Get 1 year of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Tuesday, November 30, 2021











HOATalk is a free service of Community123.com:

Easy to use website tools to help your board
Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.
Subject: Making unqualified volunteers qualified
Prev Next
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Page 1 of 212 > >>
Author Messages
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


07/24/2013 8:09 PM  
In a different thread, a comment was suggested that attorneys (perhaps others) prey on the "unqualified volunteers" that serve on an Associations Board of Directors.
I'd be the first to admit that many, perhaps most, Associations have no requirements to serve as Director. Others may only have the requirement that they be members of the Association. Therefore, I can see how unqualified individuals may be elected or appointed to serve.

To this end, I ask the following questions:

1) What would you consider to be valid requirements to make an individual qualified to serve as a Director?

2) Should there be professional licensing or certification requirements from the State for individuals to serve as a Directors?

3) What would those requirements be (if different than answers to question 1)?

4) Who should pay for this certification or licensing (the individual or the membership)?

5) If licensing/certification should be required, should the now "qualified" individual be paid to serve as a Director? If yes, what amount would be fair wage or should it be market driven?

6) What issues may the Association/membership need to address if a licensing/certification requirement was enacted in your State?

7) Would you be willing to pay more in Assessments in order to implement such a requirement?

TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


07/24/2013 8:35 PM  
Since I stared the thread, I suppose I'll go first:

1) Serving as a Director requires different skills than serving as an Officer (President, VP, Secretary, Treasurer). Unfortunately, most officer positions are filled by those individuals serving on the Board. Therefore, separating the requirements would be difficult and perhaps unfair to those who only want to serve as Director and not as an Officer.

a)Knowledge and understanding of the governing documents (difficult to quantify)
b)Basic knowledge and understanding of applicable laws (difficult to quantify except through testing).
c)Member or adult of the immediate family (spouse, adult child living at home, etc) of a member.
d)Basic understanding of accounting
e) Basic working knowledge of computer applications for word processing and spreadsheets.


2) I'm torn on this one. As I said, it's difficult to quantify the above skills except through testing. However, once government certification becomes a requirement it runs the risk of corruption or simply seen as a revenue stream for the municipality and costs/fees may outweigh the benefit.

3) the only difference for government certification would be: remove individual governing documents and replace with understanding of boilerplate sections.
I would also separate certifications for COAs and HOAs (perhaps with riders for various common elements) as I can imagine that different skill sets would be required.

4/5)If the membership is paying for the certification, there should be no salary for serving. If the individual is paying for certification then the individual should be paid for this knowledge base. The salary should be set by the membership but remember, you get what you pay for.

6)Off the top of my head I see the following potential issues:
a) Different insurance requirements
b) decrease in pool of volunteers (as not everyone will want to go through the training).
c) Higher Assessments (I don't see anyway around that)
d) What if no qualified individuals are willing to serve?

7) As I said, higher assessments would likely be required. Governments will likely add registration fees to Associations (who benefit from having the certification) to pay for overseeing the program. Either the training itself or a salary for someone having the training will likely need to be paid.

Worst case, if no qualified individuals can serve, would receivership be required?

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


07/24/2013 8:58 PM  
Our criteria: If you raised your hand at the election meeting in January... Seriously, that is ALL you had to do beside be an owner. Some people didn't raise their hands but were "anointed" board position because we required 9 members. We later dropped that number to 5. It just 2 years to get that done...

So basically breathing, the ability to sign your name, and you showed up to a meeting... We had more restrictions on who could rent the clubhouse... According to the "Puppet master" con-man, he hand picked who would be the next president. Otherwise he'd spread rumors about you that weren't true.

Honestly, my board members ran the gamut of pretty intelligent people. One was a speech writer for a President, another a retired university professor. One retired IRS agent and another owner of an accounting firm. We come from a city of high intelligence so there was no lack in smarts before the new board took over. Who were mostly blondes (in a bottle) and shared a brain cell...

My qualifications were quite unique. Can not expect that of the other board members. Just hope that you all will have the ability to follow the rules and work together.

Former HOA President
MatthewW4
(Arizona)

Posts:500


07/24/2013 9:00 PM  
Tim,

My initial thoughts are that each state should develop some sort of certification process, even if it is nothing more elaborate than a one-semester course at a community college covering the basics of corporate and HOA law.

Certification should not be a prerequisite for serving on a board but one who is elected should become certified as soon afterward as practical. His/her association should cover the costs of certification but I see no reason to compensate board members beyond that.

Directors should know how a corporation is formed, the differences between business corporations and non-profits, the differences between officers and board members, state corporate election laws, state HOA election laws, what fiduciary duty means, reserve fund requirements, insurance requirements, open meeting laws, any powers or limits that an HOA has, when an HOA may fine, how to give notice of violations, how to hold hearings, how to handle appeals, how to amend community documents, and the basics of collecting and foreclosing on unpaid assessments.

If such a program were offered through the community colleges, the financial impact on the associations should be minimal. Therefore, I see no reason for a drastic increase in assessments to cover the costs.

The life of a certificate of completion would vary a lot from state to state. Some states have few HOA or corporate laws while others a buried in complexity. Some place like North Dakota could probably go for a decade without any significant changes in the law while others (Florida and California come to mind) seem to change their statutes on a weekly basis.

MatthewW4
(Arizona)

Posts:500


07/24/2013 9:16 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 07/24/2013 8:35 PM

Worst case, if no qualified individuals can serve, would receivership be required?



Whether that is a worst-case scenario depends on a lot of variables.

By their very nature, condos need an association of some sort to keep the building intact. I will withhold further comment on condos for now.

Associations that have a real mission would have a problem. By real mission, I mean maintaining the roads or operating a community swimming pool.

In those associations that exist mainly for the purpose of harrassing the members about the color of their shutters or the placement of their garbage cans, all of humanity would be better off if there was no one willing or able to serve on the board. What some might see as a worst-case, the rest of us would see as divine salvation.

JonD1


Posts:0


07/24/2013 11:04 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 07/24/2013 8:09 PM
In a different thread, a comment was suggested that attorneys (perhaps others) prey on the "unqualified volunteers" that serve on an Associations Board of Directors.
I'd be the first to admit that many, perhaps most, Associations have no requirements to serve as Director. Others may only have the requirement that they be members of the Association. Therefore, I can see how unqualified individuals may be elected or appointed to serve.

To this end, I ask the following questions:

1) What would you consider to be valid requirements to make an individual qualified to serve as a Director?

2) Should there be professional licensing or certification requirements from the State for individuals to serve as a Directors?

3) What would those requirements be (if different than answers to question 1)?

4) Who should pay for this certification or licensing (the individual or the membership)?

5) If licensing/certification should be required, should the now "qualified" individual be paid to serve as a Director? If yes, what amount would be fair wage or should it be market driven?

