested a ban from amenities and for how long...

The request went in yesterday, will keep you posted..
I am being exacting here, for the archives.

If notice of the amount of the fine was not properly given, with a warning or two in advance depending on what the HOA's rules and Nevada law say, then I would not feel comfortable voting for the fine.

The family or person sounds like a real problem. For best results: Document everything; send notices of violations and warnings of fines in a timely fashion; and conduct hearings properly.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/09/2021 9:32 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 05/09/2021 8:33 AM
Posted By LetA on 05/09/2021 7:52 AM
As a board member on a 3-way email to the property manager, we asked for General Council advise if we can, One, send a notice to appear for a hearing and assess a $1000.00 fine The highest fine we can assess . The $1000.00 fine is for threatening the Health, safety and welfare of the community. The board uses this fine when people blow off fireworks. Second we requested a ban from amenities and for how long...

The request went in yesterday, will keep you posted..
I am being exacting here, for the archives.

If notice of the amount of the fine was not properly given, with a warning or two in advance depending on what the HOA's rules and Nevada law say, then I would not feel comfortable voting for the fine.

The family or person sounds like a real problem. For best results: Document everything; send notices of violations and warnings of fines in a timely fashion; and conduct hearings properly.





The person in question is a real problem in the community. They have been sent letters in the past and yet here we are again. The person in question has PTSD and is well known for waling the streets of the community screaming his head off when they go off their meds. Thats just one issue. The other issue is in the past they have been duly warned to stop giving the gate code to homeless people and leaving the pool gate ajar so people can come and go as they please to use the pool facilities. So it is my belief the person in question has been dully warned and informed.
AugustinD


Posts:961


05/09/2021 9:55 AM  
Posted By LetA on 05/09/2021 9:32 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 05/09/2021 8:33 AM
Posted By LetA on 05/09/2021 7:52 AM
As a board member on a 3-way email to the property manager, we asked for General Council advise if we can, One, send a notice to appear for a hearing and assess a $1000.00 fine The highest fine we can assess . The $1000.00 fine is for threatening the Health, safety and welfare of the community. The board uses this fine when people blow off fireworks. Second we requested a ban from amenities and for how long...

The request went in yesterday, will keep you posted..
I am being exacting here, for the archives.

If notice of the amount of the fine was not properly given, with a warning or two in advance depending on what the HOA's rules and Nevada law say, then I would not feel comfortable voting for the fine.

The family or person sounds like a real problem. For best results: Document everything; send notices of violations and warnings of fines in a timely fashion; and conduct hearings properly.


The person in question is a real problem in the community. They have been sent letters in the past and yet here we are again. The person in question has PTSD and is well known for waling the streets of the community screaming his head off when they go off their meds. Thats just one issue. The other issue is in the past they have been duly warned to stop giving the gate code to homeless people and leaving the pool gate ajar so people can come and go as they please to use the pool facilities. So it is my belief the person in question has been dully warned and informed.
-- I believe warning of the exact amount of the fine that will be incurred if the violation continues is key.

-- On meds and known to have PTSD sounds like a disability to me. AugustinD's claimed wisdom on the topic, not based in case law but in observing interactions with the mentally ill and with the Fair Housing Act's requirement for reasonable accommodation of the disabled: Being exact in communications is particularly vital with the mentally impaired. I am working with someone (for at least five minutes more) where I live who I am pretty sure is Bi-Polar. His communication skills are appalling; then again he has a legally recognized disability. What to do? Dot every i and cross every t when it comes to notice and hearings. (Where I am, the Board did not come close to dotting i's and crossing t's. The end result: Years of litigation. I can't say the HOA is winning, either.) Because of the disability, possibly give one more chance beyond that which someone not disabled would get.

-- Didn't you post about this dude before, around Dec 2018, at https://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/257272/view/topic/Default.aspx ? Since you now have a board majority who feels as you do, this sure sounds like progress. Granted costing you a lot of labor. Good job.

-- I hope the HOA attorney is involved in this one.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/09/2021 11:03 AM  
That is the one.. Tho we still have the same PM. sigh
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8290


05/09/2021 2:47 PM  
Has the Board ever fined this guy? Has he paid? Have you fined him repeatedly?

I do think a $1,000 fine for alcohol/glass at the pool is unreasonable, so will be interested to learn what your HOA attorney says,

It seems like you're blaming your PM, but the Board directs her/him. If the PM isn't performing to your contract with the person, get a new one. What odes your contract say re: violations, fines, etc.?
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/09/2021 6:05 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/09/2021 2:47 PM
Has the Board ever fined this guy? Has he paid? Have you fined him repeatedly?

