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Subject: flagpoles
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Author Messages
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/07/2007 5:32 PM  
Does anyone allow flagpoles in their neighborhoods? If so do you have some regulations/wording on what is acceptable? I have a homeowner that wants one really bad and our board is trying to figure out what we want to allow. I am assuming it fall under the category of "structures" that need approval before going up.
JamesC
(Maryland)

Posts:282


03/07/2007 5:54 PM  
Brad:

Our community does not allow flag poles in the yards. Permitted are ones attached to the front of the homes.
However! Before I become a member of the board I inquired at one of the board meetings about having a pole in the yard. The president told me NO, they were not permitted.
A lady sitting next to me said it was not true, and to put in an arc request.
I did, and waited until the thirty day notification to see if it was rejected or not. I waited an additional two weeks, and heard nothing. Put the flag pole up and five days later I received notice from the attorney. I was told me I had fifteen days to remove it.
I went to my own attorney, and at a cost of $300.00, I was able to keep my flag/pole.
Reason was, the arc committee did not respond within the time frame because they said everyone was on vacation. Nothing in our rules/regulations says every thing is on hold while board takes vacation.
I know they won't let that happen again. Unless the next person is willing to spend the money on attorney's fees mine will be the only one in the yard.

Jim;
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/07/2007 6:58 PM  
Jim:

Thanks, they submitted a request and it was denied. Now they want to know why and want to discuss at a board meeting.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:9136


03/07/2007 9:16 PM  
I would offer this compromise. Why not put a flagpole at the entrance of the HOA/community? That way no "individual" could have one but the whole community shares in one. That is what we did. I put up a flagpole at our front entrance with the blessing of the homeowner's. The flag was donated. We had someone that took care of the lowering and raising of the flag when necessary.
I would HIGHLY suggest looking up the proper care of flags and flying flags on a flagpole. There are "rules" or "Flag etiquette". One is that if you fly the flag at night, it MUST be lit by a light. Otherwise, it has to be taken down at sundown and put back up at sunrise. So buy a good spot light that is light activated. Be careful of the size of the flag and pole as well. Make sure if you add additional flags like state or HOA's they are under the US one.
There are many more such "etiquettes" I would strongly urge you to follow. We had a few retired military people in our HOA. Believe me, you flew the flag wrong, we heard about it! It was a matter of respect to make sure we flew the flag properly. An issue overlooked by many people who want to fly the flag or put up poles. Do it right or don't do it at all.

Former HOA President
LindaC3


Posts:0


03/08/2007 5:46 AM  
Brad--- Check your State laws regarding flags and flag poles... We here in Florida have a Statute that FORBIDS Hoa's from denying anyone the RIGHT to fly THE AMERICAN FLAG on their own property ......And for those other HOA'S that don't allow it- You should be ASHAMED of yourselves......This COuntry was built around the Flag and that it stands for....You could set up rules as to the height of the flag pole and restrict it to say The American Flag and whatever Armed Services the H/O served in----- My son (deceased) was a Sgt in the U.S.M.C. and I would fight till I died for MY RIGHT to fly a Flag in his Honor and the Honor all those who fought to keep this One Nation Under God.............LindaC
JamesC
(Maryland)

Posts:282


03/08/2007 5:55 AM  
Brad:
03/08/2007 2:58 AM Quote Reply

You say: "They submitted a request and it was denied. Now they want to know why and want to discuss at a board meeting."

WHAT WAS THE REASON YOU GAVE ON THEIR ARC REQUEST FOR DENIAL?

After I put mine up (Right after 9-11) and received the demand to take it down, my attorney was given this reason: The board had politically correct concerns they would begin to see other national flags, other then the U.S. flag being put up.
The comment above about putting one at the front entrance would be great, but there will come a time when some ethnic group will raise questions similiar to religious issues
and want other national flags to be flown.
This is a tough ONE. I would like to see some additional comments from other communities
on this issues.

Jim

JamesC
(Maryland)

Posts:282


03/08/2007 6:02 AM  
Linda:

Great post: Don't know what could be said after that, except America, surely thanks your son for his service.