6) What issues may the Association/membership need to address if a licensing/certification requirement was enacted in your State?

7) Would you be willing to pay more in Assessments in order to implement such a requirement?






1) as recently suggested here it would be a good idea if potential Board members could recite from memory at least three of the Ten Commandments. Along with a clean driving record and a marriage lasting at least 30 years. That would seem to be a good start. Or at least in the views of some.
OR common sense, basic math and a willingness to act in the best interest of the property.

2) YES, the State are certainly the folks who can bring law and order to Board qualifications. I assume this from their long history of success in similar areas. Just like the recent Florida law cheered by some requiring Board members to certify they READ the documents. Now that is some groundbreaking legislation! A game changer no doubt.

3)The requirements would be that those who volunteer their time now spend MORE time while the vast majority of other owners do nothing. Sounds fair.

4)Well if the State is in charge you can be sure they would require upfront fees and recertification to provide a continuing source of funds. Why would anyone spend their money to serve as a volunteer on their HOA Board?

5) Paid Directors? Are you kidding paid for doing what? Managing the operation of your most valuable asset? They don't need no stinking pay!
They should do the job for free while I sit on my rump and run my mouth.

6)Finding volunteers still willing to serve.

7)Hell most people aren't willing to pay the amount now meeded to operate their own property! PLus throw in the fact they have no clue what that might even cost. Plus they think costs NEVER rise in the wordl of HOAs.

Tim while I understand the questions you pose in the real world I see to many obstacles to follow through on this.

Many HOAs including I think your own have a tough enought time getting people to serve NOW. By adding requirements I would have to think that job would be more difficult.

How do you teach common sense? How do you teach common sense when those you are teaching don't even realize they are lacking any of the same.

How do you teach basic math? How to you teach people who can't in many cases handle their own personal finances to now handle the HOAs financial issues. Hell one of the brainiacs here who has all the answers can't successfully multiply $10 X 90! Now if that's a brain teaser you might need to consider another position besides handling the property's finances!

How do you instill a sense of community and serving that same community when many people simply can't be bothered.

And for all of these how do you test those abilities? And certify to any useful degree these folks are qualified.

I have known many folks with degrees, certificates, and awards up the ying-yang. Many could not get out of their own way so cerifying Board members would change what in the real world.

And I wonder how do other groups or organizations function with volunteer Boards and non-professional management? Seems for some it is possible.

But pushing this type of educational requiremnts in the hopes it provides better leadership IMO is barking up the wrong tree.

MatthewW4
(Arizona)

Posts:500


07/24/2013 11:55 PM  
Well, Tim, the vote seems to be tied. One in favor of educated board members and one in favor of abyssmally ignorant cave-dwelling, knuckle-dragging, troglodytes.

BTW, 10 times 90 is 190. I know because I asked an abyssmally ignorant cave-dwelling, knuckle-dragging, troglodyte. As long as we have abyssmally ignorant cave-dwelling, knuckle-dragging, troglodytes we don't need no steenkin' edjucashun.




TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


07/25/2013 12:09 AM  
Posted By JonD1 on 07/24/2013 11:04 PM

Tim while I understand the questions you pose in the real world I see to many obstacles to follow through on this.




I will say that I personally believe that requiring certification will cause more problems that it may resolve.

However, it's certainly a valid topic.


There are some, perhaps many, that blame problems on the untrained, or unqualified individuals who serve on their Board. Many States are already require licensing or certifying management companies and property managers. It's not a far stretch to expect this licensing/certification may extend to those who serve on the Board. Some Counties have already published manuals to assist those who serve (example: Fairfax County VA and Collier County, FL). Various companies have already designed courses to educate Directors (example: CAI Board Member Orientation allow me - some may say indoctrination courses). Some Associations have even developed manuals and ethical contracts (example: ode of ethics and code of conduct and CC Directors Manual)

Therefore, now is an opportunity to discuss it.




TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


07/25/2013 12:17 AM  
Posted By MatthewW4 on 07/24/2013 11:55 PM
Well, Tim, the vote seems to be tied. One in favor of educated board members and one in favor of abyssmally ignorant cave-dwelling, knuckle-dragging, troglodytes.




Actually I wasn't taking a vote. A topic of discussion was raised in a different thread that I thought deserved it's own thread.

I thought it would be a good idea to discuss the merits and concerns of the topic. Hoping that the merits would stand or fall on their own while concerns are acknowledged and potential methods or procedures to minimize those concerns are provided.




MatthewW4
(Arizona)

Posts:500


07/25/2013 1:29 AM  
Posted By JonD1 on 07/24/2013 11:04 PM

Finding volunteers still willing to serve.



Jon,

You seem to think that serving as a director is a difficult job and that being required to learn what the job is would be some sort of additional burden.

Did it ever occur to you in the 25 years you have spent on your condo board that the job is difficult only because you do not understand how to do it? Is it possible that if someone showed you how to do it that it would not be such a problem? If someone showed others how to do the job, might they also conclude that it is not that hard?

KevinK7
(Florida)

Posts:1343


07/25/2013 2:53 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 07/24/2013 8:09 PM
In a different thread, a comment was suggested that attorneys (perhaps others) prey on the "unqualified volunteers" that serve on an Associations Board of Directors.
I'd be the first to admit that many, perhaps most, Associations have no requirements to serve as Director. Others may only have the requirement that they be members of the Association. Therefore, I can see how unqualified individuals may be elected or appointed to serve.

To this end, I ask the following questions:

1) What would you consider to be valid requirements to make an individual qualified to serve as a Director?

2) Should there be professional licensing or certification requirements from the State for individuals to serve as a Directors?

3) What would those requirements be (if different than answers to question 1)?

4) Who should pay for this certification or licensing (the individual or the membership)?

5) If licensing/certification should be required, should the now "qualified" individual be paid to serve as a Director? If yes, what amount would be fair wage or should it be market driven?

6) What issues may the Association/membership need to address if a licensing/certification requirement was enacted in your State?

7) Would you be willing to pay more in Assessments in order to implement such a requirement?




1) I think this is hard to quantify. It really depends on the individual and I think this is where #2 comes in.

2) I believe there should be a State-run agency that oversees HOA corporations and that there should be a licensing/certification requirement. This should involve the individual having a firm understanding of all applicable statutes involved in running a HOA. One big thing I have noticed with HOAs I have been involved in or people I know who have served is that they may have good intentions but they have zero to little understanding of the laws that govern them.

Another big thing is that by tying serving to licensing/certification the individual should be held personally liable for their actions. A constant theme on this board is that homeowners enter into a contract when purchasing their properties and that ignorance is no excuse and that they should be responsible for their actions. The same should go towards board members. They should be aware of the laws and if they violate them then they should be held personally liable. Sure HOA insurance will cover them but to a point.