I do think a $1,000 fine for alcohol/glass at the pool is unreasonable, so will be interested to learn what your HOA attorney says,

It seems like you're blaming your PM, but the Board directs her/him. If the PM isn't performing to your contract with the person, get a new one. What odes your contract say re: violations, fines, etc.?





To my Knowledge, No they have never fined him, they only send him pretty please letters. With the complaint that a member of his household was making lewd and lascivious comments to a child, I feel the steep fine is warranted. The PM shot back, we'll just send him a letter.

Sorry, not sorry, This household is no stranger to causing problems. The pool wasn't supposed to be open and this hot mess happens. All it takes is that one person to file an complaint and the HOA is finned for the misdeeds of this owner.

My recommendation is to close the pool indefinitely and discuss adding security to the pool and limiting the hours the pool operates. I work in the private security business, and this is going to cost $6000.00-$7000.00 per month at an end cost of $19-$23 added to assessments for each homeowner. I know nobody is going to support that. Even under the NRS dues increase allows the board I believe it is 15%, that comes in half of what would be needed to cover security coverage just for the pool.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10364


05/10/2021 4:21 AM  
It should be noted that the HOA is NOT the police. There is a difference between rule enforcement and Law breaking. Know the difference between callng the HOA President and calling your local Law enforcement.

Having glass at the pool is a safety issue. Being publicly drunk is a law enforcement issue. It's still can be considered public intoxication. So if the person is drunk at the pool, call the police or friend to escort them out.

Fines are for punitive corrective action of HOA rules. The police are for enforcement of laws.

We had a guy expose himself at the pool to a woman. The woman went home and called the police. That person was also one of our troubled members. He had several incidents of sexual misbehaviors. The best I could do is have the "victim" call the police and then pass the word to NOT allow women to be alone with this man. I would go to the "regulars" at the pool and whisper in their ear to NOT allow women to be alone with him. This helped as we had the ear of the community on him. Nothing we could do law enforcement wise as the police had to handle that side of things.

Former HOA President
KellyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:1735


05/10/2021 5:58 AM  
If the pool opened prematurely, then the answer is to close it back down and send a notice of the proper opening date. However, your dues payers clearly want the pool to be open and they're paying for it.

The offending member, given the behavior described, is a safety and security risk to your community, its adult members and its children. The offending member is violating HOA rules by refusing to ensure the entrance gate stays locked, which is for safety reasons as much as to stop trespassing.

In my experience, I would advise the board the consult with its attorney as well as the local law enforcement in your town to discuss options. If you're dealing with PTSD issues, it makes things much more delicate but such a situation does call for securing your facilities and ensuring the safety of your community.

This seems to be addressable by any number of reasons and justifications.

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8290


05/10/2021 9:00 AM  
So, LetA, teethes guy, who's been giving your HOA prelims since at least 2018 has never been called to hearing and fined???? The Board, and you're on it, could find yourselves in trouble for not enforcing rules concerning safety.

The Board MUST instruct the PM to to follow the correct procedures to fine this guy. "You're calling the PM "they." "They" never fine him. But uncharge of all this is you board members. Do let us know what you attorney says today.

LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/10/2021 12:11 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/10/2021 9:00 AM
So, LetA, teethes guy, who's been giving your HOA prelims since at least 2018 has never been called to hearing and fined???? The Board, and you're on it, could find yourselves in trouble for not enforcing rules concerning safety.

The Board MUST instruct the PM to to follow the correct procedures to fine this guy. "You're calling the PM "they." "They" never fine him. But uncharge of all this is you board members. Do let us know what you attorney says today.







Let me ash you this Kerry since we are a gated community, the streets are private. If bad behavior like I describes occurs within the confines of the gate, i.e. streets, sidewalks etc, the board has a duty to act?

My belief it is the board's duty to act. This is where I get some resistance from at least one other board member, they consider this a neighbor vs neighbor issue.

Belive me, I will update when I I get the opinion of GC. Sorry for the They reference to the PM, trying to keep this as anonymous as possible.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8290


05/10/2021 12:47 PM  
I don't think the board has a duty to act if a man makes lewd remarks to a minor. You may not have a rule against it. It's a neighbor-neighbor issue and maybe a police matter.