Jim
JanM
(Texas)

Posts:142


03/08/2007 6:37 AM  
We are allowed flag poles. The only restriction is the height (only a few feet taller than a 1-story home). No permit is required. There are flag poles at every other house in our neighborhood and some choose to hang off their eaves or their boat docks, sometimes all 3. Of course being in Texas, we are also allowed to fly the Texas flag on poles, either under the US or on a separate pole. We also have a "community" flag at the clubhouse which is maintained by the board.
As far as other groups wanting to fly flags of other nations, this is America and only the American flag should be displayed. We have had the issue of the mexican flag being flown in public places and a lot of displeasure of that fact. Luckily, those flags were removed. Would say more but the rules say I gotta be nice...:)
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/08/2007 6:43 AM  
Linda:

Before you flame me you should understand that we are not stopping them from flying the flag. Our board has agreed that it is ok to fly it off of the front or your home or garage with a bracket that attaches to the home.

James: The reason given is that the board and ARC is in the process of trying to decide what is acceptable and what is not acceptable and we had to give them an answer within 30 days. So for right now until we have parameters set the request is denied and they were told that.

Linda you make a great point about the right to fly the flag. However, after working in a public venue and getting nasty calls and emails when flag etiquette was not followed I am not sure I am big fan of letting someone put up a pole in their yard and then disgrace the flag. You are potentially turning off prospective buyers who see that and are offended. As Melissa said if you don't know how to fly it correctly then don't. I realize we have to let them have them display the flag and we can't be the etiquette police, however, to me putting it on a bracket on the front of your home draws less attention than a pole in the yard.
LindaC3


Posts:0


03/08/2007 7:02 AM  
Brad--- As a person who is in the Construction industry I can tell you that the fascia of most homes are not designed to have a bracket installed on them with a Flag attached to it....The wind blowing the Flag all around will at some point in time cause the fascia to have damage......Whether the Flag is attached at the house or on a pole - Proper Flag Etiquette must be followed....You would be surprised how many do not even know that such a thing exists..Maybe your HOA could print and distribute this information to all persons requesting the Right to diplay an American Flag...My HOA here has a Flag at one of our entrances FOR YEARS and I was truly disgusted when I moved here to see that Flag protocol was not being followed...I purchased solar spot lights and installed them my self ....... The Flag and all that it stands for is very near and dear to my heart- as it should be for all us- especially in these trying times.....Instead of people bitching about this make it an oppurtunity to EDUCATE ANS ACCEPT........JMHO LindaC
JamesC
(Maryland)

Posts:282


03/08/2007 7:09 AM  
I'm pretty sure that when you purchase a flag it comes with a folder specifing the proper ways, and when to fly the flag.
Brad; our homes also have the poles/brackets attached to the houses. I have seen several who fly the flag like a banner instead of pointing it up, and then I have seen football banners, holiday, ethnic banners, and others pointing up and not being displayed as banners.
Proper respect for the flag is a must.
I purchase all weather flags, and have a photo cell light for display at nights.
I follow the etiquette's when flying the flag, and when I have taken it down (couple hurricanes, or very severe weather) my neighbors now call to see when I would be putting it back.
I am proud to fly the flag, for those who have served or died in the service of our country.

Jim
LindaC3


Posts:0


03/08/2007 7:13 AM  
THANK YOU JIM...................My hat is off to you for your Patriotism.....LindaC
WilliamT
(Arizona)

Posts:489


03/08/2007 7:34 AM  


1. Read and understand the National Flag Laws.

2. Read and understand your State Flag Laws.

3. Then see how your CC&R's can fit in.

In AZ flags and poles are allowed, in accordance with National and State laws, and HOA's are able to control the size and placement of the poles.

