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Subject: How to Disband Your HOA
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Author Messages
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


08/11/2013 8:54 PM  
The key to any successfully ran HOA is to change the culture and perception. I did it in ours. People getting positive attitudes and education. I always insisted on bringing our rules to the board meetings and referencing them in correspondence. That was something the boards before and after me did not do much of. However, I found just adding that bit of structure to the meetings and being OPEN with all the members really made changes happen. If you keep thinking bad things about HOA's, then bad things are all you got on your mind. If you realize the reality of a HOA, then you can move on and get things done.

BTW... it is NOT "Like" your suing yourself and your neighbors when you sue your HOA. It IS that you are. Sorry if you hate to hear that or don't want to accept the consequences of those actions. It's just the cold hard truth and fact of the matter. NEVER EVER said that one should not sue their HOA. That is NOT what I mean when I post that statement. It is clearly DEFINING the circumstance/risk you are taking when you do so. It is up to YOU or the other members to decide if this is a consequence willing to take. If not, then find another avenue. If yes, then go ahead. Just don't live in denial cause you don't like that concept and FACT.

For those who want to hear about my "love life". I did indeed date my scumbag ex-president for a month before making a plan to take over the HOA to rid itself of him. I succeeded and changed our HOA to a successfully ran HOA that property values increased by several thousand dollars. We had a "waiting list" for homes with some selling within a few hours of being posted. Did not let some con-artist psycho slow me down in achieving a better life for me and my neighbors. I made it happen and I did it by using him like a doormat... Now done talking about that as it's just a distraction tactic of Amin's to say things like getting off topic when the reality and truth is presented to them....

Former HOA President
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/12/2013 2:48 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/11/2013 9:02 AM

How about answering my question.

Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010




Well it seems they're willing to let you but you're too afraid to:
Posted By AminB on 07/27/2013 7:35 AM
Well, they have said I can come and review them, but I am afraid this is what they would want me to see. The management company is the one that has all the documents and she was the first one to refuse my request. Going there alone with all the hostile eyes following me and them knowing that I could probably get them in trouble with the law may not be the best option.



Now I don't know if your BOD is on the up and up or scurrilous cads as you have portrayed them but I do know that things like insurance fraud are actual crimes and are investigated.

I also know if you are running around screaming the sky is falling and all of your neighbors are just standing around not doing anything to protect their investment - then either they are in on it or maybe, just maybe the sky isn't falling.









Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/12/2013 6:17 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/11/2013 8:54 PM
The key to any successfully ran HOA is to change the culture and perception. I did it in ours. People getting positive attitudes and education. I always insisted on bringing our rules to the board meetings and referencing them in correspondence. That was something the boards before and after me did not do much of. However, I found just adding that bit of structure to the meetings and being OPEN with all the members really made changes happen. If you keep thinking bad things about HOA's, then bad things are all you got on your mind. If you realize the reality of a HOA, then you can move on and get things done.

BTW... it is NOT "Like" your suing yourself and your neighbors when you sue your HOA. It IS that you are. Sorry if you hate to hear that or don't want to accept the consequences of those actions. It's just the cold hard truth and fact of the matter. NEVER EVER said that one should not sue their HOA. That is NOT what I mean when I post that statement. It is clearly DEFINING the circumstance/risk you are taking when you do so. It is up to YOU or the other members to decide if this is a consequence willing to take. If not, then find another avenue. If yes, then go ahead. Just don't live in denial cause you don't like that concept and FACT.

For those who want to hear about my "love life". I did indeed date my scumbag ex-president for a month before making a plan to take over the HOA to rid itself of him. I succeeded and changed our HOA to a successfully ran HOA that property values increased by several thousand dollars. We had a "waiting list" for homes with some selling within a few hours of being posted. Did not let some con-artist psycho slow me down in achieving a better life for me and my neighbors. I made it happen and I did it by using him like a doormat... Now done talking about that as it's just a distraction tactic of Amin's to say things like getting off topic when the reality and truth is presented to them....



So thats how you changed the culture over there, by sleeping with your con buddy and by his support you slept your way to the top. Your neighbors warned you about , and you dated him and anyway because you were afraid how they might think about you?!!! Wow. Only a board member can come up with a fishy story like that.


Speaking of changing subjects , how about yoy stop changin the subject and answer my question. If you say you already answered me, which I never saw cope and paste that answer. Here is teh question for the tenth time:



Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010






How about answering my question.

Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010
AminB


Posts:0


08/12/2013 6:25 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/12/2013 2:48 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/11/2013 9:02 AM

How about answering my question.

Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010




Well it seems they're willing to let you but you're too afraid to:
Posted By AminB on 07/27/2013 7:35 AM
Well, they have said I can come and review them, but I am afraid this is what they would want me to see. The management company is the one that has all the documents and she was the first one to refuse my request. Going there alone with all the hostile eyes following me and them knowing that I could probably get them in trouble with the law may not be the best option.



Now I don't know if your BOD is on the up and up or scurrilous cads as you have portrayed them but I do know that things like insurance fraud are actual crimes and are investigated.

I also know if you are running around screaming the sky is falling and all of your neighbors are just standing around not doing anything to protect their investment - then either they are in on it or maybe, just maybe the sky isn't falling.












What a clever play on words, that only a board member can come up with. I am afraid of bunch of papers. even a board member whose some of them (not all) their functions is to get kickbacks from the contractors and submit phony insurance claims when disaster strikes can do better than that. That show how what an insincere person you are and what an insincere article it was. It show you really like HOAs and don't want anything happen to them.

Yes these are actual crimes and I am trying to investigate them but they are closing the books on me. Homeowners as in most places are apathetic and they usually don't get involved. Are you too afraid that I might give yet another black eye to the HOA and somebody in your own HOA might read this and try to dig the bones from your own HOA backyard?I have the same question for you




Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

AminB


Posts:0


08/12/2013 6:44 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/11/2013 11:52 AM
Amin,

OK. I'll finally admit what all the regular posters here know. You found out the truth and you are 100% correct. All Board members have selective memories. Everyone on this site knows that you should be provided the documents you asked for regardless of how much effort and expense the Association must put into it (even if the Law doesn't require that much effort). Your Associations attorney misinterpreted your covenants (on purpose) that you needed 45% of the units for a recall vs. 45% of the membership (misinterpreting legal documents is what they were trained to do in law school) Legislatures are bought by the CAI so that corporate laws and HOA/COA laws support corruption within all Associations. There is no further benefit to deny the simple truth that you are right and those who disagree with you are wrong.


Did that change anything in your life?

Does this revelation on our part change how your Board responds to your requests?






Its like talking to a wall. Nothing goes through you, does it? I guess when board members doctor documents, submit phony insurance claims when disaster strikes or get kickbacks from contractors (their main bread and butter), nothing else matters, does it? I thought 2 post ago was your final post to me personally. I hope you know by now your posts to
me have zero value. I must have said this to you , I am here to get advice from honest homeowners who work their butts off so you can call yourself a board member,in similar situations . I fully knew that worthless answers would be a byproduct of my quest. I answer an insincere article designed to keep honest homeowners from going after the board criminal activities and there you are with a bunch of other characters,dragging yourself from another thread and then complain why I am answering this post You are trying to actually make a point that even the board members are elected with the mechanisms paid by homeowner money and they are a non-profit corporation (meaning they don't make any money), they have a right to keep financial books away from us.In other words get it only by filing a lawsuit. I think this cast of characters who appear in pretty much every thread, are people who have bones buried in their own backyard and any attempt by somebody else to dig those bones from their own backyard might result honest homeowners who read these, to take action of their own and get you and others in trouble , like going to prison.


You already admitted that my HOA has no good reason to keep those financials from me. Why are you defending an HOA who you don't even know where they are , what city its located, etc.?

AminB


Posts:0


08/12/2013 6:51 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 08/11/2013 5:29 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 08/11/2013 11:52 AM
Amin,

OK. I'll finally admit what all the regular posters here know. You found out the truth and you are 100% correct. All Board members have selective memories. Everyone on this site knows that you should be provided the documents you asked for regardless of how much effort and expense the Association must put into it (even if the Law doesn't require that much effort). Your Associations attorney misinterpreted your covenants (on purpose) that you needed 45% of the units for a recall vs. 45% of the membership (misinterpreting legal documents is what they were trained to do in law school) Legislatures are bought by the CAI so that corporate laws and HOA/COA laws support corruption within all Associations. There is no further benefit to deny the simple truth that you are right and those who disagree with you are wrong.


Did that change anything in your life?

Does this revelation on our part change how your Board responds to your requests?




Sounds like by your previous postings also, you are in love with him.

I am asking you for the tenth or eleventh time(I've lost count).


Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010




I love it.

Does the word facetious mean anything to Amin?







TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


08/12/2013 8:14 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 6:44 AM
I thought 2 post ago was your final post to me personally. I hope you know by now your posts to me have zero value.




I said in your other thread that my last post there would be my last post to you on that topic,

Obviously it appears you missed that part.


Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 6:44 AM

I must have said this to you , I am here to get advice from honest homeowners who work their butts off so you can call yourself a board member,in similar situations.




Well that has already been answered by me on the other thread. There were other answers there as well.

I hope you take my advice of actually taking time out of your day to go and inspect the Association records (as they had offered) prior to filing legal action claiming that they are not providing those documents to you as I believe that that is sound advice. Of course the choice is yours.
AminB


Posts:0


08/12/2013 8:32 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/12/2013 8:14 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 6:44 AM
I thought 2 post ago was your final post to me personally. I hope you know by now your posts to me have zero value.




I said in your other thread that my last post there would be my last post to you on that topic,

Obviously it appears you missed that part.


Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 6:44 AM

I must have said this to you , I am here to get advice from honest homeowners who work their butts off so you can call yourself a board member,in similar situations.




Well that has already been answered by me on the other thread. There were other answers there as well.

I hope you take my advice of actually taking time out of your day to go and inspect the Association records (as they had offered) prior to filing legal action claiming that they are not providing those documents to you as I believe that that is sound advice. Of course the choice is yours.




No, I haven't got any answers from anybody in similar situations. 99% have been answers like yours, like don't go after them, there's nothing to see here, don't disband your HOAS you don't know what hell will break lose, and other worthless comments like that.

I have told you several times now and as i said it like talking to the wall. I say it one more time. The insurance documents related to the same issue arrived and the owner of the management company opened it , went through it and then when he made sure there was nothing that would incriminate him or other board members, then he gave it to me.
How much credence should I give to an offer to inspect their documents? As I said before, you have selective memory and probably are scared somebody in your own community might read this , get the idea , se similar circumstances and start investigating your HOA.

Why are you defending an HOA that you don't even know the city where its located, location, etc.?
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


08/12/2013 3:21 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM
99% have been answers like yours, like don't go after them,




Actually, I didn't say don't go after them.
If that is your only choice and you have made an informed decision, then yes, "go after them" if that is what it takes.

I said prior to legal actions you should take them up on their offer to physically come in and examine the records. Otherwise you would likely give them an excellent defense.

Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

there's nothing to see here




I never said that. I said that you should take them up on their offer, make time in your day and take them up on their offer to physically go in and examine the records. Once you do that you will know if there is anything to see or not. However, until you choose to actually do that, you only give the impression of crying wolf (to use an old children's story metaphor)

Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

don't disband your HOAS you don't know what hell will break lose




If you want to disband you Association, go for it.
As Glen pointed out at the start of this thread, your governing documents should explain how to do this.

There are some developments, condominiums and town home developments come to mind, that may have more difficulty in actually abolishing their Association. This is because of the many common elements. However, it can be done if everyone is willing.


Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

and other worthless comments like that.




I'm sorry you find my comments worthless.
Many find them helpful.


Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

I have told you several times now and as i said it like talking to the wall. I say it one more time. The insurance documents related to the same issue arrived and the owner of the management company opened it , went through it and then when he made sure there was nothing that would incriminate him or other board members, then he gave it to me.




I understand that. Since they did this, it appears that you will either need to:

a) live with that action (something that it appears you are not willing to do)
b) Get elected to the Board or have other like minded individuals elected to the board so you have full access to that information.
c) Consult with an attorney to see what your legal options may be.


Which option you decide to follow is up to you.




Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

How much credence should I give to an offer to inspect their documents?




You should give it as much credence as you believe it should be given.
However, if you are considering legal action, I would encourage you to take them up on their offer. Who knows, maybe they will forget to hold something back.

BTW: You have mentioned that you are looking at financials. You may also want to look at all the minutes of the meetings as those typically provide more info than the financials.


Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

As I said before, you have selective memory and probably are scared somebody in your own community might read this , get the idea , se similar circumstances and start investigating your HOA.




Well if you believe that I have selective memory, I doubt anything I do will change that opinion. Therefore, I won't bother to try.

Actually, since I fought my own Association, we have become more transparent than before I took up that fight. All of our minutes, financial reports, audit reports and governing documents are available to all members on our website. All Board meetings are announced and open to the membership. Therefore, any member of my Association is free to investigate all they desire to.


Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

Why are you defending an HOA that you don't even know the city where its located, location, etc.?




I'm not defending your Association.

I'm actually trying to help you address your issue. The issue I have heard is that you want certain documents. The Association sent you some documents but apparently not all of them. You brought this point up to your Association and they invited you to physically come in and look at the documents they have. You have chosen not to take them up on that offer.

As you said, I don't know you, your Association or even where it is located. From my perspective, based on what information you have provided (remembering that what is common knowledge to you is not common knowledge to us), what research I have done (looking up the applicable statutes) and from my own experiences, it appears that the next logical move would be for you (or your agent) to actually go in and see the records they offered to show you.

At the very least, I hope I have provided you with a different perspective on your issue so you may make an informed decision on how to proceed.



MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


08/12/2013 8:29 PM  
Don't waste anymore words... unless they are ones you want twisted or picked on which are heard... Talk about brick walls... I've got better things to "bang" against...LOL! Like a scumbag con-man...

I am DONE with this poster... Enough has been said and enough will be proven with their own words. Not mine... Good luck and good bye!

Former HOA President
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/12/2013 8:32 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 6:25 AM

Yes these are actual crimes and I am trying to investigate them but they are closing the books on me. Homeowners as in most places are apathetic and they usually don't get involved. Are you too afraid that I might give yet another black eye to the HOA and somebody in your own HOA might read this and try to dig the bones from your own HOA backyard?I have the same question for you

Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010




Instead of playing Columbo, report them to the proper authorities, police, DA's and the feds actually investigate crimes.

You personally admitted in your thread that they said you could inspect them but:
Well, they have said I can come and review them, but I am afraid this is what they would want me to see. The management company is the one that has all the documents and she was the first one to refuse my request. Going there alone with all the hostile eyes following me and them knowing that I could probably get them in trouble with the law may not be the best option.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/13/2013 6:52 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/12/2013 3:21 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM
99% have been answers like yours, like don't go after them,




Actually, I didn't say don't go after them.
If that is your only choice and you have made an informed decision, then yes, "go after them" if that is what it takes.

I said prior to legal actions you should take them up on their offer to physically come in and examine the records. Otherwise you would likely give them an excellent defense.

Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

there's nothing to see here




I never said that. I said that you should take them up on their offer, make time in your day and take them up on their offer to physically go in and examine the records. Once you do that you will know if there is anything to see or not. However, until you choose to actually do that, you only give the impression of crying wolf (to use an old children's story metaphor)

Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

don't disband your HOAS you don't know what hell will break lose




If you want to disband you Association, go for it.
As Glen pointed out at the start of this thread, your governing documents should explain how to do this.

There are some developments, condominiums and town home developments come to mind, that may have more difficulty in actually abolishing their Association. This is because of the many common elements. However, it can be done if everyone is willing.


Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

and other worthless comments like that.




I'm sorry you find my comments worthless.
Many find them helpful.


Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

I have told you several times now and as i said it like talking to the wall. I say it one more time. The insurance documents related to the same issue arrived and the owner of the management company opened it , went through it and then when he made sure there was nothing that would incriminate him or other board members, then he gave it to me.




I understand that. Since they did this, it appears that you will either need to:

a) live with that action (something that it appears you are not willing to do)
b) Get elected to the Board or have other like minded individuals elected to the board so you have full access to that information.
c) Consult with an attorney to see what your legal options may be.


Which option you decide to follow is up to you.




Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

How much credence should I give to an offer to inspect their documents?




You should give it as much credence as you believe it should be given.
However, if you are considering legal action, I would encourage you to take them up on their offer. Who knows, maybe they will forget to hold something back.

BTW: You have mentioned that you are looking at financials. You may also want to look at all the minutes of the meetings as those typically provide more info than the financials.


Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

As I said before, you have selective memory and probably are scared somebody in your own community might read this , get the idea , se similar circumstances and start investigating your HOA.




Well if you believe that I have selective memory, I doubt anything I do will change that opinion. Therefore, I won't bother to try.

Actually, since I fought my own Association, we have become more transparent than before I took up that fight. All of our minutes, financial reports, audit reports and governing documents are available to all members on our website. All Board meetings are announced and open to the membership. Therefore, any member of my Association is free to investigate all they desire to.


Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 8:32 AM

Why are you defending an HOA that you don't even know the city where its located, location, etc.?




I'm not defending your Association.

I'm actually trying to help you address your issue. The issue I have heard is that you want certain documents. The Association sent you some documents but apparently not all of them. You brought this point up to your Association and they invited you to physically come in and look at the documents they have. You have chosen not to take them up on that offer.

As you said, I don't know you, your Association or even where it is located. From my perspective, based on what information you have provided (remembering that what is common knowledge to you is not common knowledge to us), what research I have done (looking up the applicable statutes) and from my own experiences, it appears that the next logical move would be for you (or your agent) to actually go in and see the records they offered to show you.

At the very least, I hope I have provided you with a different perspective on your issue so you may make an informed decision on how to proceed.







As an honest homeowner, I don't find your comments helpful at all. To me its the same thing. I post in any thread and the whole nervous clan moves and tries to answer me. Some by insult, some dismissive, some try to discourage me.
The money you guys make being board members( under the table), must be a whole lot more than I thought, otherwise you wouldn't be answering (everyone of you nervous clan).
Its still like talking to a wall. I am here to get advice from homeowners (not board members) who have been in a similar situation: Suspicion fraud by their HOA and what they did about it.
In the coming weeks, I will do as my attorney says. If its a good idea to go and look at the documents then I will.
Do you honestly think that I would find "uncollected maintenance fees" or any other documents that might incriminate them, just for me to take copies? Remember I was told just a few weeks ago that "I am not entitled to that". Remember also when I requested documents direct from the insurance company that wrote the check, it arrived sealed , only to be opened by the owner of the management company first and then handed over to me , opened. Be honest.


AminB


Posts:0


08/13/2013 7:09 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/12/2013 8:32 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/12/2013 6:25 AM

Yes these are actual crimes and I am trying to investigate them but they are closing the books on me. Homeowners as in most places are apathetic and they usually don't get involved. Are you too afraid that I might give yet another black eye to the HOA and somebody in your own HOA might read this and try to dig the bones from your own HOA backyard?I have the same question for you

Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010




Instead of playing Columbo, report them to the proper authorities, police, DA's and the feds actually investigate crimes.

You personally admitted in your thread that they said you could inspect them but:
Well, they have said I can come and review them, but I am afraid this is what they would want me to see. The management company is the one that has all the documents and she was the first one to refuse my request. Going there alone with all the hostile eyes following me and them knowing that I could probably get them in trouble with the law may not be the best option.




Another funny one. If I am Colombo, they you guys must be the criminals (white collar type). So now anybody who wants to see what happened to their money in the HOA they have invested, is called a Colombo. What do you have against honest homeowners spending their own money finding out , with suspicious circumstances surrounding it, what happened to their money. Your illogical analogy fails here. I am spending my own money. It just further confirms the other hidden intent of you article. Its "don't go through our records", or "there is nothing to see here". I said , I requested a certain specific document and I was refused. I have posted time and again as to why I find this, an exercise in futility. They saw the insurance documents sent by the insurance company that wrote the check first before handing them over to me? I know you are an insincere guy , writing a bogus article, but even somebody like you who probably makes money from their HOA under the table, should live in the real world. I will do as my attorney would say, but do you honestly think I would find what i am entitled to, and was refused a few weeks ago to look at them, not with one inspection, I can find them? Be honest now.

If you try to clean up your act and answer me honestly, how about finally answering ,my question that I have asked you repeatedly:


Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

I just have an idea with all your other insincere acts, you will continue to be insincere and keep ignoring the question.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/13/2013 7:35 AM  
You keep asking but you yourself admitted that they said you could inspect the records but you were afraid to. You keep making excuses why you can't do this or that but at the end of the day I fear you are just a blowhard. You say there is insurance fraud, you say they are taking kickbacks, you say they are doing this or that but you have no proof. Now you are accusing them of doctoring records again with no proof.

Instead of making baseless accusations why don't you just get off of your duff and go inspect them. Tim even gave you a link to the TX HOA statutes where they tell you how to request to inspect the records and which records you are not entitled to inspect. But no, what if there is no record of insurance fraud, what if there is no record of kickbacks, what if there are no doctored records? What then? It would mean you were wrong, better to keep bleating about how oppressed you are and how you know everyone around you, everyone who serves on a Board is a criminal.


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/13/2013 7:59 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/13/2013 7:35 AM
You keep asking but you yourself admitted that they said you could inspect the records but you were afraid to. You keep making excuses why you can't do this or that but at the end of the day I fear you are just a blowhard. You say there is insurance fraud, you say they are taking kickbacks, you say they are doing this or that but you have no proof. Now you are accusing them of doctoring records again with no proof.

Instead of making baseless accusations why don't you just get off of your duff and go inspect them. Tim even gave you a link to the TX HOA statutes where they tell you how to request to inspect the records and which records you are not entitled to inspect. But no, what if there is no record of insurance fraud, what if there is no record of kickbacks, what if there are no doctored records? What then? It would mean you were wrong, better to keep bleating about how oppressed you are and how you know everyone around you, everyone who serves on a Board is a criminal.




Another wall I am talking to. Another board member having selective memory. Its as if you guys just turn a blind eye to what you don't like to see. For the thousandth time, I tell you, I have an accountant who can investigate this . For the thousandth time I see answers "but you don't have any proof". They denied my request handed it me by my accountant. How could I get a proof if I can't get the documents to my accountant? I have no proof of fraud, just a suspicion, enough to go for an investigation. Can't you even try to understand this simple cause and effect case? I know you guys here are just insincere as they come, even your hero Tim couldn't tell me where to go if those statutes are not adhered to. It means they are toothless, unless filing a lawsuit. Do I have to spell it for you, you insincere guy?

And why are you dodging my question?

Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/13/2013 8:26 AM  
You are entitled under the law to see just about anything in the way of the HOA's financial documents: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PR/htm/PR.209.htm

All you have to do is make the proper request but here's the kicker - YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO GO AND INSPECT THEM.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/13/2013 8:31 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/13/2013 8:26 AM
You are entitled under the law to see just about anything in the way of the HOA's financial documents: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PR/htm/PR.209.htm

All you have to do is make the proper request but here's the kicker - YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO GO AND INSPECT THEM.



Here is the real kicker. what if as they are doing now, they refuse to show it them to me?
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/13/2013 8:39 AM  
Then at least then you will know.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/13/2013 8:43 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/13/2013 8:39 AM
Then at least then you will know.



I can save myself time and money without listening to this worthless advice. I know that already.





GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/13/2013 9:10 AM  
OK then try this, if they refuse after you make a proper request according to the statutes, then take them to court. Oh, I know that costs money, yes but if they are in the wrong and you can prove it and request it, the judge might order the HOA to pay you reasonable attorney fees. But what if the judge doesn't? You pays your money and takes your spin, of course if the judge rules against you he could order you to pay the HOA's attorney fees. But what if this? What if that? Until you actually try, you'll never know. Or you could just keep bleating about how unfair it all is, when you know in your heart everyone is as crooked as a mountain road, all you need is proof but your too afraid to go after it and would rather play the what if game.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/13/2013 9:23 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/13/2013 9:10 AM
OK then try this, if they refuse after you make a proper request according to the statutes, then take them to court. Oh, I know that costs money, yes but if they are in the wrong and you can prove it and request it, the judge might order the HOA to pay you reasonable attorney fees. But what if the judge doesn't? You pays your money and takes your spin, of course if the judge rules against you he could order you to pay the HOA's attorney fees. But what if this? What if that? Until you actually try, you'll never know. Or you could just keep bleating about how unfair it all is, when you know in your heart everyone is as crooked as a mountain road, all you need is proof but your too afraid to go after it and would rather play the what if game.



You are a thicker wall than your buddy Tim is. At least he understood after a while. Nothing seems to pass through you. Some more scare tactics huh? Only comes from a board member who has bones buried in their own backyard and doesn't want their own honest homeowners go through his own HOA papers. The truth is out. Other than going to court , the honest homeowner has no recourse and the crook board member has all the laws protecting him. When somebody wants to find out they close the papers and some even go these websites and hide their true intentions by writing disingenuous articles as "How to disband your HOA", really meaning "Don't do it" . Your article never fooled me a minute. I could read through that insincerity and misinformation.

I am not here to get information from your type,. im am here to get information from my type, the honest homeworker who has been in similar situation and as a byproduct of this quest , expose your type.


Will you ever man up and answer the question I have posted several times to you already, or you'll be forever hiding behind circular arguments , rhetoric and pure BS?
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/13/2013 9:47 AM  
And I've answered you with your own words several times - you don't want this resolved you just want to have your own little pity party. If your own neighbors aren't screaming for the Board's heads after you revealed to them how the Board was stealing their money.... Oh wait that would require you to get involved and not just cast baseless (at least at this time) accusations around.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/13/2013 10:08 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/13/2013 9:47 AM
And I've answered you with your own words several times - you don't want this resolved you just want to have your own little pity party. If your own neighbors aren't screaming for the Board's heads after you revealed to them how the Board was stealing their money.... Oh wait that would require you to get involved and not just cast baseless (at least at this time) accusations around.



I knew you weren't man enough and just ramble and BS. Since you say you have answered it already in my own words, how about answering it in your own words?


Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/13/2013 10:21 AM  
I did perhaps you missed it:

You are entitled under the law to see just about anything in the way of the HOA's financial documents: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PR/htm/PR.209.htm

All you have to do is make the proper request but here's the kicker - YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO GO AND INSPECT THEM.


In fact has anyone here told you that you have no right to see them? I only mentioned that there were some limitations in the statute.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/13/2013 10:27 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/13/2013 10:21 AM
I did perhaps you missed it:

You are entitled under the law to see just about anything in the way of the HOA's financial documents: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PR/htm/PR.209.htm

All you have to do is make the proper request but here's the kicker - YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO GO AND INSPECT THEM.


In fact has anyone here told you that you have no right to see them? I only mentioned that there were some limitations in the statute.



According to you , you used my own words. Are you man enough to use your own words? I doubt it. Here is the question again:

Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/13/2013 10:59 AM  
Are you really that obtuse? You asked me to answer in my own words and I did and you know it.

BTW here's where they said you could inspect the records but you were afraid they would give you the evil eye:

Posted By AminB on 07/27/2013 7:35 AM
Well, they have said I can come and review them, but I am afraid this is what they would want me to see. The management company is the one that has all the documents and she was the first one to refuse my request. Going there alone with all the hostile eyes following me and them knowing that I could probably get them in trouble with the law may not be the best option.





Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/13/2013 12:03 PM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/13/2013 10:59 AM
Are you really that obtuse? You asked me to answer in my own words and I did and you know it.

BTW here's where they said you could inspect the records but you were afraid they would give you the evil eye:

Posted By AminB on 07/27/2013 7:35 AM
Well, they have said I can come and review them, but I am afraid this is what they would want me to see. The management company is the one that has all the documents and she was the first one to refuse my request. Going there alone with all the hostile eyes following me and them knowing that I could probably get them in trouble with the law may not be the best option.








I knew you weren't man enough. Many board members are like thieves that they are. As soon as they see the light of the day, they run away.


Be a man and not a chicken and answer the following:

Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010


I am not holding my breath on you answering it though. Board members are usually cowards. probably too many buried bones that they don't want dug up by their own homwners.
TimB4
(Tennessee)

Posts:17830


08/13/2013 1:37 PM  
Posted By AminB on 08/13/2013 6:52 AM

Its still like talking to a wall. I am here to get advice from homeowners (not board members)




Have you read the big yellow banner at the top of every forum page?


"A positive place for community association leaders to share ideas and learn"


Since this site is identified as a site for those who are currently or have previously served on their Association Board or their Association Committees, it would be logical to expect responses to posts to be from current or previous Board members or Committee members.

AminB


Posts:0


08/13/2013 1:51 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 08/13/2013 1:37 PM
Posted By AminB on 08/13/2013 6:52 AM

Its still like talking to a wall. I am here to get advice from homeowners (not board members)




Have you read the big yellow banner at the top of every forum page?


"A positive place for community association leaders to share ideas and learn"


Since this site is identified as a site for those who are currently or have previously served on their Association Board or their Association Committees, it would be logical to expect responses to posts to be from current or previous Board members or Committee members.




Yeah as you said "to share ideas and learn". It seems like the place is crawling with board members telling me basically "there is nothing to see here" or "this is a witch hunt", etc. The only thing I don't get is from regular homeowners sharing with me the experiences in similar situation. Don't tell me current board members or former board members don't have ANY experience in that. Probably they won't share because they have or have had their hands in the cookie jar.
JonD1


Posts:0


08/13/2013 2:08 PM  
I know some folks might take months or longer to put all the pieces together but I have read and heard more than enough.

Amin is a clown. They come to this site desif=gend for those serving on Boards and than argue when people don't fall into total agreement.

Any wonder how or why there migh be ongoing conflict between Amin and thei Board?

Over and over and over again like a broken record. I want this. I want this. Is there any reason I don't get everything I want??????

Annyoing is the best think I can say about their behavior on this site!
Imagine how how those who actually have to deal wih this slow 2 year old mentality feel??????

Yes, we are all thieves cause Amin says so....

Yes, all HOAs are EVIL cause Amin says so......

Yes, all HOA Boards submit false insurance claims cause Amin says so

Yes, all HOA Board members are in this corrupt system together we all meet secretly each month to share how we steal, commit illegal acts, abuse association members and benefi ourselves cause Amin says so.

And to tell you all the truth I would not turn anything over to them if I had a say.

Amin must think posting here supports their cause. When in fact all it does is prove how limited, demanding, and simple some people can be.

For me I have seen enough. Find some other place to whine, squeal, and bitch.

ValerieS2
(Michigan)

Posts:244


08/14/2013 5:12 AM  
Jon, unfortunately (or fortunately), it is not your call to dismiss anyone from posting here.

May I suggest if you are so annoyed and put off that you stop engaging these "clowns"? Would you stop to rant and rave with a lunatic on the street? Do you not remember the timeless advice of your mother to "ignore them and they will stop"?

Oh I forgot - you want to make sure us gullible simpletons get the REAL scoop from YOU. (no one is buying it). The fact that you dedicate so much time and effort in discourse with them lends credence and validation to their complaints.
JonD1


Posts:0


08/14/2013 5:51 AM  
Posted By ValerieS2 on 08/14/2013 5:12 AM
Jon, unfortunately (or fortunately), it is not your call to dismiss anyone from posting here.

May I suggest if you are so annoyed and put off that you stop engaging these "clowns"? Would you stop to rant and rave with a lunatic on the street? Do you not remember the timeless advice of your mother to "ignore them and they will stop"?

Oh I forgot - you want to make sure us gullible simpletons get the REAL scoop from YOU. (no one is buying it). The fact that you dedicate so much time and effort in discourse with them lends credence and validation to their complaints.




Valerie:

I was NOT dismissing Amin from posting I was commenting on the content of their posts. Now you might wish to twist the words around to find some conflict with me but that would be on you.

Amin does not know if the records they demand exist.

Amin does not have proof ANY fraud or crime was committed but they have no problem making such claims.

Amin has been invited to come to the MC's office and view the records they have. But that is not satisfactory for Amin.

Those posting here DO NOT and never had access to these records than why continue to ask US why they are not turned over????

What purpose does this serve???

And as I did NOT include you in the "gullible simpletons" grouping once again YOU twist words to find fault and issues. I seem to remember offering advice on more than one occasion that was in fact the REAL scoop whether you could understand or not.

I would have to wonder since you asked about my motivations, why YOU seem to rise to every occasion when someone claims to find fault with their HOA and accept those claims as facts?

It is my understanding I have the right to hold my opinions.
Whether you would agree matters litle to me. If you wish to consider Amin has a point aqfter repeating the same simpleminded demands over and over and oaver again with no results that would speak as much to your state of mind as that of Amin.

Perhaps, in your world you would waste time debating, examining, and considering Amin's point of view. I would not be bothered. I don't get paid enough for that. Oh wait I don't get paid at all.....

But according to Amin any HOA Board member makes money because we are all thieves, liars, and corrupt. EVIL was Amin's word of choice.

Thanks for the lecture Valerie but IMO Amin remains a clown.
Can they continue to post here? I would have to say YES because as you pointed out I don't have the power to prevent it. That does not mean I need to sit back and not comment.

ValerieS2
(Michigan)

Posts:244


08/14/2013 6:58 AM  
Jon: "I have seen enough. Find some other place to whine, squeal, and bitch" definitely dismissive (and pointless)


Again you rambled on foolishly, completely missing my point. Par for the course though. Have a nice day!
AminB


Posts:0


08/14/2013 7:35 AM  
Posted By JonD1 on 08/13/2013 2:08 PM
I know some folks might take months or longer to put all the pieces together but I have read and heard more than enough.

Amin is a clown. They come to this site desif=gend for those serving on Boards and than argue when people don't fall into total agreement.

Any wonder how or why there migh be ongoing conflict between Amin and thei Board?

Over and over and over again like a broken record. I want this. I want this. Is there any reason I don't get everything I want??????

Annyoing is the best think I can say about their behavior on this site!
Imagine how how those who actually have to deal wih this slow 2 year old mentality feel??????

Yes, we are all thieves cause Amin says so....

Yes, all HOAs are EVIL cause Amin says so......

Yes, all HOA Boards submit false insurance claims cause Amin says so

Yes, all HOA Board members are in this corrupt system together we all meet secretly each month to share how we steal, commit illegal acts, abuse association members and benefi ourselves cause Amin says so.

And to tell you all the truth I would not turn anything over to them if I had a say.

Amin must think posting here supports their cause. When in fact all it does is prove how limited, demanding, and simple some people can be.

For me I have seen enough. Find some other place to whine, squeal, and bitch.





Wow, another board nervous-wreck single-digit IQ board member crawled from under a rock to inject his literally 2 cents worth of ideas.

I must be hitting a raw nerve with you guys. You guys must be raking it in , so when some honest homeowner wants to inspect the books, you guys go neanderthal on him. I don't see any reason why somebody like you and 6 or 7 others on this site become such nervous-wrecks if money was not involved. There must be some kickbacks, bribes, submitting phony insurance claims, doctoring documents, which you guys are so good at , that makes you go apes for the fear of people in your own association do their own digging and send you little dictators to the pen. I don't believe you'll read this posting in its entirety but I never said "All" to those things you listed. This is another characteristic of board members. They are so nervous for dirt being dug up that they make things up. I just posted under external audit and tried to get help from people that have gone through similar situation. I also wrote that they have no good reason to withhold any financial documents from me. Now that they are doing exactly that, I suspect fraud and want to investigate it. Nobody is forcing you to read my postings. I can do fine without your utterly worthless opinions. I never said I want this, i want that and other demands. Just open their financials which I pay for to be created that has created little thick-headed dictators like you to hide them from me.

Now I don't think you will answer, but I want to expose you further , so that honest homeowners who read these posts don't get discouraged.


Do you see any good reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010



This is something requires an answer of yes or no. Even a simpleton, one-track minded person like you, should be able to answer that. I am not sure you're man enough though. Since you browsed through my posting , you should see I found another poster who wasn't man enough. May be you are. I doubt it.



AminB


Posts:0


08/14/2013 7:41 AM  
Posted By JonD1 on 08/14/2013 5:51 AM
Posted By ValerieS2 on 08/14/2013 5:12 AM
Jon, unfortunately (or fortunately), it is not your call to dismiss anyone from posting here.

May I suggest if you are so annoyed and put off that you stop engaging these "clowns"? Would you stop to rant and rave with a lunatic on the street? Do you not remember the timeless advice of your mother to "ignore them and they will stop"?

Oh I forgot - you want to make sure us gullible simpletons get the REAL scoop from YOU. (no one is buying it). The fact that you dedicate so much time and effort in discourse with them lends credence and validation to their complaints.




Valerie:

I was NOT dismissing Amin from posting I was commenting on the content of their posts. Now you might wish to twist the words around to find some conflict with me but that would be on you.

Amin does not know if the records they demand exist.

Amin does not have proof ANY fraud or crime was committed but they have no problem making such claims.

Amin has been invited to come to the MC's office and view the records they have. But that is not satisfactory for Amin.

Those posting here DO NOT and never had access to these records than why continue to ask US why they are not turned over????

What purpose does this serve???

And as I did NOT include you in the "gullible simpletons" grouping once again YOU twist words to find fault and issues. I seem to remember offering advice on more than one occasion that was in fact the REAL scoop whether you could understand or not.

I would have to wonder since you asked about my motivations, why YOU seem to rise to every occasion when someone claims to find fault with their HOA and accept those claims as facts?

It is my understanding I have the right to hold my opinions.
Whether you would agree matters litle to me. If you wish to consider Amin has a point aqfter repeating the same simpleminded demands over and over and oaver again with no results that would speak as much to your state of mind as that of Amin.

Perhaps, in your world you would waste time debating, examining, and considering Amin's point of view. I would not be bothered. I don't get paid enough for that. Oh wait I don't get paid at all.....

But according to Amin any HOA Board member makes money because we are all thieves, liars, and corrupt. EVIL was Amin's word of choice.

Thanks for the lecture Valerie but IMO Amin remains a clown.
Can they continue to post here? I would have to say YES because as you pointed out I don't have the power to prevent it. That does not mean I need to sit back and not comment.





I know. Your time is better spent doctoring documents, getting kickbacks and bribes from contractors. Then you wait for your big bonus, like a hurricane , so then you can go to town and make some real money, like submitting phony insurance claims. See how easy it is? You just put some papers together and wallah , you can thousands with the phony insurance claims. Why would you want to be disturbed by somebody like me?Meanwhile the honest homeowner works his butt off to make a buck.Thats what it is for you, isn't it?
EllieD
(Vermont)

Posts:446


08/14/2013 10:06 AM  
AminB,

Obviously there is no way I can know why you have been unable to get the “specific” information you want. I also do not know of any “legal” way, or other approach that you can take, other than through the courts.

As an owner, you should be able to get “financial information” - most anything that is not considered “privileged”. And I assume you realize that some of reports you want, such as “Actual vs. Budget”, and “Uncollected Maintenance Fees”, may need to be extracted using the available data.

Re the Audit Report, I have no idea what information you envision an audit report to contain. For Condo Associations I am familiar with, 100 units or so, self managed, the audit report might only be a single page, with a statement that the “books” have been examined and that all is in order, signed and dated - that sheet and nothing more.

Re the Actual vs. Budget Comparisons, this report might not be generated for your Association. For my Association it is not. So if I want Actual vs. Budget, I have to generate my own report from the financial data.
-------------

I am aware that ‘bad” things, fraud, can happen in Homeowner and Condominium Associations. And, I basically have no problem with any Owner wanting to investigate.

However, after reading your posts, a few things do puzzle me:

1. You wrote about questioning the way Hurricane Ike money was distributed”. Was this money received from some government agency or was it money received as the result of a claim again the Association’s Master Insurance Policy?

2. You wrote: ”I requested documents direct from the insurance company that wrote the check, it arrived sealed, only to be opened by the owner of the management company first and then handed over to me, opened.”

What was supposed to be in that envelope and how was it addressed?

Assuming the request was to the Insurance Company that wrote the Master Policy, I believe “the proper way” to reply would be direct from the Master Policy Insurance Co, to the Condominium Association (Management Company), since the Master Policy does not insure any individual Unit Owner, but rather the Association of all Owners in Common,

3. RE damage: What do your Condominium Documents, Declaration, CC&Rs, state about reconstructing buildings after damage? I do not recall that you have mentioned anything about what might be in your Documents.

For discussion purposes, for example Condo Documents I am familiar with, state that in the event of a partial destruction of the Property, the damaged or destroyed portions shall be reconstructed in substantial compliance with the original plans and specifications;

under certain circumstances the Association may be required, to replace common areas (walls, floors, roofs, etc.) and, as well, replace part of the units, which are not common areas, to the extent that they are described in … . If unit owners should decorate their Units beyond the standards set forth, the Association's sole responsibility will be to contribute the equivalent of the cost to restore the unit to standards set forth … .

4. RE: Insurance proceeds being paid to the Condominium Association, from Documents that I am familiar with: Any loss covered by the property policy, shall be adjusted with the association, but the insurance proceeds for that loss are payable to any insurance trustee designated for that purpose, or otherwise to the association, … .

Also, if typical, there should be words such as: The insurer waives its right to subrogation under the policy against any unit owner or member of the owner’s household.

And: If, at the time of a loss under the policy, there is other insurance in the name of a unit owner covering the same risk covered by the policy, the association’s policy provides primary insurance.

5. Leftover money, surplus funds: Documents I am familiar with specify that unless otherwise provided in the declaration, surplus funds are paid or credited to unit owners in proportion to their common expense liabilities.

I interpret that to mean that “leftover” money after the storm damage repairs were completed (any remaining money from the claim), can be used to make repairs where ever needed.

Just a guess on my part - but that might explain why the roof of a building not damaged by the storm, was repaired with (leftover) money received from the storm claim.

6. You posted that a board Member filed for $4,000 damages and something about a check and a deposit slip with a handwritten amount 5 times the amount of the check.

Of course it is none of my business, but I have no idea from what you have written, why you are questioning this. Does this have something to do with the $150,000 check received by the Association? Or does it have something to do with a Unit Owner’s claim against a Homeowner’s HO6 Insurance Policy?

7. You wrote “HOA received the money 3 days before (or postmarked 3 days before) the Annual meeting. They did not announce receiving it at the meeting. The check was over $150K. I found out by accident.”

If it were me, I would not read too much into that. If the check was received 3 weeks prior, not 3 days prior, then I might expect a report to be given at the Annual Meeting. But, if only received or postmarked 3 days before, practically speaking, that was hardly enough time “to get facts together” to present or report at the Meeting.

8. Uncollected maintenance fees: You wrote “Do you honestly think that I would find "uncollected maintenance fees"?

IMO, if there are uncollected fees, then that dollar amount should available to any Owner, and/or there should be enough financial data available so that you could calculate the amount of uncollected maintenance fees for 2009 and 2010.

But beyond that, you have me completely stumped.

What would that figure (amount) have to do with any insurance proceeds? Or how they were spent?

For a Condominium Association, what does “uncollected maintenance fees” have to do with the spending or the distributing of any Insurance monies received?

Depending, the paying Owners might have to pay more, or a Special Assessment might be needed to complete repairs.

What I cannot figure out, is why you would want that information, other than to know how “healthy” financially your Association is, was, - which of course, is a good enough reason.

Maybe I am missing something, but if buildings have been damaged and need to be repaired, it does not matter, if anyone in those buildings is behind in the payment of their Assessment - the buildings have to be repaired regardless, and it would be an Association expense.
-------------------

I am not an Attorney, and I do not work in the Insurance field. Just my thoughts, none of which are meant to discourage you from proceeding with “your investigation”.

I agree that any Unit Owner should be able to get any and all information about their Association that is not considered “privileged”.

The only reason of I can think of, as to why you are being denied NOW, is because you had your Attorney write a letter requesting the information. A letter from an Attorney puts an entirely different “spin” on things.

I do hope you will be able your get answers – and when you do – please report back and let us know the outcome.

Thank you. Ellie

PS: re your recent post “Don't tell me current board members or former board members don't have ANY experience in that.”

I have to admit, that as a Board Member I have never had to deal with “bad” things like fraud in my Association, and I personally do not know anyone who has.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10576


08/14/2013 10:34 AM  
THANK YOU Ellie D... This has been the SAME points brought up in over 4 pages of posts. I have to say your response has been the BEST out of ALL of them even my own. I applaud you and bow down to you. You totally ROCK!!!

However, I do know what the response is going to be.... Why can't I see these documents??? Your answers don't explain that...your as crooked as the rest of the thieves and crooks in the HOA industry....

Sooo DONE with this... Just had to send a shout out your way EllieD...

Former HOA President
AminB


Posts:0


08/14/2013 11:02 AM  
Posted By EllieD on 08/14/2013 10:06 AM
AminB,

Obviously there is no way I can know why you have been unable to get the “specific” information you want. I also do not know of any “legal” way, or other approach that you can take, other than through the courts.

As an owner, you should be able to get “financial information” - most anything that is not considered “privileged”. And I assume you realize that some of reports you want, such as “Actual vs. Budget”, and “Uncollected Maintenance Fees”, may need to be extracted using the available data.

Re the Audit Report, I have no idea what information you envision an audit report to contain. For Condo Associations I am familiar with, 100 units or so, self managed, the audit report might only be a single page, with a statement that the “books” have been examined and that all is in order, signed and dated - that sheet and nothing more.

Re the Actual vs. Budget Comparisons, this report might not be generated for your Association. For my Association it is not. So if I want Actual vs. Budget, I have to generate my own report from the financial data.
-------------

I am aware that ‘bad” things, fraud, can happen in Homeowner and Condominium Associations. And, I basically have no problem with any Owner wanting to investigate.

However, after reading your posts, a few things do puzzle me:

1. You wrote about questioning the way Hurricane Ike money was distributed”. Was this money received from some government agency or was it money received as the result of a claim again the Association’s Master Insurance Policy?

2. You wrote: ”I requested documents direct from the insurance company that wrote the check, it arrived sealed, only to be opened by the owner of the management company first and then handed over to me, opened.”

What was supposed to be in that envelope and how was it addressed?

Assuming the request was to the Insurance Company that wrote the Master Policy, I believe “the proper way” to reply would be direct from the Master Policy Insurance Co, to the Condominium Association (Management Company), since the Master Policy does not insure any individual Unit Owner, but rather the Association of all Owners in Common,

3. RE damage: What do your Condominium Documents, Declaration, CC&Rs, state about reconstructing buildings after damage? I do not recall that you have mentioned anything about what might be in your Documents.

For discussion purposes, for example Condo Documents I am familiar with, state that in the event of a partial destruction of the Property, the damaged or destroyed portions shall be reconstructed in substantial compliance with the original plans and specifications;

under certain circumstances the Association may be required, to replace common areas (walls, floors, roofs, etc.) and, as well, replace part of the units, which are not common areas, to the extent that they are described in … . If unit owners should decorate their Units beyond the standards set forth, the Association's sole responsibility will be to contribute the equivalent of the cost to restore the unit to standards set forth … .

4. RE: Insurance proceeds being paid to the Condominium Association, from Documents that I am familiar with: Any loss covered by the property policy, shall be adjusted with the association, but the insurance proceeds for that loss are payable to any insurance trustee designated for that purpose, or otherwise to the association, … .

Also, if typical, there should be words such as: The insurer waives its right to subrogation under the policy against any unit owner or member of the owner’s household.

And: If, at the time of a loss under the policy, there is other insurance in the name of a unit owner covering the same risk covered by the policy, the association’s policy provides primary insurance.

5. Leftover money, surplus funds: Documents I am familiar with specify that unless otherwise provided in the declaration, surplus funds are paid or credited to unit owners in proportion to their common expense liabilities.

I interpret that to mean that “leftover” money after the storm damage repairs were completed (any remaining money from the claim), can be used to make repairs where ever needed.

Just a guess on my part - but that might explain why the roof of a building not damaged by the storm, was repaired with (leftover) money received from the storm claim.

6. You posted that a board Member filed for $4,000 damages and something about a check and a deposit slip with a handwritten amount 5 times the amount of the check.

Of course it is none of my business, but I have no idea from what you have written, why you are questioning this. Does this have something to do with the $150,000 check received by the Association? Or does it have something to do with a Unit Owner’s claim against a Homeowner’s HO6 Insurance Policy?

7. You wrote “HOA received the money 3 days before (or postmarked 3 days before) the Annual meeting. They did not announce receiving it at the meeting. The check was over $150K. I found out by accident.”

If it were me, I would not read too much into that. If the check was received 3 weeks prior, not 3 days prior, then I might expect a report to be given at the Annual Meeting. But, if only received or postmarked 3 days before, practically speaking, that was hardly enough time “to get facts together” to present or report at the Meeting.

8. Uncollected maintenance fees: You wrote “Do you honestly think that I would find "uncollected maintenance fees"?

IMO, if there are uncollected fees, then that dollar amount should available to any Owner, and/or there should be enough financial data available so that you could calculate the amount of uncollected maintenance fees for 2009 and 2010.

But beyond that, you have me completely stumped.

What would that figure (amount) have to do with any insurance proceeds? Or how they were spent?

For a Condominium Association, what does “uncollected maintenance fees” have to do with the spending or the distributing of any Insurance monies received?

Depending, the paying Owners might have to pay more, or a Special Assessment might be needed to complete repairs.

What I cannot figure out, is why you would want that information, other than to know how “healthy” financially your Association is, was, - which of course, is a good enough reason.

Maybe I am missing something, but if buildings have been damaged and need to be repaired, it does not matter, if anyone in those buildings is behind in the payment of their Assessment - the buildings have to be repaired regardless, and it would be an Association expense.
-------------------

I am not an Attorney, and I do not work in the Insurance field. Just my thoughts, none of which are meant to discourage you from proceeding with “your investigation”.

I agree that any Unit Owner should be able to get any and all information about their Association that is not considered “privileged”.

The only reason of I can think of, as to why you are being denied NOW, is because you had your Attorney write a letter requesting the information. A letter from an Attorney puts an entirely different “spin” on things.

I do hope you will be able your get answers – and when you do – please report back and let us know the outcome.

Thank you. Ellie

PS: re your recent post “Don't tell me current board members or former board members don't have ANY experience in that.”

I have to admit, that as a Board Member I have never had to deal with “bad” things like fraud in my Association, and I personally do not know anyone who has.





Very fair post indeed and I will answer it.
After Ike, there were distributions made. I will not go into details as I have posted extensively here and also in the thread "External Audit" which I am the OP. Mostly board members and their friends got money from insurance as a for a $150K check. The HOA then distributed the check to them. Upon investigations I found out, one of the board members who has a rental unit about 6 feet away from my unit has filed for damages and got a $4k check with only a deposit and no other information except a handwritten amount about 5 times more than the actual check. The details are all in "External Audit". Nobody else including e filed for insurance damage in that little 16 unit section except her. The whole unit is 270 units.I took this information to a CPA who knows about auditing HOA books and he came up with 6 questions. I asked the first 3 and was given the info. Then a week later I asked the second set of 3 questions (which included the uncollected main. fees) and couple of other questions ,that I have posted numerous times for various "advice givers" . That is when they figured where I am going with this information , since they were professional questions and smelled of external audit. Well, they smelled it and knowing filing a lawsuit would be about the only way for me to get this info to my CPA, they refused to give me any more help and basically dared me to file a lawsuit.Please remember I have gone out of my way to tell both people over there and on this site, I need only the total uncollected main. fees and no names. After all, CPA does not need that. Hope that has cleared the questions that you had.The claim was filed against the master policy. The envelope is what i requested from the insurance company and after 3 months they sent it to me, however to the management company and they opened it first. It was supposed to have information about the insurance filing and distributions. Many parts were also blackened out. About the check, I am sure they knew weeks in advance how much was going to be issued. Its just that it was issued 3 days prior the Annual meeting. Please read "external audit" which is on second page, to clear any questions you might have and if not, feel free to ask me.
AminB


Posts:0


08/14/2013 11:10 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/14/2013 10:34 AM
THANK YOU Ellie D... This has been the SAME points brought up in over 4 pages of posts. I have to say your response has been the BEST out of ALL of them even my own. I applaud you and bow down to you. You totally ROCK!!!

However, I do know what the response is going to be.... Why can't I see these documents??? Your answers don't explain that...your as crooked as the rest of the thieves and crooks in the HOA industry....

Sooo DONE with this... Just had to send a shout out your way EllieD...




As you can see if there is a posting with relevant questions and something I can see that might help me, I will answer it and hope the poster might be able to help me. This "there's nothing to see here", or "there is no fraud in HOA", or
other BS won't work with me. I still believe common ordinary people handling other people's money with nobody to check on them can get corrupted easily.
I thought your final posting to "this poster" was the one before that. Can't even keep your word, ey?. You know what? You said you bow to this gentleman. This is a position you probably had with your buddy con guy that as you said were banging him. Contact the con guy, he night have another position for you...LOL
JonD1


Posts:0


08/14/2013 3:15 PM  
Posted By ValerieS2 on 08/14/2013 6:58 AM
Jon: "I have seen enough. Find some other place to whine, squeal, and bitch" definitely dismissive (and pointless)


Again you rambled on foolishly, completely missing my point. Par for the course though. Have a nice day!





Valerie:

After reviewing most of YOUR comments they seem to include nothing more than just YOUR opinions about how others post and what they say. Just when will YOU be sharing anything you know? And advice you have other than acting as class monitor for this site.

If you don't like my comments about Amin that would fall into the "that's life" grouping. And as to mssing YOUR point, they seem to be few and far between.

I do notice that passive/aggresssive kicker you added. Have a nice day.
Appears you might have some level of personal frustration which requires you come to this site and try to control the actions of others. Now that's pointless. But your probably would miss that connection. So lecture the folks who have you worked up at home or at work and serve as the source of your anger. Rather then attempting to guide me. I am in no need of your directions as to how I behave.

Have a wonderful evening..................
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11638


08/14/2013 4:43 PM  
Sitting back watching Val and Jon, They are interesting and several steps above Amin in many ways.

AminB


Posts:0


08/15/2013 6:32 AM  
Posted By JonD1 on 08/14/2013 3:15 PM
Posted By ValerieS2 on 08/14/2013 6:58 AM
Jon: "I have seen enough. Find some other place to whine, squeal, and bitch" definitely dismissive (and pointless)


Again you rambled on foolishly, completely missing my point. Par for the course though. Have a nice day!





Valerie:

After reviewing most of YOUR comments they seem to include nothing more than just YOUR opinions about how others post and what they say. Just when will YOU be sharing anything you know? And advice you have other than acting as class monitor for this site.

If you don't like my comments about Amin that would fall into the "that's life" grouping. And as to mssing YOUR point, they seem to be few and far between.

I do notice that passive/aggresssive kicker you added. Have a nice day.
Appears you might have some level of personal frustration which requires you come to this site and try to control the actions of others. Now that's pointless. But your probably would miss that connection. So lecture the folks who have you worked up at home or at work and serve as the source of your anger. Rather then attempting to guide me. I am in no need of your directions as to how I behave.

Have a wonderful evening..................





One thing you got right. You are in need of no direction. After all you must be by now good at kickbacks , submitting phony insurance claims, doctoring documents and etc. You don't need any help either. You are the type of a person who has bones buried in their HOA backyard that makes them defensive. They are just too scared that they be dug up. You just write and write and never bring any reasoning or anything worthwhile . You just ramble on without any rationalization.

How about answering the question I posted to you, or is that too much too ask for you to be a man and express your opinion one way or another?
AminB


Posts:0


08/15/2013 7:05 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 08/14/2013 4:43 PM
Sitting back watching Val and Jon, They are interesting and several steps above Amin in many ways.






Great, I am being judged by a spineless jellyfish. What don't you say even one of those ways? What is your unit of measurement?
Moral code? You wouldn't know anything about it since submitting phone insurance claims and getting kickbacks leaves you with no credibility to make judgements on somebody who is seeking the truth.

Character? you wouldn't know anything about that either. You first need to come up with the realization that you are not even man enough , sitting anonymously behind the screen and can't even express your opinion one way or another.

Is it time for you to grow up. Answer the following question:




Do you see any good reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010


Answer it you jellyfish
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/15/2013 11:32 PM  
Amin there is no need for calling someone a spineless jellyfish especially since you yourself admitted that you were allowed to inspect the records but were afraid of the hostile eyes. I fear what you are afraid of is that the "proof" you know is there isn't and you would look like a fool. Better to keep making baseless accusations and claim they won't let you see the records.

Posted By AminB on 07/27/2013 7:35 AM
Well, they have said I can come and review them, but I am afraid this is what they would want me to see. The management company is the one that has all the documents and she was the first one to refuse my request. Going there alone with all the hostile eyes following me and them knowing that I could probably get them in trouble with the law may not be the best option.




Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/16/2013 7:28 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/15/2013 11:32 PM
Amin there is no need for calling someone a spineless jellyfish especially since you yourself admitted that you were allowed to inspect the records but were afraid of the hostile eyes. I fear what you are afraid of is that the "proof" you know is there isn't and you would look like a fool. Better to keep making baseless accusations and claim they won't let you see the records.

Posted By AminB on 07/27/2013 7:35 AM
Well, they have said I can come and review them, but I am afraid this is what they would want me to see. The management company is the one that has all the documents and she was the first one to refuse my request. Going there alone with all the hostile eyes following me and them knowing that I could probably get them in trouble with the law may not be the best option.






Don't worry about that. I call you a spineless jellyfish too since you and that other spineless jellyfish Jon didn't answer it either. After all a man has convictions and stands by what he believes. You can answer yes or no. When there is no answer to a direct question, which takes the whole integrity of my HOA under question and there is no answer, I will call them as I see them. A spineless jellyfish. We are all anonymous here. Why can't you guys answer a question and express your opinion. Failing to do that , you are a spineless jellyfish.
I am only responding to this worthless postings because as I said plenty of times before, I don't want an honest homeowner get the wrong idea that they should leave HOAs alone, no matter how they try to keep documents away from him. This site , if somebody posts a harmless comment, then he might get an answer, but if he posts anything about HOA financial documents, then the whole gang moves in. It doesn't matter if its from another thread, all of you known gang members who keep responding to me show up. Its like a bunch of nervous-wreck people who see danger in their own bones being dug up. I have posted numerous times and proved to you ( who wrote if you go then you will know that they will not give them to you). To which I replied " I can save myself time and money by telling you I know already". That means I know they won't leave incriminating evidence for me to copy. I already know that when I WENT there to get insurance documents and they had to look it over before handing it over to me. Yet , like a mindless ,thick-headed, one-track minded board member whose sole purpose here is to preserve HOAs and their current structure, which is nobody should look over their shoulder, you keep bringing the same thing. You don't even read my answers. It probably comes from years of doctoring documents , submitting phony insurance claims, getting kickbacks and other illegal activities. You never fooled me with this phony "how to disband your HOA" thread. This is still to me a thread with a hidden agenda. Its still to me a thread that really says "don't disband you HOA because if you do a list of bad things can happen to you" ,like being sued by your neighbor or having to sell your common pool and other BS designed to keep HOAs in the form they currently are. In effect it means leave us alone.


Do you see any reason why the whole gang comes and defends an HOA that they don't even know what city its located or the name of it?


While you're thinking about that:

Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010


Don't be a spineless jellyfish. Answer them.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/16/2013 6:43 PM  
Amin, no one here to my knowledge has said you can't review the items you list, Tim and I even cited the section of Texas statutes that give you the right, you even admit you can inspect so why don't you. They are your documents to inspect not ours and you or your authorized representative are the ones that actually need to inspect them. You admitted on 07/27/13 that you were allowed to inspect them, today is 08/16/13 why haven't you inspected them. If you truly think your Board and/or MC is capable of doctoring them, all your delay is doing is giving them more time. So instead of playing the martyr and asking the same question over and over when you admit you can inspect them, go inspect them.

Amin:
Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

Glen:
You can, the law gives you the right but they are not magically going to come to you. Get up off your duff, quit whining about it, make a proper request under the statute and go do it.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/18/2013 7:33 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/16/2013 6:43 PM
Amin, no one here to my knowledge has said you can't review the items you list, Tim and I even cited the section of Texas statutes that give you the right, you even admit you can inspect so why don't you. They are your documents to inspect not ours and you or your authorized representative are the ones that actually need to inspect them. You admitted on 07/27/13 that you were allowed to inspect them, today is 08/16/13 why haven't you inspected them. If you truly think your Board and/or MC is capable of doctoring them, all your delay is doing is giving them more time. So instead of playing the martyr and asking the same question over and over when you admit you can inspect them, go inspect them.

Amin:
Do you see any reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010

Glen:
You can, the law gives you the right but they are not magically going to come to you. Get up off your duff, quit whining about it, make a proper request under the statute and go do it.



I don't think they are capable. I know they are capable. Still not answering the question, having selective memory and answering only what you want to answer. Its like nothing I write would matters to you, since you don't like to hear it. I have already answered your question . Check my prior posting to you starting at line 10 , ending in line 13.I won't waste time with you on that. By now probably you know, I am only answering for honest homeowner not to be dissuaded by board (gang) members who seem to be the first ones noticing anti-HOA comments.

Nothing that I have seen from you or other gang members is worth anything that I can use. The one comment that you refer to by your hero Tim , turned out to be useless. Yes there is a business code that makes them turn over financial documents , but when I asked Tim what if they won't and is there a state agency to complain, he admitted there is none and there is nothing I could do about it.The only option would be to file a lawsuit. If people see prison in their future, they would fight to the last minute and won't turn documents to incriminate them.I live in the real world. You only pretend that you live in the real wordl. I am checking your integrity by asking this question. Why don't you answer it directly?



Do you see any good reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010


I have asked you several times and never got an answer. I am not holding my breath this time either. Submitting phony insurance claims, getting kickback from contractors and other illegal activities doesn't leave you and other board members here on firm moral standing to answer.


How about answering this too , which you did not answer in my prior posting either.

Why are you defending an HOA that you don't even know its name, location, city ,etc.?

I don't think your level of integrity goes that high or that you are a man and express your opinion one way or another.






FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


08/18/2013 9:46 AM  
Anybody missing Mike about now?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11638


08/18/2013 11:19 AM  
Posted By FrankS10 on 08/18/2013 9:46 AM
Anybody missing Mike about now?





He is Mike like.......LOL
FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


08/18/2013 1:50 PM  
OK, I will take a shot at answering you, not knowing the laws of your state or the actual wording of your governing documents. I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express several nights ago.

I believe there is absolutely no reason for the BOD to not provide what you have requested, even if they legally are not obligated to. IF I were the secretary of your HOA, I would quickly scan the documents and e-mail them to you and your accountant. I would do this every time someone requested information, and if there was more than one request for the same information I would post it to the HOA web site (hopefully you have one?) in the 'members only' link.

The others are in agreement that I am not a leader, so let's just say I'm following from up front I agree that this is tedious yadda, yadda yadda... But this is what the Real Life of a Board Member ought to be IMO. If every time they answered completely and transparently, members, the rational ones, would soon realize everything is on the up and up and would send fewer requests because let's face it-we all have better things to do with our time. It is when questions go unanswered that people will naturally begin to think something is amiss and ask more questions. And yes, there will always be the jerk that no matter what answer you give, it just isn't good enough. If you didn't realize you would have to deal with all types of people before volunteering for your prestigious Board position, well then who's the dummy now?

And about that time we will hear how us members all need to get a life or just meet with the Board at the swimming pool after we are fully inebriated enough to just believe whatever us dummies are told.

How did I do? Any complaints with my answer, take it up with someone who cares

Just kidding of course! Hope things improve for you soon.

JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11638


08/18/2013 4:39 PM  
Frank

I would like to think that most of us agree with transparency. I know I do. I believe an owner can see anything. I believe an association should have normal, standard business reports and freely distribute such to all and anyone.

That said, how far does one go? It can soon become a cost item to the association.

As an example. A request comes in saying I want to know how much our association spent at Lowes Store #1234 in 2011 and 2012. Assuming one could go back and find the "specific" information, how much time/effort (money) does one spend on doing such?

All requests cannot simply/cheaply be honored. Yes we have boxes of receipts/computer files, etc., so feel free to come pour/look through them is sufficient for openness.



FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


08/18/2013 5:55 PM  
John,

Absolutely agree with your reasonable approach;

A) Cost paid by the requestee for information not readily available
B) And if they want it more detailed than standard reporting, provide the check register and invoices and allow them to go through it themselves.

Transparency is the key. I guess I don't see why it would be so difficult to scan all checks with invoices and post on the HOA site. Then let everyone answer their own questions that go deeper than the reports do. Explain what you are doing first with this process.

John, I try and have a sense of humor as sometimes I hear some really "unique" responses. You have always been open minded so I am not directing my humor at you. (In fact some question if it really is humor, but I think if I was wearing swimming attire while under the influence we would all get a good laugh
AminB


Posts:0


08/19/2013 6:52 AM  
Posted By FrankS10 on 08/18/2013 9:46 AM
Anybody missing Mike about now?



Probably you and the other gang (board) members who can't answer me
AminB


Posts:0


08/19/2013 7:15 AM  
Posted By FrankS10 on 08/18/2013 1:50 PM
OK, I will take a shot at answering you, not knowing the laws of your state or the actual wording of your governing documents. I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express several nights ago.

I believe there is absolutely no reason for the BOD to not provide what you have requested, even if they legally are not obligated to. IF I were the secretary of your HOA, I would quickly scan the documents and e-mail them to you and your accountant. I would do this every time someone requested information, and if there was more than one request for the same information I would post it to the HOA web site (hopefully you have one?) in the 'members only' link.

The others are in agreement that I am not a leader, so let's just say I'm following from up front I agree that this is tedious yadda, yadda yadda... But this is what the Real Life of a Board Member ought to be IMO. If every time they answered completely and transparently, members, the rational ones, would soon realize everything is on the up and up and would send fewer requests because let's face it-we all have better things to do with our time. It is when questions go unanswered that people will naturally begin to think something is amiss and ask more questions. And yes, there will always be the jerk that no matter what answer you give, it just isn't good enough. If you didn't realize you would have to deal with all types of people before volunteering for your prestigious Board position, well then who's the dummy now?

And about that time we will hear how us members all need to get a life or just meet with the Board at the swimming pool after we are fully inebriated enough to just believe whatever us dummies are told.

How did I do? Any complaints with my answer, take it up with someone who cares

Just kidding of course! Hope things improve for you soon.





No your answer was better however when board members do something amiss, it better not be financial and better not try to keep homeowners away from going the records which they pay for. Sounds like that spineless jellyfish John has only thickness around his head and thats all. I must have answered his worthless comments several times. We have a management company that holds all our documents and and they charge me for every copy. This seemingly simple concept seems to escape the jellyfish's brain and keeps bringing it up. I think its part of being a board member and getting nervous about having skeletons in their own HOA closet. He is a jerk.

Look, I am not here to get help from board members as how to investigate their books. After all, why would you guys risk that? Right? I am here to get info from people in similar circumstances and as homeowners. Board members have a great system of no checks and balances and they are used to having it their way. In that way they can submit phony insurance claims, get kickbacks from contractors and all the other goodies that they do under the table. Thats why nervous types like the jellyfish keep on crawling here and try to confuse the situation. Some board members actually fall for it.
FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


08/19/2013 12:49 PM  
Some of what you say must just be conjecture, right? Insurance fraud is a serious offense in every state I believe? Kick backs also?

I do feel that the Boards I have dealt with to some extent like to have a little room to "maneuver", and so if not always being open helps them achieve that goal, so be it. That is a long way from what you are suggesting has happened though. Typically I think the poor conduct is not organized as much as one or two strong personalities set the direction and the others fall in line ought of convenience, not really intending to rip anyone off.

Continue to argue very vocally, yet professionally, for transparency. Report any credible allegations of illegal conduct to your controlling governing authorities. Be prepared to go it alone until you show some progress. Not everyone is spineless, most just do not want to dedicate the time and energy to something they feel will most likely show little net gain for them. Not everyone stands on principle, in fact I would argue most do not.

Document all of your questions and their responses or lack of. Build a record that will be very difficult to "interpret" down the road.

I think there are a lot of good Board members here offering solid advice. Speaking for myself though, if one gives me the notion that they do not take their trustee responsibilities with the seriousness that is required, I discount their opinion completely. I want my questions answered, not be invited to a pool party.

Good luck and hang tough, but watch the tough language. Say the same thing with a little humor maybe?
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


08/20/2013 2:07 AM  
Posted By AminB on 08/19/2013 7:15 AM
We have a management company that holds all our documents and and they charge me for every copy.



Now we get to the heart of the matter as to why you won't inspect the books, it would cost you. What did you expect, the MC would spend time looking up your request and photocopy them for free? See subsection (i)

Sec. 209.005. ASSOCIATION RECORDS. (a) Except as provided by Subsection (b), this section applies to all property owners' associations and controls over other law not specifically applicable to a property owners' association.

(b) This section does not apply to a property owners' association that is subject to Chapter 552, Government Code, by application of Section 552.0036, Government Code.

(c) Notwithstanding a provision in a dedicatory instrument, a property owners' association shall make the books and records of the association, including financial records, open to and reasonably available for examination by an owner, or a person designated in a writing signed by the owner as the owner's agent, attorney, or certified public accountant, in accordance with this section. An owner is entitled to obtain from the association copies of information contained in the books and records.

(d) Except as provided by this subsection, an attorney's files and records relating to the property owners' association, excluding invoices requested by an owner under Section 209.008(d), are not records of the association and are not subject to inspection by the owner or production in a legal proceeding. If a document in an attorney's files and records relating to the association would be responsive to a legally authorized request to inspect or copy association documents, the document shall be produced by using the copy from the attorney's files and records if the association has not maintained a separate copy of the document. This subsection does not require production of a document that constitutes attorney work product or that is privileged as an attorney-client communication.

(e) An owner or the owner's authorized representative described by Subsection (c) must submit a written request for access or information under Subsection (c) by certified mail, with sufficient detail describing the property owners' association's books and records requested, to the mailing address of the association or authorized representative as reflected on the most current management certificate filed under Section 209.004. The request must contain an election either to inspect the books and records before obtaining copies or to have the property owners' association forward copies of the requested books and records and:

(1) if an inspection is requested, the association, on or before the 10th business day after the date the association receives the request, shall send written notice of dates during normal business hours that the owner may inspect the requested books and records to the extent those books and records are in the possession, custody, or control of the association; or

(2) if copies of identified books and records are requested, the association shall, to the extent those books and records are in the possession, custody, or control of the association, produce the requested books and records for the requesting party on or before the 10th business day after the date the association receives the request, except as otherwise provided by this section.

(f) If the property owners' association is unable to produce the books or records requested under Subsection (e) on or before the 10th business day after the date the association receives the request, the association must provide to the requestor written notice that:

(1) informs the requestor that the association is unable to produce the information on or before the 10th business day after the date the association received the request; and

(2) states a date by which the information will be sent or made available for inspection to the requesting party that is not later than the 15th business day after the date notice under this subsection is given.

(g) If an inspection is requested or required, the inspection shall take place at a mutually agreed on time during normal business hours, and the requesting party shall identify the books and records for the property owners' association to copy and forward to the requesting party.

(h) A property owners' association may produce books and records requested under this section in hard copy, electronic, or other format reasonably available to the association.

(i) A property owners' association board must adopt a records production and copying policy that prescribes the costs the association will charge for the compilation, production, and reproduction of information requested under this section. The prescribed charges may include all reasonable costs of materials, labor, and overhead but may not exceed costs that would be applicable for an item under 1 T.A.C. Section 70.3. The policy required by this subsection must be recorded as a dedicatory instrument in accordance with Section 202.006. An association may not charge an owner for the compilation, production, or reproduction of information requested under this section unless the policy prescribing those costs has been recorded as required by this subsection. An owner is responsible for costs related to the compilation, production, and reproduction of the requested information in the amounts prescribed by the policy adopted under this subsection. The association may require advance payment of the estimated costs of compilation, production, and reproduction of the requested information. If the estimated costs are lesser or greater than the actual costs, the association shall submit a final invoice to the owner on or before the 30th business day after the date the information is delivered. If the final invoice includes additional amounts due from the owner, the additional amounts, if not reimbursed to the association before the 30th business day after the date the invoice is sent to the owner, may be added to the owner's account as an assessment. If the estimated costs exceeded the final invoice amount, the owner is entitled to a refund, and the refund shall be issued to the owner not later than the 30th business day after the date the invoice is sent to the owner.

(j) A property owners' association must estimate costs under this section using amounts prescribed by the policy adopted under Subsection (i).

(k) Except as provided by Subsection (l) and to the extent the information is provided in the meeting minutes, the property owners' association is not required to release or allow inspection of any books or records that identify the dedicatory instrument violation history of an individual owner of an association, an owner's personal financial information, including records of payment or nonpayment of amounts due the association, an owner's contact information, other than the owner's address, or information related to an employee of the association, including personnel files. Information may be released in an aggregate or summary manner that would not identify an individual property owner.

(l) The books and records described by Subsection (k) shall be released or made available for inspection if:

(1) the express written approval of the owner whose records are the subject of the request for inspection is provided to the property owners' association; or

(2) a court orders the release of the books and records or orders that the books and records be made available for inspection.

(m) A property owners' association composed of more than 14 lots shall adopt and comply with a document retention policy that includes, at a minimum, the following requirements:

(1) certificates of formation, bylaws, restrictive covenants, and all amendments to the certificates of formation, bylaws, and covenants shall be retained permanently;

(2) financial books and records shall be retained for seven years;

(3) account records of current owners shall be retained for five years;

(4) contracts with a term of one year or more shall be retained for four years after the expiration of the contract term;

(5) minutes of meetings of the owners and the board shall be retained for seven years; and

(6) tax returns and audit records shall be retained for seven years.

(n) A member of a property owners' association who is denied access to or copies of association books or records to which the member is entitled under this section may file a petition with the justice of the peace of a justice precinct in which all or part of the property that is governed by the association is located requesting relief in accordance with this subsection. If the justice of the peace finds that the member is entitled to access to or copies of the records, the justice of the peace may grant one or more of the following remedies:

(1) a judgment ordering the property owners' association to release or allow access to the books or records;

(2) a judgment against the property owners' association for court costs and attorney's fees incurred in connection with seeking a remedy under this section; or

(3) a judgment authorizing the owner or the owner's assignee to deduct the amounts awarded under Subdivision (2) from any future regular or special assessments payable to the property owners' association.

(o) If the property owners' association prevails in an action under Subsection (n), the association is entitled to a judgment for court costs and attorney's fees incurred by the association in connection with the action.

(p) On or before the 10th business day before the date a person brings an action against a property owners' association under this section, the person must send written notice to the association of the person's intent to bring the action. The notice must:

(1) be sent certified mail, return receipt requested, or delivered by the United States Postal Service with signature confirmation service to the mailing address of the association or authorized representative as reflected on the most current management certificate filed under Section 209.004; and

(2) describe with sufficient detail the books and records being requested.

(q) For the purposes of this section, "business day" means a day other than Saturday, Sunday, or a state or federal holiday.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 926, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 2002.

Amended by:

Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1367, Sec. 6, eff. September 1, 2007.

Acts 2011, 82nd Leg., R.S., Ch. 1026, Sec. 2, eff. January 1, 2012.


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
AminB


Posts:0


08/20/2013 7:55 AM  
Posted By GlenL on 08/20/2013 2:07 AM
Posted By AminB on 08/19/2013 7:15 AM
We have a management company that holds all our documents and and they charge me for every copy.



Now we get to the heart of the matter as to why you won't inspect the books, it would cost you. What did you expect, the MC would spend time looking up your request and photocopy them for free? See subsection (i)

Sec. 209.005. ASSOCIATION RECORDS. (a) Except as provided by Subsection (b), this section applies to all property owners' associations and controls over other law not specifically applicable to a property owners' association.

(b) This section does not apply to a property owners' association that is subject to Chapter 552, Government Code, by application of Section 552.0036, Government Code.

(c) Notwithstanding a provision in a dedicatory instrument, a property owners' association shall make the books and records of the association, including financial records, open to and reasonably available for examination by an owner, or a person designated in a writing signed by the owner as the owner's agent, attorney, or certified public accountant, in accordance with this section. An owner is entitled to obtain from the association copies of information contained in the books and records.

(d) Except as provided by this subsection, an attorney's files and records relating to the property owners' association, excluding invoices requested by an owner under Section 209.008(d), are not records of the association and are not subject to inspection by the owner or production in a legal proceeding. If a document in an attorney's files and records relating to the association would be responsive to a legally authorized request to inspect or copy association documents, the document shall be produced by using the copy from the attorney's files and records if the association has not maintained a separate copy of the document. This subsection does not require production of a document that constitutes attorney work product or that is privileged as an attorney-client communication.

(e) An owner or the owner's authorized representative described by Subsection (c) must submit a written request for access or information under Subsection (c) by certified mail, with sufficient detail describing the property owners' association's books and records requested, to the mailing address of the association or authorized representative as reflected on the most current management certificate filed under Section 209.004. The request must contain an election either to inspect the books and records before obtaining copies or to have the property owners' association forward copies of the requested books and records and:

(1) if an inspection is requested, the association, on or before the 10th business day after the date the association receives the request, shall send written notice of dates during normal business hours that the owner may inspect the requested books and records to the extent those books and records are in the possession, custody, or control of the association; or

(2) if copies of identified books and records are requested, the association shall, to the extent those books and records are in the possession, custody, or control of the association, produce the requested books and records for the requesting party on or before the 10th business day after the date the association receives the request, except as otherwise provided by this section.

(f) If the property owners' association is unable to produce the books or records requested under Subsection (e) on or before the 10th business day after the date the association receives the request, the association must provide to the requestor written notice that:

(1) informs the requestor that the association is unable to produce the information on or before the 10th business day after the date the association received the request; and

(2) states a date by which the information will be sent or made available for inspection to the requesting party that is not later than the 15th business day after the date notice under this subsection is given.

(g) If an inspection is requested or required, the inspection shall take place at a mutually agreed on time during normal business hours, and the requesting party shall identify the books and records for the property owners' association to copy and forward to the requesting party.

(h) A property owners' association may produce books and records requested under this section in hard copy, electronic, or other format reasonably available to the association.

(i) A property owners' association board must adopt a records production and copying policy that prescribes the costs the association will charge for the compilation, production, and reproduction of information requested under this section. The prescribed charges may include all reasonable costs of materials, labor, and overhead but may not exceed costs that would be applicable for an item under 1 T.A.C. Section 70.3. The policy required by this subsection must be recorded as a dedicatory instrument in accordance with Section 202.006. An association may not charge an owner for the compilation, production, or reproduction of information requested under this section unless the policy prescribing those costs has been recorded as required by this subsection. An owner is responsible for costs related to the compilation, production, and reproduction of the requested information in the amounts prescribed by the policy adopted under this subsection. The association may require advance payment of the estimated costs of compilation, production, and reproduction of the requested information. If the estimated costs are lesser or greater than the actual costs, the association shall submit a final invoice to the owner on or before the 30th business day after the date the information is delivered. If the final invoice includes additional amounts due from the owner, the additional amounts, if not reimbursed to the association before the 30th business day after the date the invoice is sent to the owner, may be added to the owner's account as an assessment. If the estimated costs exceeded the final invoice amount, the owner is entitled to a refund, and the refund shall be issued to the owner not later than the 30th business day after the date the invoice is sent to the owner.

(j) A property owners' association must estimate costs under this section using amounts prescribed by the policy adopted under Subsection (i).

(k) Except as provided by Subsection (l) and to the extent the information is provided in the meeting minutes, the property owners' association is not required to release or allow inspection of any books or records that identify the dedicatory instrument violation history of an individual owner of an association, an owner's personal financial information, including records of payment or nonpayment of amounts due the association, an owner's contact information, other than the owner's address, or information related to an employee of the association, including personnel files. Information may be released in an aggregate or summary manner that would not identify an individual property owner.

(l) The books and records described by Subsection (k) shall be released or made available for inspection if:

(1) the express written approval of the owner whose records are the subject of the request for inspection is provided to the property owners' association; or

(2) a court orders the release of the books and records or orders that the books and records be made available for inspection.

(m) A property owners' association composed of more than 14 lots shall adopt and comply with a document retention policy that includes, at a minimum, the following requirements:

(1) certificates of formation, bylaws, restrictive covenants, and all amendments to the certificates of formation, bylaws, and covenants shall be retained permanently;

(2) financial books and records shall be retained for seven years;

(3) account records of current owners shall be retained for five years;

(4) contracts with a term of one year or more shall be retained for four years after the expiration of the contract term;

(5) minutes of meetings of the owners and the board shall be retained for seven years; and

(6) tax returns and audit records shall be retained for seven years.

(n) A member of a property owners' association who is denied access to or copies of association books or records to which the member is entitled under this section may file a petition with the justice of the peace of a justice precinct in which all or part of the property that is governed by the association is located requesting relief in accordance with this subsection. If the justice of the peace finds that the member is entitled to access to or copies of the records, the justice of the peace may grant one or more of the following remedies:

(1) a judgment ordering the property owners' association to release or allow access to the books or records;

(2) a judgment against the property owners' association for court costs and attorney's fees incurred in connection with seeking a remedy under this section; or

(3) a judgment authorizing the owner or the owner's assignee to deduct the amounts awarded under Subdivision (2) from any future regular or special assessments payable to the property owners' association.

(o) If the property owners' association prevails in an action under Subsection (n), the association is entitled to a judgment for court costs and attorney's fees incurred by the association in connection with the action.

(p) On or before the 10th business day before the date a person brings an action against a property owners' association under this section, the person must send written notice to the association of the person's intent to bring the action. The notice must:

(1) be sent certified mail, return receipt requested, or delivered by the United States Postal Service with signature confirmation service to the mailing address of the association or authorized representative as reflected on the most current management certificate filed under Section 209.004; and

(2) describe with sufficient detail the books and records being requested.

(q) For the purposes of this section, "business day" means a day other than Saturday, Sunday, or a state or federal holiday.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 926, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 2002.

Amended by:

Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1367, Sec. 6, eff. September 1, 2007.

Acts 2011, 82nd Leg., R.S., Ch. 1026, Sec. 2, eff. January 1, 2012.




Another board member tactic, huh? Trying to dismiss me? If you think I don't have any money to pay 10 cent per copy , even though I have explained many times why I don't go there and its not money as I have already a CPA waiting ,and it is futility, why do you keep posting material that requires money like filing with JP?

Its a common trait among gang (board) members. Its a result of years of unaccountability, doing under the table activities and other stuff that no body knows that has made you so insecure and nervous. Board (gang) members are also thick-headed and have selective memory.
I have already told you that advice from board members is useless to me. I have already told you that I know that lawsuit is my only resort o get to the bottom of this. I am on this site to get experience from honest homeowners that have been through similar situation not a board(gang) member like you. It would not be time efficient to spend time with a board member asking him how to discover his illegal activities and so that honest homeowners in your own HOA would get any ideas. I am sure with your attitude and one-track mind and thick-headedness you must have many homeowners who would love to find out if everything is on the up and up in your own community.

I ask you the questions again:


Do you see any good reason why I am not allowed to view the following documents from my HOA?

Financial Statements with Actual vs. Budget Comparison for 2009 and 2010

Reports by auditors who reviewed the Financial Statements for 2009 and 2010


I have asked you several times and never got an answer. I am not holding my breath this time either. Submitting phony insurance claims, getting kickback from contractors and other illegal activities doesn't leave you and other board members here on firm moral standing to answer.


How about answering this too , which you did not answer in my prior posting either.

Why are you defending an HOA that you don't even know its name, location, city ,etc.?

I don't think your level of integrity goes that high or that you are a man and express your opinion one way or another.


For you I have another question:

What is your take compare to an average street gang? We're all anonymous. You can divulge that. Its just so interesting to me that I have got you and a few other characters here so nervous It must be a lot when they all congregate here and try to debunk somebody they don't even know, or try to dodge questions put to them which they can answer yes or no anonymously behind a computer monitor.

I guess I'll hear from you in a couple of days, with you hoping I have forgotten how I have put you in an embarrassing spot.
FrankS10
(Kansas)

Posts:276


08/20/2013 9:44 AM  
Amin,

In all sincerity I believe you have received your answer. I don't think anyone here can think of a good reason why you can not see/have a copy of the documents you mention. I can not think of any reason why not.

I don't believe you are making anyone nervous or putting them on the spot. Yet again you mention illegal activities and I guess more than just me is wondering why you have not reported these activities. That is my question to you-have you reported the illegal activities you allege to the controlling authorities? And a follow-up to that-if not, why not? And if yes, what have you been told so far?

Thanks.
GnomeX
(Washington)

Posts:253


08/20/2013 10:13 AM  
Just tell Amin what he wants to hear. All us Board members are liars and cheats in on "the take". Our conspiracy has been uncovered. Our secret volcano lair has been unearthed.
GnomeX
(Washington)

Posts:253


08/20/2013 10:21 AM  
Next special assessment, we plan to divert those funds to our sharks with frikkin laser beams.
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