The residents breaks rules on your HOA's premises, it's on the Board, if the rule-breaking is corroborated by someone other than the combining resident, or pics, etc.

I am sorry about my poor typing, LetA. I've been trying to point out that the Board is responsible for the safety of residents of your HOA, NOT the PM.

Alcohol in a glass container is NOT a neighbor-neighbor issue. I don't get how another board member thinks that it is. If the PM is not following your hearing and fining procedures, then the Board must enforce this rule by instructing the PM with its vote to follow your HOA's written hearing and fining procedures. You do have some, right? NV statues might help?

If a board turns a blind eye to known dangerous behavior or hazards, its member can be liable. Pretty sure I saw this in case law.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/21/2021 10:44 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/10/2021 12:47 PM
I don't think the board has a duty to act if a man makes lewd remarks to a minor. You may not have a rule against it. It's a neighbor-neighbor issue and maybe a police matter.

The residents breaks rules on your HOA's premises, it's on the Board, if the rule-breaking is corroborated by someone other than the combining resident, or pics, etc.

I am sorry about my poor typing, LetA. I've been trying to point out that the Board is responsible for the safety of residents of your HOA, NOT the PM.

Alcohol in a glass container is NOT a neighbor-neighbor issue. I don't get how another board member thinks that it is. If the PM is not following your hearing and fining procedures, then the Board must enforce this rule by instructing the PM with its vote to follow your HOA's written hearing and fining procedures. You do have some, right? NV statues might help?

If a board turns a blind eye to known dangerous behavior or hazards, its member can be liable. Pretty sure I saw this in case law.






Half the battle, the person in question has been summoned to a hearing..
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8290


05/21/2021 10:55 AM  
It's start.

So, did the Board instruct the PM to call this guy to a hearing?
What are the alleged violations that'll be brought up at the hearing?
Does your HOA have a fining schedule?

What did your HOA attorney advise?
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:923


05/21/2021 1:35 PM  
You should probably consult with an attorney because the answer is probably different state to state. Our governing documents are silent on banning owners from amenities but the do say essentially that the board controls the amenities. Our attorney advised that we could ban or suspend owner's from the amenities as long as the board created rules stating such.

I would say you could not do it until you establish and publish rules to that effect.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/21/2021 2:07 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/21/2021 10:55 AM
It's start.

So, did the Board instruct the PM to call this guy to a hearing?
What are the alleged violations that'll be brought up at the hearing?
Does your HOA have a fining schedule?

What did your HOA attorney advise?




Yes, a group email with the latest act by the homeowner pretty much made that happen. General nuisance violations Max fine $100. Yes there is a fining schedule.
waiting on the GC opinion if we can institute a one calendar year ban from the pool.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8290


05/21/2021 4:40 PM  
Your situation of an owner constantly violating the written rules of your HOA might help others who read these posts. Please, then give us some clarity.

You wrote: "... a group email with the latest act by the homeowner pretty much made that happen." Was this "group email" from other owners complaining? If so, who was it sent to?

I'd still like to know what alleged violations of your written rules he's being charged with.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/22/2021 6:50 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/21/2021 4:40 PM
Your situation of an owner constantly violating the written rules of your HOA might help others who read these posts. Please, then give us some clarity.

You wrote: "... a group email with the latest act by the homeowner pretty much made that happen." Was this "group email" from other owners complaining? If so, who was it sent to?

I'd still like to know what alleged violations of your written rules he's being charged with.





No the Group email was between we BOD's an the PM. It was I that witnessed the guy throw the dog in the pool. The violation falls under the general nuisance and causing disturbances covenant and specifically cited having a dog in the pool and in the water.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8290


05/28/2021 5:21 PM  
So....heard from your GC yet?
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1321


05/28/2021 6:12 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/28/2021 5:21 PM
So....heard from your GC yet?




Yep, They are going to give it a good scrub and an acid wash, and going to ask the HD inspector to reassess. They could have just did a visual and the dirt stains gave the reflection and illusion in the water that they plaster was pitting and chipping., And it could be the way the quartz looks. Crew was there this morn with a floor buffer with the scrub brush and cleaned the deck. Much of the discoloration is from water stains which I find laughable because the pool was completely closed down last year. The deck was resurfaced just before the ordered shutdown. Next on the agenda is to ask the landscapers to run the irrigation system to check for leaks. I am just at a loss for words on how a brand new laid deck can look ten years old when it wasn't used for an entire year.

Going to have to look for a company that has a much better product.
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