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Subject: HOA Board + Management Co. wantonly violate Bylaws, CC&Rs and State Law
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Author Messages
BanksS


Posts:0


05/25/2016 11:49 AM  
Posted By PitA on 05/25/2016 10:57 AM
remind us, why, exactly, you require feedback ?

please do so in the greatest detail possible as your rhetoric is fascinating as well as highly entertaining



That's funny Pita. I thought that was the purpose of your posts. To fascinate and entertain us.😊
JonD1


Posts:0


05/25/2016 1:29 PM  
Posted By BanksS on 05/25/2016 6:10 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 05/25/2016 1:18 AM
Troy,

It appears that you and I have different methodologies to fix the issue we both agree upon (board members not complying with applicable laws and governing documents).

My methodology worked for me.
You indicate that your methodology works for you.

I wish you luck.

Tim



This was my point in an earlier post. The board may see Troy as the adversary. Since I was sued by my HOA, the Board sees me as the homeowner they sued and that is not who I am as a person. I stuck up for myself and now I have been labeled as a troublemaker and kook. I have tried to change the Board's perception of me by volunteering for committees, helping out with mailings, donating office supplies but to no avail. I do ask questions and ask for board meeting minutes as I do not live in an open meeting state. I guess the Board sees that as being difficult. I do speak up when I disagree with a decision or a policy but I am always respectful. The Board has on a couple of occasions ignored my requests for minutes but I gently remind them that by law they have 10 days to honor that request.

Lawsuits either initiated by the Board or a homeowner always bring a whole new dynamic to a relationship. I'm afraid that stigma will always be attached to me and I will never be able to change that. But life does go on. Perhaps Troy sees his method as the only way to get the HOA to comply with the governing documents. As I have said before, no two HOAs are alike.





Banks

Why is you only appear to jump on the bandwagon of anyone who claims to be fighting their HOA? Why is it those like yourself and Troy, who as a legal assistant claims to have more knowledge than any lawyer, come to a site designed for Board members and those who serve their communities? When neither of you serves? Now your only claim to community involvement was being sued by your own HOA. Troy too does not actually serve though he claims that is his decision. So say he...

So on its face neither of you serves in the capacity of board member. My guess your chances or doing so stand at less than zero. But you both come to a site and preach all you know to those who actually doing the job. The term arrogant comes to mind.....

So Troy pops up bragging about all he has accomplished over 17 years. Although on his postings he describes how just two other property owners appeared at the board meeting after he had put out a call to arms for all his supporters to appear, he claims many IMs and private communications of all the support he in fact has. So say he...

Troy has no concept of the working relationship between board, lawyer, MC. His version simply does not exist in common practice. He makes no mention of the costs to his community for legal fees he has caused. His inability to overcome he common problem of apathy indicates his limitations in going above and beyond to achieve a desired goal. Fighting the good fight for 17 years mean little. In Troy's world no,other board, community, or HOA has overcome apathy. That would qualify as nonsense.

And Banks you really never bothered to consider just how your decision to engage in litigation with your HOA might affect you going forward? Just how did you think the board and other home owners might view you wasting their time and money? Did you think they would be happy about it? Or did you not think about it at all?

Seems you still are paying a price for that decision. And in my view whatever has occurred since the lawsuit was settled you brought on yourself.
I doubt that will change. No matter how many gestures you make to prove you are not the person who forced the HOA to sue when in fact you were.
And now making sure you get copies of minutes along with jumping on the crazy train of any dissident who appears on a site not designed for their use serves as some moral victory for you. Defending the poor souls who can't accomplish their on goals while you yourself have succeeded only in making yourself unwelcome within your own community.

My guess Troy's endless battle will continue on for years to come. The only thing stopping him might be a broken arm from patting himself on the back.
Like you, Troy has an agenda that does not consider what might be best for the community or the other owners. Like you he views the board members as the enemy. While in most cases they will be your neighbors who you will be living with for some time to come. Maybe you should explain to Troy how that has worked out for you. But life goes on........

My guess shortly Troy drift off while claiming just how much you offered the members who post here. How little we all knew and just how bright he still thinks he is. You Banks will wait for the next crazy train to,I'll into the station withnyourmbags already packed. In the hopes ofmifmthey win you win too.
They succeed you feel like a success. Reality is Banks you made your bed now you have to deal with it. For a one time to come.

I am sure there has to be a site for those who sued their HOA, plan to sue their HOA or know everything about HOAs and life that you and Troy can head on over to. This site is for those who do the difficult job neither you nor Troy will ever do or could ever do.

TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/25/2016 2:29 PM  
Posted By JonD1 on 05/25/2016 1:29 PM
Posted By BanksS on 05/25/2016 6:10 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 05/25/2016 1:18 AM
Troy,

It appears that you and I have different methodologies to fix the issue we both agree upon (board members not complying with applicable laws and governing documents).

My methodology worked for me.
You indicate that your methodology works for you.

I wish you luck.

Tim



This was my point in an earlier post. The board may see Troy as the adversary. Since I was sued by my HOA, the Board sees me as the homeowner they sued and that is not who I am as a person. I stuck up for myself and now I have been labeled as a troublemaker and kook. I have tried to change the Board's perception of me by volunteering for committees, helping out with mailings, donating office supplies but to no avail. I do ask questions and ask for board meeting minutes as I do not live in an open meeting state. I guess the Board sees that as being difficult. I do speak up when I disagree with a decision or a policy but I am always respectful. The Board has on a couple of occasions ignored my requests for minutes but I gently remind them that by law they have 10 days to honor that request.

Lawsuits either initiated by the Board or a homeowner always bring a whole new dynamic to a relationship. I'm afraid that stigma will always be attached to me and I will never be able to change that. But life does go on. Perhaps Troy sees his method as the only way to get the HOA to comply with the governing documents. As I have said before, no two HOAs are alike.





Banks

Why is you only appear to jump on the bandwagon of anyone who claims to be fighting their HOA? Why is it those like yourself and Troy, who as a legal assistant claims to have more knowledge than any lawyer, come to a site designed for Board members and those who serve their communities? When neither of you serves? Now your only claim to community involvement was being sued by your own HOA. Troy too does not actually serve though he claims that is his decision. So say he...

BLAH BLAH SNIVEL GRUNT GROAN DRIVEL ARROGANT PRESUMPTUOUS ASSUMPTIONS BLAH BLAH BLAH...

I am sure there has to be a site for those who sued their HOA, plan to sue their HOA or know everything about HOAs and life that you and Troy can head on over to. This site is for those who do the difficult job neither you nor Troy will ever do or could ever do.





Wow, that was a whole lot of the Pot Calling the Kettle Black nonsense right there Jon.

You have the audacity to label us as arrogant, yet your entire response was nothing but good old fashioned wholesome arrogance! Not to mention it was pompously given as well.

People like you will never understand people like Banks and I simply because you refuse to - it's called denial of the fact that anyone else could know more or be a better judge of a situation than the lot of you self-righteous arrogant and pompous individuals. And these remarks of mine are entirely valid observations of your behavior (not unlike Melissa and the rest of your like minded ilk)put on display here for all to see/read by your black and white comments.

Why don't you go on a vacation from this thread like Melissa is...do us all a favor. 3 pages of discussion with barely a page of actual discussion and proper feedback from so few of you. All the rest wasted space by the self-righteous arrogance such as yourself and your cohorts.

One has to wonder how many threads throughout this forum are laced with this kind of crap muddying up the discussion.

Bottom line, in an HOA (and no two are the same, as said more than once herein) there are always two sides to a story; but you and your cohorts have made it abundantly clear in this thread that you could care less what the other side of the story is, only your side matters as board members. And yet you point your finger labeling homeowners as arrogant (and accuse them of being ignorant of how HOA/Boards work, etc.) without realizing there are three more fingers pointed right back at you. That is what is truly arrogant.

My last posting/comment in response to you. You, like Melissa, are a waste of everyone's time when you make asinine fallacious comments like this.
PitA


Posts:0


05/25/2016 2:31 PM  
..... and the beat goes on ..... and on ..... and on ...................................................................................................................................
DonA2
(Arizona)

Posts:170


05/25/2016 2:54 PM  
The one's I feel sorry for are Troy's neighbors. We just have to deal with his arrogance here. Imagine what they must have to put up with....
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/25/2016 2:59 PM  
Posted By DonA2 on 05/25/2016 2:54 PM
The one's I feel sorry for are Troy's neighbors. We just have to deal with his arrogance here. Imagine what they must have to put up with....




Another arrogant self-righteous pompous one to add to the merry-go-round of condescending insulting behavior in this forum.

You all are making this "A positive place for community association leaders to share smear tactics and learn how to be an insulting pompous jerk to homeowners on a grand scale."
DonA2
(Arizona)

Posts:170


05/25/2016 3:37 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/25/2016 2:59 PM
Posted By DonA2 on 05/25/2016 2:54 PM
The one's I feel sorry for are Troy's neighbors. We just have to deal with his arrogance here. Imagine what they must have to put up with....




Another arrogant self-righteous pompous one to add to the merry-go-round of condescending insulting behavior in this forum.

You all are making this "A positive place for community association leaders to share smear tactics and learn how to be an insulting pompous jerk to homeowners on a grand scale."




Nice try. But you seem to have all the answers on how HOA's need to be dealt with. I'll stand by my statement that I would hate to be one of your neighbors... There's always that one...
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/25/2016 3:49 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/25/2016 9:02 AM

my method is the only way to get the HOA to comply with the governing documents. It's worked in the past and will continue to work...and we shall see how the "relationship" changes if and when my HOA is sued.




Troy,

I would disagree with your statement that it is "the only way to get the HOA to comply."

Most on this site have had problems with their Association and it was solved by the posters becoming involved with the actual running of the Association. This, according to your postings, appears to be something you have decided not to try or even consider.

This can easily irk many (including me at times) when someone complains about how a job is being done (regardless if it is a valid complaint or not - and yes your complaints are valid) but refuses to do the job themselves.

In one of your posts, regarding the attitude of choosing not to serve, you posted:

Posted By TroyS2 on 05/24/2016 11:26 AM

It is not a pessimistic attitude, but a pragmatic attitude towards Board members who have served up to and some beyond 10 years. They are rooted in their own problems and ignorance, defiant to defend said ignorance, clearly, and serving with them would serve no purpose other than to cause a migraine.




You don't appear to be thankful that even with their faults, they were willing to step up (just as you and I were willing to step up and serve in the military) when others won't. You don't acknowledge that if they were not willing to serve (and if others won't step up) that the Association might go into receivership (yep, worst case but I'm making a point).

Based on your short resume you posted earlier, you have likely been in positions of doing a job others didn't want to do and in a job that more often receives complaints on how you did your job vs. being thanked for at least doing the job to the best of your ability. I would have thought that such an experience would have one recognize a similar situation (serving in a job that is often thankless).


For me, I'm not going to complain about someones performance in a job unless I'm willing to do the job myself. My offer of assistance might not be accepted, but my willingness will at least have been expressed. Like you, I became frustrated with individuals not realizing that they were in non-compliance with applicable laws and the governing documents (even when I showed them were it was). However, I learned that it's often the approach used (as Banks more elegantly expressed)that has the message heard or not heard. I've learned, through my military experience, that you can use a baseball bat on the top of someones head until they do the job right but that approach only changes the final result and typically doesn't change the thinking process that had the issue go wrong in the first place.

To me, although it's sometimes needed, legal actions are the same as using the baseball bat.

I believe the best way to fix issues is to become involved and serve (which allows changes to take place from within).
If they won't accept your offer of service, then I believe the second option is to gather support and replace those currently serving with others who won't need to have to be hit with a baseball bat.
Finally, if the two other options don't work, then it may be time to buy a new bat.


As I said, most on this forum have utilized option 1 or 2 and were successful.
Some on this site have had to use option 3 but they tried options 1 and 2 first.

As I said (and the point of this posting), your choice (from what I've read) to not serve but, instead, swing the bat can irk those who have taken the time to serve or are at least willing to serve. Please take the time to see that perspective (as I am fairly confident you have experienced that perspective in your professional career). If you don't see it with those on this forum, please try and see it with those who serve on your board. I believe that if you Thank them for serving while trying to correct the issues you are experiencing, you may be able to achieve the changes you desire more easily (more flies with honey type of thing and, I believe, a more verbose way of saying what I did in my very first posting.

Again, I wish you luck.

Tim






TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/25/2016 3:49 PM  
Posted By DonA2 on 05/25/2016 3:37 PM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/25/2016 2:59 PM
Posted By DonA2 on 05/25/2016 2:54 PM
The one's I feel sorry for are Troy's neighbors. We just have to deal with his arrogance here. Imagine what they must have to put up with....




Another arrogant self-righteous pompous one to add to the merry-go-round of condescending insulting behavior in this forum.

You all are making this "A positive place for community association leaders to share smear tactics and learn how to be an insulting pompous jerk to homeowners on a grand scale."




Nice try. But you seem to have all the answers on how HOA's need to be dealt with. I'll stand by my statement that I would hate to be one of your neighbors... There's always that one...




LOL! I don't even need to try. You and your ilk do all the work for me.

For me and my particular HOA, yes, I do have all the answers. I, after all, am the one with the most intimate knowledge of what our HOA has done and continues to do. YOU DO NOT! All you have is what little information I've provided and your filtered rose colored glasses to digest it in the pieces you choose to see (which is tantamount to selective listening), then the rest you discard with fallacious retorts.

All that you know of me is by my knowledge and experience expressed herein. That is hardly enough to make such an absolute judgment of not wanting to know me on a personal level by not wanting to my neighbor. This is also a case in point that serves to prove that I do not need to try, you do all the work for me. I mean really, what does it say about you as a person when you make such flat out asinine absolute statements without any basis in fact to such a position? It's immature and wholeheartedly divisive. If there is that one, by your own display herein, it is to you to be that one.

Enjoy the lonely life.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/25/2016 3:51 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/25/2016 9:02 AM

my method is the only way to get the HOA to comply with the governing documents. It's worked in the past and will continue to work...and we shall see how the "relationship" changes if and when my HOA is sued.




Troy,

I would disagree with your statement that it is "the only way to get the HOA to comply."

Most on this site have had problems with their Association and it was solved by the posters becoming involved with the actual running of the Association. This, according to your postings, appears to be something you have decided not to try or even consider.

This can easily irk many (including me at times) when someone complains about how a job is being done (regardless if it is a valid complaint or not - and yes your complaints are valid) but refuses to do the job themselves.

In one of your posts, regarding the attitude of choosing not to serve, you posted:

Posted By TroyS2 on 05/24/2016 11:26 AM

It is not a pessimistic attitude, but a pragmatic attitude towards Board members who have served up to and some beyond 10 years. They are rooted in their own problems and ignorance, defiant to defend said ignorance, clearly, and serving with them would serve no purpose other than to cause a migraine.




You don't appear to be thankful that even with their faults, they were willing to step up (just as you and I were willing to step up and serve in the military) when others won't. You don't acknowledge that if they were not willing to serve (and if others won't step up) that the Association might go into receivership (yep, worst case but I'm making a point).

Based on your short resume you posted earlier, you have likely been in positions of doing a job others didn't want to do and in a job that more often receives complaints on how you did your job vs. being thanked for at least doing the job to the best of your ability. I would have thought that such an experience would have one recognize a similar situation (serving in a job that is often thankless).


For me, I'm not going to complain about someones performance in a job unless I'm willing to do the job myself. My offer of assistance might not be accepted, but my willingness will at least have been expressed. Like you, I became frustrated with individuals not realizing that they were in non-compliance with applicable laws and the governing documents (even when I showed them were it was). However, I learned that it's often the approach used (as Banks more elegantly expressed)that has the message heard or not heard. I've learned, through my military experience, that you can use a baseball bat on the top of someones head until they do the job right but that approach only changes the final result and typically doesn't change the thinking process that had the issue go wrong in the first place.

To me, although it's sometimes needed, legal actions are the same as using the baseball bat.

I believe the best way to fix issues is to become involved and serve (which allows changes to take place from within).
If they won't accept your offer of service, then I believe the second option is to gather support and replace those currently serving with others who won't need to have to be hit with a baseball bat.
Finally, if the two other options don't work, then it may be time to buy a new bat.


As I said, most on this forum have utilized option 1 or 2 and were successful.
Some on this site have had to use option 3 but they tried options 1 and 2 first.

As I said (and the point of this posting), your choice (from what I've read) to not serve but, instead, swing the bat can irk those who have taken the time to serve or are at least willing to serve. Please take the time to see that perspective (as I am fairly confident you have experienced that perspective in your professional career). If you don't see it with those on this forum, please try and see it with those who serve on your board. I believe that if you Thank them for serving while trying to correct the issues you are experiencing, you may be able to achieve the changes you desire more easily (more flies with honey type of thing and, I believe, a more verbose way of saying what I did in my very first posting.

Again, I wish you luck.

Tim






BanksS


Posts:0


05/25/2016 6:58 PM  
To Tim,

I do not have a thankful heart to a board who demanded thousands of dollars from me and my husband that no one in the association had paid months after I moved into my property. I don't have a thankful heart to a board who called me wanton and malicious. That I purposefully damaged their property and caused them irrrepairable harm. I am pretty certain most of you would not eagerly grab your checkbook and write out a check to the association for a fee that was charged to a new property owner because the board had failed to collect enough money from themselves and other homeowners in previous years to properly manage the common sewer system.

With that being said, I believe there is room on this site to have a civil disagreement and discussion about HOA issues.
JonD1


Posts:0


05/25/2016 7:15 PM  
My guess Troy's 15 minutes is just about up.

Being right is a full time occupation. And working under the misguided belief you understand a job you yourself have never done is simply beyond arrogant.
The gaul for someone who has reached the level of legal assistant to express the opinion they are better erupted than any attorney is simply mind-boggling

Troy has simply put a bandaid on a fundamental problem and deludes himself into thinking he has seen success. As Tim has stayed many of us faced the same issues as Troy unlike Troy we addressed the root cause and resolved the source rather than seeking petty, temporary moral victories.

I have served on my board for 29 years now. And unlike Troy got re-elected every 3 years. I removed the long serving former board. I fired the MC, the lawyer and all the self dealing service providers. Truth be told I forgot more about serving on an HOA board than the wizard Troy will ever know.

Was it possible for Troy to,learn something from this site? YES. Did he? Not possible when you think you already know it all, believe no one can know as much as you, and accept only complete agreement with your flawed views.

Troy is a paralegal who views himself as more capable than those who finished law school. Huh?
Certainly, in his mind he knows far more about board service than anyone who has actually served despite the fact he has never held the position.
Some sort of self created fantasy world Troy resides in.

I doubt with time Troy will continue to post. People like Troy need approval and validation. I noticed just how fond he became of Banks when she voiced her support. Although she too has never, will never, could never serve on her own board. Her biggest accomplishment is obtaining a copy of the board minutes!

With the exception of Banks, whose praise means little Troy has failed to find what he lives for. A pat on the top of his head and maybe a treat for a job well done. Holding off the big bad board who despite their best efforts may make mistakes, may flounder but at least they have the willingness the serve.

Troy, Banks and others only run their mouths from the cheap seats. How it should be done. The way they think it should be done. How they would do it if only they could get on the board and then gather enough support to implement their ideas. In the real world where Troy and Banks live not gonna happen ever...
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/25/2016 7:25 PM  
Banks,

Having a thankful heart and giving credit where credit is due are two different things. I can understand you not liking an individual or individuals who serve on your Board. There will always be a bad apple or two in the barrel.

However, even with your dislike of of those serving, you have tried to also serve and, if I recall correctly, that offer was accepted on one or more occasions.


Yes, those who served (perhaps are still serving) on your Board did things poorly. However, they should still receive credit for at least stepping up and volunteering to do the job. They may or may not have served the best they could have. However, like you, they were still willing to step up and try. That should be recognized. Yes, hold them accountable for their poor decisions. This can still be done while thanking them for their service.

The person in my community who I think caused a lot of the issues I have dealt with while serving on my board did the best they could with the time they were willing to spend. They were even instrumental in dealing with a County road widening that encroached on our common property. Personally, I don't think I could have handled that as well as they did. That doesn't mean I don't hold them accountable for failing to have annual audits (a violation of our covenants) or failing to perform a reserve study (required by statute). However, I can still thank them for what they did do that was right and for their effort for what they thought was right.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/25/2016 8:40 PM  
Posted By BanksS on 05/25/2016 6:58 PM
To Tim,

I do not have a thankful heart to a board who demanded thousands of dollars from me and my husband that no one in the association had paid months after I moved into my property. I don't have a thankful heart to a board who called me wanton and malicious. That I purposefully damaged their property and caused them irrrepairable harm. I am pretty certain most of you would not eagerly grab your checkbook and write out a check to the association for a fee that was charged to a new property owner because the board had failed to collect enough money from themselves and other homeowners in previous years to properly manage the common sewer system.

With that being said, I believe there is room on this site to have a civil disagreement and discussion about HOA issues.




Thank you Banks for being the voice of common sense and logical reasoning.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/25/2016 8:46 PM  
Posted By BanksS on 05/25/2016 6:58 PM
To Tim,

I do not have a thankful heart to a board who demanded thousands of dollars from me and my husband that no one in the association had paid months after I moved into my property. I don't have a thankful heart to a board who called me wanton and malicious. That I purposefully damaged their property and caused them irrrepairable harm. I am pretty certain most of you would not eagerly grab your checkbook and write out a check to the association for a fee that was charged to a new property owner because the board had failed to collect enough money from themselves and other homeowners in previous years to properly manage the common sewer system.

With that being said, I believe there is room on this site to have a civil disagreement and discussion about HOA issues.




I feel and understsnd you're plight Banks
BanksS


Posts:0


05/26/2016 4:31 AM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/25/2016 8:40 PM
Posted By BanksS on 05/25/2016 6:58 PM
To Tim,

I do not have a thankful heart to a board who demanded thousands of dollars from me and my husband that no one in the association had paid months after I moved into my property. I don't have a thankful heart to a board who called me wanton and malicious. That I purposefully damaged their property and caused them irrrepairable harm. I am pretty certain most of you would not eagerly grab your checkbook and write out a check to the association for a fee that was charged to a new property owner because the board had failed to collect enough money from themselves and other homeowners in previous years to properly manage the common sewer system.

With that being said, I believe there is room on this site to have a civil disagreement and discussion about HOA issues.




Thank you Banks for being the voice of common sense and logical reasoning.



Thanks Troy. I hope you stick around as I believe you offer a unique perspective to the forum.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/26/2016 8:10 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/26/2016 8:58 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 05/25/2016 3:51 PM



For me, I'm not going to complain about someones performance in a job unless I'm willing to do the job myself.






There is no logic or common sense to that statement Tim.






Troy,

I posted how it works for me.
Based on your posts, I had already expected that this was not how it worked for you.


Perhaps others will see the logic and common sense in my thoughts that you do not.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


05/26/2016 8:35 PM  
Yeah. Troy your right... I've been laughing the whole time...

Former HOA President
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/26/2016 9:08 PM  
Troy,

I'm not sure why you have chosen to resort to name calling.
I believe that I have been civil with you and attempted to discuss the issues.

I did not go into your questions because my comment was about me and my behavior.

However, to answer your questions, yes I have made complaints. I've also taken the time to compliment. I've also tried not to complain without offering a possible solution.

However, I also recognize that individuals (the officer in your example) is simply doing their job. I may or may not question the policy (like the time I received a ticket for speeding on a new road and had saw the speed limit change to what I was doing just two weeks later) and be annoyed if I receive a ticket, but that doesn't diminish the respect I have for the Officer who gave it to me.

In each complaint I've made, I've either done that job (or a similar job) or would be willing to do the job that they are doing. That's me. It might be others. We know that it's not you, and thats fine.

To go back to the original point (which seems to be getting sidetracked), I'm simply pointing out that to hear complaints from someone about how one is doing the job they are doing yet that same individual chooses not to even be willing to do the job themselves, can irk some who are hearing the complaint.

Hence my suggestion to recognize and be appreciative (a little bit) about the fact that they are willing to do a job you are not willing to do even if the job is not being done to the standards you would expect. Again, hold them accountable for bad decisions or actions. Simply recognize that they are willing to do something that has to be done which others are not willing to do but benefit just the same.

For me (again a personal opinion about myself), since we have an open seat on the Board, I will often offer to support them to be appointed to the position so the can be part of the process when making the type of decisions they are complaining about. Those who decline the offer to serve (which are most of them) I either have a chuckle about or simply shake my head and walk away. To those few (and there have been some) who accept the offer, we have had a great working relationship and learned from each other.

One can rationalize many reasons to not serve.
However, the simple recognition that one is willing to do a job others are not can go a long way.
This philosophy of mine can be applied to all jobs. Here are a few that one might not think of:

Law enforcement
Fire fighters
Military
Refuse collectors
dish washers
fruit pickers

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


05/26/2016 9:42 PM  
You do know Tim that Troy is grasping at the last straws of attention by trying to draw you into something. Simple psycology. Ever the victim but going to call others names. Have seen this before. Glad you have offered up the advice you have. I am just to call it out as I see it. Truth can only be seen by others eyes...

Former HOA President
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/26/2016 10:12 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/26/2016 9:42 PM

Tim, it is patently clear that you have NEVER served in the military (Armed Forces).




26 years. US Navy Retired


Posted By TroyS2 on 05/26/2016 9:42 PM

As such, any references you make to "serving" on the board of an HOA is a JOKE!




Since I did serve, does that quell the joke?



Posted By TroyS2 on 05/26/2016 9:42 PM

There is NO comparison between the two.




Since you have not served on a Board, I'm not sure you have the basis to make that determination.

Some comparisons would be:

1) Reading and interpreting statutes and regulations
2) Making decisions based on the the interpretation of those statutes and regs
3) Drafting, proposing and implementing policies
4) Following the documents even if you disagree with them
5) Willing to stand up and not follow an unlawful decision
6) Serving your position until your replacement has been identified and trained (which is also corporate law)
7) Spending time away from family and friends because the job required it.
8) Doing a job many are not willing to do but enjoy the benefits (or failures) of your work
9) Doing the best you can with what you have and an often underfunded budget
10) Dealing with the complaints about the job while still completing the mission.



Posted By TroyS2 on 05/26/2016 9:42 PM

Board members are ignorant weak minded "volunteers" whom cannot understand the plain language of the go governing documents of the HOA, much less the law.




Legalize is not easy to understand and governmental regulations are just as difficult.

However, how dare you categorize all Board members as ignorant or weak minded.

That is the same as someone calling all police Officers murders, all lawyers crooks and all merchants a thief.

As I said in the past, there are individuals who have questionable character. However, to lump everyone together under the same label is simply not factual and, in my opinion, demonstrates poor character of the individual doing it.




Posted By TroyS2 on 05/26/2016 9:42 PM

Ignorance. That is all I see and read in this forum.




Yet, you have made many statements in this thread and in other threads are not based in fact. You fail to provide sources to defend your statements and when challenged about them, simply choose to deflect hoping the flaws in your arguments will go unnoticed by most of the readers of this site (whom you have already determined are ignorant and weak minded).




Sir,

I do wish you luck as I do believe that you have some valid issues within your Association that you are trying to correct.

In my opinion and from my perspective, you were hoping that this forum would support your actions. Instead, you were challenged to support your beliefs and provide the basis for your opinions. In this, again in my opinion and from my perspective, you have failed to do so. However, I can understand if your opinion and from your perspective you would disagree. I'll let others draw their own conclusions.

As I have been civil to you, tried to explain my perspective, provided options that I have personal experiences in having been successful and been met with praises when you agreed with my statements and called ignorant when you disagreed with my statements, I chose to find a better use of my time then to respond to further postings from you (although I will continue to provide articles, court cases and legal opinions of others when you can not defend some statements that you may choose to make).

Again, I do wish you luck and (as I believe it would be helpful) that you reread the advice many have given here and take from it what you can.


Typically, I respond with I hope this helps.
However, in this case, I'm not sure it will.
BanksS


Posts:0


05/27/2016 6:15 AM  
Tim said,
"I do wish you luck as I do believe that you have some valid issues within your Association that you are trying to correct..., "

I agree with Tim on this.

My point was IMO changes can be made within an HOA that do not necessarily require board membership to make those changes. Many posters here opined that board membership was the method to go about making those changes. Since I was sued by my HOA, I have a different perspective than most here who are or have been board members. I believed Troy to have a different perspective as well and that he will respectfully offer that perspective on this site.

Hopefully Troy will see that there is room for a civil disagreement and discussion on this forum. - BanksS

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


05/27/2016 6:31 AM  
FYI: I was on vacation and my father died. Now I am on bereavement leave. Now spending time dealing with a much more crooked group of people than a HOA board... Funeral Home Directors... So where do you want to take your argument Troy? To the grave too? Get over yourself. There's more important things in life... Like living it.

Thank you to the rest of the posters for your prayers and well wishes. It's been a tough week for me and posting gives my mind a break. I was 15 minutes into my vacation when I got the news. It was a bit unexpected. I posted I was on vacation and that was true at the time. Just posting that for those who want to cry "Hypocrite".

Former HOA President
JonD1


Posts:0


05/27/2016 12:35 PM  
In a nut shell this is Troy's opinion of those who serve on HOA boards.

Posted By TroyS2 on 05/26/2016 9:42 PM

"Board members are ignorant weak minded "volunteers" whom cannot understand the plain language of the go governing documents of the HOA, much less the law."


Leaves little to discuss or a perspective that offers anything.

I have to agree my sympathies to those who are forced to deal with such a pompous, all knowing, fool.

And may I offer my condolences for your Father's loss.

PitA


Posts:0


05/27/2016 2:23 PM  
Posted By BanksS on 05/25/2016 11:49 AM
Posted By PitA on 05/25/2016 10:57 AM
remind us, why, exactly, you require feedback ?

please do so in the greatest detail possible as your rhetoric is fascinating as well as highly entertaining



That's funny Pita. I thought that was the purpose of your posts. To fascinate and entertain us.😊




Glad to be of service.

but

Troy has surpassed the master.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11638


05/30/2016 7:40 PM  
Posted By PitA on 05/27/2016 2:23 PM
Posted By BanksS on 05/25/2016 11:49 AM
Posted By PitA on 05/25/2016 10:57 AM
remind us, why, exactly, you require feedback ?

please do so in the greatest detail possible as your rhetoric is fascinating as well as highly entertaining



That's funny Pita. I thought that was the purpose of your posts. To fascinate and entertain us.😊




Glad to be of service.

but

Troy has surpassed the master.




Hopefully Troy has gone away.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


05/30/2016 7:48 PM  
In my original post on this thread, I wondered what Troy was seeking here.

He's made up his mind already. Other than finding a forum to express his views that hoa boards suck, I see little in the way of a willingness to reach a middle ground. His way or highway.

Once again, I'm asking my original question. What is Troy seeking to accomplish in mediation.

The ability to tell his board all the things it does wrong - They already know those things - or will if they read his 10 pager.

Mediation is an attempt to reach a mutual compromise. But in Troy's eyes, there can be no compromise.

I understand the desire to have a soap-box, but I don't understand someone going into mediation who is unwilling to accept a perspective other than his own.

I've mediated at least several hundred disputes. I know from experience what I'm talking about.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/01/2016 10:46 AM  
Troy, it sounds to me like your board does violate the governing documents and possibly state law as well, and your board currently encourages a culture of 'the board can do whatever it wants.' You have tried many years now to get these folks to follow the law. I think you are on an excellent track with first trying to get the Board to agree to mediation. What I would do next: Submit a letter of demand to the board, stating you will take the HOA to court unless it complies with such-and-such parts of state law and the gov docs. Then, if the Board refuses to comply, file a complaint in court seeking injunctive relief. From experience on the Board of my former HOA, this will take a few years to go through the courts. The judge will push for mediation early on (as the judge should), and express irritation with the Board for not doing this before the matter landed in court. The HOA likely will then agree to mediation.

I have been sued as a board director (all charges dismissed after about 1.5 year; it was terribly frivolous). But I have also studied the lawsuits where members of my former HOA prevailed against the HOA/Board. It is absolutely so that some HOA Boards illegally deny services and conduct themselves illegally, and courts do take action to correct these situations.

If you have not already, then you will want to check your gov docs and state law for whether the HOA can be forced to pay your court costs and attorneys' fees and then possibly the cost of the mediator.

I expect this effort will cost you several years of your life, and imbue your time with negativity, but my experience is that this sort of legal action does tend to lead to change for the positive.

Plan B, and not meant as any kind of attack: Consider moving.

I hope you will keep this forum updated. I think HOA members nationwide benefit from knowing how common it is for HOA Boards to fail to comply with even the most important parts of the gov docs and state law. On the other hand, I try to keep in mind that realtors are correct when they allege property values are higher with neighborhoods governed by HOAs rather than otherwise. Thank you for helping the others in your community to obtain a Board that will follow the law.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/01/2016 10:55 AM  
Since my last post, the OP posted twice to this thread and both posts were removed.

My point is very simple: Anyone going into mediation who isn't willing to compromise on anything is wasting everyone's time. There must be a good faith willingness to find a solution that both sides can accept without loss of dignity or respect.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/01/2016 11:44 AM  
Posted By NpS on 06/01/2016 10:55 AM
Since my last post, the OP posted twice to this thread and both posts were removed.

My point is very simple: Anyone going into mediation who isn't willing to compromise on anything is wasting everyone's time. There must be a good faith willingness to find a solution that both sides can accept without loss of dignity or respect.




NpS, if this lands in mediation, what is it that you think Troy should give up?

Here's the four instances of mediation, of which I know, from my current and former HOA. I only read the legal docs for these or had emails from Board Presidents on same. I had a minor role in #2 while serving on the board, before the matter landed in court.


1.
Plaintiff sought Board compliance with xyz sections of the gov docs and damages (money) for retaliatory actions by the Board, inflicting emotional distress. Went to court; the judge asked all parties to agree to mediation. They did. Plaintiff got money which I think covered his attorneys' costs and gave him around $5000 more. the lawsuit and mediation took about 2.5 years. Subsequently I think the Board was much more careful in its actions, particularly with regard to retaliation. I do not think the plaintiff really gave up anything during mediation. Afterword: About two years later the former plaintiff was duly elected to the Board with some of his sympathizers also elected as directors. The new board instantly fired the business manager and landscaper. The replacements the new board found did end up being better. The former plaintiff did not last long as board president, driven out by legal means. A few years later the business manager that had been fired was arrested for embezzling from numerous HOAs. People, myself included, all had loathed the plaintiff, but the plaintiff was correct about the crookedness of the business manager (who held mighty sway over the board) and the former landscaper (in cahoots with the former business manager). I give the former plaintiff enormous credit.

2.
Plaintiff sought injunctive relief to compel the Board to enforce the covenants against his neighbor and also to force the neighbor to comply with the covenants over an architectural matter. Plaintiff went through several attorneys, I think for being difficult. But the plaintiff won several thousand dollars as an award from both the HOA and the neighbor. This also took about 2.5 years.


3.
A new Board President decided to go after those in arrears on their assessments, using a collections attorney and taking to court the ones who owed the most. These collection efforts landed in mediation much of the time. In these situations, the mediator did seek some "give" from both sides. The agreed upon dollar figure was typically much less than what was owed, even after excluding the interest imposed per the gov docs. I would call these mediations victories for the members and losses for the Board and HOA.

4.
A HOA member complained to HUD for discrimination based on familial status. The Board foolishly dug in. The Board retaliated. The HOA attorney joined in the retaliation. The outcome? HUD mediated a settlement ordering around $50,000 to be paid to the complainant plus attorney's fees. Expensive changes were made to the HOA grounds to make them more child-friendly. HOA employees and the HOA attorney were ordered by HUD to write letters of apology to the complainant. The costs to the HOA were so high that a several hundred dollar special assessment was imposed on each member.


NpS, my impression has similarly been that mediators try to get both sides to give up something. But what I have seen in reality is that, when a Board is demonstrably in the wrong, it's the Board and HOA that pay up, and not the complaining member.

NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/01/2016 1:59 PM  
Probably the most interesting case I mediated involved a guy who went to the parking lot of his prior employer with a couple of 300-pound buddies and accosted people he knew at gunpoint and had them empty their pockets/pocketbooks and give him all their cash. He saw nothing wrong in what he did because he felt wronged by the company. The company had instructed all employees not to talk with him because of litigation. He was angry because they followed the instruction from the company. The employees he accosted were scared to sit in the same room with him.

And that's the short version. I think we spent 6 hours getting the right people to sit in a room together for a 1 hour mediation. Very complex because everyone used to have good relations with each other once upon a time.

What I know is that it's almost never one side vs the other. There are almost always a whole bunch of different players with different roles and different attitudes that become part of the mix.

A board is not one person. Every time one seat changes, there can be a massive change in the culture or none at all. Many people who post on this site have told their story of how they attempted to transform their HOAs from within. Some succeeded. Some didn't. Their stories often involve figuring out how to deal with the different characters who influence outcomes. Until you're in the soup yourself, you don't really know what it's like to stay afloat.

So when you say it's the disgruntled owner on one side and the Board and the HOA on the other, I think you're being way too simplistic. There's always a bunch of other people affected. There may be people who just want to live their lives in peace and would be embarrassed to speak out. Anyone who says that he's speaking on their behalf may be missing their point. They may dread controversy more than anything else. Speaking out "for them" may be the exact opposite of what they want.

The biggest loss may not be the dollars. It could very well be the diversion of attention to the content of the lawsuit.

It is my personal view (backed up by my HOA docs) that the Prez sets the agenda. If you don't like her, get rid of her - That's fine with me. But ... when someone who isn't the Prez demands that the Board must deal with his agenda items first, he is demanding to take the decision-making authority about what the true priorities are away from the board.

For example, I think the OP was up in arms (apologize if I'm wrong on this) because the docs said the meeting must be held in Feb, but it didn't take place til Mar - or something like that. I say "Is that the biggest thing I want my board to be spending time on?" My answer is "No." I'm willing to respect the Prez to decide what the priorities are. And if I don't like the agenda she sets, I have no problem dumping her. But if I demand the authority to choose what the priorities are, then I have no way to assess her performance. IMO, I'm shooting myself in the foot when I try that.

As a mediator, my first goal is to understand whether the dispute involved a long-term relationship that's likely to continue. The question I try to figure out is what's more important - Settle on a dollar figure - or mend personal fences if at all possible. The bucks are easy. Personal relationships are a whole other matter.

I have often quoted Voltaire who said a few centuries ago: "I was never ruined but twice: Once when I lost a lawsuit and once when I won one."

I think his words still ring true today.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/01/2016 5:31 PM  
Posted By NpS on 06/01/2016 1:59 PM

So when you say it's the disgruntled owner on one side and the Board and the HOA on the other, I think you're being way too simplistic. There's always a bunch of other people affected. There may be people who just want to live their lives in peace and would be embarrassed to speak out. Anyone who says that he's speaking on their behalf may be missing their point. They may dread controversy more than anything else. Speaking out "for them" may be the exact opposite of what they want.




I cannot tell what your point is. To me, if people do not want to take sides in a legal confrontation, then it's no skin off anyone's nose.


The biggest loss may not be the dollars. It could very well be the diversion of attention to the content of the lawsuit.




I do not buy this. The HOA attorney takes care of it. The Board keeps doing what it always has, with the added budgeting for the cost of the attorney for the lawsuit and quite possibly, an increase in the HOA's insurance premiums.


It is my personal view (backed up by my HOA docs) that the Prez sets the agenda. If you don't like her, get rid of her - That's fine with me. But ... when someone who isn't the Prez demands that the Board must deal with his agenda items first, he is demanding to take the decision-making authority about what the true priorities are away from the board.




I never saw who-sets-the-agenda-for-meetings named as the issue here. To me the true priorities are following the governing documents.

I am working from the OP's first post in this thread. The Board was unhappy with him recording the meeting. I think many were uncertain about the law. The Board should have asked the OP to leave, obtained a legal opinion, and gone from there. If the OP did not like the legal opinion, and the Board still insisted he could not record meetings, then the OP can add this to any legal complaint. It does require the OP to recognize that legally, the board is in power, and if he is disruptive, he can be removed (by the police if necessary).


For example, I think the OP was up in arms (apologize if I'm wrong on this) because the docs said the meeting must be held in Feb, but it didn't take place til Mar - or something like that. I say "Is that the biggest thing I want my board to be spending time on?" My answer is "No."




The OP said it was the annual meeting that was postponed, and beyond what the gov docs allow. If this annual meeting is when the HOA's elections take place, and the board is delaying election of new directors, my answer is an emphatic "yes."

Folks here are pretty emphatic about members who complain being agreeable to run for the board. When a board is not holding the election promised in the gov docs, this is not possible. The Board is corrupt and a lawsuit likely is the only way to remedy this.



I'm willing to respect the Prez to decide what the priorities are. And if I don't like the agenda she sets, I have no problem dumping her. But if I demand the authority to choose what the priorities are, then I have no way to assess her performance.




To me, "demanding" is never the way to go about anything. One reasons with the board or member, and points out what the gov docs or law say. Then the board or member complies with these or does not (excepting the times where there is a pretty clear ambiguity in the gov docs or statutes). If the board or member does not comply, and the issue is important, the board or member can try their chances in court.


I have often quoted Voltaire who said a few centuries ago: "I was never ruined but twice: Once when I lost a lawsuit and once when I won one."




With regard to HOA lawsuits, I tend to agree, with a caveat: Those not named in the lawsuit tend to benefit from the victory, regardless of which side wins. The decision of the court (or mediator) will provide clarification. There's better understanding of what's expected. Boards and members alike get an education.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/01/2016 6:36 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 06/01/2016 6:28 PM


Our Board meetings are held at an assisted living community neighboring our HOA.

The Board has NO authority to ask anyone to leave, we are guests of the facility. Only the manager or owner of the facility has the authority to as us to leave, and I mean us, not just one person.

Law enforcement, by state statute CANNOT get involved in matters of civil law (i.e. civil matters/affairs). So no, local law enforcement CANNOT force me to leave at the behest of the board members. If the facility asked me and I refused, that would be different because I can then be "trespassed" from the facility. BUT, that will not work either because the Board would then have to change locations of their meetings as under state law (and governing documents) I have a legal right to be there.




Troy, so you would continue to stay at a board meeting and disrupt it as long as you physically could stand doing this?

As for local law enforcement not getting involved, what you claim is not my experience. The police can and do get involved in civil disputes when one party is behaving, say, in a disorderly way. Disrupting a legal meeting is not protected by the First Amendment.

I do not support disrupting a legal meeting. You need to raise your points in a civil fashion and then, when rebuffed, take the matter to a letter of demand, then a mediator (where possible) or to court. It will hurt your cause and make things more complicated legally, and not in your favor, when the board or assisted living manager calls the police to escort you out.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/01/2016 6:47 PM  
Thank you, Troy. I caught a few of your deleted posts. I will check your blog for updates on how this is proceeding legally. I always bear in mind how these disputes go on at all levels and have occurred since the birth of man- and woman-kind.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/01/2016 6:53 PM  
I just confirmed that Troy's HOA's annual meeting does include election of directors. From Troy's HOA's Bylaws:

ARTICLE II - MEETINGS
4. Annual Meetings. The annual meetings of the Association [SHALL] be held in the months of [MAY OR JUNE] at such hour and on such date as the president may designate, or if the president should fail to designate such date by the first of May, then on the last Tuesday in June. The annual meetings shall be for the purpose of electing directors and for the transaction of such other business as may properly come before the meeting. [EMPHASIS Troy's]

Wow. I say get your best arguments together, find out if the HOA has to pay your attorney's costs, write that letter of demand, and take the HOA to court.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


06/01/2016 7:07 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 06/01/2016 6:46 PM

I will continue to post this so Augustine sees this...and can see the childish behavior of the admins deleting my legitimate posts.




All,

The only time I have seen posts disappear like they have happened with Troy this evening is when the Administrators of this site has decided to ban someone.
See: Subject: New Banning Procedure On This Site

and

Subject: Reaction to "New Banning Procedure"


If anyone is interested in seeing all posts to a thread (even those that become deleted by administrators), they may subscribe to the thread by simply clicking the box next to "Email me when someone replies to this thread" (which is located at the top of each thread when you open it). Keep in mind when making this decision that if someone posts the same message multiple times, you will get multiple e-mails (one email for each posting)

Expecting that Troy has been banned, a work around might be that, those interested might want to continue discussing the issue on Troys site (which he provided addresses to in the initial posting to this thread).
DonA2
(Arizona)

Posts:170


06/01/2016 8:10 PM  
From 3 pages to twelve in just a couple of hours? Someone was busy posting...
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 6:23 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/01/2016 5:31 PM

The biggest loss may not be the dollars. It could very well be the diversion of attention to the content of the lawsuit.


I do not buy this. The HOA attorney takes care of it. The Board keeps doing what it always has, with the added budgeting for the cost of the attorney for the lawsuit and quite possibly, an increase in the HOA's insurance premiums./div>
We're mostly self-managed.

Our Board meets when we need to but mostly we keep each other up to date via email. We also communicate with our homeowners mostly via email.

On average, each of our Board members sees around 13 emails a day. They read the ones that they think affect their responsibility, they write some themselves of maybe make a phone call or take a drive to see a vendor, accountant, lawyer, or whatever. They don't get paid for doing any of this.

We're involved in litigation right now. The bank that foreclosed on a house in our community filed a claim to eliminate assessments that took place AFTER the bank took ownership. They got a judge to sign an order doing this. In my county, judges don't admit mistakes - so this is going to be costly going forward.

Instead of 13 emails a day, we're now averaging 16 emails a day. And the one's involving litigation are a lot harder to slug though than the usual stuff that we're used to dealing with on a day to day basis.

All of this attention on protecting the HOA from the bank means that we aren't going to have the time to devote to paving our streets this year. As the cost of oil goes up, that paving job (which will be the most amount we've ever spent) is going to get more expensive. All that planning for our streets is now on hold because we don't have the time as volunteers to deal with two major issues at one time.

We'd pave our streets this year, but our most knowledgeable person about the streets is also our most knowledgeable person about the lawsuit and he doesn't have the time to devote to both.

So to be perfectly blunt with you, WE COULD GIVE A CRAP ABOUT THE FOOLS WHO THINK THAT THEY CAN DIVERT US FROM THE AGENDA THAT WE'VE PUT TOGETHER FOR OURSELVES. WHEN THEY COME AT US DEMANDING THAT WE DEAL WITH THEIR ISSUE BEFORE ALL OTHERS AND NEVER ASK "WHAT ARE THE BOARD'S PRIORITIES?" OR "WHAT DOES THE BOARD THINK WE SHOULD BE SPENDING MONEY ON FIRST IF AT ALL?" - IF YOU THINK YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT WE DO THEN TAKE THE TIME TO FIND OUT WHAT WE DO. RUN FOR THE BOARD AND TAKE A SEAT BESIDE US. READ AND PARTICIPATE IN DEALING WITH THE THOUSANDS OF EMAILS THAT CROSS OUR SCREENS EACH YEAR. LEARN WHAT IT"S LIKE TO DECIDE WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY AND WHAT ISN'T. OTHERWISE, take a pill.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 6:24 AM  
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 6:23 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 06/01/2016 5:31 PM

The biggest loss may not be the dollars. It could very well be the diversion of attention to the content of the lawsuit.


I do not buy this. The HOA attorney takes care of it. The Board keeps doing what it always has, with the added budgeting for the cost of the attorney for the lawsuit and quite possibly, an increase in the HOA's insurance premiums.

We're mostly self-managed.

Our Board meets when we need to but mostly we keep each other up to date via email. We also communicate with our homeowners mostly via email.

On average, each of our Board members sees around 13 emails a day. They read the ones that they think affect their responsibility, they write some themselves of maybe make a phone call or take a drive to see a vendor, accountant, lawyer, or whatever. They don't get paid for doing any of this.

We're involved in litigation right now. The bank that foreclosed on a house in our community filed a claim to eliminate assessments that took place AFTER the bank took ownership. They got a judge to sign an order doing this. In my county, judges don't admit mistakes - so this is going to be costly going forward.

Instead of 13 emails a day, we're now averaging 16 emails a day. And the one's involving litigation are a lot harder to slug though than the usual stuff that we're used to dealing with on a day to day basis.

All of this attention on protecting the HOA from the bank means that we aren't going to have the time to devote to paving our streets this year. As the cost of oil goes up, that paving job (which will be the most amount we've ever spent) is going to get more expensive. All that planning for our streets is now on hold because we don't have the time as volunteers to deal with two major issues at one time.

We'd pave our streets this year, but our most knowledgeable person about the streets is also our most knowledgeable person about the lawsuit and he doesn't have the time to devote to both.

So to be perfectly blunt with you, WE COULD GIVE A CRAP ABOUT THE FOOLS WHO THINK THAT THEY CAN DIVERT US FROM THE AGENDA THAT WE'VE PUT TOGETHER FOR OURSELVES. WHEN THEY COME AT US DEMANDING THAT WE DEAL WITH THEIR ISSUE BEFORE ALL OTHERS AND NEVER ASK "WHAT ARE THE BOARD'S PRIORITIES?" OR "WHAT DOES THE BOARD THINK WE SHOULD BE SPENDING MONEY ON FIRST IF AT ALL?" - IF YOU THINK YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT WE DO THEN TAKE THE TIME TO FIND OUT WHAT WE DO. RUN FOR THE BOARD AND TAKE A SEAT BESIDE US. READ AND PARTICIPATE IN DEALING WITH THE THOUSANDS OF EMAILS THAT CROSS OUR SCREENS EACH YEAR. LEARN WHAT IT"S LIKE TO DECIDE WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY AND WHAT ISN'T. OTHERWISE, take a pill.




Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 6:51 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/01/2016 5:31 PM
The OP said it was the annual meeting that was postponed, and beyond what the gov docs allow. If this annual meeting is when the HOA's elections take place, and the board is delaying election of new directors, my answer is an emphatic "yes."

Last night, our Board met for four hours to discuss policy changes we might make that wouldn't affect our ordinary homeowners but would put the screws to REO thugs.

Let's say our docs required us to hold our annual meeting on July 1.

If we need the next month to finalize a plan that we want to announce at the annual month, we might want to push back the meeting.

IMO, our choices would be:

A. Hold the meeting on July 1 and don't take advantage of the annual meeting to announce the changes; or

B. Hold the meeting on Aug 1 and maximize the opportunity to have a dialog on what these changes mean to everyone.

If your only choices were A or B, which would you pick?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/02/2016 7:08 AM  
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 6:24 AM
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 6:23 AM
WE COULD GIVE A CRAP ABOUT THE FOOLS WHO THINK THAT THEY CAN DIVERT US FROM THE AGENDA THAT WE'VE PUT TOGETHER FOR OURSELVES. WHEN THEY COME AT US DEMANDING THAT WE DEAL WITH THEIR ISSUE BEFORE ALL OTHERS AND NEVER ASK "WHAT ARE THE BOARD'S PRIORITIES?" OR "WHAT DOES THE BOARD THINK WE SHOULD BE SPENDING MONEY ON FIRST IF AT ALL?" - IF YOU THINK YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT WE DO THEN TAKE THE TIME TO FIND OUT WHAT WE DO. RUN FOR THE BOARD AND TAKE A SEAT BESIDE US. READ AND PARTICIPATE IN DEALING WITH THE THOUSANDS OF EMAILS THAT CROSS OUR SCREENS EACH YEAR. LEARN WHAT IT"S LIKE TO DECIDE WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY AND WHAT ISN'T. OTHERWISE, take a pill.



To me what you wrote sums up nicely why many boards go rogue, doing whatever they want: They're burned out. They find it easier to run the HOA like a dictatorship, making up their own rules. This is despite many of their actions violating the law. I bet around 50% of HOA boards nationwide have boards with this attitude.

As a former director, I have found that the workload of a board diminishes when it tries hard to always follow the governing documents. Melissa or someone else (apologies) spoke of how the first thing she did when there was a new board was to have people cite exactly the part of a gov doc that supported her or his position. This is greatness at work. And things do get easier as people get more educated about the contract to which all agreed upon purchasing into a HOA. Also I have found when a board makes mistakes but is honest and contrite about them this tends to lead to less dissension, not more. The board has a lot more peace when it is not constantly trying to cover up its violations of the gov docs. I still remember an error in the books that showed my former HOA in the red to the tune of about $40,000. This had been reported to members for months. The first thing the new Board I got together did was order the business managers to find the problem. Between the business managers and my efforts reviewing the software's output, we found the problem and that in fact the HOA had been consistently in the black by about $60,000. The checking account reflected this. I announced what had happened at the next board meeting, which was well-attended. No one batted an eyelash. This was despite a lot of anger at being in the red (ostensibly) in the previous months.

Thank you for telling me about your approach to mediation (assuming you have some kind of certification as a mediator). I have tended to think that, if one's interest is the law, then agreeing to go to mediation is a mistake. Stick with the judge and use motion practice to win the lawsuit.

You wrote above: "My point is very simple: Anyone going into mediation who isn't willing to compromise on anything is wasting everyone's time. There must be a good faith willingness to find a solution that both sides can accept without loss of dignity or respect."

Our exchange started with my query, "if this lands in mediation, what is it that you think Troy should give up?"

I take your responses to mean that, in mediation, Troy should agree to cease asking that the board adhere to the governing documents and state law on certain issues. It would be interesting to see what a mediator would say to this.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/02/2016 7:28 AM  
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 6:51 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 06/01/2016 5:31 PM
The OP said it was the annual meeting that was postponed, and beyond what the gov docs allow. If this annual meeting is when the HOA's elections take place, and the board is delaying election of new directors, my answer is an emphatic "yes."

Last night, our Board met for four hours to discuss policy changes we might make that wouldn't affect our ordinary homeowners but would put the screws to REO thugs.

Let's say our docs required us to hold our annual meeting on July 1.
If we need the next month to finalize a plan that we want to announce at the annual month, we might want to push back the meeting.
IMO, our choices would be:
A. Hold the meeting on July 1 and don't take advantage of the annual meeting to announce the changes; or
B. Hold the meeting on Aug 1 and maximize the opportunity to have a dialog on what these changes mean to everyone.

If your only choices were A or B, which would you pick?



A, and on July 1 at the annual meeting, I would announce the policy as a proposal to the new board. I would recognize that a new board might not see things as I do. I would put my plan on hold, letting the will of the members speak, as the law requires. Furthermore, when a board fails to hold the required election, the legal validity of the board, and all its decisions, is in question. This opens the door to members filing complaints in court and costs the HOA. If I did not win re-election, then I would wipe my brow and be thankful I was relieved of all the work that you indicate, in all caps, you do not like.

What you propose would be like President Obama saying, 'We need to get judge so-and-so on the Supreme Court to deal with the far right thugs. Let's postpone the November election awhile so we can achieve this plan.'

I appreciate your sharing your view as a board member. It tells me this is how much lawbreaking some boards are willing to do to keep a stranglehold on a HOA's operations.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/02/2016 8:47 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/19/2016 8:08 AM
Funny... When I became President of my HOA I went back to basics. I brought the rules to each meeting. If questioned, we would respond by taking time to refer to the rules before providing an answer. That way we could educate ourselves in the correct response and directly refer to the exact rule wording. If we issued violations, we did the same thing. We would provide the exact quote from the CC&R's or ACC documents they were in violation of.

We didn't need someone to be our "Watchdog". I also find that a HOA that follows Robert Rules of Order, typically aren't acting irrationally. Not every state is required to use that meeting process. It doesn't sound like an out of control board if there are procedures/process in place. You just have to work WITHIN the system...

It seems we have another "Hero" that would rather fall on their sword than run with it. No one needs or wants a hero in their HOA. They want people who participate and doesn't rip it apart for their self serving needs/wants.




Forums like hoatalk.com might not even be necessary if Boards did what Melissa beautifully proposes in the first two paragraphs above.

Unfortunately though the third paragraph seems inconsistent with the first two paragraphs. First Melissa emphasizes the importance of constantly referring to the gov docs and precisely citing the sections of the governing documents, prior to taking an action. Then she chastises a member as selfish for wanting his board to do the same. To me, this does not compute.

Melissa also alleges that the quiet HOA members do not want someone more extroverted asking a board to follow the governing documents. I do not think this is so. Studies show that many an introvert who agrees with a rabble rouser will not have the ability to make his or her agreement heard. So they stay quiet and let the extroverts do the bidding for them.

Civilization's progress has always depended on an outsider going against the grain. From anthropologist Margaret Mead: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 8:57 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 7:08 AM
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 6:24 AM
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 6:23 AM
WE COULD GIVE A CRAP ABOUT THE FOOLS WHO THINK THAT THEY CAN DIVERT US FROM THE AGENDA THAT WE'VE PUT TOGETHER FOR OURSELVES. WHEN THEY COME AT US DEMANDING THAT WE DEAL WITH THEIR ISSUE BEFORE ALL OTHERS AND NEVER ASK "WHAT ARE THE BOARD'S PRIORITIES?" OR "WHAT DOES THE BOARD THINK WE SHOULD BE SPENDING MONEY ON FIRST IF AT ALL?" - IF YOU THINK YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT WE DO THEN TAKE THE TIME TO FIND OUT WHAT WE DO. RUN FOR THE BOARD AND TAKE A SEAT BESIDE US. READ AND PARTICIPATE IN DEALING WITH THE THOUSANDS OF EMAILS THAT CROSS OUR SCREENS EACH YEAR. LEARN WHAT IT"S LIKE TO DECIDE WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY AND WHAT ISN'T. OTHERWISE, take a pill.



To me what you wrote sums up nicely why many boards go rogue, doing whatever they want: They're burned out. They find it easier to run the HOA like a dictatorship, making up their own rules. This is despite many of their actions violating the law. I bet around 50% of HOA boards nationwide have boards with this attitude.

I agree with much of what you say about boards that go rogue. On the other hand, you seem to have skipped over the most important part of ny message:
1. Before demanding that your issue must be dealt with first, have the courtesy to ask what's the Board working on now that you guys think is most important?
2. Take a test drive - Come see what it's like to deal with our little imperfect world. Then we can talk, not as adversaries, but as people who share a common problem.

Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 7:08 AM
As a former director, I have found that the workload of a board diminishes when it tries hard to always follow the governing documents. Melissa or someone else (apologies) spoke of how the first thing she did when there was a new board was to have people cite exactly the part of a gov doc that supported her or his position.

I've been on my Board for four years now. I'm leaving in two. Some of the things I set out to accomplish four years ago, we haven't even started yet.

We all have our own unique styles. When we send notices, we don't cite the docs unless someone asks us to. We think it's more important to convey the message that this is a community where we do things that foster respect for each other. For example, we'll say "Even if that sign would be a good sign to put the landscapers on notice, we don't want you to start a trend where anyone can put up a sign whenever they want for any reason they want. And by the way, our docs don't allow signs." Then we get in touch with the landscaper to find a solution, and get back to the homeowner so she knows what solution we've come up with. It's actually a lot harder to do, but in the long run, we think that's what gives us the biggest win.

Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 7:08 AM
And things do get easier as people get more educated about the contract to which all agreed upon purchasing into a HOA.

Our first priority is goodwill and safety in the neighborhood. 80% of our homeowners would never read our docs anyway. We spend a lot of time trying to educate them about mutual respect throughout the community. Some people don't get it.

Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 7:08 AM
Also I have found when a board makes mistakes but is honest and contrite about them this tends to lead to less dissension, not more. The board has a lot more peace when it is not constantly trying to cover up its violations of the gov docs. I still remember an error in the books that showed my former HOA in the red to the tune of about $40,000. This had been reported to members for months. The first thing the new Board I got together did was order the business managers to find the problem. Between the business managers and my efforts reviewing the software's output, we found the problem and that in fact the HOA had been consistently in the black by about $60,000. The checking account reflected this. I announced what had happened at the next board meeting, which was well-attended. No one batted an eyelash. This was despite a lot of anger at being in the red (ostensibly) in the previous months.

Agree with you that things shouldn't get swept under the rug. I respect what you've accomplished.

Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 7:08 AM
Thank you for telling me about your approach to mediation (assuming you have some kind of certification as a mediator). I have tended to think that, if one's interest is the law, then agreeing to go to mediation is a mistake. Stick with the judge and use motion practice to win the lawsuit.

I've got around 250 hours of training in mediation on everything from elder and mental health issues to child custody issues to EEOC employment claims to personal injury cases. I'm on the list of certified mediators for the Delaware Superior Court. I'm also a professional arbitrator. I've got a drawer full of certificates that I have no interest in tacking on a wall.

I've done hundreds of mediations at a community center. If your only experience is the court-related kind, then I agree, it's very likely that nothing will be accomplished because the priority of the mediator is often to keep this from becoming a trial and bogging down the court.

Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 7:08 AM
You wrote above: "My point is very simple: Anyone going into mediation who isn't willing to compromise on anything is wasting everyone's time. There must be a good faith willingness to find a solution that both sides can accept without loss of dignity or respect."

Our exchange started with my query, "if this lands in mediation, what is it that you think Troy should give up?"

Great question. Troy has 17-years of pent up anger and frustration. If he said to his board: "I've got a whole list of stuff that's been done wrong, but if you're willing to work on things together, I'm willing to narrow my demands to these two items." What he would be "giving up" is all the other stuff in exchange for something that he's asking them to focus on and he's willing to help on. To me, that would be an incredibly powerful statement. From what I've read, I question whether Troy is willing to take anything off his list, and certainly not everything but his top 2.

Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 7:08 AM
I take your responses to mean that, in mediation, Troy should agree to cease asking that the board adhere to the governing documents and state law on certain issues. It would be interesting to see what a mediator would say to this.

If I was arbitrating, I'd answer you question very differently than if I was mediating. What exactly does "follow the rules" actually mean? Usually it means "follow this particular rule." So unless you're going to give me more to work on, I don't have an answer for you. If you asked,
"If you only had resources to deal with 1 rule, Which of these 3 rules is most important?" then I think there's something to work on.

Enjoyed the conversation. Thanks Augustin.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 9:18 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 7:28 AM
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 6:51 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 06/01/2016 5:31 PM
The OP said it was the annual meeting that was postponed, and beyond what the gov docs allow. If this annual meeting is when the HOA's elections take place, and the board is delaying election of new directors, my answer is an emphatic "yes."

Last night, our Board met for four hours to discuss policy changes we might make that wouldn't affect our ordinary homeowners but would put the screws to REO thugs.

Let's say our docs required us to hold our annual meeting on July 1.
If we need the next month to finalize a plan that we want to announce at the annual month, we might want to push back the meeting.
IMO, our choices would be:
A. Hold the meeting on July 1 and don't take advantage of the annual meeting to announce the changes; or
B. Hold the meeting on Aug 1 and maximize the opportunity to have a dialog on what these changes mean to everyone.

If your only choices were A or B, which would you pick?



A, and on July 1 at the annual meeting, I would announce the policy as a proposal to the new board. I would recognize that a new board might not see things as I do. I would put my plan on hold, letting the will of the members speak, as the law requires. Furthermore, when a board fails to hold the required election, the legal validity of the board, and all its decisions, is in question. This opens the door to members filing complaints in court and costs the HOA. If I did not win re-election, then I would wipe my brow and be thankful I was relieved of all the work that you indicate, in all caps, you do not like.

I appreciate your sharing your view as a board member. It tells me this is how much lawbreaking some boards are willing to do to keep a stranglehold on a HOA's operations.

If you're priority is to get new blood on the board, then you make a valid point. But the OP has clearly stated that he won't throw his hat in the ring for election. So I'm not sure why holding the election on a certain date is so important.

If we held an election in July or August, the result would be the same because we almost always run unopposed. The last time we had more candidates than seats was 4 years ago when I knocked someone off who liked being on the board but couldn't make a decision.

Very few are willing to do what I do for my community. You use words like "lawbreaking" and "stranglehold" as if that's some kind of universal truth. Step right up pal. Take my seat. Do what I do or do what you think is better than what I do. Great. You can run unopposed, because I won't run against you. I'd be excited that someone is taking enough of an interest to become involved.

There are times when I let our little boat drift. There are times when I grab the wheel and tell everyone to stand clear. There are times when I wish that someone would step up and take the wheel too. It rarely happens. That saddens me.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
ChesterB


Posts:0


06/02/2016 10:04 AM  
Sure enjoyed the discussion between NpS and AugustinD. I didn't really enjoy all of the e-mails from Troy but I understand his frustration. I don't agree with how he handled his frustration but that was his decision to make. I deleted my membership under BanksS so as not to ciontinue getting my in box bombarded with messages from Troy. My new membership is under ChesterB. There may have been another way to accomplish that but that is how I handled it.

The discussion between NpS and AugustnD was quite enlightening and showed me the perspectives of opposing viewpoints. Very thought provoking. They were both respectful with their responses.

I think we can all learn from this post. I continue to hope that the discussions on this forum remain civil and respectful. I do not take posters very seriously who are mean spirited and disrespectful. There have been a few that I have called them out on their behavior. I probably don't always communicate my thoughts and ideas as well as some of the others who post here and regretfully there are times when I wish I had not hit that submit button.

But carry on. It's been quite an education.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 10:25 AM  
Posted By ChesterB on 06/02/2016 10:04 AM
Sure enjoyed the discussion between NpS and AugustinD. I didn't really enjoy all of the e-mails from Troy but I understand his frustration. I don't agree with how he handled his frustration but that was his decision to make. I deleted my membership under BanksS so as not to ciontinue getting my in box bombarded with messages from Troy. My new membership is under ChesterB. There may have been another way to accomplish that but that is how I handled it.

The discussion between NpS and AugustnD was quite enlightening and showed me the perspectives of opposing viewpoints. Very thought provoking. They were both respectful with their responses.

I think we can all learn from this post. I continue to hope that the discussions on this forum remain civil and respectful. I do not take posters very seriously who are mean spirited and disrespectful. There have been a few that I have called them out on their behavior. I probably don't always communicate my thoughts and ideas as well as some of the others who post here and regretfully there are times when I wish I had not hit that submit button.

But carry on. It's been quite an education.

Whatever name you choose, you're not second to anyone when it comes to expressing your views on civility and respect. Thanks Banks.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
ChesterB


Posts:0


06/02/2016 11:14 AM  
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 10:25 AM
Posted By ChesterB on 06/02/2016 10:04 AM
Sure enjoyed the discussion between NpS and AugustinD. I didn't really enjoy all of the e-mails from Troy but I understand his frustration. I don't agree with how he handled his frustration but that was his decision to make. I deleted my membership under BanksS so as not to ciontinue getting my in box bombarded with messages from Troy. My new membership is under ChesterB. There may have been another way to accomplish that but that is how I handled it.

The discussion between NpS and AugustnD was quite enlightening and showed me the perspectives of opposing viewpoints. Very thought provoking. They were both respectful with their responses.

I think we can all learn from this post. I continue to hope that the discussions on this forum remain civil and respectful. I do not take posters very seriously who are mean spirited and disrespectful. There have been a few that I have called them out on their behavior. I probably don't always communicate my thoughts and ideas as well as some of the others who post here and regretfully there are times when I wish I had not hit that submit button.

But carry on. It's been quite an education.

Whatever name you choose, you're not second to anyone when it comes to expressing your views on civility and respect. Thanks Banks.



😊 thanks! The regular posters are probably thinking don't encourage her. Ha! I really do try to refrain from being the self-appointed moderator but sometimes I just can't help myself. I really haven't hopped on the "crazy train." I prefer to allow posters to express their views without the risk of retaliation from others who disrespectfully disagree with them.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 11:16 AM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 06/02/2016 10:55 AM
It is great to know that the email that members received who have participated in this discussion with interest can at least read what I am typing even after it is arbitrarily deleted.

Other than Tim, I don't think there's anyone who posts here regularly who hasn't been stung by the censors.

I was annoyed at first. But after a while, I learned where the censors' boundaries are.

I've changed how I say things only so slightly. I still get my message across and the censors don't have to waste their time on my postings. Some would call that win-win.




Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 11:44 AM  
Those who can accept the limitations of this forum stay. Those who can't go.

People who want to rant constantly lose the respect of others sooner or later.

Augustin and I don't agree. He'll go on doing things his way. And I'll go on doing things my way.

But neither one of us is getting censored. Not because the censors are loyal to us or they like what we're saying, but because we have figured out what it takes to not get censored. It's not any more complicated than that.

I can't speak for Augustin, but I appreciate the fact that Hoatalk is a free service. I don't want Hoatalk to decide to shut down this forum because the censors are spending too much time monitoring the traffic.

If all you can think about is your own version of what's right and wrong, you don't think about the allocation of limited resources, then you are destined to get stuck on your own "one-way highway."

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 11:47 AM  
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 11:44 AM
Those who can accept the limitations of this forum stay. Those who can't go.

People who want to rant constantly lose the respect of others sooner or later.

Augustin and I don't agree. He'll go on doing things his way. And I'll go on doing things my way.

But neither one of us is getting censored. Not because the censors are loyal to us or they like what we're saying, but because we have figured out what it takes to not get censored. It's not any more complicated than that.

I can't speak for Augustin, but I appreciate the fact that Hoatalk is a free service. I don't want Hoatalk to decide to shut down this forum because the censors are spending too much time monitoring the traffic.

If all you can think about is your own version of what's right and wrong, you don't think about the allocation of limited resources, then you are destined to get stuck on your own "one-way highway."


Seems like the post I was responding to got disappeared. Apologize if unclear without the OP's prior post.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/02/2016 12:48 PM  
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 8:57 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 7:08 AM

If I was arbitrating, I'd answer your question ["What do you think Troy should give up?"] very differently than if I was mediating.



NpS, would you mind elaborating on the way in which arbitrating would differ from mediating? I take you at your word that you have all these certifications and experience in formal mediating and arbitrating. I think it would be instructive to HOA member and boards to read whatever distinctions you care to share. Of course one can google and get some idea, but let me hear this off-the-top-of-your-head first, as an introduction. My HOA's Rules & Regs have a requirement to use an arbitrator, citing the specific organization to contact, should an accused member or director want to appeal a Board ruling, and assuming the rest of the complaint procedure in the Rules & Regs was followed. Troy said Oregon requires mediation in this case before going to court. I expect mediation or arbitration is required for many HOAs before going to court. Thank you in advance.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/02/2016 12:52 PM  
Thank you for the kind words, ChesterB.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 1:27 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 12:48 PM
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 8:57 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2016 7:08 AM

If I was arbitrating, I'd answer your question ["What do you think Troy should give up?"] very differently than if I was mediating.



NpS, would you mind elaborating on the way in which arbitrating would differ from mediating? I take you at your word that you have all these certifications and experience in formal mediating and arbitrating. I think it would be instructive to HOA member and boards to read whatever distinctions you care to share. Of course one can google and get some idea, but let me hear this off-the-top-of-your-head first, as an introduction. My HOA's Rules & Regs have a requirement to use an arbitrator, citing the specific organization to contact, should an accused member or director want to appeal a Board ruling, and assuming the rest of the complaint procedure in the Rules & Regs was followed. Troy said Oregon requires mediation in this case before going to court. I expect mediation or arbitration is required for many HOAs before going to court. Thank you in advance.

Both come in many flavors. But the essential distinction is that an Arbitrator is a decision-maker, while a Mediator is a facilitator. Mediator doesn't concern himself that much with who's right and who's wrong - Priority is to see if the people can be steered toward an arrangement that they can both live with. Arbitrator would pick the winner and the amount of dollars if that was the issue at stake.

Arbitration can be binding or non-binding. If binding, the decision of the Arbitrator is the end of the road. If non-binding, then either side can still take it to court.

There's something called Med-Arb where the Neutral person conducting the session starts with Mediation, but if the parties can't agree, then the switch is flipped to Arbitration and the Neutral gives an opinion. Not a fan of this myself but some people do it.

With HOA disputes, one of the true benefits of using a Mediator is that there can be an opportunity to meet in private caucus and say things that the Mediator will keep in confidence. When I'm in caucus, the last thing I always say before leaving the room is "Is there anything we just talked about that you don't want me to share with the other side?" Then after I've met with the other side, I might come back and say "Here's where I think there's a roadblock. If you authorize me to share XYZ, then I think we can make some headway." In other words, I'm managing the people's attitudes and feelings toward each other in real-time.

Sometimes I'm successful because one side can accept a message coming out of my mouth when they couldn't tolerate the same exact message coming out of the mouth of someone they've come to hate.

No two are the same. Always fascinating to me.

Dealt with one dispute by having A put B each other on speed dial on their cell phones. They would never come together on the underlying dispute, but they both acknowledged that there were times that they needed to deal with urgent matters together - and they agreed to at least make themselves available in an emergency even though they hated each other's guts. They agreed that speed-dial would only be used in an emergency. That was a win in my book.






Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD


Posts:0


06/02/2016 2:00 PM  
Troy today submitted a couple of comments that I hope the moderators deem civil enough for me to repeat.

Troy wrote: "As BankS has pointed out in the past, one not need be willing or wanting to volunteer to be a board member in order to effect change."

I agree. Also Troy has noted that, were he elected to the board, he'd be a minority and outvoted. I have seen this in my current HOA. Worse the HOA attorney ganged up with the other two directors to, frankly, harass the odd-person-out director, denying him access to certain HOA records, humiliating him at board meetings by announcing which member's file he had read since the last board meeting, and and saying he had to resign from an online HOA forum run by other members (and to which he was not posting). The odd-person-out director hired his own attorney. The attorney wrote the HOA attorney a letter. The board reversed itself.

An article I read in the last couple of weeks spoke of HOA attorneys who are all about keeping the board directors in power who maximize the attorney's income. I do not think this is the rule, but I do think it is not uncommon. This means elections will be rigged. And you bet, my HOA attorney was sitting side by side with the election auditor with the post-election ballots, judging whose ballot should be counted for both the candidates and the two motions that arose. Someone else here posted a similar situation recently.

I tend to think the numbers can justify a person not trying to run for the board and instead, taking the stance Troy is taking.

Troy also wrote: "June 21st is the day my HOA board is meeting with the HOA attorney(s) to discuss mediation and the materials I provided to go over. After that, I should hear from the county mediation rep on whether or not they will agree to sit at the table. If not, then legal action will be the next step."

I think this is great. As of this writing, I do not think I have seen a play-by-play here of either mediation or a complaint for a court injunction against a board. "Anatomy of a HOA Mediation [or HOA Lawsuit]," if you will. I think whatever you care to relate on this will be helpful to all here. Not to encourage you per se. It is so hard being a party to a lawsuit. But I do think I 'get it,' and I do not blame you. Troy, thank you for your other kind words and this update.

NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


06/02/2016 2:40 PM  
Here's one of first things I did when i joined my board. Would like your opinion Augustin.

I looked at how much time we were spending chasing things that homeowners were complaining about. It was around 80%. I said that I didn't want to be in the business of putting out fires.

I got the board to agree that we would spend no more than 40% of our time on that stuff.

The next thing I said to my board was "Great. We've got some breathing room now. But is it right that out of the 40%, 38% is spent on the noise-makers. Don't we have the same level of obligation to those who aren't making noise. So we decided that the noisemakers got 20% of our time, the more quiet types got 20% of our time, and we got to decide what we do with the other 60%.

In my HOA, you can contribute without sitting on the Board. If you offer your time, we'll find something for you to do. If you want recognition, you can have it. If you want to remain anonymous, you can have that too.

I think that Banks would make a great addition to my HOA. So would you. But there's no room for someone who isn't willing to respect our decision on what our priorities are and how we're going to allocate our precious time.




Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
DonA2
(Arizona)

Posts:170


06/02/2016 3:09 PM  
Our Board's priority is what effects the overall community first. Then we'll deal with individual issues. Sometimes, the individual issue ends up being an issue between neighbors and it's not even an issue the Board will even pursue. But one person's complaints do not mean it's a high priority for the board to address.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


06/02/2016 3:33 PM  
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 6:51 AM

IMO, our choices would be:

A. Hold the meeting on July 1 and don't take advantage of the annual meeting to announce the changes; or

B. Hold the meeting on Aug 1 and maximize the opportunity to have a dialog on what these changes mean to everyone.

If your only choices were A or B, which would you pick?




Sorry, I see other options.

C) work like crazy to have the resolution ready for the meeting
D) Hold the Annual, announce what you can (even get feedback from those in attendance) and hold a special meeting later on
E) Perfect the changes and present it the following year
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


06/02/2016 3:39 PM  
Posted By ChesterB on 06/02/2016 10:04 AM

I deleted my membership under BanksS so as not to ciontinue getting my in box bombarded with messages from Troy. My new membership is under ChesterB. There may have been another way to accomplish that but that is how I handled it.




Banks/Chester,

There are two other ways to stop getting emails from threads:

a) go to the thread where you clicked (send me email) and un-check that box.

b) select "my profile" and then click on the subscriptions tab. From here, you may remove any threads you are receiving email about.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


06/02/2016 3:41 PM  
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2016 11:16 AM
Posted By TroyS2 on 06/02/2016 10:55 AM
It is great to know that the email that members received who have participated in this discussion with interest can at least read what I am typing even after it is arbitrarily deleted.

Other than Tim, I don't think there's anyone who posts here regularly who hasn't been stung by the censors.





I've had a few deleted as well.

Typically where I respond to an issue that hit my buttons and hit post prior to rereading and editing (which is what I've learned to do with email prior to hitting the send button).
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
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