Get 1 year of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Wednesday, October 27, 2021











HOATalk is a free service of Community123.com:

Easy to use website tools to help your board
Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.
Subject: Religious statues
Prev Next
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Page 2 of 2 << < 12
Author Messages
AugustinD


Posts:1695


09/04/2021 11:28 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/04/2021 11:21 AM
Slurred a member of the Jewish community, how????
Think.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/04/2021 11:34 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/04/2021 11:16 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/04/2021 9:38 AM

I did a word search of your CCRs and Rules, and there are no reference to US Flag, official or not.
That an alleged former California HOA/COA manager like yourself is clueless about the federal and California laws that prohibit association's from banning the flying of american flags underwhelms. Granted that in your case, this does not surprise.




One, I am not an alleged former HOA manager. Two, Kerry, or whatever her name is, posted The violator would not cooperate with the PM's courtesy letter to replace it and finally, with the board's OK the owner spoke directly with our HOA attorney who told him clearly that his flag with the cross is not an official US flag. And only the official flag of the USA may be flown on our exclusive use balconies. The violator did replace his fake US flag with a real one.

So I did a fact check, and called BS. One, what attorney calls a homeowner over something like this, second, there is no reference to a US Flag in her CCRs or Rules, much less an "official" US Flag.

DISPLAYING AMERICAN AND FOREIGN FLAGS

Federal Law. On July 24, 2006, HR42, the Freedom to Display the American Flag Act, was signed into law. It prohibits restrictions on displaying the U.S. flag on a member's unit, lot or exclusive use common area. Under the Act, community associations:

may not adopt or enforce any policy, or enter into any agreement, that would restrict or prevent a member of the association from displaying the flag of the United States on residential property within the association with respect to which such member has a separate ownership interest or a right to exclusive possession or use.

Federal law allows community associations to establish reasonable time, place, or manner restrictions necessary to protect a substantial interest of the association.

California Law. California's Civil Code §4705 adopted in 2002, allows owners to display the United States flag on their separate property or exclusive use common area, regardless of any association restrictions to the contrary, except as required for the protection of public health or safety.

Protected Manners of Display and Locations. Subject to restrictions protecting the public health and safety, California law guarantees the U.S. flag may be displayed:

in a window of a separate interest
from a staff or pole on owner's balconies, patios, decks, private yards, or other locations on a separate interest or exclusive use common area
Displaying the U.S. flag in any other manner or location may be reasonably restricted or prohibited, depending on the circumstances.

Protected Materials. California law only applies to U.S. flags made of fabric, cloth or paper. Associations may prohibit U.S. flags or depictions of the flag made from lights, paint, roofing, siding, paving materials, flora, or balloons, or any other similar material.

Advertising Restriction. Associations can prohibit the display of the US flag for advertising purposes.

Foreign Flags. Because of the broad language in Civil Code §4710, associations cannot prohibit the display of flags of other countries.

The governing documents may not prohibit posting or displaying of noncommercial signs, posters, flags, or banners on or in a member’s separate interest...

Associations can, however, limit the number of flags, whether American or otherwise, to one. See sample rules.

AugustinD


Posts:1695


09/04/2021 11:39 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/04/2021 11:34 AM

One, I am not an alleged former HOA manager.
Yes, you are an alleged former HOA manager.

Two, Kerry, or whatever her name is, posted The violator would not cooperate with the PM's courtesy letter to replace it
Non sequitur.

End of hijacking.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/04/2021 11:58 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/04/2021 11:39 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/04/2021 11:34 AM

One, I am not an alleged former HOA manager.
Yes, you are an alleged former HOA manager.

Two, Kerry, or whatever her name is, posted The violator would not cooperate with the PM's courtesy letter to replace it
Non sequitur.

End of hijacking.



Why are you here, as this is supposed to be for HOA leaders? Clearly, you don't sit on a board, probably never have, especially with a comment that your condo spent $11,000 on an annual review, and you have never been a HOA manager.
PatJ1
(North Carolina)

Posts:254


09/04/2021 3:07 PM  
Would all the seasoned contributors please STOP attacking each other.


Board members are volunteers. Many have no idea what they're doing. Educate them. Don't beat them up.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/04/2021 3:23 PM  
I'll respond later after I get home from the play Hamilton.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8620


09/04/2021 5:51 PM  
Thanks for the reminder, Pat.