LindaC3


Posts:0


03/08/2007 7:43 AM  
I have posted the Florida State Statute with regards to Flags for your reading pleasure...LindaC



720.304 Right of owners to peaceably assemble; display of flag; SLAPP suits prohibited.--

(1) All common areas and recreational facilities serving any homeowners' association shall be available to parcel owners in the homeowners' association served thereby and their invited guests for the use intended for such common areas and recreational facilities. The entity or entities responsible for the operation of the common areas and recreational facilities may adopt reasonable rules and regulations pertaining to the use of such common areas and recreational facilities. No entity or entities shall unreasonably restrict any parcel owner's right to peaceably assemble or right to invite public officers or candidates for public office to appear and speak in common areas and recreational facilities.

(2) Any homeowner may display one portable, removable United States flag or official flag of the State of Florida in a respectful manner, and on Armed Forces Day, Memorial Day, Flag Day, Independence Day, and Veterans Day may display in a respectful manner portable, removable official flags, not larger than 41/2 feet by 6 feet, which represent the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard, regardless of any declaration rules or requirements dealing with flags or decorations.

(3) Any owner prevented from exercising rights guaranteed by subsection (1) or subsection (2) may bring an action in the appropriate court of the county in which the alleged infringement occurred, and, upon favorable adjudication, the court shall enjoin the enforcement of any provision contained in any homeowners' association document or rule that operates to deprive the owner of such rights.

(4) It is the intent of the Legislature to protect the right of parcel owners to exercise their rights to instruct their representatives and petition for redress of grievances before the various governmental entities of this state as protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and s. 5, Art. I of the State Constitution. The Legislature recognizes that "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation" or "SLAPP" suits, as they are typically called, have occurred when members are sued by individuals, business entities, or governmental entities arising out of a parcel owner's appearance and presentation before a governmental entity on matters related to the homeowners' association. However, it is the public policy of this state that government entities, business organizations, and individuals not engage in SLAPP suits because such actions are inconsistent with the right of parcel owners to participate in the state's institutions of government. Therefore, the Legislature finds and declares that prohibiting such lawsuits by governmental entities, business entities, and individuals against parcel owners who address matters concerning their homeowners' association will preserve this fundamental state policy, preserve the constitutional rights of parcel owners, and assure the continuation of representative government in this state. It is the intent of the Legislature that such lawsuits be expeditiously disposed of by the courts.

(a) As used in this subsection, the term "governmental entity" means the state, including the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government, the independent establishments of the state, counties, municipalities, districts, authorities, boards, or commissions, or any agencies of these branches which are subject to chapter 286.

(b) A governmental entity, business organization, or individual in this state may not file or cause to be filed through its employees or agents any lawsuit, cause of action, claim, cross-claim, or counterclaim against a parcel owner without merit and solely because such parcel owner has exercised the right to instruct his or her representatives or the right to petition for redress of grievances before the various governmental entities of this state, as protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and s. 5, Art. I of the State Constitution.

(c) A parcel owner sued by a governmental entity, business organization, or individual in violation of this section has a right to an expeditious resolution of a claim that the suit is in violation of this section. A parcel owner may petition the court for an order dismissing the action or granting final judgment in favor of that parcel owner. The petitioner may file a motion for summary judgment, together with supplemental affidavits, seeking a determination that the governmental entity's, business organization's, or individual's lawsuit has been brought in violation of this section. The governmental entity, business organization, or individual shall thereafter file its response and any supplemental affidavits. As soon as practicable, the court shall set a hearing on the petitioner's motion, which shall be held at the earliest possible time after the filing of the governmental entity's, business organization's or individual's response. The court may award the parcel owner sued by the governmental entity, business organization, or individual actual damages arising from the governmental entity's, individual's, or business organization's violation of this section. A court may treble the damages awarded to a prevailing parcel owner and shall state the basis for the treble damages award in its judgment. The court shall award the prevailing party reasonable attorney's fees and costs incurred in connection with a claim that an action was filed in violation of this section.

(d) Homeowners' associations may not expend association funds in prosecuting a SLAPP suit against a parcel owner.

(
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:5067


03/08/2007 7:59 AM  
Thanks William, I think your guidelines apply for every HOA. And as several posts have indicated this issue can become very emotional so every Board should take this into consideration. There would have to be a very good reason before I would not allow a REASONABLE flag pole. And showing respect for the U. S. flag is needed. Unfortunately, I think this has been lost in all the "politically correct" trap, or dare I say crap, that is espouced these days.