An example - in my neighborhood the covenants expired. Several area lawyers have reviewed the situation and see that it is pretty cut and dry - the HOA never filed with the state to preserve to C&Rs by the appropriate date and the C&Rs ceased to exist. The HOA was informed of this but they continue to enforce the C&Rs, demand payment, and threaten legal action (they have even demanded tenants pay rent directly to them dispite never filing a lien). Because they were well aware of the situation regarding the C&Rs and they continued to act I believe the individual board members should be held personally liable.

I believe this would have an effect of preventing poor (and illegal) decisions from being made saving communities lots of money. Consider my other neighborhood - the HOA went bankrupt because they fought a lawsuit that was 100% preventable. If the board members were held accountable I doubt they would have pressed on with their actions, the HOA would have been saved, and the homeowners would have been protected.

This may also discourage some from serving, but then again, if they can't follow a simple law should they be?

3) I think just a comprehension of all laws applicable.
4) I think the individual should be responsible for the certification. When I get a drivers license I am responsible for paying for the permits, tests, etc. I don't expect the car dealership to pay for me learning how to drive.

5)I don't think they should be paid but if the law allows for payment then so be it - allow for compnsation, BUT I believe there should be a high vote threshold for anything involving compensation.

6) I really don't see any issues for the membership. I think something like this may actually increase awareness of the laws.

7) No. When divided among all property owners the cost is minimal. I think Florida charges homeowners in HOAs 4$ to pay for the governing agency.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 3:59 AM  
Kevin,

Wow, your last HOA went bankrupt after a homeowner sued it???

Would you mind telling us the name of the HOA? I am collecting information about this, and did not see this in FL.

Probably because it was not reported. I would love to read the decision, which would be published on the States site.

I suspect all kinds of crazy things are going on in HOAs across the country that are below the radar of the news

organizations.

And getting back to the topic...sure more qualified BOD members would be great.

But if there is no state oversight or protections to homeowners, the crazy stuff will just continue to happen.

Frankly I could care less how qualified my used car dealer is....I would much rather have the enormous body of law,

accompanied by ENFORCEMENT of the law on my side when he tries to rip me off.

As a consequence, used car dealers are relatively harmless now.

Unlike these rabid HOAs which can actually steal your home!


FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


07/25/2013 4:23 AM  
Tim,

Been thinking for awhile about this and see the merits of necessary qualifications versus the possible discouragement of some who might otherwise be willing to serve.

As a minimum I would like to see back ground checks be required so that no convicted felons, especially of white collar crimes, could gain access to an HOA's bank accounts. Also maybe an "information sheet" that the state provides to all candidates listing trustee responsibilities/risks and applicable controlling state laws-and require a signature of acknowledgement and acceptance that is retained on file by the state.

I agree that some of your other suggestions are good, but difficult to quantify.

Certainly this will earn me further scorn; however, I feel character is much more important that knowledge or experience. I understand this is probably impossible to measure, but having people with average intelligence with the right motivations to serve is more important than staffing one's HOA with a brain trust, IMHO. (Some of my comments like the 10 Commandments are done tongue in cheek, as I already acknowledged my face and sense of humor have made life difficult at times Personality is also key-divisive individuals need to be discouraged but how can this be measured and implemented?

That is the purpose of multiple people serving on a Board-they will bring varying perspectives and home ownership is not a privilege for an elite few but rather for the masses. The view that there needs to be more bite in how rogue Boards can be dealt with must be addressed as much as the qualifications of potential BODs. You can have the most qualified people still restricted by lousy governing documents.

Maybe states should consider certain limitations on how long developers can retain control, the duration of special classes of voting rights etc. By demonstrating that the power actually resides with the people IMO will do more to encourage active participation which is the key to proper checks and balances.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 4:45 AM  
Frank,

I think the law should consider when the developer leaves the project too.

I can see the developer exerting a lot of control over his investment, but after he leaves?

Is it really wise to allow a small group of homeowners to exert the same control?

Shouldn't there be, at that time, a significant limitation on the power of the HOA, with supermajority requirements

for Rules, CCR changes and absolutely no punitive powers...(an impartial panel of judges is the only place one should find

this power, especially if it impacts our property)!

In retrospect here, if a credit check was done on all BOD members, we would have been spared quite a few shysters!
KevinK7
(Florida)

Posts:1343


07/25/2013 5:24 AM  
Mike,

I cannot give you the name on this neighborhood on this board because of posting rules but I can give you the information if you provide your email.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


07/25/2013 5:26 AM  
I do volunteer work for Habitat for Humanity. Part of my volunteering is organizing the volunteers. You can imagine the wide range of skills you get on building a house. This isn't too far off from the whole HOA volunteer concept. I may have a volunteer who is qualified to use a broom to an electrician. I've learned just play to people's strengths and put those strengths to use.

One can only achieve to their highest level, after that they snap... It's like the tinsel strength of tinsel. You can stretch only so much and you can only be the strongest at one point. I think people sometimes put board members on a pedastool with a noose of tinsel around their necks. They then want to knock that pedastool out from under them. It's basically then how long your willing to hang there... LOL!

Former HOA President
JeanneK3
(Maryland)

Posts:562


07/25/2013 5:27 AM  
Tim:
Although I strongly believe Board Directors should get some training in how to manage an HOA or Condo, I feel licensing them will have candidates run for the hills.

I favor having the association pay for the half-day, full day or video training CAI offers for new board members. Although I have problems with the dogmatic attitude of many CAI attorneys, CAI's Board training program is quite good. If there is a need, I believe community colleges would develop training programs as well.

If people are unwilling to give one day of their time to attend a free course, they shouldn't be on the board.

Jeanne
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11641


07/25/2013 5:29 AM  
When there are more running for the BOD then there are positions, one can be more selective based on the candidates education, experience, etc. Until that time, it is pretty much one takes what one can get.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 5:38 AM  
Kevin,

I really appreciate the offer to help.

My yahoo email is [email protected]

This is my junk email, but I will check it and give you my 'real' email address at that point.

Thanks again!
SharonH9


Posts:0


07/25/2013 6:10 AM  
I don't think you can legislate making an unqualified person qualified. You can educate but that still does not make one qualified. It's more about honesty, integrity and a willingness to listen and have an open and objective mind. Someone who will speak up and not let the loud mouths take control.

You can educate people but that does not mean that educated person will be a good board member or officer. In my HOA we had a board member with a law degree (he's moved thank goodness.) I think because of his credentials the other board members trusted that he knew what he was talking about and acted based on this one person's credentials. In the end, those decisions that they made actually financially harmed the HOA.

And as I have addressed in a different thread some people let their EGOS get in the way of making good decisions. A board member may know the ins and outs of the governing documents and the applicable laws but just don't have the personality to be good board members.

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 6:44 AM  
The REAL solution?

Design these places on the premise that the BOD WILL be unqualfied. Checks and balances ect.

Oversight, transparency and the REAL power vested with the homeowners.

This simple solution is always discarded by the egos of the worst possible candidates for the position.

Resulting in the litinay of abuses and rip offs that we read about on a daily basis.

Human nature sure is strange.

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 6:51 AM  
Imagine running for the board on that platform!

"I am a boob and your worst nightmare"....lets design this governing system so I can do as little harm as possible!





JonD1


Posts:0


07/25/2013 7:01 AM  
Posted By MatthewW4 on 07/24/2013 11:55 PM
Well, Tim, the vote seems to be tied. One in favor of educated board members and one in favor of abyssmally ignorant cave-dwelling, knuckle-dragging, troglodytes.

BTW, 10 times 90 is 190. I know because I asked an abyssmally ignorant cave-dwelling, knuckle-dragging, troglodyte. As long as we have abyssmally ignorant cave-dwelling, knuckle-dragging, troglodytes we don't need no steenkin' edjucashun.









Matthew:

Your position seems to indicate two possible points of question for me.


One, it would seem you would suggest anyone who did not successfully complete such a program MUST then be ignorant. At the least that seems to be a bit far fetched. Your point would be that all HOA Board members are currently ignorant? Ignorant to what?

Two, you seem to think a state sponsored course of some kind who increase IQs and abilities making them worthwhile. These same states developed and passed such solutions as Davis/Stirling which IMO does little to serve or simplify HOA ownership at all. This might be like Florida the same state that now require Board members to certify THEY READ THE DOCUMENTS, seeming to suggest that alone increases capabilities.

And while I agree there is value in education IMO some things you simply cannot teach. Especially in a few hour course.

Now the answer you provided to the math portion of our state exam was CLOSE in fact 100 points closer than one of or regular posters here who now sees all HOA Board members as thieves, liars, power hungry, unqualified wastes that certainly need to be removed and defanged. But he believes even with his own proven lack of basic math skills he still now knows best. IMO there would be no benefit in attempting to educate folks like that.

Just how many years might it take to have an individual like that rise to the level of multiplying 10 X 90 ? And who might pay for those years of study???
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11641


07/25/2013 7:03 AM  
Two of the worst BOD Members I ever served with were a lawyer and a teacher. The primary grade teacher wanted to treat the owners as children. Signs, rules, punish all for the transgression of a few, line up here, sit here, etc. The lawyer was afraid to do anything without legal opinions. He cost us a small fortune in legal fees.

If I could chose BOD members: Give me a good numbers (bean counter) person. Someone who owned/ran a small business. A good sales/marketing person. A good trades person like contractor, builder, etc. A business person/bureaucrat with bidding/contracts experience. People with BOD experience in one form or another.




JohnB26


Posts:0


07/25/2013 7:15 AM  
there can be no REAL solution until the criminal and civil codes of law are combined

eg. when breach of fiduciary duty becomes an actual CRIME with actual PUNISHMENT

then, and only then, will we actually have accountability instead of:

'i am only a volunteer, i'm doing the best i can, what do you expect?'

what I expect is: you volunteered to direct a corporation ~ do so ACCORDING TO THE ARTCLES AND BYLAWS or step down ~ if ignorant, learn ~ at the very least read the governing documents


AS A POSSIBLE SOLUTION:

how about an Oath (or Affirmation) of Office ?

I solemly swear/affirm to carry out my duties according to the xyz hoa, inc. bylaws and governed by the CCRs, which i have read and understand, with my undivided loyalty to the interests of the association.

as the song says: ................dream, dream, dream..........
JonD1


Posts:0


07/25/2013 7:35 AM  
Posted By MatthewW4 on 07/25/2013 1:29 AM
Posted By JonD1 on 07/24/2013 11:04 PM

Finding volunteers still willing to serve.



Jon,

You seem to think that serving as a director is a difficult job and that being required to learn what the job is would be some sort of additional burden.

Did it ever occur to you in the 25 years you have spent on your condo board that the job is difficult only because you do not understand how to do it? Is it possible that if someone showed you how to do it that it would not be such a problem? If someone showed others how to do the job, might they also conclude that it is not that hard?





Well Matthew here's what I think. In order to do the job right it requires effort and attention to detail. To do the job up to my standards it requires time, knowledge and an all around ability to manage the unique aspects of that one particular property.

Now many people lack the desire to serve, can't do more in their service then they can do for themselves in their personal lives, or fail to understand what in fact their responsibility is.

So in fact you do have what I refer to as once a month Board members. I am NOT such a person.
Folks who turn their property over to the MC and convince themselves their role is to occupy a seat each month at the meeting.

Matthew as I have mentioned before during my time serving as President our assets have increased 15 fold. This during the worst economy of our time. Due to cost controls and better use of our funds which were never seen prior to the old Board being removed. A Board that was in place for more than 20 years. Our property values have gone down like everyone else but we continue to see sales within our community while other properties don't see that sort of movement.

Recently, one young couple who was renting their property here decided to then buy here because they felt it would be a good place for them to own after visiting other communities in our area. Which suggests to me more than likely we are doing something half right.

Over the years I have been asked to join an association that included MCs and Board members from different properties to share information and points of view. I have been asked to speak at seminars regarding issues facing Boards. I have been asked to give my time in speaking with Boards of other properties who might need some suggestions as to how they might deal with some issues.

So to be honest I doubt that the state could provide some person who now might offer me information that serves to make my role less difficult. Just what would they know about my particular property?

In order to do so they could educate the owners so that they might understand this is their biggest personal investment. Explain that Board members are in fact owners too. Perhaps try to get the fact that everyone either sinks or swims as a group rather than one group prospers while the other group goes downhill.

Perhaps a seminar or course for those who are considering purchasing a HOA property might be more beneficial? My question how many would attend if it was offered?










EllieD
(Vermont)

Posts:446


07/25/2013 7:44 AM  
TimB4, and those responding,

To make the replies more meaningful, IMO, some subcategories would be helpful.

For example, are you assuming a Condominium Association Board, or a HOA (stand alone individual houses) Board?

And then, in respect to Director Qualifications, when the Association is either completely self-managed (mostly self managed), or when there is a management company or manager employed.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 8:13 AM  
If you continue to vest too much power in the BOD..the problems will never cease.

Strip them of any legislative or punitive power...

Problems go away...

Except which is the bigger problem?

Homeowners who face unpredictable consequences to their finances and even their property ownership due to the actions of

unqualified ametuer volunteers that have no common sense contraints imposed on them?

Or BOD egos, which would be devestated by their new impotence to impose their whims?

Certainly the association attorney would be devestated! Their income would virtually dry up and go away!

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 8:18 AM  
So in the absence of any reasonable constraints...we must now go to the thread...

"Suing my HOA".

Because as more and more courts are figuring out what a mess these places are, that is where the contraints are found.

Great solution!

The association attorney is now very happy!
JohnB26


Posts:0


07/25/2013 11:05 AM  
shat shat shat (never could spell)

Mike, you actually make sense on this one.

ps. we really need to 'go british' with solicitors and actual 'officers of the court'

our attorneys are really only the equiv. of solicitors (as in no soliciting)

why do we permit the 'salesmen' to actually argue their case before a judge?


ooooops ... there i go again ... truth and logic

perhaps if one could NOT waive one's constitutional rights; however, one is guaranteed the right to sign them away by contract (even verbal) ~ one may join the military (unless a time of war this is VOLUNTAREY servitude) ~ one may waive the right to counsel (Miranda) ~ one may even waive the right to paint one's home the color of choice (HOA)

it would behoove society that the 'directors' be held accountable to perform their voluntarilly assumed fiduciary duties

ENRON should apply to ALL DIRECTORS
else
equal protection under the law becomes meaningless
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 11:18 AM  
Oh I know.

Much has been made of the fact that I spend $40K on an attorney 10 years ago. And what a joke that was.

I do all my own work on my house, I got a freon license and installed my own central AC, built all my own decks, outdoor

shower....do my own car work ect. ect. ect.

So I thought....how hard would it be to do this law thing?

Turns out an idiot can do it...(that was tongue in cheek)

But it is fairly simple once you understand the Rules of Civil Procedure (all states just copy the Fed rules)

How a lawsuit is structured...Complaint, Answer, Motions, Trial.

So I gave it a whirl!

No my case is pretty simple...my HOA is pretending that a signed contract I have with them doesn't exist.

I also threw in a Constitutional count that fines were unlawful/unconstitutional too.

So I am patiently waiting for this thing to be resolved.

It has been interesting to say the least.

JeanneK3
(Maryland)

Posts:562


07/25/2013 11:25 AM  
JohnB:

Wow. You are on to something. Actually penalties for Director misdeeds might get Board Directors to seek out education really quickly. I like it.

Jeanne
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


07/25/2013 12:11 PM  
Posted By EllieD on 07/25/2013 7:44 AM
TimB4, and those responding,

To make the replies more meaningful, IMO, some subcategories would be helpful.

For example, are you assuming a Condominium Association Board, or a HOA (stand alone individual houses) Board?

And then, in respect to Director Qualifications, when the Association is either completely self-managed (mostly self managed), or when there is a management company or manager employed.




Ellie,

I'm specifically talking about Board members for any Association. Therefore, being self managed or not would not be a factor.

Tim
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


07/25/2013 12:35 PM  
Mike,

I find it interesting that when you do bring up an issue that is worthy of debate, as you did by saying Board members were unqualified, and you are asked specifically what qualifications you would require and how should the qualification be measured (certified/license) you chose to ignore the question and simply try to change the topic.

The topic isn't about CC&Rs, it isn't about enforcement, it's a very simple question that may have complicated answers. The only comments on topic you mentioned in any of your 8 posts on this thread were:

Posted By MikeR15 on 07/25/2013 3:59 AM

And getting back to the topic...sure more qualified BOD members would be great.




Posted By MikeR15 on 07/25/2013 4:45 AM

In retrospect here, if a credit check was done on all BOD members, we would have been spared quite a few shysters!





So to sum up what you offered, having more qualified individuals sit on the Board is the goal but apparently the only qualification you see necessary is a credit check.

Lets go with that. What credit score would you set as your qualification?
How often should the credit be checked (annually, quarterly, once each election, etc.)?
Who gets to see the credit report?
If the entire membership gets to see the report will this encourage or discourage members from serving?
Since the law requires a Board of Directors, what happens if no-one wants to make their credit report public (after all, your Association has an airstrip to maintain)?

Again, I honestly believe that your statement about unqualified Directors was an excellent point. However, if you are unwilling to discuss the issue on it's merits what are people to think about your other statements?

Do you really want qualified individuals serving on your Board or were you just paraphrasing something that sounded good when you read it in an article or blog?




SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4280


07/25/2013 12:43 PM  
Here’s one person’s opinion:

1) What would you consider to be valid requirements to make an individual qualified to serve as a Director?
I’d start with someone who is at least 18, listed as owner or co-owner on the deed, is current with all fees (regular, special assessments, etc.) and doesn’t have any litigation pending against the association (plaintiff or defendant).

2) Should there be professional licensing or certification requirements from the State for individuals to serve as a Director?

NO –homeowners need to do their homework and decide what type of people they want on the board. I have no problems with a nominating committee, although I prefer people speaking up at an open meeting and telling everyone why they’d like to serve and what skills and experiences they bring. People could then ask questions (such as if the volunteer is willing to attend educational seminars from time to time on how to run an Association) and vote accordingly.

3) What would those requirements be (if different than answers to question 1)?

See my response to question #2

4) Who should pay for this certification or licensing (the individual or the membership)?

Although I said no to question #2, I think the individual should pay up front, but be reimbursed by the Association AFTER he/she served at least one full term on the board. This way, you’d know if the person was serious about serving on the board and the Association wouldn’t have to pay several fees for people who attended one or two meetings and then bailed.

5) If licensing/certification should be required, should the now "qualified" individual be paid to serve as a Director? If yes, what amount would be fair wage or should it be market driven?

I’m not sure – an argument could be made either way. On one hand, certification doesn’t guarantee a director will make good decisions (there’s such a thing as an educated fool) and licensed professionals get caught doing stupid and/or illegal things all the time.

On the other hand, one’s time is valuable so if a director is going to spend time going to meetings, reviewing assorted contracts, CCRs, Bylaws, exterior request, etc., perhaps the homeowners should be willing to pay. After all, these people are stepping up to help manage THEIR property – if you don’t want to do it yourself, you’ll have to pay someone to do it and one way or another, you WILL get what you pay for.

If board members are to be paid, I'd base it on fair wage, which should be based on the size of the community and the amount/type of the common areas that has to be managed. Thus, a 1000 home community may pay more than a 100 or 50 home community.

6) What issues may the Association/membership need to address if a licensing/certification requirement was enacted in your State?

Depends on what the law would say, but we would have to consider who’s even willing to go through the process. If you already have a problem with homeowner apathy, would a licensing requirement would make things worse if no one’s willing to volunteer? What happens if the current board goes through certification and some of them fail – do you continue to let them serve? Should you have potential volunteers take the training first and then take a vote on the ones who completed and passed it? What do you do about continuing education and how much should be required?

7) Would you be willing to pay more in Assessments in order to implement such a requirement?

Depends on the amount – it’s been suggested in some circles that HOA boards establish a line item in their budgets for some sort of board member education, such as a CAI membership, which our HOA does (I’m the representative for my HOA and pass along information to the other members). Before laws are mandated, I think boards should encourage continuing education in the most cost effective manner they can afford.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4280


07/25/2013 1:04 PM  
You know, as long as we’re talking about requirements for HOA board members, let’s flip the script and consider if there should requirements for people who buy homes in a HOA:

1. You must review an information sheet on the community you’re interested in (is the HOA mandatory or voluntary, general overview of your rights and responsibilities as a member, areas that are your responsibility vs. the Association’s, how to request permission to make exterior changes, if appropriate). You must then pass a quiz on the contents of the information sheet

2. You must provide the Association with your state and federal income tax returns for the last seven years, a credit check from all three credit reporting agencies, a criminal background check (including a check of the state sex offender registry) and at least five references from your current neighbors. Extra consideration will be given to those who take and pass the Wonderlich test (the same ones they give would-be NFL draftees at the annual combine)

3. You must provide a photograph of your home – inside and out, so the HOA will know if you’re the type who uses his/her backyard as a mini landfill, car lot, a ranch for roaches or rats – or a weed plantation (dandelions and the other kind!)

4. If you have children, we would like written statements from their teachers, minister (or rabbi, iman, etc.) as to their character. (We don't want any Children of the Corn!)

5. If you are buying the home so you can rent it out, you must provide a list of homes you currently rent out, if any (with photos), and the names of your current tenants, along with THEIR credit and criminal background checks (this way the Association will have some idea as to whether you’re a responsible landlord or just a slumlord). If you live out of state, you will be automatically disqualified unless you have a local contact (providing his/her name, address and phone number) who will inspect the home at least once a month and respond to any complaints within 24 hours

6. After you buy the home, you must agree to serve at least one full term on the Board of Directors so you can see what the current bunch have to deal with.
CarolR11


Posts:0


07/25/2013 1:09 PM  
So many thoughtful & interesting replies. Thanks for getting this topic started Tim!

Quick answer that others already have written. A 1/2 day to several hour one-day seminar would be really, really helpful. Should be done ASAP after the annual election.

If there were vert. requirements, may potential volunteers would head for the hills, IMO!

I'd love to jump in with more but am leaving tomorrow for 6 weeks+ in Europe so don't have time. Just thought I'd let you know so that no one wonders whatever happened to CarolR from CA. I wonder when someone "disappears"! Should be back with you by apps. 9/12.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11641


07/25/2013 2:58 PM  
Shelia

In some respects is does not matter what one does.

As an example. In our HOA when you have a home built (8 of 113 lots left) you sign a "Lot Reserve Form" and place a $500.00 down payment. At the time you sign the Lot Reserve Form you also sign for and are given a copy of the Covenants, Bylaws, and Rules and Restrictions. You are also given a copy of the last 4 years budget and a breakdown to the penny of where your dues go. You sign for it all. You now have 30 days to work out the details with the developer. Model, options, final sales price, etc. During this 30 days either party can cancel the order for any reason and the $500.00 is refunded. I know some have asked for an extension on the 30 days and it was always granted. At the end of this period, you place an order for a home which takes about 120 days to build unless a spec built one.

People signed for and were given a copy of the Covenants, Bylaws, Rules and Regulations, budgets, expenses breakdown, etc. They had documentation on every single thing. They had plenty of time to back out. No surprises, no last minute tricks, etc.

Point of the story? We still have issues with folks that say "well I did not know".

You can only go so far in protecting people from themselves.


JonD1


Posts:0


07/25/2013 3:36 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 07/25/2013 12:35 PM
Mike,

I find it interesting that when you do bring up an issue that is worthy of debate, as you did by saying Board members were unqualified, and you are asked specifically what qualifications you would require and how should the qualification be measured (certified/license) you chose to ignore the question and simply try to change the topic.

The topic isn't about CC&Rs, it isn't about enforcement, it's a very simple question that may have complicated answers. The only comments on topic you mentioned in any of your 8 posts on this thread were:

Posted By MikeR15 on 07/25/2013 3:59 AM

And getting back to the topic...sure more qualified BOD members would be great.




Posted By MikeR15 on 07/25/2013 4:45 AM

In retrospect here, if a credit check was done on all BOD members, we would have been spared quite a few shysters!





So to sum up what you offered, having more qualified individuals sit on the Board is the goal but apparently the only qualification you see necessary is a credit check.

Lets go with that. What credit score would you set as your qualification?
How often should the credit be checked (annually, quarterly, once each election, etc.)?
Who gets to see the credit report?
If the entire membership gets to see the report will this encourage or discourage members from serving?
Since the law requires a Board of Directors, what happens if no-one wants to make their credit report public (after all, your Association has an airstrip to maintain)?

Again, I honestly believe that your statement about unqualified Directors was an excellent point. However, if you are unwilling to discuss the issue on it's merits what are people to think about your other statements?

Do you really want qualified individuals serving on your Board or were you just paraphrasing something that sounded good when you read it in an article or blog?









Tim:

Do you really think Mike might offer any response to the last question you posed???? That would require Mike to actually form his own opinions or thoughts rather than parroting all the information and lciams he spews on a daily basis.

Mike reads and tehn passes it off as his own. And if and when you bother to ask a follow up question or request an explanation SILENCE........

What shocks me most is that we have folks who seem to fall for Mike's limited version of the truth. They seem to have no abilty to read between the lines or find holes in Mike's claims. There are many!

So NO Mike was never interested in looking into how Board members might be provided more education his rant is and was unqualiied, non-professionals and after that he is empty with any ideas or possible solutions.

So don't bother waiting to long Mike is not on his way back with an answer. No doubt he is off advising others on how they can be just like HIM!

Thanks for the post Tim with the exception of Mike's comments some folks seem o actually have given this some thought................

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 3:47 PM  
Tim,

The answer to the question about unqualified directors is this.

There is no HUMAN BEING qualified to wield the kind of power HOA directors have.

This is a basic democratic principle.

There MUST be a seperation of powers.

Want to play Executive?...fine! But that means you can't play rule maker or judge.

But HOA BODs want to play all three, which renders the whole thing a joke.

Which is why so many people have abject disgust for it.

JonD1


Posts:0


07/25/2013 3:57 PM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/25/2013 3:47 PM
Tim,

The answer to the question about unqualified directors is this.

There is no HUMAN BEING qualified to wield the kind of power HOA directors have.

This is a basic democratic principle.

There MUST be a seperation of powers.

Want to play Executive?...fine! But that means you can't play rule maker or judge.

But HOA BODs want to play all three, which renders the whole thing a joke.

Which is why so many people have abject disgust for it.






Well there is Mike's canned position.

Straight out of the anti-HOA wing nut digest.

And once again Mike TRIES to suggest his view is supported by "many people". Based on anything more than some articles Mike has read??? No nothing more.

Impossible to get anywhere with folks as limited as Mike.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 4:26 PM  
I am sure it has not escaped you that very few people have any respect for HOAs.

They are nothing but little tin pot tyrannys.

The solution is simple, but simply not acceptable to the dolts who just love having all that power.

Human nature at work.

So homeowners have to go to extrodinary lengths to strip the HOA of its power.

This is happening all across the country, with more and more laws enacted which does exactly that.

The CAI, ambulence chaising folks that they are, are clawing for every penny they can get out of our wallets

and equity in our homes before they have to go find real jobs somewhere.

And it seems many of the folks here just want to fiddle while Rome burns and talk about anything but the real problem.
AllisonD
(Florida)

Posts:447


07/25/2013 4:42 PM  
What an interesting topic! If we all had the dream team board, what would we talk about on this message board? Here is my humble opinion:

1) What would you consider to be valid requirements to make an individual qualified to serve as a Director?
I think a homeowner should live in the development for at least 1 year besides all the other written requirements.

2) Should there be professional licensing or certification requirements from the State for individuals to serve as a Directors?
NO. Florida has just implemented a rule for HOA's that we must now register the HOA with the Department of Business and Professional Regulation and on file, must have a document signed by all board members within 90 days of being elected, that states the board member has read all the documents and will work to uphold the documents and policies to the best of his or her ability and will faithfully discharge his or her fiduciary responsibility to the association's members. I think this step is just right.

3) What would those requirements be (if different than answers to question 1)? na
4) Who should pay for this certification or licensing (the individual or the membership)? na

5) If licensing/certification should be required, should the now "qualified" individual be paid to serve as a Director? If yes, what amount would be fair wage or should it be market driven?
No payment, service on the board should remain voluntary.

6) What issues may the Association/membership need to address if a licensing/certification requirement was enacted in your State? na
7) Would you be willing to pay more in Assessments in order to implement such a requirement? na

I can understand why condo associations are regulated: Their purview of responsibility includes the roofs, walls, pipes etc, of everyone's home. With individual homes, the items the board oversees have little to do with individual homes other than esthetic decisions regarding fences and paint, for example. The remainder, although very important, deal with roads, irrigation, club house, pool. And the gray area of course are the application of other rules regarding parking, visitors, signs etc. But no real special knowledge except for common sense, is required to manage and maintain the pool, for example. The requirement of board approval assures us that no one rogue board member will reek havoc but we know one rogue board member can influence all the others. I do not think any kind of certification or licensing will rid us of these evil board members.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/25/2013 5:15 PM  
Pay HOA board members????

Can we sue them for punitive damages then?

Does this broaden their liability?

How will the courts treat them if they become paid executives of this corporation?
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


07/25/2013 7:41 PM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 07/25/2013 3:47 PM
Tim,

The answer to the question about unqualified directors is this.
There is no HUMAN BEING qualified to wield the kind of power HOA directors have.

There MUST be a seperation of powers.




Mike,

As was mentioned on other threads, it's important to listen and perhaps heed the voice that doesn't agree and raises concerns. I agree with them, as seeing things from a different perspective can provide a different insight. Those who mentioned this importance in other threads specifically said that you were one of those voices we should listen to. This is what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to belittle you. I'm just trying to see this issue you raised from your perspective. In order to do this, I need you to participate. Of course the choice to participate or not is yours to make.

Let me try to rephrase the issue:

Lets say that the CC&Rs are written to include everything you desire. There is true separation of power based on how you personally believe it should be separated. The membership makes 99% of the decisions. Enforcement issues are handled only by the membership or an outside entity (courts, arbitrators, what ever outside authority you believe should be used). The Directors are basically collecting assessments, paying bills and overseeing contractors that the membership approved. There is full transparency. Board meetings are even televised so all members may observe if they are unable to attend. A full transcript as well as the minutes are of all meetings are available online. Everything is how you believe it should be.

Would you then change you position and not require qualifications for your Directors or would you still require qualifications (if yes, then what qualifications and how would those be obtained)?


Now lets say that things are as they are. Mass. still has no laws requiring transparency or open meetings. The Board still has enforcement authority and authority to interpret the documents. However, you have the opportunity to specify what, if any, qualifications an individual should have in order to sit on your board. If they don't meet those qualifications they can not, under penalty of law, serve as a Director and have access to all of that power and/or authority granted by the poorly written CC&Rs and/or lack of State HOA laws (again this is how it is now).

You have already indicated that you would require a credit check (which I've previously asked some questions about for clarification so I can better understand that requirement). What, if any, other qualifications would you have?


TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


07/26/2013 6:29 AM  
I don't want to discourage others from responding by posting this but I wanted to thank everyone who has provided responses to the questions.
I can tell that those who answered put some thought into their posts.

If you haven't had a chance to post yet, please do.

I'm sure that this topic will lead to other good discussions in future threads.

Tim
RayM6
(Virginia)

Posts:40


07/26/2013 7:07 AM  
1. Adult homeowner, no litigation pending related to the assoc, no felony convictions
2. No, but I would be in favor of some training/education on BOD roles, responsibilities and HOA ethics.
3. n/a
4. The membership should pay for it.
5. Depends on the size of the HOA. Mine is 230 homes, we are a volunteer board. For us, no. Our bylaws prohibit it currently.
6. Who pays for the certification, what impact it would have on volunteers/those willing to serve, what add'l liability or responsibility a certification means to the individual or association, and whether D&O coverage is sufficient
7. No
RayM6
(Virginia)

Posts:40


07/26/2013 7:07 AM  
1. Adult homeowner, no litigation pending related to the assoc, no felony convictions
2. No, but I would be in favor of some training/education on BOD roles, responsibilities and HOA ethics.
3. n/a
4. The membership should pay for it.
5. Depends on the size of the HOA. Mine is 230 homes, we are a volunteer board. For us, no. Our bylaws prohibit it currently.
6. Who pays for the certification, what impact it would have on volunteers/those willing to serve, what add'l liability or responsibility a certification means to the individual or association, and whether D&O coverage is sufficient
7. No
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


07/26/2013 7:38 AM  
Posted By RayM6 on 07/26/2013 7:07 AM [emphasis added]

1. Adult homeowner, no litigation pending related to the assoc, no felony convictions




Others than Ray have posted that there should be no felony convictions to serve. Therefore, I think some clarification is needed. I'm just using Ray's posting as an illustration. Please, anyone who desires should comment.

Since there are verying types of felonies would any felony (including disorderly conduct, curfew and loitering violations) eliminate someone from serving or would only certain felonies keep a person from being qualified? If not all, than which ones?



I ask this question, as I asked a similar question to those who thought a credit check should be done, to illustrate that it's easy to for something to be mentioned that may mean different things to different people.
FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


07/26/2013 8:20 AM  
Tim,

Regarding felony convictions, I would feel comfortable if they were limited to white collar/financial crimes much as what we see with the SEC trying to impose lifetime bans in the securities industries for individuals who have demonstrated a propensity to take advantage of their positions/limited knowledge.
RayM6
(Virginia)

Posts:40


07/26/2013 8:23 AM  
re; felony convictions - I would paint that with a broad brush and say "any". However, depending on the state and whether BOD members are paid, this raises a question of discrimination. Some states do not allow "workplace" discrimination on the basis of a felony conviction. Not sure it applies here, but it's possible. Definitely a lot to consider, and a can of worms.

Interesting thread.
SharonH9


Posts:0


07/26/2013 10:17 AM  
I am for requiring new and current board members spend 8 hours of consecutive viewing of HOA talk and respond to at least 5 posts. Three of their posts must be replies to MelissaP1, JonD1, and MikeR15. A committee of homeowners will then critique and evaluate the board members on their responses. LOL. Just a little HOA humor to lighten the mood.

In all seriousness though I do like RayM6 response to #2 regarding responsibilities and ethics. You can not make a person ethical or responsible but I believe this would emphasize the importance and seriousness of their service.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4280


07/26/2013 12:08 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 07/26/2013 7:38 AM
Posted By RayM6 on 07/26/2013 7:07 AM [emphasis added]

1. Adult homeowner, no litigation pending related to the assoc, no felony convictions




Others than Ray have posted that there should be no felony convictions to serve. Therefore, I think some clarification is needed. I'm just using Ray's posting as an illustration. Please, anyone who desires should comment.

Since there are verying types of felonies would any felony (including disorderly conduct, curfew and loitering violations) eliminate someone from serving or would only certain felonies keep a person from being qualified? If not all, than which ones?



I ask this question, as I asked a similar question to those who thought a credit check should be done, to illustrate that it's easy to for something to be mentioned that may mean different things to different people.





I would apply the no felonies rule to those concerning fraud, theft and violence against another person, especially if the act resulted serious injury or death to the victim.

For credit checks, my concern is if one has any repossessions, write-offs, liens, bankruptcy, etc. on the record. these things generally tend to indicate one hasn't been responsible AT ALL with his/her money, so that makes me extremely skeptical of his/her ability to manage the common areas that could be worth several million dollars.

On the other hand, the fair credit reporting act gives consumers the right to prepare and include a statement explaining these things (e.g. a spouse's major medical illness bankrupted the family) - if someone simply fell on hard times AND was making an effort to make things right, I might think a little differently about putting him/her on the board (although I'd probably not vote in his/her favor, but encourage participate in other ways until he/she gets more financially stable)
MoM1
(Massachusetts)

Posts:56


07/26/2013 4:30 PM  
The quickest way to have a qualified board is to have qualified owners/voters. Let's face it, it is the apathy, disinterest, stupidity, fear, whatever, of the owners who don't show up to vote, pay attention to what is going on in their community, and let who knows who make critical decisions about what is for most, their single most valuable asset. It's really the owners who let boards and MCs become tin pot despots. In every set of by-laws or in state statutes there is a way to hold recall elections.
AllisonD
(Florida)

Posts:447


07/26/2013 5:59 PM  
There are 2 kinds of crimes: One is a felony with punishment possible more than 1 year (a felon can do less than a year in the local jail, if he has time served and the judge orders it). The second type of crime is a Misdemeanor, and that punishment cannot be more than 1 year. Misdemeanors generally include first time DUI, driving while license suspended, small amounts of pot. A Felony may be the 3rd DUI within 10 years, dealing drugs, manufacturing methamphetamine, murder, etc. I just wanted to make sure everyone knows the difference.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


07/26/2013 6:27 PM  
FL does it this way: 720.306 Meetings of members; voting and election procedures; amendments.—

(9)(b) A person who is delinquent in the payment of any fee, fine, or other monetary obligation to the association for more than 90 days is not eligible for board membership. A person who has been convicted of any felony in this state or in a United States District or Territorial Court, or has been convicted of any offense in another jurisdiction which would be considered a felony if committed in this state, is not eligible for board membership unless such felon’s civil rights have been restored for at least 5 years as of the date on which such person seeks election to the board. The validity of any action by the board is not affected if it is later determined that a member of the board is ineligible for board membership.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/26/2013 6:58 PM  
Mom1

Homeeowners don't show up to meetings because the meetings are not subject to any open meeting laws.

Therefore they are a joke.

Homeowners don't vote, because there are no election laws or any enforcement of those that do exist.

There is no chain of custody of the ballots.

Elections are a farce, ballots are by definition, garbage.

Homeowners are smart enough to just stay away from the whole debacle....

The industry has coined a propaganda word for this: Apathy

And it seems some folks have swallowed that nonsense hook, line and sinker
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


07/26/2013 7:16 PM  
There are none so blind as those that refuse to see. Many states require meetings to be open to the members, some have election laws, but keep painting everything with the same brush.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


07/27/2013 7:08 PM  
Making meetings open to the public has nothing to do with Open Meeting Law.

And as opposed to the real world...

Ignorance IS an excuse in HOA land.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


07/27/2013 11:32 PM  
Mike,

You appear to want to participate as indicated by the responses you give others. However, you seem to have chosen to not really participate as you don't seem to want to reply to the direct question and the topic of this thread: What do you believe is required to make unqualified volunteers qualified?

As I said, earlier when I asked you, provide an answer with all your other stipulations of what is need in an HOA as being in place. Then, if you are willing, provide an answer with the reality of today.

Of course, the choice is yours to participate or not. I honestly thought, since you had been the one to specify that the volunteers serving on a Board are unqualified, you would have some notion of what would be needed to make them qualified.

Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Page 1 of 212 > >>
Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Making unqualified volunteers qualified



Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.







General Legal Notice:  The content of forum messages are from the posting member and have not been reviewed nor endorsed by HOATalk.com.  Messages posted by HOATalk or other members are for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice and do not constitute an attorney-client relationship.  Readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel.  HOATalk is not a licensed attorney, CPA, tax advisor, financial advisor or any other licensed professional.  HOATalk accepts ads from sponsors but does not verify sponsor qualifications nor endorse/guarantee any sponsor's product or service.
Legal Notice For Messages Posted by Sponsoring Attorneys: This message has been prepared by the sponsoring attorney for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Readers of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send any sponsoring attorney confidential information unless you speak with the sponsoring attorney or an attorney from the sponsoring attorney’s firm and get authorization to send that information to them. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in the firm of the sponsoring attorney. Sponsoring attorneys that post messages here are licensed to practice law in a specific state or states as indicated in their message signature or sponsor’s profile page. (NOTE: A ‘sponsoring attorney’ is an attorney that is a HOATalk.com official sponsor and is identified as such in the posted message or on our sponsor page.)

Copyright HOA Talk.com, A Service of Community123 LLC ( Homeowners Association Discussions )   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement