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Subject: HOA Board + Management Co. wantonly violate Bylaws, CC&Rs and State Law
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Author Messages
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 1:10 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 05/19/2016 1:05 PM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/19/2016 12:55 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 05/19/2016 12:25 PM
Troy

The real question is, what did you really expect to accomplish or achieve coming to this site. Many of us went through the very same thing as you, some much, much worst.




The answer is within the question and follow-up statement.

If many here claim to be past board members or are current ones, who as you clearly state have went through the "very same thing" as I and my fellow homeowners are doing; then would it not be logical to infer that those same people could lend some insight into the experience they had and what was effective in changing it...other than telling me to get on the board (that is NOT the correct answer in ALL cases)!?!



What I did and others here did was STEP UP to the plate and not rely on others to do the dirty work for us.

If, you say, getting on the Board is not the CORRECT answer, HOW DO YOU KNOW, until you tried. As the saying goes, shit or get off the pot!




It's called vicarious experience from other board members who left the table and crossed the street to my house asking for my help.

If they tried to do as you claim I should do and they got nowhere, what makes you think my banging my head against the wall, just as these previous board members have done, would make a difference whereas what I am doing as the watchdog IS MAKING A DIFFERENCE!!!
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11638


05/19/2016 1:16 PM  
17 years of banging your head against the wall must really hurt.
DonA2
(Arizona)

Posts:170


05/19/2016 1:32 PM  
Troy just doesn't get it and won't get it. I think he came here looking for validation and isn't finding it. He'll do things his way and the rest of us are wrong.

Good luck to you with your battle Troy, but you're going about it all wrong.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/19/2016 1:33 PM  
Troy,

One thing to keep in mind when reading these posts is that most, if not all, of the regular posters have had similar issues within their Associations. They have made changes from within and most have served, or are still serving, on their Board.

I do not recall if you indicated that you have served on an HOA or COA Board. Therefore, you may already know this, but I'll relate my story. When I was fighting for changes within my Association, I had attended meetings, did research and talked with others who served. I thought I knew what was going on within my Association and thought I understood methodology of our Association fairly well. As I posted earlier, I spent three years informing and educating the membership. At the end of 3 years, one board member chose not to run again.

I discovered, from the change in the Board, that because this member had served so long, he was seen by the other board members as the expert. Unfortunately, once he got the hang of things, he never kept up with changing laws and relied on his own experiences. Because he was seen as the expert, the rest of the Board deferred to his knowledge and (like many volunteers) didn't take the time to verify if it was right or wrong. It wasn't that he or the rest of the Board was being malicious, they were simply trying to live up to their commitments the best they could and as they thought was correct. However, because of my approach, the Board (having worked hard and volunteered time away from their family to do this work) became a bit defensive (as most humans become when challenged) as they were proud of the work they had been able to accomplish.

In year 4 I was elected to the Board. I was appointed as President because nobody else wanted the job. As I posted, I thought I had a good understanding of my Association. Boy was I wrong. That year, I obtained an education and was reminded that things look differently depending on your perspective. I have a lot of stories from that first year. It easiest to say that I didn't change anything I thought needed changing that year because there were so many other issues that needed addressed.

I believe, as I indicated in my initial post to you, others on this forum (in their own way) are trying to voice and illustrate how the presentation of your message may (when seen from a different perspective) be causing defensiveness in those who are currently in the position to make the decisions. They may be seeing the messenger and not the message.

That happened to me. That one individual who served on my Board and did contribute a lot and did the best he could, can only see me and not the message I try to deliver. Even after 8 years, when election time comes around, I know which ballot is theirs as the word NEVER is written next to my name.

I believe that you are now on the defensive on hearing the advice and opinions offered here. It's natural and proves you are human. I urge you to try and take a step back and try to see things from the perspective of those offering you their advice and opinions. Granted the methodology of delivering the message might be better (and this is what I believe you are trying to tell some posters as much as they are trying to tell you the same), but if you can get beyond the natural knee jerk reaction of defending the work you have done, I believe it will help you make changes more easily.

I know when I first came to this site, I also had Jon, Melissa and others call me out on various things. I had similar reactions you are having and became defensive. However, when I stepped back, and reread the posts from a different perspective, the advice I received on this site helped me make the changes I saw as needed within my Association. When I was elected to my Board, I learned that the perspective of those who have served on their boards (which I really didn't have until I served on mine) was invaluable. Could I have made changes within my Association without their input? I'd like to think so. However, it might not have been as easily done and I may have split the membership into factions by forcing them to take sides. Instead, because I changed the tone in my message, I was able to keep the membership (mostly) together and even obtained support for a 20% increase in assessments to fund our Reserves (as we had never had a reserve study done and the development was over 20 years old). However, that's another story.

Hope this helps,

Tim
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 1:49 PM  
Posted By DonA2 on 05/19/2016 1:32 PM
Troy just doesn't get it and won't get it. I think he came here looking for validation and isn't finding it. He'll do things his way and the rest of us are wrong.

Good luck to you with your battle Troy, but you're going about it all wrong.




If I have been going about it all wrong, how is it that I have been so successful in winning all the legal arguments and getting the Board/HOA to follow the governing documents and law through 2014?

I will win this next one just the same, oh, but wait...according to you I am going about it all wrong.

Well, if doing it wrong is getting it done and done right, then I am rather successful at it getting done right!
PitA


Posts:0


05/19/2016 1:49 PM  
Troy,

You state strongly that the BOD has consistently violated the Covenant to which you and they are BOTH parties.

? What does your attorney advise ?

? Have you filed suit in a court of law ?

If not, why not ?

Perchance then you could no longer whine, bit*h, or moan on this forum

TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 1:52 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 05/19/2016 1:33 PM
Troy,

One thing to keep in mind when reading these posts is that most, if not all, of the regular posters have had similar issues within their Associations. They have made changes from within and most have served, or are still serving, on their Board.

I do not recall if you indicated that you have served on an HOA or COA Board. Therefore, you may already know this, but I'll relate my story. When I was fighting for changes within my Association, I had attended meetings, did research and talked with others who served. I thought I knew what was going on within my Association and thought I understood methodology of our Association fairly well. As I posted earlier, I spent three years informing and educating the membership. At the end of 3 years, one board member chose not to run again.

I discovered, from the change in the Board, that because this member had served so long, he was seen by the other board members as the expert. Unfortunately, once he got the hang of things, he never kept up with changing laws and relied on his own experiences. Because he was seen as the expert, the rest of the Board deferred to his knowledge and (like many volunteers) didn't take the time to verify if it was right or wrong. It wasn't that he or the rest of the Board was being malicious, they were simply trying to live up to their commitments the best they could and as they thought was correct. However, because of my approach, the Board (having worked hard and volunteered time away from their family to do this work) became a bit defensive (as most humans become when challenged) as they were proud of the work they had been able to accomplish.

In year 4 I was elected to the Board. I was appointed as President because nobody else wanted the job. As I posted, I thought I had a good understanding of my Association. Boy was I wrong. That year, I obtained an education and was reminded that things look differently depending on your perspective. I have a lot of stories from that first year. It easiest to say that I didn't change anything I thought needed changing that year because there were so many other issues that needed addressed.

I believe, as I indicated in my initial post to you, others on this forum (in their own way) are trying to voice and illustrate how the presentation of your message may (when seen from a different perspective) be causing defensiveness in those who are currently in the position to make the decisions. They may be seeing the messenger and not the message.

That happened to me. That one individual who served on my Board and did contribute a lot and did the best he could, can only see me and not the message I try to deliver. Even after 8 years, when election time comes around, I know which ballot is theirs as the word NEVER is written next to my name.

I believe that you are now on the defensive on hearing the advice and opinions offered here. It's natural and proves you are human. I urge you to try and take a step back and try to see things from the perspective of those offering you their advice and opinions. Granted the methodology of delivering the message might be better (and this is what I believe you are trying to tell some posters as much as they are trying to tell you the same), but if you can get beyond the natural knee jerk reaction of defending the work you have done, I believe it will help you make changes more easily.

I know when I first came to this site, I also had Jon, Melissa and others call me out on various things. I had similar reactions you are having and became defensive. However, when I stepped back, and reread the posts from a different perspective, the advice I received on this site helped me make the changes I saw as needed within my Association. When I was elected to my Board, I learned that the perspective of those who have served on their boards (which I really didn't have until I served on mine) was invaluable. Could I have made changes within my Association without their input? I'd like to think so. However, it might not have been as easily done and I may have split the membership into factions by forcing them to take sides. Instead, because I changed the tone in my message, I was able to keep the membership (mostly) together and even obtained support for a 20% increase in assessments to fund our Reserves (as we had never had a reserve study done and the development was over 20 years old). However, that's another story.

Hope this helps,

Tim




To EVERY person who has commented asking what I hoped/expected to get coming to this forum...look no further than Tim's reply above (as well as his first reply on page one of this discussion thread).

He gets it, he is helpful, and he is clearly far more interested in fostering a positive discussion in the exchange of ideas and sharing his experiences in a constructive manner than the lot of you who have replied in a grossly negative and demeaning manner.

Thank you Tim, your comment was well said and well taken. Much appreciated.

Troy
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 1:56 PM  
Posted By PitA on 05/19/2016 1:49 PM
Troy,

You state strongly that the BOD has consistently violated the Covenant to which you and they are BOTH parties.

? What does your attorney advise ?




Every attorney I have consulted lacks the knowledge and experience to tackle this. All they focus on is damages ($).

I am my own attorney, and I've been successful in winning every legal battle I've taken the Board/HOA to task on.


? Have you filed suit in a court of law ?

If not, why not ?




I've been working on it, but it takes time when one has a full-time job. I will soon be retiring and will have the time to complete the complaint I already started drafting.

In the meantime, I am waiting on their response to participate in mediation, a statutory requirement before I can file the suit.
DonA2
(Arizona)

Posts:170


05/19/2016 2:05 PM  
Every attorney you have consulted lacks knowledge...Did they? Or didn't you like what they told you? Maybe you went to the wrong attorneys?

Plenty here have tried to help. Plenty have offered advice. But you know best. Good luck with your future battles.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 2:26 PM  
Posted By DonA2 on 05/19/2016 2:05 PM
Every attorney you have consulted lacks knowledge...Did they? Or didn't you like what they told you? Maybe you went to the wrong attorneys?

Plenty here have tried to help. Plenty have offered advice. But you know best. Good luck with your future battles.




I sought the services of the State Bar Lawyer Referral Service...and each time they sent me to someone who had the deer in the headlight look, and another who didn't even know what I was talking about when it came to CC&Rs and the Planned Community Act. All he wanted to know was the $ he could go after. So yeah, the State sent me to the wrong attorneys.

The only person really truly giving legitimate advice and sharing their experience here has been Tim, most of all. The rest, advice, yeah, not so much (rather, not at all).
JonD1


Posts:0


05/19/2016 2:36 PM  
"Every attorney I have consulted lacks the knowledge and experience to tackle this. All they focus on is damages ($).

I am my own attorney, and I've been successful in winning every legal battle I've taken the Board/HOA to task on. "

Boy.... Now that's quite a mouth full! The lawyers who went to law school and passed the bar just can't handle this but you can. Simply amazing. And my guess you don't hold a law degree. Makes sense.....

So to be fair you view yourself as a "wooden nickel" lawyer who has waited two years to file your action that you posted on your blog back in 2014?

My guess the DOJ has a few more pressing issues than your conflict with an HOA board. But let us know when that comes to pass.

Lots of time, energy, and effort doing it your way. Guess I can figure out how you will be spending your time in retirement......

TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 3:05 PM  
Posted By JonD1 on 05/19/2016 2:36 PM
"Every attorney I have consulted lacks the knowledge and experience to tackle this. All they focus on is damages ($).

I am my own attorney, and I've been successful in winning every legal battle I've taken the Board/HOA to task on. "

Boy.... Now that's quite a mouth full! The lawyers who went to law school and passed the bar just can't handle this but you can. Simply amazing. And my guess you don't hold a law degree. Makes sense.....




One not need a law degree to best a lawyer with one.

And yes, there are attorneys fresh out of school, passing the bar that simply LACK the knowledge and experience to handle this,.

My legal experience includes but not is limited to the following: US Army Criminal Investigative Division - Drug Suppression Team, US Army Provost Marshals Office - Juvenile Investigations; self-advocate against VA to obtain disability compensation benefits at 100% P&T; advocating for Vietnam, Korean War, and OEF/OIF veterans - successfully; paralegal degree; criminology/criminal justice degree; 5 years background investigator county sheriff; and 3 years legal assistant district attorneys office. Oh, and 17 years fighting and wining every legal battle against my HOA. So yeah, I can handle it better than the lawyers I was referred to.


So to be fair you view yourself as a "wooden nickel" lawyer who has waited two years to file your action that you posted on your blog back in 2014?




Had you followed along and paid attention in this discussion, you would have read the reason why that action had yet to be filed. There is a purpose to every action or inaction. Try keeping up, repeating myself gets old.

My guess the DOJ has a few more pressing issues than your conflict with an HOA board. But let us know when that comes to pass.

Lots of time, energy, and effort doing it your way. Guess I can figure out how you will be spending your time in retirement......





No, you cannot guess how I will be spending my time in retirement. You do not know me personally, which includes my goals and ambitions to accomplish during retirement. Any such guesses would be wholly ignorant unsubstantiated negatively subjective opinion(s).
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/19/2016 4:22 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/19/2016 2:26 PM


The only person really truly giving legitimate advice and sharing their experience here has been Tim, most of all. The rest, advice, yeah, not so much (rather, not at all).




Troy,

Thank you for the kind words.

I disagree with your statement that others have not offered good advice or shared their experience.
They are offering you advice in their way (which is what I tried to point out in my previous posting).
I wish you could see that, as I think it would help you as much as it helped me when I first came to this forum.

BanksS


Posts:0


05/19/2016 5:15 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 05/19/2016 4:22 PM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/19/2016 2:26 PM


The only person really truly giving legitimate advice and sharing their experience here has been Tim, most of all. The rest, advice, yeah, not so much (rather, not at all).




Troy,

Thank you for the kind words.

I disagree with your statement that others have not offered good advice or shared their experience.
They are offering you advice in their way (which is what I tried to point out in my previous posting).
I wish you could see that, as I think it would help you as much as it helped me when I first came to this forum.




Ahh Tim as you know I have been critical of the tone some use on this site and I can understand Troy's frustration when posters come across as condescending. To be sure, written communication has its limitations as one cannot hear the tone of one's voice or facial expressions.

Some of you may disagree with Troy's method of bringing about changes in his HOA but I commend his persistence and it appears that some of his fellow neighbors appreciate his method of bringing about these changes. One does not have to serve on the BOD to be of service to the neighborhood.
JonD1


Posts:0


05/19/2016 5:15 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/19/2016 3:05 PM
Posted By JonD1 on 05/19/2016 2:36 PM
"Every attorney I have consulted lacks the knowledge and experience to tackle this. All they focus on is damages ($).

I am my own attorney, and I've been successful in winning every legal battle I've taken the Board/HOA to task on. "

Boy.... Now that's quite a mouth full! The lawyers who went to law school and passed the bar just can't handle this but you can. Simply amazing. And my guess you don't hold a law degree. Makes sense.....




One not need a law degree to best a lawyer with one.

And yes, there are attorneys fresh out of school, passing the bar that simply LACK the knowledge and experience to handle this,.

My legal experience includes but not is limited to the following: US Army Criminal Investigative Division - Drug Suppression Team, US Army Provost Marshals Office - Juvenile Investigations; self-advocate against VA to obtain disability compensation benefits at 100% P&T; advocating for Vietnam, Korean War, and OEF/OIF veterans - successfully; paralegal degree; criminology/criminal justice degree; 5 years background investigator county sheriff; and 3 years legal assistant district attorneys office. Oh, and 17 years fighting and wining every legal battle against my HOA. So yeah, I can handle it better than the lawyers I was referred to.


So to be fair you view yourself as a "wooden nickel" lawyer who has waited two years to file your action that you posted on your blog back in 2014?




Had you followed along and paid attention in this discussion, you would have read the reason why that action had yet to be filed. There is a purpose to every action or inaction. Try keeping up, repeating myself gets old.

My guess the DOJ has a few more pressing issues than your conflict with an HOA board. But let us know when that comes to pass.

Lots of time, energy, and effort doing it your way. Guess I can figure out how you will be spending your time in retirement......





No, you cannot guess how I will be spending my time in retirement. You do not know me personally, which includes my goals and ambitions to accomplish during retirement. Any such guesses would be wholly ignorant unsubstantiated negatively subjective opinion(s).





As I have suggested many times in order to give yourself the best chance in a legal matter you better find a lawyer that specializes in HOA matters.
You Troy have no such knowledge.

Nor do you hold a law degree. And the 17 years of claimed winning you like to wave around has brought you where? Perhaps you have won a few battles but in the end lost the war.

You come across as being just a little full of yourself. Seems no one matches your level of knowledge in your mind. And you have reached the level of legal assistant in the DA's office knowing as much as you do. No doubt you run circles around the ADAs and probably the DA themselves. Hard to believe you are not head at the DOJ!

Try to keep up..... Well actually you bore me. Not really important what it is you have devoted 17 years of your life to. Not impressed with the inactive blog.
Not blown away by your ability to create a Facebook page. Not certain your filing with the DOJ or HUD will ever see the light of day.

Keep up..... I'm way ahead of you almighty one. I took on our board. Removed them all. Fired the MC. AND prevailed in a few legal matters along the way.
After 17 years of supposed victories you're still floundering around. But in a brilliant way!

You might have learned something here if you bothered to shut your yap, listen and consider. Rather than pounding on your chest trying to convince us your record has resulted in some great accomplishments.
My guess you couldn't get yourself elected to the board. But let's stick with the story that is your decision.

Retirement for you my guess patting yourself on the back some more. Telling yourself no one is as bright as you are. And coming to believe that this brilliant person was able to climb all the way up to "legal assistant" while everyone should have known you were the smartest person in any room.

The facts don't jive with your fairy tale.
I would venture a guess and conclude the members of your board who should have been elected by a vote and the majority of homeowners in your community see you in a completely different light. Not the Savior but rather a PITA.
You are a legend in your own mind. But only in YOUR mind.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 5:44 PM  
Posted By BanksS on 05/19/2016 5:15 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 05/19/2016 4:22 PM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/19/2016 2:26 PM


The only person really truly giving legitimate advice and sharing their experience here has been Tim, most of all. The rest, advice, yeah, not so much (rather, not at all).




Troy,

Thank you for the kind words.

I disagree with your statement that others have not offered good advice or shared their experience.
They are offering you advice in their way (which is what I tried to point out in my previous posting).
I wish you could see that, as I think it would help you as much as it helped me when I first came to this forum.




Ahh Tim as you know I have been critical of the tone some use on this site and I can understand Troy's frustration when posters come across as condescending. To be sure, written communication has its limitations as one cannot hear the tone of one's voice or facial expressions.

Some of you may disagree with Troy's method of bringing about changes in his HOA but I commend his persistence and it appears that some of his fellow neighbors appreciate his method of bringing about these changes. One does not have to serve on the BOD to be of service to the neighborhood.




THANK YOU BANKS! Glad to see someone else sees what has been going on herein.
Much appreciated.

Troy
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 5:46 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 05/19/2016 4:22 PM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/19/2016 2:26 PM


The only person really truly giving legitimate advice and sharing their experience here has been Tim, most of all. The rest, advice, yeah, not so much (rather, not at all).




Troy,

Thank you for the kind words.

I disagree with your statement that others have not offered good advice or shared their experience.
They are offering you advice in their way (which is what I tried to point out in my previous posting).
I wish you could see that, as I think it would help you as much as it helped me when I first came to this forum.





Would you call JonD or Melissa's comments, among others, as offering "good advice"?

Look at his latest response below your and above this one.

That is hardly "good" let alone constructive criticism.

Banks called it like it is, the truth.

On that note, Sir, I will have to respectfully agree to disagree on your position that others have offered good advice and shared their experience in a constructive manner.

Troy
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


05/19/2016 7:14 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/19/2016 1:08 PM
For those of you who think / actually believe, that the DOJ does not get involved in HOA issues:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-reaches-settlement-homeowners-association-and-property-management-company

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-fair-housing-lawsuit-against-florida-homeowners-association-and (we've had this problem in the past in our HOA)

http://www.kentucky.com/news/state/kentucky/article44542995.html

A simple google search yields plenty case examples.

HUD gets involved in HOA matters just the same:

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/tennessee-hoa-pays-156000-to-settle-disability-discrimination-lawsuit-052715.html

I'm not going to a superfluous amount of URLs to show that those of you with the subjective opinion that DOJ, HUD or Court that as the proper venue to get involved in HOA matters will do nothing for me and my fellow homeowners are flat out clearly mistaken.



Troy,
I never said that the DOJ and HUD don't get involved in HOA issues. What I said was that they don't get involved in HOA issues like the ones you complain about.

One DOJ case you cited involved occupancy limits that discriminated against families with children.

The other DOJ case you cited involved discrimination against a family who built a therapeutic playhouse for their child with cerebral palsy.

The HUD case you cited involved discrimination against a family that was barred from building a therapeutic sunroom for their two children with downs syndrome.

So yes, both the DOJ and HUD take action on HOA matters - but ALL of the cases you provided were about DISCRIMINATORY RESTRICTIONS. Nothing you have complained about is comparable to the real cases that these agencies actually take on.

Once again, I challenge you to provide a case like your own that the DOJ or HUD have taken on. I doubt you can find one.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 8:06 PM  
Hmmm...interesting it took this long for an admin to censor an obnoxious poster bent on personally attacking me and not being a part of the solution here (providing thoughtful feedback like Tim and BankS has).
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 8:06 PM  
Posted By NpS on 05/19/2016 7:14 PM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/19/2016 1:08 PM
For those of you who think / actually believe, that the DOJ does not get involved in HOA issues:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-reaches-settlement-homeowners-association-and-property-management-company

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-fair-housing-lawsuit-against-florida-homeowners-association-and (we've had this problem in the past in our HOA)

http://www.kentucky.com/news/state/kentucky/article44542995.html

A simple google search yields plenty case examples.

HUD gets involved in HOA matters just the same:

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/tennessee-hoa-pays-156000-to-settle-disability-discrimination-lawsuit-052715.html

I'm not going to a superfluous amount of URLs to show that those of you with the subjective opinion that DOJ, HUD or Court that as the proper venue to get involved in HOA matters will do nothing for me and my fellow homeowners are flat out clearly mistaken.



Troy,
I never said that the DOJ and HUD don't get involved in HOA issues. What I said was that they don't get involved in HOA issues like the ones you complain about.

One DOJ case you cited involved occupancy limits that discriminated against families with children.

The other DOJ case you cited involved discrimination against a family who built a therapeutic playhouse for their child with cerebral palsy.

The HUD case you cited involved discrimination against a family that was barred from building a therapeutic sunroom for their two children with downs syndrome.

So yes, both the DOJ and HUD take action on HOA matters - but ALL of the cases you provided were about DISCRIMINATORY RESTRICTIONS. Nothing you have complained about is comparable to the real cases that these agencies actually take on.

Once again, I challenge you to provide a case like your own that the DOJ or HUD have taken on. I doubt you can find one.




If I can Google, you can Google. I am NOT going to do YOUR work for YOU!
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/19/2016 8:16 PM  
All of you dissenting individuals with an attitude towards me would learn VERY WELL from Tim and BankS responses.

Both provided thoughtful, courteous, and accurate feedback...the kind I sought coming here; but I admit it is of no surprise that I would receive more of an obnoxious condescending and patronizing response from the lot of the members here who chose to respond.

Does not speak well for this form that 2 out of over a dozen members were respectful while the lot of you were b>DISRESPECTFUL!!!!

What does that say about this forum?

Not much in the positive realm.

I sincerely appreciate Tim and BankS for their replies.

They understood my plight and the need for thoughtful feedback, whereas the rest of you replying in this thread, by your own words and obvious attitude displayed therein DID NOT! To the latter, you are a part of the problem many have with HOAs and their Board of Directors. Moreover, you are committing a disservice to this forum, and are an apparent embarrassment that would discourage anyone else for participating.

I, however, will not be dismayed by your ignorance and negative attacks. I will stay as a homeowner and share my knowledge and experience with others asking questions in a far more positive and constructive manner than the lot of you have shown me.

And for the record, I fault none of you for your negative responses...I expected it.

Thank you for this initial journey, I will be back for other threads.

This one I consider closed because far too many members are on the offensive being jerks than productive to the discussion. It also proves to me the reason why joining my board would be a waste of my time.

Sincerely,

Troy Spurlock
(___) WatchDog
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


05/19/2016 8:25 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/19/2016 8:06 PM
Posted By NpS on 05/19/2016 7:14 PM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/19/2016 1:08 PM
For those of you who think / actually believe, that the DOJ does not get involved in HOA issues:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-reaches-settlement-homeowners-association-and-property-management-company

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-fair-housing-lawsuit-against-florida-homeowners-association-and (we've had this problem in the past in our HOA)

http://www.kentucky.com/news/state/kentucky/article44542995.html

A simple google search yields plenty case examples.

HUD gets involved in HOA matters just the same:

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/tennessee-hoa-pays-156000-to-settle-disability-discrimination-lawsuit-052715.html

I'm not going to a superfluous amount of URLs to show that those of you with the subjective opinion that DOJ, HUD or Court that as the proper venue to get involved in HOA matters will do nothing for me and my fellow homeowners are flat out clearly mistaken.



Troy,
I never said that the DOJ and HUD don't get involved in HOA issues. What I said was that they don't get involved in HOA issues like the ones you complain about.

One DOJ case you cited involved occupancy limits that discriminated against families with children.

The other DOJ case you cited involved discrimination against a family who built a therapeutic playhouse for their child with cerebral palsy.

The HUD case you cited involved discrimination against a family that was barred from building a therapeutic sunroom for their two children with downs syndrome.

So yes, both the DOJ and HUD take action on HOA matters - but ALL of the cases you provided were about DISCRIMINATORY RESTRICTIONS. Nothing you have complained about is comparable to the real cases that these agencies actually take on.

Once again, I challenge you to provide a case like your own that the DOJ or HUD have taken on. I doubt you can find one.


If I can Google, you can Google. I am NOT going to do YOUR work for YOU!


"Once again, I challenge you to provide a case like your own that the DOJ or HUD have taken on. I doubt you can find one."

Your attempts at deflection don't impress me.

The cases you presented to support your argument the first time are factually and legally unrelated to your situation.

I'm giving you a second chance. Show me that you can find a case like yours that the DOJ or HUD has supported. And if you can't, then stop finding fault with me for disagreeing with you.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


05/19/2016 9:09 PM  
Posted By BanksS on 05/19/2016 5:15 PM
Some of you may disagree with Troy's method of bringing about changes in his HOA but I commend his persistence and it appears that some of his fellow neighbors appreciate his method of bringing about these changes. One does not have to serve on the BOD to be of service to the neighborhood.

Banks
Twice I have attempted to engage Troy in a dialog on what I consider to be the biggest problem in his community.

1/3 of the homeowners in Troy's development are not part of the HOA. The other 2/3 are obligated to pay dues and comply with HOA CC&Rs.

Dissent and antagonism must run high in such an environment. So I invited Troy to discuss that problem without finding fault with the board, the management company, or the lawyer - none of whom were responsible for creating the 1/3 - 2/3 rift.

On both occasions, Troy chose to find fault with me for something else I said that irked him. He never engaged in any meaningful discussion on this problem that his HOA experiences and IMO is a root cause of many of the problems in his community.

While I can understand Troy's ability to gather support for his dissenting opinions, I don't find that surprising - not because of anything that Troy did - but because there's a 2/3 - 1/3 rift that is a huge problem.

Maybe you can convince Troy that this a very important issue for his community. So far I've failed to engage him on the topic.





Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8707


05/19/2016 10:00 PM  
I don't have the rhetorical tools to convince Troy of the problem with this issue 2/3-/13 issue.But I think you spelled it out repesctably, NpS.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/20/2016 4:30 AM  
Posted By NpS on 05/19/2016 9:09 PM
Posted By BanksS on 05/19/2016 5:15 PM
Some of you may disagree with Troy's method of bringing about changes in his HOA but I commend his persistence and it appears that some of his fellow neighbors appreciate his method of bringing about these changes. One does not have to serve on the BOD to be of service to the neighborhood.

Banks
Twice I have attempted to engage Troy in a dialog on what I consider to be the biggest problem in his community.

1/3 of the homeowners in Troy's development are not part of the HOA. The other 2/3 are obligated to pay dues and comply with HOA CC&Rs.

Dissent and antagonism must run high in such an environment. So I invited Troy to discuss that problem without finding fault with the board, the management company, or the lawyer - none of whom were responsible for creating the 1/3 - 2/3 rift.

On both occasions, Troy chose to find fault with me for something else I said that irked him. He never engaged in any meaningful discussion on this problem that his HOA experiences and IMO is a root cause of many of the problems in his community.

While I can understand Troy's ability to gather support for his dissenting opinions, I don't find that surprising - not because of anything that Troy did - but because there's a 2/3 - 1/3 rift that is a huge problem.

Maybe you can convince Troy that this a very important issue for his community. So far I've failed to engage him on the topic.





What a fabrication of the truth (i.e. Liar!)!!!!

I agreed with this point, then you said fine let's discuss 2-9 of your points, which I did engage that "dialogue" with you.

Nice try to save face with BankS, but our "dialogue" and my agreement with you main point is here for all to see.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/20/2016 4:35 AM  
The 2/3 a 1/3 point brought up really isn't the main "rift" in our HOA. Don't get me wrong, it is a sour point that is brought up often, but the REAL issue that all homeowners in my HOA have is the out of control Board of Directors, inept management company, and ineffective law firm on retainer; all of whom wantonly violate the governing documents and the law, period.
PitA


Posts:0


05/20/2016 5:25 AM  
As the tune goes,


...the windmills of my mind... .



need ..... more ..... pot ..... sooooooooon
BanksS


Posts:0


05/20/2016 5:29 AM  
Troy,

I have been coming to this site for about 4 years now and when I first posted I was on the receiving end of some of the same rhetoric that you are experiencing. I understand your frustration but....I learned that there are a lot of very smart and knowledgable folks who post to this site. You will soon learn who is receptive to meaningful and insightful discussion and those who just write paragraph after paragraph of meaningless vocabulary. Believe it or not, you might actually learn something from those posts if you can get past the insults that come along with the message. I certainly don't condone that kind of behavior but that is the nature of on-line forums such as this. If you stick around, you will see that most posters are respectful and helpful. Every now and then some step over the line but not often.



ND
(PA)

Posts:637


05/20/2016 6:01 AM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/20/2016 4:35 AM
The 2/3 a 1/3 point brought up really isn't the main "rift" in our HOA. Don't get me wrong, it is a sour point that is brought up often, but the REAL issue that all homeowners in my HOA have is the out of control Board of Directors, inept management company, and ineffective law firm on retainer; all of whom wantonly violate the governing documents and the law, period.




If all homeowners in your HOA have the same issue with the out of control Board, inept Management, and ineffective Law Firm, then there is absolutely nothing standing in the way of ousting the existing Board at the next election (or sooner with a petition and recall) and replacing them with a handful of people who support your views. At that point, with Board majority or complete Board takeover, it would be simple to make all the necessary changes . . . new Board, new Management, new Lawyer . . . no more wanton violation of governing docs and law.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/20/2016 6:20 AM  
Posted By ND on 05/20/2016 6:01 AM

If all homeowners in your HOA have the same issue with the out of control Board, inept Management, and ineffective Law Firm, then there is absolutely nothing standing in the way of ousting the existing Board at the next election (or sooner with a petition and recall) and replacing them with a handful of people who support your views. At that point, with Board majority or complete Board takeover, it would be simple to make all the necessary changes . . . new Board, new Management, new Lawyer . . . no more wanton violation of governing docs and law.




However that also takes individuals willing to serve to make those changes.

If those who want change won't step up to serve, then the Association is stuck with those who are willing to step up.

If those who step up are constantly questioned (regardless of the reason behind the questions) those individuals might not be willing to serve again or, worse, might simply resign.


ND
(PA)

Posts:637


05/20/2016 6:59 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 05/20/2016 6:20 AM
Posted By ND on 05/20/2016 6:01 AM
If all homeowners in your HOA have the same issue with the out of control Board, inept Management, and ineffective Law Firm, then there is absolutely nothing standing in the way of ousting the existing Board at the next election (or sooner with a petition and recall) and replacing them with a handful of people who support your views. At that point, with Board majority or complete Board takeover, it would be simple to make all the necessary changes . . . new Board, new Management, new Lawyer . . . no more wanton violation of governing docs and law.


However that also takes individuals willing to serve to make those changes.

If those who want change won't step up to serve, then the Association is stuck with those who are willing to step up.

If those who step up are constantly questioned (regardless of the reason behind the questions) those individuals might not be willing to serve again or, worse, might simply resign.




Completely agree. My point is that in this case, the claim being made is that ALL homeowners have the same issue with the existing Board, Management, and Lawyer. With this being the case, if you can't find enough people to step up and join, then you're just not trying hard enough. Since ALL homeowners disagree with how an extreme minority of homeowners are running the Board, then replacing them with a new group that will agree and do things the proper way should be simple.

As Troy himself mentioned, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate" . . . or for those less nerdy. . . If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


05/20/2016 7:49 AM  
I am just going to sit back on Monday morning in my lounging chair and talk about the game from Sunday... I might make quarterback if I keep watching the game!


Former HOA President
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/20/2016 8:17 AM  
Posted By ND on 05/20/2016 6:01 AM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/20/2016 4:35 AM
The 2/3 a 1/3 point brought up really isn't the main "rift" in our HOA. Don't get me wrong, it is a sour point that is brought up often, but the REAL issue that all homeowners in my HOA have is the out of control Board of Directors, inept management company, and ineffective law firm on retainer; all of whom wantonly violate the governing documents and the law, period.




If all homeowners in your HOA have the same issue with the out of control Board, inept Management, and ineffective Law Firm, then there is absolutely nothing standing in the way of ousting the existing Board at the next election (or sooner with a petition and recall) and replacing them with a handful of people who support your views. At that point, with Board majority or complete Board takeover, it would be simple to make all the necessary changes . . . new Board, new Management, new Lawyer . . . no more wanton violation of governing docs and law.




Kind of hard to accomplish with the Board cancels the Annual Meeting and moves it to a month outside the prescribed timeframe outlined in the Bylaws.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/20/2016 8:22 AM  
Posted By ND on 05/20/2016 6:59 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 05/20/2016 6:20 AM
Posted By ND on 05/20/2016 6:01 AM
If all homeowners in your HOA have the same issue with the out of control Board, inept Management, and ineffective Law Firm, then there is absolutely nothing standing in the way of ousting the existing Board at the next election (or sooner with a petition and recall) and replacing them with a handful of people who support your views. At that point, with Board majority or complete Board takeover, it would be simple to make all the necessary changes . . . new Board, new Management, new Lawyer . . . no more wanton violation of governing docs and law.


However that also takes individuals willing to serve to make those changes.

If those who want change won't step up to serve, then the Association is stuck with those who are willing to step up.

If those who step up are constantly questioned (regardless of the reason behind the questions) those individuals might not be willing to serve again or, worse, might simply resign.




Completely agree. My point is that in this case, the claim being made is that ALL homeowners have the same issue with the existing Board, Management, and Lawyer. With this being the case, if you can't find enough people to step up and join, then you're just not trying hard enough. Since ALL homeowners disagree with how an extreme minority of homeowners are running the Board, then replacing them with a new group that will agree and do things the proper way should be simple.

As Troy himself mentioned, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate" . . . or for those less nerdy. . . If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.




After 17+ years of one bad board after another, no one is interested in even having an HOA anymore.

It's been proven pointless by the consistent corruption and ineffectiveness of a handful of "volunteers," 3 management companies (1 resigning because of the corruption, infighting, and bad decisions), and obnoxious lawyers who are more bent on collecting fees upon fees than actually doing what's right.

If a couple dozen homeowners who "volunteered" cannot even read a simple document correctly, much less adhere to any of it, or take constructive criticism smartly from homeowners, there is no point in moving forward with another 6-7 who will just repeat history.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


05/20/2016 8:32 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/20/2016 7:49 AM
I am just going to sit back on Monday morning in my lounging chair and talk about the game from Sunday... I might make quarterback if I keep watching the game!

Hmm. It seems that Melissa and I have found another point of agreement. Surprise. Surprise.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


05/20/2016 8:49 AM  
NP..Troy bringing bad board members together since 1999.... LMAO!!!!

Former HOA President
BanksS


Posts:0


05/20/2016 9:48 AM  
Posted By NpS on 05/19/2016 9:09 PM
Posted By BanksS on 05/19/2016 5:15 PM
Some of you may disagree with Troy's method of bringing about changes in his HOA but I commend his persistence and it appears that some of his fellow neighbors appreciate his method of bringing about these changes. One does not have to serve on the BOD to be of service to the neighborhood.

Banks
Twice I have attempted to engage Troy in a dialog on what I consider to be the biggest problem in his community.

1/3 of the homeowners in Troy's development are not part of the HOA. The other 2/3 are obligated to pay dues and comply with HOA CC&Rs.

Dissent and antagonism must run high in such an environment. So I invited Troy to discuss that problem without finding fault with the board, the management company, or the lawyer - none of whom were responsible for creating the 1/3 - 2/3 rift.

On both occasions, Troy chose to find fault with me for something else I said that irked him. He never engaged in any meaningful discussion on this problem that his HOA experiences and IMO is a root cause of many of the problems in his community.

While I can understand Troy's ability to gather support for his dissenting opinions, I don't find that surprising - not because of anything that Troy did - but because there's a 2/3 - 1/3 rift that is a huge problem.

Maybe you can convince Troy that this a very important issue for his community. So far I've failed to engage him on the topic.







NpS,
I see your point and I wasn't referencing you in my post. I admire your approach to issues that come up on this site. Like asking questions, doing some research, and using some common sense when you post your responses. I have discovered that as summer approaches I often find myself engaging in some back and forth between JonD1 and myself that have really no value other than to admonish Jon and a few others about their posting behavior. My apologies folks. It is certainly not my responsibility to be the self-appointed moderator. With that being said, some posters could state their opinions with a more tactful and respectful tone. We all have unique experiences and issues to share as no two HOAs are alike. - Banks
MarkM31


Posts:0


05/20/2016 9:48 AM  
I forgot what the question was
ND
(PA)

Posts:637


05/20/2016 9:50 AM  
This saying comes to mind . . . the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

I see two options:
1) Continue along the path you've taken for the past many years. (Refer to the saying above.)
2) Establish a new Board from people who support you (since you won't step up), change the way things have been done, and work to disband the HOA altogether. Again, since ALL homeowners agree with your perspective/views/actions (except maybe the few Board Members that have stepped up over the years), this should be simple.
MarkM31


Posts:0


05/20/2016 9:50 AM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/18/2016 11:42 AM


Thoughts? Feedback?

Thank you!




I found it.

But when the OP gets thoughts and feedback he doesn't like he gets all agro.

So I guess I should rephrase my question as to what the point of this thread is?
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/20/2016 11:58 AM  
Posted By MarkM31 on 05/20/2016 9:50 AM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/18/2016 11:42 AM


Thoughts? Feedback?

Thank you!




I found it.

But when the OP gets thoughts and feedback he doesn't like he gets all agro.

So I guess I should rephrase my question as to what the point of this thread is?




Ad hominem, quoting out of context, and strawman fallacies.

All of which are counterproductive and serve no purpose, other than to waste space in this thread, like so many have.

***Thank you again Tim and BankS for your thoughtful and respectful feedback. Too bad the others are incapable of learning from your fine example***
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


05/20/2016 12:05 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/20/2016 11:58 AM
***Thank you again Tim and BankS for your thoughtful and respectful feedback. Too bad the others are incapable of learning from your fine example***

And your thoughts on ND's thoughtful and respectful feedback are?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KevinK7
(Florida)

Posts:1343


05/20/2016 12:39 PM  
I am probably one of the most anti-HOA people on this site. I don't necessarily see a problem with them but I have been blessed with experiencing 2 horrible "associations" that decided to invent the rules as they went along. It all strated when both acquired the same disreputable attorney who said things would be okay so long as there weren't a legal challenge because his actions were a gray area of the law. For a while (not 17 years though) I played the watchdog but the problem was the association always had more support, either through threat of legal action or promise of unrealistic benefits, sometimes custom rules for individuals to prevent them from fighting. I refused. I was not a member so joining the board was out of the question. I did not want to accept that liability and grant the association any legitimacy. I simply withdrew to focus solely on my property while trying to educate my neighbors.

It appears you are still involved as the watchdog. I believe associations need more than a watchdog but they will never happen. I think you have 3 options. 1, if possible withdraw membership and be left alone. 2, run for the board and work from within. You will be banging your head against a wall like you are now. The only difference would be you would be banging it on the interior wall where it would be louder. The 3rd is to keep doing what you are doing.

I guess there is a 4th option - stop complaining and let them self ruin. I don't advocate this because an association of morons is dangerous. Mine has no lien rights or legitimate jurisdiction yet they foreclose on properties and invent rules as they go along.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/20/2016 1:00 PM  
Posted By KevinK7 on 05/20/2016 12:39 PM
I am probably one of the most anti-HOA people on this site. I don't necessarily see a problem with them but I have been blessed with experiencing 2 horrible "associations" that decided to invent the rules as they went along. It all strated when both acquired the same disreputable attorney who said things would be okay so long as there weren't a legal challenge because his actions were a gray area of the law. For a while (not 17 years though) I played the watchdog but the problem was the association always had more support, either through threat of legal action or promise of unrealistic benefits, sometimes custom rules for individuals to prevent them from fighting. I refused. I was not a member so joining the board was out of the question. I did not want to accept that liability and grant the association any legitimacy. I simply withdrew to focus solely on my property while trying to educate my neighbors.

It appears you are still involved as the watchdog. I believe associations need more than a watchdog but they will never happen. I think you have 3 options. 1, if possible withdraw membership and be left alone. 2, run for the board and work from within. You will be banging your head against a wall like you are now. The only difference would be you would be banging it on the interior wall where it would be louder. The 3rd is to keep doing what you are doing.

I guess there is a 4th option - stop complaining and let them self ruin. I don't advocate this because an association of morons is dangerous. Mine has no lien rights or legitimate jurisdiction yet they foreclose on properties and invent rules as they go along.




Thank you for your feedback.

I just got word that the board (and management company along with an attorney, most likely) is willing to agree to mediation. That will be the week of June 6th, and so it begins.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/20/2016 1:23 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/20/2016 8:17 AM

Kind of hard to accomplish with the Board cancels the Annual Meeting and moves it to a month outside the prescribed timeframe outlined in the Bylaws.




Hard, but not impossible.

Easier if proxies are allowed.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/20/2016 1:36 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/20/2016 8:22 AM

If a couple dozen homeowners who "volunteered" cannot even read a simple document correctly, much less adhere to any of it, or take constructive criticism smartly from homeowners, there is no point in moving forward with another 6-7 who will just repeat history.




There is a point.

The point is to fix the problem.

Keep in mind that it's those who serve on the Board (not the MC and not the attorneys) who allow the things to happen. The Board makes the decisions and the MC and attorney perform based on those decisions.


If you can't find individuals willing to serve (and you are unwilling yourself), then you allow those who are willing to serve (regardless of their intent or ability) to continue the cycle. If that happens then, to be honest, the membership gets the leadership they deserve.


I understand it can be frustrating having to find those willing to serve to make things better.
What I don't understand is the pessimistic attitude of not wanting to serve so those problems are corrected and then try to have others (government agencies, courts, etc.) to force changes to correct the problems you have identified.

The root of your problem has been identified (those willing to serve not complying with applicable laws or the governing documents).

If you don't kill the roots (in this case, vote the bums out and replace them with those willing to comply with the law and documents) the problem will remain.

Yes, the solution is that simple.
I know implementing the solution isn't easy, but it can be done providing those who see the problems are willing to serve.

To turn your comment back on the issue (and to see it from a different perspective):

If there is nobody willing to serve who will comply with applicable laws and the governing documents, there is no point in moving forward and continue to expend energy, time and resources complaining. After all, history will just be repeated.


BobD4
(up north)

Posts:956


05/24/2016 10:47 AM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/18/2016
I have my HOA Board of directors scrambling because I've been constantly riding them to follow the governing documents and the law for the past 17+ years. . . . I've forced them to follow the governing documents and the law one time too many for them over the past 17 years . . . I recently enlisted the help of our county mediation council . . . our HOA Board of Directors are out of control, supported by an inept management company and ineffective counsel working for the so-called premiere law firm on HOA matters in our state. At this point waiting to hear back from mediation as to whether or not they will agree to it; if not, great, I already have a legal complaint in the works. Thoughts ? Feedback ? . .




TroyS2 Oregon : Lots of good advice above.

Your website indicates that your community is subject to Oregon Ch 94 Real Property Development/ Planned Communities ch 94.550 to 94.785 etc http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/chapter/94 ( “ Oregon Planned Community Act. 󞩭 c.782 §1]” You are aware its Ch 94.630 (4) requires ADR to be offered prior to litigating.

Whatever is going on it is ONLY you & other owners/management/association/ counsel who are in a position to know whether or not your complaints are factually or legally accurate or not. Maybe they are or are not.

1 – Pre-litigation hurdle / ADR to at least try to detoxify the situation & identify resolvable errors. The non-adjudicative mediation aspect depends on the willingness of the parties to show up with at least some degree of 'good faith'. Appreciation of alternative litigation costs & loss of confidentiality etc, don't hurt the mediation process. But power imbalances, stubborn defiance of law etc impair it. I presume there will be fees, possibly at the discretion of the ADR professional .

2 - You indicated paralegal skillsets in your background and must also know the range of further legal costs risked / potentially incurred by due process crusaders who are not even the targets of some sort of rule enforcement.

Several in my jurisdiction tried to keep the reform fight within summary process arenas /small claims courts etc below. eg for records access. Some of those however came out on the short end of $40 K- $50 K legal awards, and found themselves fighting restraint applications &/or vexatious litigant designations.

3 – The Bigger Picture ? Part of it very respectfully, should be the adversaries’ asking themselves as early as possible and with brutal honesty - if what has happened so far is the ultimate direction they want taken. Is more of the same going to move you ahead ?

Are others stepping forward to help or support ?

After 17 years, is this now a positive part of where you want to be personally ? Is it enhancing you commensurately with the anger & diversion of your energies ? Further, an individual dissenter ( or small group ) can readily be portrayed as community pariahs for generating legal defence fees.

Whatever, good luck with the ADR.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/24/2016 11:11 AM  
Posted By BobD4 on 05/24/2016 10:47 AM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/18/2016
I have my HOA Board of directors scrambling because I've been constantly riding them to follow the governing documents and the law for the past 17+ years. . . . I've forced them to follow the governing documents and the law one time too many for them over the past 17 years . . . I recently enlisted the help of our county mediation council . . . our HOA Board of Directors are out of control, supported by an inept management company and ineffective counsel working for the so-called premiere law firm on HOA matters in our state. At this point waiting to hear back from mediation as to whether or not they will agree to it; if not, great, I already have a legal complaint in the works. Thoughts ? Feedback ? . .




TroyS2 Oregon : Lots of good advice above.

Your website indicates that your community is subject to Oregon Ch 94 Real Property Development/ Planned Communities ch 94.550 to 94.785 etc http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/chapter/94 ( “ Oregon Planned Community Act. 󞩭 c.782 §1]” You are aware its Ch 94.630 (4) requires ADR to be offered prior to litigating.

Whatever is going on it is ONLY you & other owners/management/association/ counsel who are in a position to know whether or not your complaints are factually or legally accurate or not. Maybe they are or are not.

1 – Pre-litigation hurdle / ADR to at least try to detoxify the situation & identify resolvable errors. The non-adjudicative mediation aspect depends on the willingness of the parties to show up with at least some degree of 'good faith'. Appreciation of alternative litigation costs & loss of confidentiality etc, don't hurt the mediation process. But power imbalances, stubborn defiance of law etc impair it. I presume there will be fees, possibly at the discretion of the ADR professional .

2 - You indicated paralegal skillsets in your background and must also know the range of further legal costs risked / potentially incurred by due process crusaders who are not even the targets of some sort of rule enforcement.

Several in my jurisdiction tried to keep the reform fight within summary process arenas /small claims courts etc below. eg for records access. Some of those however came out on the short end of $40 K- $50 K legal awards, and found themselves fighting restraint applications &/or vexatious litigant designations.

3 – The Bigger Picture ? Part of it very respectfully, should be the adversaries’ asking themselves as early as possible and with brutal honesty - if what has happened so far is the ultimate direction they want taken. Is more of the same going to move you ahead ?

Are others stepping forward to help or support ?

After 17 years, is this now a positive part of where you want to be personally ? Is it enhancing you commensurately with the anger & diversion of your energies ? Further, an individual dissenter ( or small group ) can readily be portrayed as community pariahs for generating legal defence fees.

Whatever, good luck with the ADR.




Yes I know about ADR, and I've already contacted the county mediation team and they have reached out to the Board via the MC. They replied they wanted more information, so I prepared a 10 page report (could have been significantly longer) on the issues, facts, complain and underlining inquiry as to each complaint that I had. I am just waiting to hear from the mediator if the Board still agreed to meet at the table to discuss the matters addressed.

Yes, others are stepping up to offer their support/assistance in whatever I need.

The second half of #3 was nothing short of an ad hominem. And the only ones irritated with me is the Board members...as I get nothing short of positive feedback from my fellow homeowners who care enough about our plight to opine on the issues that I have addressed publicly.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/24/2016 11:26 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 05/20/2016 1:36 PM
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/20/2016 8:22 AM

If a couple dozen homeowners who "volunteered" cannot even read a simple document correctly, much less adhere to any of it, or take constructive criticism smartly from homeowners, there is no point in moving forward with another 6-7 who will just repeat history.




There is a point.

The point is to fix the problem.

Keep in mind that it's those who serve on the Board (not the MC and not the attorneys) who allow the things to happen. The Board makes the decisions and the MC and attorney perform based on those decisions.




Tim, no disrespect here, but you are stating the patently obvious here. The purpose of hiring a MC and having an attorney on retainer is for the MC to give proper guidance in the face of bad decisions by the Board, and the same by the attorneys if and when such a decision could become a legal issue for the HOA. They should not just blindly following the Board's decisions, to do such is a dereliction of their prescribed duties and responsibilities to the HOA and its homeowners.


If you can't find individuals willing to serve (and you are unwilling yourself), then you allow those who are willing to serve (regardless of their intent or ability) to continue the cycle. If that happens then, to be honest, the membership gets the leadership they deserve.


I understand it can be frustrating having to find those willing to serve to make things better.
What I don't understand is the pessimistic attitude of not wanting to serve so those problems are corrected and then try to have others (government agencies, courts, etc.) to force changes to correct the problems you have identified.




It is not a pessimistic attitude, but a pragmatic attitude towards Board members who have served up to and some beyond 10 years. They are rooted in their own problems and ignorance, defiant to defend said ignorance, clearly, and serving with them would serve no purpose other than to cause a migraine.


The root of your problem has been identified (those willing to serve not complying with applicable laws or the governing documents).

If you don't kill the roots (in this case, vote the bums out and replace them with those willing to comply with the law and documents) the problem will remain.




Complacency and apathy run rampant in my HOA. One homeowner wrote me stating as much, willing to pay her dues not caring where the money goes, because how the Board operates "doesn't affect my homeownership."

The only energy anyone has once the complacency and apathy is somewhat suppressed, is to terminate the CC&Rs and make every effort to get rid of the HOA altogether.



If there is nobody willing to serve who will comply with applicable laws and the governing documents, there is no point in moving forward and continue to expend energy, time and resources complaining. After all, history will just be repeated.





Yes there is a point in moving forward and expending energy, time and my resources making factually based legal arguments (they are not mere "complaints"), because what they do ultimately affects me as a homeowner.

If I had bowed to their illicit coercive threatening will back in 2006 and just paid the hundreds of dollars to have street trees planted, I would have been out of that money for no legitimate reason. I found a legitimate reason to not plant them and proved, legally, that the Board, MC and attorneys has no legal standing to make such a request regardless of what the CC&Rs state about the street trees being required on each lot.

The Board admitted by newsletter that the matter was the fault of the City for not enforcing its contract with the developer to have the trees planted before occupancy permits were issued. The declarant tried to write off its responsibility by passing the buck, literally, onto the homeowners to have the trees planted at the homeowners expense. That is illegal, an adhesion contractual term.

Notwithstanding, the underlining legal point that the Board, MC and attorneys failed to comprehend was the 1 year statute of limitations to take action on any identified deficiency. The Board knew 98 homes did not have street trees in 2004, while admitting it was the city's problem, not the homeowners, then readdressed the issue in 2005 (year that the statute of limitations on taking corrective action expired), and then began sending the threatening letters in 2006, and again in 2008. And yes, my Lot is the ONLY one in the HOA without street trees.

So you see, there is purpose to my "complaining" as you put it. It is to ensure that I am following the law correctly as a homeowner in this corrupt HOA, and to make sure the Board, MC and attorneys follow the law just the same.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


05/24/2016 2:13 PM  
Someone doesn't know the role of the MC or a lawyer. It is NOT to serve as "guidance" to an HOA. That's NOT their job or in some cases their prerogative. The MC relationship to a HOA is a PAID contractor They are not held to the rules of the HOA. They are NOT in the HOA! The contact the HOA has with the MC may mandate that they (MC) be responsible for enforcement or other roles. However, it basically comes down to what powers the HOA decides to CONTRACTUALLY request they do. Our MC/Accountant responsibility was only to handle our money. Other HOA's the MC role can vary or blur lines. It's up to the HOA to make the lines clear.

As for lawyers... They are also hired contractors. If you ever hired one, the first thing out of their mouths is: "We will do whatever you tell us to do". Which is to practice the law because they have license to do so. Kind of like hiring an Electrician to do Electrical work. They are licensed professionals. You as an individual are a great disadvantage of practicing law. Your not trained nor respected in the legal profession.

Lawyers also are a dime a dozen. They are NOT there to "Advise" you. If you believe that, then your being led by your nose. Lawyers do what you want them to do but they rarely advise or guide. They won't do something "illegal" but they will defend you if you do. Lawyer should be hired for the service they will provide for the problem you have.

I have seen several misconceptions in your responses. I also see that you believe the owners are agreeing with you to your face. Which yes, everyone shakes their head to a crazy person as they walk away. Never trust people are on your side if they aren't when you go to a board meeting. The people who are truly on your side are there with you at a meeting with the board. They aren't at home saying you can handle it for them. I know first hand. How else did I get to be President??? Because the people wanted to stay home and have me handle their issues for them.

Sorry folks, I am going on vacation for the next few days. My first "real" vacation in like 5 years. Hope ya have a good week and keep up the good advice!!!

Former HOA President
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/24/2016 2:29 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/24/2016 2:13 PM
Someone doesn't know the role of the MC or a lawyer. It is NOT to serve as "guidance" to an HOA. That's NOT their job or in some cases their prerogative. The MC relationship to a HOA is a PAID contractor They are not held to the rules of the HOA. They are NOT in the HOA! The contact the HOA has with the MC may mandate that they (MC) be responsible for enforcement or other roles. However, it basically comes down to what powers the HOA decides to CONTRACTUALLY request they do. Our MC/Accountant responsibility was only to handle our money. Other HOA's the MC role can vary or blur lines. It's up to the HOA to make the lines clear.

As for lawyers... They are also hired contractors. If you ever hired one, the first thing out of their mouths is: "We will do whatever you tell us to do". Which is to practice the law because they have license to do so. Kind of like hiring an Electrician to do Electrical work. They are licensed professionals. You as an individual are a great disadvantage of practicing law. Your not trained nor respected in the legal profession.

Lawyers also are a dime a dozen. They are NOT there to "Advise" you. If you believe that, then your being led by your nose. Lawyers do what you want them to do but they rarely advise or guide. They won't do something "illegal" but they will defend you if you do. Lawyer should be hired for the service they will provide for the problem you have.

I have seen several misconceptions in your responses.




That is your subjective opinion, and nothing more (albeit incorrect).

I also see that you believe the owners are agreeing with you to your face.




A clear misconception on your part, rather strawman fallacy. That is NOT what I said, nor claimed. The feedback I get via my FB page and IMs is the agreement and support that I have spoken of, more than once.



Sorry folks, I am going on vacation for the next few days. My first "real" vacation in like 5 years. Hope ya have a good week and keep up the good advice!!!




Oh, don't be sorry...have a good time and take your time; as your feedback herein has been overtly negative and not helpful in the slightest the entire thread.
BobD4
(up north)

Posts:956


05/24/2016 4:02 PM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/24/2016 11:11 AM
Posted By BobD4

3 – The Bigger Picture ? Part of it very respectfully, should be the adversaries’ asking themselves as early as possible and with brutal honesty - if what has happened so far is the ultimate direction they want taken. Is more of the same going to move you ahead ? Are others stepping forward to help or support ?

After 17 years, is this now a positive part of where you want to be personally ? Is it enhancing you commensurately with the anger & diversion of your energies ? Further, an individual dissenter ( or small group ) can readily be portrayed as community pariahs for generating legal defence fees. Whatever, good luck with the ADR. /quote]

. . . Yes, others are stepping up to offer their support/assistance in whatever I need.
The second half of #3 was nothing short of an ad hominem. And the only ones irritated with me is the Board members...as I get nothing short of positive feedback from my fellow homeowners who care enough about our plight to opine on the issues that I have addressed publicly.



TroyS2 Oregon : To clarify, I have tried to excise everything "ad hominem" from any of my comments above. If it came out as other than ad rem, I very respectfully apologize for what was not intended.

Early in a mediation, it is not a bad idea to try to get the parties past the 'resolvables' and also to encourage a look at a "Bigger Picture". And specifically to try to do the equivalent of lengthening fuses rather than shortening them.

There may sometimes be a substantial danger for reform seekers/dissenters - and anyone else - to lose sight of what the complaint might look like to them from 10 or 15 years in the future.


Or even from a couple of months looking back. In retrospect, lots of rage over something ( or its opposite ) might look pretty different & less worthwhile than it did earlier.

One of my jurisdiction's best known records access seeker, later rued the real costs & burdens after years of fighting. He would later post at our condo rights Forum.

It doesn't seem unusual for dissenters/reformers ( and their families ) to suffer so much long term toxic retaliation that they might have to move out. That's even the thick skinned ones.

With the support of other like-minded all may work out quite well for you & your HOA . . Good luck with the ADR.
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/24/2016 4:52 PM  
BobD,

Understood, and thank you for clarifying the other matters; as well as a thank you for your positive note towards my effort with ADR.

Time will tell...

Troy

TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


05/25/2016 1:18 AM  
Troy,

It appears that you and I have different methodologies to fix the issue we both agree upon (board members not complying with applicable laws and governing documents).

My methodology worked for me.
You indicate that your methodology works for you.

I wish you luck.

Tim
BanksS


Posts:0


05/25/2016 6:10 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 05/25/2016 1:18 AM
Troy,

It appears that you and I have different methodologies to fix the issue we both agree upon (board members not complying with applicable laws and governing documents).

My methodology worked for me.
You indicate that your methodology works for you.

I wish you luck.

Tim



This was my point in an earlier post. The board may see Troy as the adversary. Since I was sued by my HOA, the Board sees me as the homeowner they sued and that is not who I am as a person. I stuck up for myself and now I have been labeled as a troublemaker and kook. I have tried to change the Board's perception of me by volunteering for committees, helping out with mailings, donating office supplies but to no avail. I do ask questions and ask for board meeting minutes as I do not live in an open meeting state. I guess the Board sees that as being difficult. I do speak up when I disagree with a decision or a policy but I am always respectful. The Board has on a couple of occasions ignored my requests for minutes but I gently remind them that by law they have 10 days to honor that request.

Lawsuits either initiated by the Board or a homeowner always bring a whole new dynamic to a relationship. I'm afraid that stigma will always be attached to me and I will never be able to change that. But life does go on. Perhaps Troy sees his method as the only way to get the HOA to comply with the governing documents. As I have said before, no two HOAs are alike.
BobD4
(up north)

Posts:956


05/25/2016 7:01 AM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/24/2016

If I had bowed to their illicit coercive threatening will back in 2006 and just paid the hundreds of dollars to have street trees planted, I would have been out of that money for no legitimate reason. . . . I found a legitimate reason to not plant them and proved, legally, that the Board, MC and attorneys has no legal standing to make such a request regardless of what the CC&Rs state about the street trees being required on each lot. . . . The declarant tried to write off its responsibility by passing the buck, literally, onto the homeowners to have the trees planted at the homeowners expense. That is illegal, an adhesion contractual term.

Notwithstanding, the underlining legal point that the Board, MC and attorneys failed to comprehend was the 1 year statute of limitations to take action on any identified deficiency. .
. . And yes, my Lot is the ONLY one in the HOA without street trees.




The original tree planting backstory here is a cautionary tale to volunteer Directors who may not immediately foresee how & where a dispute can go. Some memories don't fade.

If Oregon for example follows an "affirmative obligation" / vulnerable mere chain of positive covenant promises on title line of cases like mine, then developer promises perhaps MAY - may - not be enforceable if the chain is broke.

Whatever Troy S2 & his predecessors covenanted on title, this should have received competent legal treatment if it did not. ( Further, emerging municipal tree protection bylaw fights in my jurisdiction would make me somewhat reluctant to even plant a tree if I lived in an urban area now. )

"Just throwing something against a wall to see if it sticks" - whatever the scenario here - can come back to haunt volunteers for a long time . . .

TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/25/2016 9:02 AM  
Posted By BanksS on 05/25/2016 6:10 AM
Posted By TimB4 on 05/25/2016 1:18 AM
Troy,

It appears that you and I have different methodologies to fix the issue we both agree upon (board members not complying with applicable laws and governing documents).

My methodology worked for me.
You indicate that your methodology works for you.

I wish you luck.

Tim



This was my point in an earlier post. The board may see Troy as the adversary. Since I was sued by my HOA, the Board sees me as the homeowner they sued and that is not who I am as a person. I stuck up for myself and now I have been labeled as a troublemaker and kook. I have tried to change the Board's perception of me by volunteering for committees, helping out with mailings, donating office supplies but to no avail. I do ask questions and ask for board meeting minutes as I do not live in an open meeting state. I guess the Board sees that as being difficult. I do speak up when I disagree with a decision or a policy but I am always respectful. The Board has on a couple of occasions ignored my requests for minutes but I gently remind them that by law they have 10 days to honor that request.

Lawsuits either initiated by the Board or a homeowner always bring a whole new dynamic to a relationship. I'm afraid that stigma will always be attached to me and I will never be able to change that. But life does go on. Perhaps Troy sees his method as the only way to get the HOA to comply with the governing documents. As I have said before, no two HOAs are alike.




Thank you, well said; and yes, my method is the only way to get the HOA to comply with the governing documents. It's worked in the past and will continue to work...and we shall see how the "relationship" changes if and when my HOA is sued.

Yours and Tim's feedback has been the most informative and helpful, and appreciated. Thank you both again for your input.

Troy
PitA


Posts:0


05/25/2016 10:57 AM  
remind us, why, exactly, you require feedback ?

please do so in the greatest detail possible as your rhetoric is fascinating as well as highly entertaining
TroyS2
(Oregon)

Posts:610


05/25/2016 11:21 AM  
Posted By PitA on 05/25/2016 10:57 AM
remind us, why, exactly, you require feedback ?

please do so in the greatest detail possible as your rhetoric is fascinating as well as highly entertaining




I do not "require" (strawman fallacy) feedback, but I asked for it for the same obvious reason everyone else does who finds this forum, joins, and shares their HOA problems.

Done being a smarta$$, or can we expect more obnoxious unhelpful comments from you (like we've continuously seen from Melissa, et al).
RichardP13


Posts:0


05/25/2016 11:26 AM  
Posted By TroyS2 on 05/25/2016 11:21 AM
Posted By PitA on 05/25/2016 10:57 AM
remind us, why, exactly, you require feedback ?

please do so in the greatest detail possible as your rhetoric is fascinating as well as highly entertaining




I do not "require" (strawman fallacy) feedback, but I asked for it for the same obvious reason everyone else does who finds this forum, joins, and shares their HOA problems.

Done being a smarta$$, or can we expect more obnoxious unhelpful comments from you (like we've continuously seen from Melissa, et al).



I am sure you can expect more.
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