As an aside, this reminded me of an incident which happened while I was in high school. I was one of the volunteers who raised and lowered the flag each day; and we were taught how to properly fold and care for the flag. One night the Principal called my parents and asked me to go to the high school and take the flag down (I lived one block from the school). The flag volunteers that day had forgotten to take it down. Several neighbors called the Principal and were irate. Back in the "good old days" everyone knew not to fly an unlit flag at night!
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/08/2007 10:07 AM  
Roger:

There is the million dollar question, what would you consider a reasonable flag pole? What is a reasonable height, location, etc? Those are things we are struggling with. The request we got showed the location where he wanted to place it but didn't include any height or any landscaping or any lights on it, etc.
HaroldS1
(Arizona)

Posts:314


03/08/2007 10:15 AM  
Arizona allows more than just the US and Arizona flags that can be flown in HOAs. Here are all the flags which Arizona allows in overruling HOA documents:
A. Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit the outdoor display of any of the following:

1. The American flag or an official or replica of a flag of the United States army, navy, air force, marine corps or coast guard by an association member on that member's property if the American flag or military flag is displayed in a manner consistent with the federal flag code (P.L. 94-344; 90 Stat. 810; 4 United States Code sections 4 through 10).

2. The POW/MIA flag.

3. The Arizona state flag.

4. An Arizona Indian nations flag.

So if I were an Army veteran, a native American, and had a family member MIA/POW and of course the US and Arizona flags, I could erect five flag poles and our HOA could only regulate the size and locations? After all it would be incongruous to require me to fly all five flags from one pole no higher than a one story home. And then if my wife were a Navy veteran, and our son a Marine, and a daughter in the Air Force............. Harold
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:5067


03/08/2007 10:15 AM  
[quote]Posted By BradP on 03/08/2007 10:07 AM
There is the million dollar question, what would you consider a reasonable flag pole? What is a reasonable height, location, etc? Those are things we are struggling with. The request we got showed the location where he wanted to place it but didn't include any height or any landscaping or any lights on it, etc.[/quote]

Brad, your ARC can either approve subject to conditions which the ARC lists or disapprove due to insufficient information and provide a list what is needed. In the future your HOA may wish to provide ARC guidelines to all members which include this information.
LindaC3


Posts:0


03/08/2007 10:18 AM  
Brad.....In my opinion I would say that you recieved an incomplete application from the homeowner....Does your HOA have specific guidelines for the installation of flagpoles ? And it not ,maybe now would be a good time for all the members working with the BOD compile some guidelines as to this topic..... I hate the word RULES so for sake of agrument I use the word Guidelines...I would venture to say that your Building dept may guide you with the height requirements as they are at least in Florida considered somewhat of a structure and have to follow building codes because of hurricanes and the posiibility of them being projectiles in the vent of a storm.... I am sure that a 'reasonable height" would be 12 ft......I am sure you dont want the TRUMP HEIGHT.....He installed a HUGH flagpole at his estate in Palm Beach and currently is being sued to have it removed because of the City imposed height restrictions...... Hope you find some of this helpful to you......LindaC
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/08/2007 11:28 AM  
Linda:

Everyone has been helpful and suggestions are appreciated. I wish my state was more proactive in defining what can and can't be done with regards to hoa's, but they are not.

To answer your question we don't have any guidelines on flagpoles in our documents. Basically it is lumped into the category of "structures" and the only wording on it is that you need approval to put up. It kind of leaves it wide open to interpretation.

That is a good thought to check with the city on codes, we are in tornado alley and winds 50 - 60 mph are not uncommon throughout the year at times. They originally put one up that was 20 foot tall and I asked them to take it down because they had not submitted a request. Hopefully some common ground can be found.
JamesC
(Maryland)

Posts:282


03/08/2007 12:11 PM  
I saw on Fox and Friends a couple months ago that Donald Trump, was in trouble with the
association, and the flag he was flying at one of his homes in Florida.
The pole was probably sixty feet high with an oversized flag. He has the money to fight and will probably not have to take it down. It sure was a beautiful sight. (maybe sissy statement, but I think there is nothing better looking then our flag) Have not heard anymore about Trumps, flag.
I thought the rules on this was not to be higher then one's roof top, and most flag poles come in the twenty-foot range. Mine is twenty-two feet. Little past the gutter level of the third floor.

Jim
JM2
(Oregon)

Posts:439


03/08/2007 12:14 PM  
Hello Brad:

I'm in Oregon, here is our Architectural Guideline:

Flag poles that are attached to a structure are permitted at the maximum height of 5 feet with a maximum flag size of 3'x5'. Separate poles erected on personal property must be a maximum of 15 feet tall. ARC must approve prior to installation.

We are considering some possible changes to this, in part to insert language relating to the proper ettiquette of the American flag; in part to address location with regard to neighboring views; and in part, to possibly allow a temporary flagpole (sleeve in ground, flag goes up for holidays only).

Our ARC deals mostly with the flagpole and not so much with what kind of flag is flown. We have a gay couple who fly the gay pride flag and other seasonal flags (I didn't know it was a gay pride flag until someone pointed that out to me, and I didn't care), another family flew a Jolly Roger flag for a while. With all the media hysteria over HOA's and flags, it's very important to always deal with the pole's approval and location, and not with the flag itself. This gets crazy when there's a condo and someone (inevitably) wants to erect their pole on a general common element.

J. Patrick Moore, CMCA
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


03/08/2007 12:37 PM  
From the Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005:

SEC. 3. RIGHT TO DISPLAY THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES.
A condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association may not adopt or enforce any policy, or enter into any agreement, that would restrict or prevent a member of the association from displaying the flag of the United States on residential property within the association with respect to which such member has a separate ownership interest or a right to exclusive possession or use.
SEC. 4. LIMITATIONS.
Nothing in this Act shall be considered to permit any display or use that is inconsistent with--
(1) any provision of chapter 1 of title 4, United States Code, or any rule or custom pertaining to the proper display or use of the flag of the United States (as established pursuant to such chapter or any otherwise applicable provision of law); or
(2) any reasonable restriction pertaining to the time, place, or manner of displaying the flag of the United States necessary to protect a substantial interest of the condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association.

(See the law at: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-42 )

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/08/2007 2:51 PM  
Glen:

Thanks for the link, I am not good at reading this stuff so bear with me. Am I reading this right that an association has the right to place restrictions on placement and size to protect itself? The individual must display the flag correctly?
PatrickH
(California)

Posts:204


03/08/2007 2:57 PM  
Brad,

We allow the small flags that are put into those brackets that attach to the outside of the homes. We are townhomes, so no one owns the small greenbelt areas in front of their homes to install a freestanding flag pole.

In your case, you may want to deny the request until your HOA works out some acceptable guidelines for freestanding poles. Go to the guy who wants to put one up and tell him that you don't have any guidelines yet since no one had ever requested a flag pole and ask him if he would be willing to help determine the guidelines. Hopefully, he will want to get involved since it is something that affects him directly and will feel like he is part of the solution.
JosephW
(Michigan)

Posts:882


03/09/2007 8:19 AM  
The full "Freedom to Fly the American Flag Act is below. Here are some of the pertinent points:

1. You have the right to put up a pole and American flag, if you own or have "exclusive use and control" of the property on which it would be placed. That means for condos, you can't put a pole in the front yard or just about anywhere outside the unit, other than a patio area that you have exclusive use of. If you're in an HOA, and you own the property around the home you can.

2) The flag must be flown in accordance with US Code. Here is a link to that code:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode04/usc_sup_01_4_10_1.html

3) The association can place reasonable restrictions on the size of the pole and flag, the times it may be flown and the location of the pole.

4) Since federal law is higher up the chain than state law, states cannot put greater restrictions on the flying of the flag, but can further reduce the restictions, or expand them to other types of flags (state flag, POW, etc.)

Now, a few other items:

The Fox News story about Teresa Richards and her pole always left out that she lived in condo and put the pole in common property, which she did not own, nor did she have the exclusive right to use. They also conveniently left that part of "exclusive ownership" out of their references to the Flag Act.

The Trump issue was about the size and noise, not the flag. We had a similar one here in Michigan a few years back when a homeowner put up one of those huge flags in his front yard. The neighbor complained about the noise (it was left up unlit for 24 hours a day) and it quickly became a "media event" about patriotism. The neighbor said it was the noise and when it got to court, asked if he was to use a boombox to blast the Star Spangled Banner into his neigbors bedroom window at 3AM every night, would the flag flyer feel just as patriotic.

Last, and this is where the fun always starts. No HOA or condo prevents people from having or flying an American Flag. You can do that in your home 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. That is no less patriotic than flying it outside, but that never seems to matter. An association can sometimes prevent, or control, or limit what you can do outside, as every owner who ever moved into an association agreed to (whether knowingly or not depending on whether they read the documents or not). To challenge a board's patriotism because it's trying to deal with more issues than just a single flag pole is small. They do have to think "down the road" Case in point: Does allowing Christmas displays mean allowing other religious symbols (or requirements). This isn't being "politically correct", it's being fair to all members of the association. Its no fun to have to draw a line somewhere, there's always someone on the other side of it.

Joe


Freedom to Fly the American Flag Act

An Act

To ensure that the right of an individual to display the flag of the United States on residential property not be abridged.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005'.

SEC. 2. DEFINITIONS.

For purposes of this Act--

(1) the term `flag of the United States' has the meaning given the term `flag, standard, colors, or ensign' under section 3 of title 4, United States Code;

(2) the terms `condominium association' and `cooperative association' have the meanings given such terms under section 604 of Public Law 96-399 (15 U.S.C. 3603);

(3) the term `residential real estate management association' has the meaning given such term under section 528 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (26 U.S.C. 528); and

(4) the term `member'--

(A) as used with respect to a condominium association, means an owner of a condominium unit (as defined under section 604 of Public Law 96-399 (15 U.S.C. 3603)) within such association;

(B) as used with respect to a cooperative association, means a cooperative unit owner (as defined under section 604 of Public Law 96-399 (15 U.S.C. 3603)) within such association; and

(C) as used with respect to a residential real estate management association, means an owner of a residential property within a subdivision, development, or similar area subject to any policy or restriction adopted by such association.

SEC. 3. RIGHT TO DISPLAY THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES.

A condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association may not adopt or enforce any policy, or enter into any agreement, that would restrict or prevent a member of the association from displaying the flag of the United States on residential property within the association with respect to which such member has a separate ownership interest or a right to exclusive possession or use.

SEC. 4. LIMITATIONS.

Nothing in this Act shall be considered to permit any display or use that is inconsistent with--

(1) any provision of chapter 1 of title 4, United States Code, or any rule or custom pertaining to the proper display or use of the flag of the United States (as established pursuant to such chapter or any otherwise applicable provision of law); or

(2) any reasonable restriction pertaining to the time, place, or manner of displaying the flag of the United States necessary to protect a substantial interest of the condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association.

Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net

*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


03/10/2007 7:30 AM  
So what would an association do if a member displayed a flag that some other members found offensive?

A Confederate flag?
A Nazi flag?
A flag of a country the United States is at war with?

Ron
SC
LindaC3


Posts:0


03/10/2007 7:42 AM  
RonaldW-- I do believe that the HOA could deny the flying of flags that are generally considered offensive and unpatriotic.... Confederate flag Yes...........nazi flag......... Please when was the last time you saw someone fly one of these ??? Members of the KKK DON"T LIVE IN DEED RESTRICTED COMMUNITIES.....Too many rules.. Country we are war with ???......NEVER ........... You fly the Flag to show respect and love for your Country ..The United States of America.....Being from a military household and having a son that is a Marine we all grew up with sense of pride ........... America--- Love her or LEAVE............JMHO LindaC
JosephW
(Michigan)

Posts:882


03/10/2007 8:01 AM  
Linda,

Actually, many of the original deed-restricted communities in this country were designed to keep blacks and other minorites out, with specific restrictions prohibiting ownership of a home in that community unless you were white, so the KKK probably did live in them. Anyhow----

The question is still how do you decide where to draw that line. Let's say you decide that only the Amercian Flag is OK, just to keep the potential problems down. Then someone asks to fly the Marine Corps flag on it's birthday. Say yes to that and now you have to let the other service flags fly also. Then there's the state flag, POW flag, flags of various colleges and universities on Saturdays in the fall, etc.

I'm not saying you shouldn't allow all of them, but the problem is somemone will always take it one step further.

How do you decide where to draw the line?

Joe

Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net

*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal
PatrickH
(California)

Posts:204


03/10/2007 8:33 AM  
Ron,

Actually, I think your question is pretty valid. It may not be a flag from another country, but now there are flags for everything you can think of.

My HOA is in Orange County, CA so we have people here from all over the country. On Saturdays and Sundays during football season, you should see all the flags flying supporting different football teams, especially our two local college teams, USC and UCLA. If the Dodgers or Angels make the postseason, out come the Angel or Dodger flags.

I have a neighbor who has flag for seemingly every month of the year, a Valentine's Day flag, a St. Patrick's day flag, an Easter flag, etc.

Personally, I like it. We live in townhouses, so every home looks pretty much the same. The variety of flags gives a little personality and individuality to my neighborhhod.

During my six years on the Board, we never has anyone come to us with a complaint about a neighbor's flag. Since we have no written guidelines about what type of flags are permitted, I probably would have defferred to the First Ammendment and recommended that the complainant take their problem to the government for a decision. It's too complex an issue for a group of volunteer homeowners to rule on.

I think the HOA should have guidelines about the size, location, design and construction of a flag pole, but when it comes to what type of flags can be flown, I wouldn't touch that. That's more of a First Ammendment issue, so unless you want spend a fortune fighting against someone's claim of "Freedom of Speech", I wouldn't go there.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


03/10/2007 1:32 PM  
[quote]Posted By LindaC3 on 03/10/2007 7:42 AM

RonaldW-- I do believe that the HOA could deny the flying of flags that are generally considered offensive and unpatriotic.... Confederate flag Yes...........nazi flag.........[/quote]

Linda (and others),

I didn't post my question in order to offend or disrespect anyone or the United States of America. I beleive the Federal government and many State governments have laws prohibiting HOAs from banning the display of the United States flag.

The problem becomes when a homeowner wants to display a flag that may be offensive to others in the development (a Confederate flag would be an example). If an HOA allows flags other than those protected by law to be flown, how could they possibly restrict the type of flag? It's political expression (possibly at its worst). In South Carolina there is a lingering fight over the display of the Confederate flag. Every few days there is a letter to the editor of the local paper either defending the NAACP boycot of SC because of the display of the Confederate flag on the statehouse grounds or defending the honor of ancestors who "defended their homeland against the invaders from the north". One of the latter came from a member of our community. Suppose he decides to plant a flagpole in his yard and fly a Confederate flag? Suppose his neighbors are offended and complain to the BOD? We have people who fly the US flag and we have people who fly smaller flags of their favorite college. How could we legally restrict his freedom of political expression based on our personal values while allowing others to express their political beliefs because we agree with them?


Ron
SC
NancyL1
(Florida)

Posts:7


03/12/2007 6:13 PM  
[quote]Posted By WilliamT on 03/08/2007 7:34 AM



1. Read and understand the National Flag Laws.

2. Read and understand your State Flag Laws.

3. Then see how your CC&R's can fit in.

In AZ flags and poles are allowed, in accordance with National and State laws, and HOA's are able to control the size and placement of the poles.

[/quote]

An excellent point. Our CCR allows for what they call a "portable" flag pole and that the American flag can be displayed in a "proper" manner. It is a symbol of respect for our Flag and our Nation to display the flag properly. I also like the suggestion of putting flag pole at the community entrance.
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