Max posted the federal and state statutes that HOAs may not ban the US flag from owners' separate interests nor from their exclusive use ( limited use) common areas, that is exactly what our Board and PM relied on as did our HOA attorney. Both of the statutes emerged after our 2000 CC&Rs were published. Neither uses the word "official" flag of the USA, but they still certainly are enforceable.

As usual, Max doesn't cite his source, which is Davis-Stirling.com. In some circles, "forgetting" to cite the real authors is called plagiarism.

Max seems to accuse me of lying about the phone call between the owner in violation and our attorney. I am not offended, but such personal accusations should not be a part of this forum. The non-compliant owner felt his freedom of expression was being hampered, and to keep matters from escalating, our GC spent 10 minutes on the phone with him in the PM's office with the board prez present.

Most of us have not been HOA "managers," and that is not a qualification to contribute to this forum.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/05/2021 12:04 PM  
United States Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, states the flag shall have 48 stars, add as needed, and 13 horizontal stripes, alternating red and white. No where does it say a US Flag can't have a Christian Cross, Star of David, or a John 3:16. What did your PM, Board attorney determine exactly what type of flag your association would allow? Based on experience, the attorney is called in to "bully" the "offender" hoping they are ignorant of HOA, state or federal guidelines.

Since California and the US allow the flying of an American flag, what rule was cited as violation of their flying of a flag? Was the courtesy letter just in response to the neighbor, in another tower 50 feet away. Were they offended because they were a vet, because they were Jewish, because they were either Republican or Democrat, as you interjected all three?

You mentioned "Neither uses the word "official" flag of the USA, but they still certainly are enforceable." What is enforceable?

In regard to your issue of plagiarism, I was not taking credit for something, I was not writing a speech, nor was I writing for class credit. I was going to just post the link, but, with your busy schedule, I didn't think you take the time to research.

You keep trying to "one up" me, and I am not sure why. I am supposed to be smarter than the Boards I represent, they rely on that. It's the reason I have industry specific certifications, it's why I attend two legal seminars every year. I will say Augie probably has a leg up on reading case law, but outside of going to small claims for collections, none of the 150 HOA's I represented over 13 years has ever had a lawsuit filed against them. As an "alleged" HOA manager, I have to take some pride in that.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8620


09/05/2021 12:48 PM  
The way our attorney reads the Flag statutes is that HOAs must permit the flying of the flag of the United States of America in the places specified. "Enforceable" means one can go to court if an HOA forces them to remove their flag of the USA, threatens fines or does Fine, etc. HOAs, of course, can make rules about the flag, how it's attached to the EUCA, etc. I take our G.C's opinion waaaaaay before yours. He's done a good job for our assn. and his easy-going, friendly manner helped, no doubt, with the false flag flyer.

The 91 y.o US vet neighbor complained in writing. He did not mention he's Jewish; I do know he is. I and many others complained verbally. On the 5th floor, it was very visible to the other tower, anyone poolside and anyone in our entry circle drive. It was downright hideous.

What an odd usage of "smarter," Max. Probably should Google it.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8620


09/05/2021 12:48 PM  
The way our attorney reads the Flag statutes is that HOAs must permit the flying of the flag of the United States of America in the places specified. "Enforceable" means one can go to court if an HOA forces them to remove their flag of the USA, threatens fines or does Fine, etc. HOAs, of course, can make rules about the flag, how it's attached to the EUCA, etc. I take our G.C's opinion waaaaaay before yours. He's done a good job for our assn. and his easy-going, friendly manner helped, no doubt, with the false flag flyer.

The 91 y.o US vet neighbor complained in writing. He did not mention he's Jewish; I do know he is. I and many others complained verbally. On the 5th floor, it was very visible to the other tower, anyone poolside and anyone in our entry circle drive. It was downright hideous.

What an odd usage of "smarter," Max. Probably should Google it.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/05/2021 1:40 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/05/2021 12:48 PM
The way our attorney reads the Flag statutes is that HOAs must permit the flying of the flag of the United States of America in the places specified. "Enforceable" means one can go to court if an HOA forces them to remove their flag of the USA, threatens fines or does Fine, etc. HOAs, of course, can make rules about the flag, how it's attached to the EUCA, etc. I take our G.C's opinion waaaaaay before yours. He's done a good job for our assn. and his easy-going, friendly manner helped, no doubt, with the false flag flyer.

The 91 y.o US vet neighbor complained in writing. He did not mention he's Jewish; I do know he is. I and many others complained verbally. On the 5th floor, it was very visible to the other tower, anyone poolside and anyone in our entry circle drive. It was downright hideous.

What an odd usage of "smarter," Max. Probably should Google it.



What is a "fake flag flyer"?

Here is a link to what I found online for a US flag with a Christian Cross, https://ultimateflags.com/products/american-christian-flag-3-x-5-ft/. Obvious, I don't know exactly what the other person was flying,

The HOA, per this link: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Flag-Rules-for-Associations, shows what the attorneys at Davis-Stirling.com say should be the rules.

The rules per United States Code are here, https://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

You made this statement The Owner of the false flag removed it once our HOA attorney explained to him on the phone that it's not a real flag of the United States of America. Only the latter is allowed. Where does it state only a "real" US flag is allowed?

Would this flag be allowed? https://highlandscurrent.org/2020/06/05/wide-views-of-thin-blue-line/

I did google "smarter, and, well.....

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8620


09/05/2021 5:05 PM  
Thanks for the citation, Max. In it we can see that my phony-flag-flying neighbor actually was guilty of mutilating Old Glory. Note the below refers only to "the flag," and has no need to refer to "official," real," "authentic," etc. We all know exactly what "the flag" means in this context.

History.com
"United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 — The Flag
§1. Flag; stripes and stars on The flag of the United States shall be thirteen horizontal stripes, alternate red and white; and the union of the flag shall be forty-eight stars [Note: Sec. 2 provides for additional stars; Today the flag has fifty stars representing the fifty states — Webmaster], white in a blue field
§2. Same; additional stars. On the admission of a new State into the Union one star shall be added to the union of the flag...
§3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; MUTILATION [KL emph.] of flag
Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached, appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature... shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days, or both, in the discretion of the court."

Exclusive Use Common Area in CA is sometimes referred to as "EUCA."
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/05/2021 5:28 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/05/2021 5:05 PM
Thanks for the citation, Max. In it we can see that my phony-flag-flying neighbor actually was guilty of mutilating Old Glory. Note the below refers only to "the flag," and has no need to refer to "official," real," "authentic," etc. We all know exactly what "the flag" means in this context.

History.com
"United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 — The Flag
§1. Flag; stripes and stars on The flag of the United States shall be thirteen horizontal stripes, alternate red and white; and the union of the flag shall be forty-eight stars [Note: Sec. 2 provides for additional stars; Today the flag has fifty stars representing the fifty states — Webmaster], white in a blue field
§2. Same; additional stars. On the admission of a new State into the Union one star shall be added to the union of the flag...
§3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; MUTILATION [KL emph.] of flag
Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached, appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature... shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days, or both, in the discretion of the court."

Exclusive Use Common Area in CA is sometimes referred to as "EUCA."



You need to stop, NOW!

Now, I know for a fact you ain't in District of Columbia
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/05/2021 5:52 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/05/2021 5:05 PM
Thanks for the citation, Max. In it we can see that my phony-flag-flying neighbor actually was guilty of mutilating Old Glory. Note the below refers only to "the flag," and has no need to refer to "official," real," "authentic," etc. We all know exactly what "the flag" means in this context.

History.com
"United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 — The Flag
§1. Flag; stripes and stars on The flag of the United States shall be thirteen horizontal stripes, alternate red and white; and the union of the flag shall be forty-eight stars [Note: Sec. 2 provides for additional stars; Today the flag has fifty stars representing the fifty states — Webmaster], white in a blue field
§2. Same; additional stars. On the admission of a new State into the Union one star shall be added to the union of the flag...
§3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; MUTILATION [KL emph.] of flag
Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached, appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature... shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days, or both, in the discretion of the court."

Exclusive Use Common Area in CA is sometimes referred to as "EUCA."



Never mind, don't stop. My wife finds your comments hilarious!
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8620


09/05/2021 8:58 PM  
Why did you cite it, Max, if you didn't think it appleid widely. Why DID you cite it?
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/05/2021 9:01 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/05/2021 8:58 PM
Why did you cite it, Max, if you didn't think it appleid widely. Why DID you cite it?



Does the Sunday fog last all day?
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/05/2021 9:21 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/05/2021 8:58 PM
Why did you cite it, Max, if you didn't think it appleid widely. Why DID you cite it?



What does the US Flag have to do with the OP's question?
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:1040


09/06/2021 6:53 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/05/2021 12:04 PM
United States Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, states the flag shall have 48 stars, add as needed, and 13 horizontal stripes, alternating red and white. No where does it say a US Flag can't have a Christian Cross, Star of David, or a John 3:16.



There are literally billions of things that you could say, "no where does it say a U.S. Flag can't have..." The specific description of the U.S. Flag is clear and was codified by the Flag Act of 1818. To me, it goes without saying that the U.S. flag must meet the description set in law, without significant changes.

For example, if you substitute the 50 stars for a gold crescent and starburst your flag becomes the flag of Malaysia and is not a U.S. flag by any measure.

https://usdaughters1812.org/the-flag-act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Malaysia
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/06/2021 7:01 PM  
Posted By BenA2 on 09/06/2021 6:53 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/05/2021 12:04 PM
United States Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, states the flag shall have 48 stars, add as needed, and 13 horizontal stripes, alternating red and white. No where does it say a US Flag can't have a Christian Cross, Star of David, or a John 3:16.



There are literally billions of things that you could say, "no where does it say a U.S. Flag can't have..." The specific description of the U.S. Flag is clear and was codified by the Flag Act of 1818. To me, it goes without saying that the U.S. flag must meet the description set in law, without significant changes.

For example, if you substitute the 50 stars for a gold crescent and starburst your flag becomes the flag of Malaysia and is not a U.S. flag by any measure.

https://usdaughters1812.org/the-flag-act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Malaysia



And your point?
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:1040


09/06/2021 7:21 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/06/2021 7:01 PM
Posted By BenA2 on 09/06/2021 6:53 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/05/2021 12:04 PM
United States Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, states the flag shall have 48 stars, add as needed, and 13 horizontal stripes, alternating red and white. No where does it say a US Flag can't have a Christian Cross, Star of David, or a John 3:16.



There are literally billions of things that you could say, "no where does it say a U.S. Flag can't have..." The specific description of the U.S. Flag is clear and was codified by the Flag Act of 1818. To me, it goes without saying that the U.S. flag must meet the description set in law, without significant changes.

For example, if you substitute the 50 stars for a gold crescent and starburst your flag becomes the flag of Malaysia and is not a U.S. flag by any measure.

https://usdaughters1812.org/the-flag-act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Malaysia



And your point?



My point is that the flag code does not have to say the flag "can't have a Christian cross." The Flag Act's specificity of what the flag DOES HAVE excludes everything else. A flag with a cross or Star of David that is similar to a U.S. flag does not get the same protections as an ACTUAL U.S. Flag.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8620


09/06/2021 7:23 PM  
Though your citation, Max, saysDC, the title of it is: "United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 — The Flag." Placing any design, symbol, ON IT, etc. is prohibited including, of course, any religious symbols.

the obvious tie-in to David's question is that some owners in his assn. demand they be permitted to keep religious statutes on their lawns, which opposes the CC&Rs, which ban ALL objects for HOA maintenance-obligations reasons. My example was to show that religious objects, such as those that create a bogus US flag, CAN be banned from an HOA's limited use use common area based on Federal and state law and the United States Code, Title 4, Chap. 1.

How cute that Max's wife finds me hilarious. Was it the mental pic of the yard flamingo wearing a bishop's hat? I easily believe Mrs. Max has an excellent sense of humor.

I keep asking Max to cite his sources, as we all should, instead or presenting written materials as if his own. But he keeps pretending. His writing "style" is so, um, unique, that other arrangements of words clearly are not his. The latest example, perhaps elsewhere, is his definition of "pedantic." The good news is that he looked it up.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/06/2021 7:39 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/06/2021 7:23 PM
Though your citation, Max, saysDC, the title of it is: "United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 — The Flag." Placing any design, symbol, ON IT, etc. is prohibited including, of course, any religious symbols.

the obvious tie-in to David's question is that some owners in his assn. demand they be permitted to keep religious statutes on their lawns, which opposes the CC&Rs, which ban ALL objects for HOA maintenance-obligations reasons. My example was to show that religious objects, such as those that create a bogus US flag, CAN be banned from an HOA's limited use use common area based on Federal and state law and the United States Code, Title 4, Chap. 1.



What she finds hilarious is your lack of reading skills. While I consider myself somewhat smart, my wife has me hands down in that category.

Here is the code from the US House of Representatives, https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/[email protected]/chapter1&edition=prelim

Maybe you can read this and comprehend what is written, but I don't hold out much hope.

Sorry, your CCRs and Rules and Regulations do not back up what your legal counsel did.

MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/06/2021 7:40 PM  
Ben

You're going to have a lot of attorneys that will disagree with your interpretation.
AugustinD


Posts:1695


09/07/2021 7:15 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/04/2021 11:34 AM
So I did a fact check, and called BS. One, what attorney calls a homeowner over something like this, second, there is no reference to a US Flag in her CCRs or Rules, much less an "official" US Flag.
-- The CCRs give KerryL1's association the right to regulate et cetera what is on the exterior, balconies, et cetera of owners' units, don't they?

-- Federal law prohibits HOAs/COAs/CIDs from prohibiting owners from displaying the American flag, as long as certain conditions are met, including conditions pertaining to the design of the American flag.

-- The COA's regulation of what is on unit exteriors et cetera includes ensuring that the display of the American flag, as allowed under federal law and state law, is consistent with said federal law and state law.

Posted By MaxB4 on 09/04/2021 11:34 AM
So I did a fact check, and called BS. One, what attorney calls a homeowner over something like this, second, there is no reference to a US Flag in her CCRs or Rules, much less an "official" US Flag.
This was no fact check by MaxB4. 4 USC 1 states:

The following codification of existing rules and customs pertaining to the display and use of the flag of the United States of America is established for the use of such civilians or civilian groups or organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one or more executive departments of the Government of the United States. The flag of the United States for the purpose of this chapter shall be defined according to sections 1 and 2 of this title and Executive Order 10834 issued pursuant thereto. [snip]

Executive Order 10834 states in part:

Sec. 31. The flag prescribed by Executive Order No. 10798 of January 3, 1959, shall be the official flag of the United States until July 4, 1960, and on that date the flag prescribed by Part I of this order shall become the official flag of the United States;


Executive Order 10834, Part I.
Part I--Design of the Flag

Section 1. The flag of the United States shall have thirteen horizontal stripes, alternate red and white, and a union consisting of white stars on a field of blue.

Sec. 2. The positions of the stars in the union of the flag and in the union jack shall be as indicated on the attachment to this order, which is hereby made a part of this order.

Sec. 3. The dimensions of the constituent parts of the flag shall conform to the proportions set forth in the attachment referred to in section 2 of this order.


-- Federal statutes 4 USC 1 and 4 USC 2 have similar language regarding strips and stars.

-- BenA2's arguments of course reflect the correct reading of "shall" in this law.

-- Any assertion by MaxB4 that HOA/COA/CID attorneys do not enforce federal laws as they pertain to HOA/COA/CIDs is absurd. By MaxB4's reasoning HOA/COA/CID attorneys should not assist boards with Fair Housing Act violations allegedly perpetrated by owners, residents or the board. Nonsense.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/07/2021 8:18 AM  
The CCRs would give Kerry's association the right to enforce either the CCRs or the rules, but there is no rule in either the CCRs or the rules addressing the issue. Maybe Kerry will send you a copy of her CCRs and Rules Handbook.

I have posted this link on multiple times, so the question asked has been answered., https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Displaying-Flags

I also posted a link to the flag Kerry described. It had 50 stars, all in the right place, it had 13 stars, alternating red and white, all in the right places. It had a white cross, which wasn't mutilated. So, the 91-year-old that Kerry brought up, were they offended because they were a vet, Jewish or either a Republican or Democrat, as all three were brought up.

So, if the GM sent a courtesy letter, what violation of the CCRs or Rules Handbook was the owner guilty of? Don't you always say that you can't do anything unless it's in the covenants?
DavidG45
(Delaware)

Posts:141


09/07/2021 8:22 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 8:18 AM
The CCRs would give Kerry's association the right to enforce either the CCRs or the rules, but there is no rule in either the CCRs or the rules addressing the issue. Maybe Kerry will send you a copy of her CCRs and Rules Handbook.

I have posted this link on multiple times, so the question asked has been answered., https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Displaying-Flags

I also posted a link to the flag Kerry described. It had 50 stars, all in the right place, it had 13 stars, alternating red and white, all in the right places. It had a white cross, which wasn't mutilated. So, the 91-year-old that Kerry brought up, were they offended because they were a vet, Jewish or either a Republican or Democrat, as all three were brought up.

So, if the GM sent a courtesy letter, what violation of the CCRs or Rules Handbook was the owner guilty of? Don't you always say that you can't do anything unless it's in the covenants?




Come on, you are just being silly.

The U.S. flag means the U.S. flag; not anything so long as it has thirteen striprs and fifty white starts on a blue background. You cannot fly a pair of underwear with a flag design and a unicorn on it and say, "It's a US flag!" You would get laughed out of any court.

I find it difficult to believe you don't know this, and are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
AugustinD


Posts:1695


09/07/2021 8:28 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 8:18 AM
The CCRs would give Kerry's association the right to enforce either the CCRs or the rules, but there is no rule in either the CCRs or the rules addressing the issue.
I would bet there is a CCR, rule or both addressing what folks may put on their balconies.
So, if the GM sent a courtesy letter, what violation of the CCRs or Rules Handbook was the owner guilty of? Don't you always say that you can't do anything unless it's in the covenants?
Asked and answered.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/07/2021 8:34 AM  
David

I wouldn't get laughed out of court. The opinion of the attorney I posted proves it. He was also my association's legal counsel.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/07/2021 8:35 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/07/2021 8:28 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 8:18 AM
The CCRs would give Kerry's association the right to enforce either the CCRs or the rules, but there is no rule in either the CCRs or the rules addressing the issue.
I would bet there is a CCR, rule or both addressing what folks may put on their balconies.
So, if the GM sent a courtesy letter, what violation of the CCRs or Rules Handbook was the owner guilty of? Don't you always say that you can't do anything unless it's in the covenants?
Asked and answered.



Have Kerry send you a copy of her CCRs and Rules. There ain't anything.
AugustinD


Posts:1695


09/07/2021 8:51 AM  
From the CC&Rs and Rules:

Use of Exclusive Use Areas
... Improvements including, without limitation, plants, fountains and other landscaping features within the Exclusive Use Patio Area, Exclusive Use Balcony Area and/or Exclusive Use Deck Areas shall be subject to the Project Handbook and the Architectural Guidelines and any Improvements within such areas shall require the approval of the Architectural Committee. ...

Patios/Balconies/Decks
...
The Board of Directors has the authority to require Owners to restore the attractive appearance to
these areas. ...
DavidG45
(Delaware)

Posts:141


09/07/2021 9:06 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 8:34 AM
David

I wouldn't get laughed out of court. The opinion of the attorney I posted proves it. He was also my association's legal counsel.




Well, I would suggest you are making that up. It's pretty easy to do here.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/07/2021 9:14 AM  
For the archives:

In Kerry's CCRs and Rules Handbook.

There are two references to flag(s) in the Rules, on page 11 and page 28

There are two references to flag(s) in the CCRs, on page 14 and page 64.

Let's say, for argument's sake, this is just a non-commercial flag. Unless an association somehow has restrictions, why can't it be flown?

I am a board member and went to UCLA, so do I ban all USC flags? Two topics at a dinner table are taboo, politics and religion.

If I were the GM, unless I had a violation to cite, I would not be writing that courtesy letter to the homeowner.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/07/2021 9:27 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/07/2021 8:51 AM
From the CC&Rs and Rules:

Use of Exclusive Use Areas
... Improvements including, without limitation, plants, fountains and other landscaping features within the Exclusive Use Patio Area, Exclusive Use Balcony Area and/or Exclusive Use Deck Areas shall be subject to the Project Handbook and the Architectural Guidelines and any Improvements within such areas shall require the approval of the Architectural Committee. ...

Patios/Balconies/Decks
...
The Board of Directors has the authority to require Owners to restore the attractive appearance to
these areas. ...



?????????????
AugustinD


Posts:1695


09/07/2021 9:30 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 9:14 AM
There are two references to flag(s) in the CCRs, on page 14
You're a prince for pointing this out. From the CC&Rs:

SIGNAGE.
The term "Signage" refers to any signage, billboards, posters, banners, flags or any other signage medium of any type or kind.


Signs.
No signs or other advertising device whatsoever, including without limitation, commercial, political and similar signs, shall be erected or maintained within the Project except: (a) Such signs as may be required by legal proceedings (b) Residential identification signs, subject to the approval of the Architectural Committee as to suitability... "
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/07/2021 9:43 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/07/2021 9:30 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 9:14 AM
There are two references to flag(s) in the CCRs, on page 14
You're a prince for pointing this out. From the CC&Rs:

SIGNAGE.
The term "Signage" refers to any signage, billboards, posters, banners, flags or any other signage medium of any type or kind.


Signs.
No signs or other advertising device whatsoever, including without limitation, commercial, political and similar signs, shall be erected or maintained within the Project except: (a) Such signs as may be required by legal proceedings (b) Residential identification signs, subject to the approval of the Architectural Committee as to suitability... "



Last I checked, a flag is NOT a sign. In addition, HR4 and Civil Code §4705 were enacted AFTER the CCRs were recorded.
AugustinD


Posts:1695


09/07/2021 9:59 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 9:43 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 09/07/2021 9:30 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 9:14 AM
There are two references to flag(s) in the CCRs, on page 14
You're a prince for pointing this out. From the CC&Rs:

SIGNAGE.
The term "Signage" refers to any signage, billboards, posters, banners, flags or any other signage medium of any type or kind.


Signs.
No signs or other advertising device whatsoever, including without limitation, commercial, political and similar signs, shall be erected or maintained within the Project except: (a) Such signs as may be required by legal proceedings (b) Residential identification signs, subject to the approval of the Architectural Committee as to suitability... "


Last I checked, a flag is NOT a sign.
For the archives, allow me to translate the MaxB4-ese above:
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 9:43 AM
Uncle!


Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 9:43 AM
In addition, HR4 and Civil Code §4705 were enacted AFTER the CCRs were recorded.
Uh huh. And nationwide the 1968 Fair Housing Act and its 1988 amendments (adding disability and familial status as protected classes) were enacted after the recording of many covenants prohibiting non-caucasians and children. Guess what? These covenants are not valid to the extent they discriminate against non-caucasians and families with children.
MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/07/2021 10:23 AM  
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/07/2021 9:06 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/07/2021 8:34 AM
David

I wouldn't get laughed out of court. The opinion of the attorney I posted proves it. He was also my association's legal counsel.




Well, I would suggest you are making that up. It's pretty easy to do here.



The law firm went by Adams Kesslers PLC back in 2014

Attachment: 197235010771.pdf

BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:1040


09/07/2021 5:32 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/06/2021 7:40 PM
Ben

You're going to have a lot of attorneys that will disagree with your interpretation.



I am absolutely sure that if my example went to court exactly half of the attorneys would agree with me and half would disagree. That is what attorneys do.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8620


09/07/2021 6:49 PM  
Max claims I wrote that the bogus US flag at my HOA "had a white cross, which wasn't mutilated." I actually wrote the cross was huge and "yellow." I did not write the cross was mutilated, I wrote that based on my citation of what Max provided, the U.S. FLAG was mutilated, and would have been with any other object pasted on it.

I also wrote that our CC&Rs were written before the CA & Fed. legislation of '02 & '06. In the hierarchy of documents, the latter supersede my HOA's docs, which as Augustin points out prohibit ALL flags. The '02 & '06 a HOAs must permit US flags on HOA exclusive use common areas. We comply. We would not have to list every possible OTHER kind of flag that one might want to fly, but cannot. Plain & simple, and others say it well, we know a Flag of the United States when we see it.

I had a choice to make: read US Code that Max supplied really really carefully, and sloppily pack for 2-week trip to Paris tomorrow. I chose to pack carefully and read sloppily the entire code. Max (or his wife) can tell us what I misread in direct, exact quotes.

I did notice this: “§8. Respect for flag…(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.” So, unicorns, daisies, skull & crossbones, Christian crosses show DISrespect for our nation's flag.

Some political thinkers of previous centuries have suggested that a nation can be a sacred object to its inhabitants. To summarize, nations, like religions, can arouse passion, devotion (patriotism), a sense of duty or ought, and a sense of membership. As with religion, nations have signs, slogans, symbols, music and holy days-holidays-to revivify national moments or events of heroism, tragedy and victory. In many nations their flag represents all that is best in its values. The flag helps "believers" to cohere in the same "faith" during difficult historical moments.

There is only one flag of the United States of America. This is not too different than the religions of Abraham: Islam, Judaism, Christianity. There is only one God. Idols are not permitted.

MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/07/2021 7:21 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/07/2021 6:49 PM
Max claims I wrote that the bogus US flag at my HOA "had a white cross, which wasn't mutilated." I actually wrote the cross was huge and "yellow." I did not write the cross was mutilated, I wrote that based on my citation of what Max provided, the U.S. FLAG was mutilated, and would have been with any other object pasted on it.

I also wrote that our CC&Rs were written before the CA & Fed. legislation of '02 & '06. In the hierarchy of documents, the latter supersede my HOA's docs, which as Augustin points out prohibit ALL flags. The '02 & '06 a HOAs must permit US flags on HOA exclusive use common areas. We comply. We would not have to list every possible OTHER kind of flag that one might want to fly, but cannot. Plain & simple, and others say it well, we know a Flag of the United States when we see it.

I had a choice to make: read US Code that Max supplied really really carefully, and sloppily pack for 2-week trip to Paris tomorrow. I chose to pack carefully and read sloppily the entire code. Max (or his wife) can tell us what I misread in direct, exact quotes.

I did notice this: “§8. Respect for flag…(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.” So, unicorns, daisies, skull & crossbones, Christian crosses show DISrespect for our nation's flag.

Some political thinkers of previous centuries have suggested that a nation can be a sacred object to its inhabitants. To summarize, nations, like religions, can arouse passion, devotion (patriotism), a sense of duty or ought, and a sense of membership. As with religion, nations have signs, slogans, symbols, music and holy days-holidays-to revivify national moments or events of heroism, tragedy and victory. In many nations their flag represents all that is best in its values. The flag helps "believers" to cohere in the same "faith" during difficult historical moments.

There is only one flag of the United States of America. This is not too different than the religions of Abraham: Islam, Judaism, Christianity. There is only one God. Idols are not permitted.




You're a liar! The link I posted had a white cross, I never once said what the color of the cross was, and who give a flying fu$k!

I have no idea what the rest of the crap you rambled on was about.

Oh, BTW, the whole exercise was for naught. If you read David;s other post, he is the lone ranger as the developer is not enforcing the CCRs. What a shock!

MaxB4


Posts:1394


09/07/2021 7:26 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/07/2021 6:49 PM
Max claims I wrote that the bogus US flag at my HOA "had a white cross, which wasn't mutilated." I actually wrote the cross was huge and "yellow." I did not write the cross was mutilated, I wrote that based on my citation of what Max provided, the U.S. FLAG was mutilated, and would have been with any other object pasted on it.

I also wrote that our CC&Rs were written before the CA & Fed. legislation of '02 & '06. In the hierarchy of documents, the latter supersede my HOA's docs, which as Augustin points out prohibit ALL flags. The '02 & '06 a HOAs must permit US flags on HOA exclusive use common areas. We comply. We would not have to list every possible OTHER kind of flag that one might want to fly, but cannot. Plain & simple, and others say it well, we know a Flag of the United States when we see it.

I had a choice to make: read US Code that Max supplied really really carefully, and sloppily pack for 2-week trip to Paris tomorrow. I chose to pack carefully and read sloppily the entire code. Max (or his wife) can tell us what I misread in direct, exact quotes.

I did notice this: “§8. Respect for flag…(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.” So, unicorns, daisies, skull & crossbones, Christian crosses show DISrespect for our nation's flag.

Some political thinkers of previous centuries have suggested that a nation can be a sacred object to its inhabitants. To summarize, nations, like religions, can arouse passion, devotion (patriotism), a sense of duty or ought, and a sense of membership. As with religion, nations have signs, slogans, symbols, music and holy days-holidays-to revivify national moments or events of heroism, tragedy and victory. In many nations their flag represents all that is best in its values. The flag helps "believers" to cohere in the same "faith" during difficult historical moments.

There is only one flag of the United States of America. This is not too different than the religions of Abraham: Islam, Judaism, Christianity. There is only one God. Idols are not permitted.




You're a moron, and I will not waste any more time on your antics!
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Page 2 of 2 << < 12



Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.







General Legal Notice:  The content of forum messages are from the posting member and have not been reviewed nor endorsed by HOATalk.com.  Messages posted by HOATalk or other members are for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice and do not constitute an attorney-client relationship.  Readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel.  HOATalk is not a licensed attorney, CPA, tax advisor, financial advisor or any other licensed professional.  HOATalk accepts ads from sponsors but does not verify sponsor qualifications nor endorse/guarantee any sponsor's product or service.
Legal Notice For Messages Posted by Sponsoring Attorneys: This message has been prepared by the sponsoring attorney for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Readers of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send any sponsoring attorney confidential information unless you speak with the sponsoring attorney or an attorney from the sponsoring attorney’s firm and get authorization to send that information to them. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in the firm of the sponsoring attorney. Sponsoring attorneys that post messages here are licensed to practice law in a specific state or states as indicated in their message signature or sponsor’s profile page. (NOTE: A ‘sponsoring attorney’ is an attorney that is a HOATalk.com official sponsor and is identified as such in the posted message or on our sponsor page.)

Copyright HOA Talk.com, A Service of Community123 LLC ( Homeowners Association Discussions )   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement