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Subject: Parking in the street
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Author Messages
JanetM
(Florida)

Posts:13


03/06/2007 10:00 AM  
I am a board member, I have a resident in our neighborhood who was the past president, we have have problems with him parking in the street, we had a general hoa meeting to discuss with the neighbors how they wanted to handle this problem, in our bylaws it does state that there is to be no parking in the street, on the first occasion the neighbors wanted the vehicle off the street, at that time we discussed a solution, if the vehicle was not removed and parked in the driveway, he would be fined $50.00 the first day and $10.00 each additional, he finally moved the vehicle, everyone was greatful as it was a F350 dually,(large truck) it was a saftey issue for the children playing in our culdesac, however he is now parking back in the street with a smaller truck, we have sent him a 2nd notice to move the vehicle, giving him 48 hours to park in the driveway, he advised us the board that if he fines us he will sue the HOA and the board members. He is now in the finable stage, I am at a loss, please help
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/06/2007 10:07 AM  
Janet:

Does your hoa own the streets or is it the city/county?
JanetM
(Florida)

Posts:13


03/06/2007 10:16 AM  
They are actually county, I have crossed this road before, I do have a petition signed by the owners to have no parking signs placed on the street, however if we dont have to put the out that would be great, just in case someone needs parking for a short time for a get together.
JM2
(Oregon)

Posts:439


03/06/2007 10:41 AM  
Hi Janet:

[I'm in Oregon]. Control of parking on the public streets is always a problem. The ideal way is if the HOA rules conform to the city/county rules and they are willing to enforce theirs. Often, that isn't the case.

However, the city/county may choose to allow you (the HOA) to enforce their rules. If that's the case, it's best to involve the HOA's lawyer and get things in writing.

Generally, the issue of boats/trailers/RV's/etc. is easier to enforce than a pickup truck, even if it's a big one (such as the F350) since some people drive those as their main vehicle. It's easier if it's clearly a work truck (frame for ladders on it, equipment mounted in back, sign on the door, etc.) because it's more clearly a work vehicle than their passenger vehicle in those cases.

In some cases the Board decides that it just cannot patrol parking in the street by cars and passenger trucks and chooses not to enforce the rule against this type of vehicle, but still enforce against the RV's/boats/trailers/etc. Other times, the Board may grant a variance for a particluar reason (I had a utility worker who was on 24/7/365 emergency response and had to park his truck in the community, for instance).

If he's willing to go to court, I would suggest that the Board consult with the HOA's lawyer and then proceed as advised.

Some alternatives would be:
1) If the street is narrow, request that the city/county put up No Parking signs and enforce. They need to keep a 20-foot clearance for emergency vehicles per the Uniform Fire Code.
2) Amend the documents to allow parking of passenger cars and pickup trucks that are not work vehicles (no signs on the truck, no racks, no ladders, no work equipment stored in it). Work with your lawyer if you choose this route.
3) Go to court to enforce the covenants (if your lawyer thinks the courts will decide in the HOA's favor) without assessing fines, if your enforcement resolution allow this as an option.

By the way, is his garage full of junk so he can't use it? Or is it just "inconvenient" for him to have to shuffle vehicles?

J. Patrick Moore, CMCA
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:5067


03/06/2007 10:54 AM  
Janet, you put 'the cart before the horse'. Before sending a violation notice you need to establish there is a violation. If your Declaration of CC&Rs state that be no parking is allowed in the street AND the street are private OR the streets have been didicated and are now public but the dedication plat states the association reserves the right to enforce existing restrictions in the CC&Rs, then you can legally enforce the restriction. Otherwise, it can be difficult to impossible to enforce this restriction on a public street no matter what is stated in your CC&Rs.
JanetM
(Florida)

Posts:13


03/06/2007 10:58 AM  
he has a nice 2 car garage, he parks one car in the garage and another car in the driveway, he says it is principal and he will park anywhere he wants to, he has complyed once before, now he is just being stubburn. He has plenty of room in the driveway for this vehicle, I personally park two cars and an f350 in my driveway.
JanetM
(Florida)

Posts:13


03/06/2007 11:00 AM  
roger, he has complied before, no he is just being a jerk to put it lightly,
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/06/2007 11:42 AM  
Janet:

If they are public streets then you have no jurisdiction unless the county and your hoa have an agreement for you to enforce their rules. Our streets are public and we don't even try to enforce anything.

Even if he complied in the past doesn't mean he has to now. As Roger said you should get your ducks in a row before going after him. You need to ask yourself and your board is it worth spending the time and resources on it, only you can answer that question.
DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:664


03/06/2007 12:49 PM  
[quote]Posted By BradP on 03/06/2007 11:42 AM

Janet:

If they are public streets then you have no jurisdiction unless the county and your hoa have an agreement for you to enforce their rules.
[/quote]

I would question that statement. As long as complying with a neighborhood rule does not cause the homeowner to be in violation of the county code, the neighborhood still has the right to enforce their own rules. An HOA may have rules which are more strict than surrounding code, but may not remove restrictions placed by surrounding code.

I base my claim on a recent experience where I required a homeowner who is also real-estate agent to remove his real-estate signs from the sidewalks in our neighborhood. Besides being in violation of our CC&Rs, placing signs in the sidewalk is a violation of city code. He claimed that because the sidewalks were "public right-of-way" that it was up to the city to enforce their code and it was out of our jurisdiction. I checked with our City Attorney, and he told me that while the city does have the right to enforce their laws within the neighborhood, that does not mean that the neighborhood gives up their rights to enforce their own rules.

I'm particularly interested in this topic because we are starting to have similar issues with regards to parking. Our CC&Rs state "Parking of automobiles or other vehicles on any part of the properties or on public ways adjacent thereto shall be prohibited except within garages, carports, or other approved areas." That seems to be pretty clear in saying that the only place that a vehicle can be parked is in the garage. However that statement is in the section dealing with "Vehicle Storage" which otherwise is talking about storing trailers and RVs. So now we are starting to hear people say that that part of the CC&Rs only means that they can't "store" their car in the driveway or the street long-term. Overnight parking of the car that they drive to work every day should be allowed.

Since we already allow trailers and RVs to be parked for up to 48 hours for loading/unloading, I'm personally inclined to agree. We'll probably be taking this up at our next Board meeting, so we'll see what the rest of the Board thinks.

JC3


Posts:290


03/06/2007 2:41 PM  
In our HOA, though the previous boards would prefer to have no on street parking, since the streets belong to the city, they follow city parking restrictions.
CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:826


03/06/2007 4:13 PM  
[quote]Posted By RogerB on 03/06/2007 10:54 AM

Janet, you put 'the cart before the horse'. Before sending a violation notice you need to establish there is a violation. If your Declaration of CC&Rs state that be no parking is allowed in the street AND the street are private OR the streets have been didicated and are now public but the dedication plat states the association reserves the right to enforce existing restrictions in the CC&Rs, then you can legally enforce the restriction. Otherwise, it can be difficult to impossible to enforce this restriction on a public street no matter what is stated in your CC&Rs.[/quote]


JanetM,

It appears that you have received some very good advice thus far. I too have been dealing with repeat offenders for several months. (Street parking, basketball goals left out overnight, garbage cans going out two days before trash pick up and staying out well into the weekend, “winter weeds” ect.)

As stated in previous posts, I too have found it very difficult to enforce the CC&R on “street parking” Some days it seems like a losing battle, but you must be consistent in your enforcements.

The streets in my community are owned and maintained by the city as well. We (the board) have printed several hundred specific (brightly colored 8 1/2” x 11”) parking violation notices. Simply stating that it is not only a violation of our CC&Rs it’s also a violation of city ordinance to park in the street.

The post written by JM2 lists several alternatives that may work for you as well. As we have, you may want to make yourself a “reminder notice” and start putting them under the windshield wiper of vehicles parked in the streets. Sometimes you get lucky and other times you’re just wasting your time. But you can not allow it to stop you from enforcing the CC&Rs.

I feel since you have the same person to be found in violation, it maybe worth trying.

It’s going to take a lot of work, but if it means that much to you then you and the other board members will need to do daily inspections for vehicles parked in the streets. He will begin to wonder if there is one on his truck, “if” others in violation got one or not, and if not why? You must be consistent. It may not do anything at all, but you never know he may just get sick of taken them off his truck and start parking in the driveway once again.

I’m the chief editor of our monthly newsletter and I will randomly thank homeowners for abiding by the CC&Rs.

Thanking those that are abide by the CC&Rs, appose to acknowledging those that do not!

Our neighborhood has defiantly cleaned up in the past couple months. It monotonous at times, but well worth it once you start to see results.

Good luck,
Chuck W.



Attachment: 13613318871.doc


Charles E. Wafer Jr.
MelissaM
(California)

Posts:9


03/06/2007 5:08 PM  
What can a HOA do in this case if the HOA owns the streets?
DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:798


03/07/2007 4:34 AM  
I don't see how a HOA can enforce ANY rule for property that is not either part of the deed restricted (owners lots) or common area for the HOA. If the street is PUBLIC and there was no agreement during the development of the subdivision, I would think that it is up to the city to enforce their rules ie parking/no parking.

For those who say the HOA can enforce, just because their rules match the city's for these public streets, under what authority. Think of it this way, exactly where does the HOA jurisdiction end, on the PUBLIC streets within the HOA? A block away from the HOA? 2 blocks? ...you get the idea.


Further, a HOA can't tell someone from outside the community not to park on a public street that is within the HOA. (Unless the city gave it that authority somehow).
PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347


03/07/2007 5:52 AM  
When the HOA 'owns' the streets, they can:
- purchase & install NO Parking Signs
- add a 'R&R' to further clarify the CC&Rs: the Board will enforce the CC&Rs whereby there will be no parking on street/s. However, the 'rule' can state for 'special situations' (unloading/loading, parties & overflow of visitors), pls. alert Board to your temporary parking situation w/date/time to avoid a fine being levied.

You would want the Prop.Mgr. to call the owner to 'remind' him there is no parking...if continued, there will be a fine each time it occurs.
PaulM
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/07/2007 6:23 AM  
Dwight:

Out of curiousity, did the owner that you required to remove their sign challenge you in a court of law over it? I can require homeowners to do just about anything I want, it doesn't mean it is legal and would withstand a court ruling.
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:5067


03/07/2007 7:07 AM  
Brad, I don't recall removal of a sign being challenged in court. It probably has and I would presume the HOA would prevail as long as the specific restriction claimed to be violated was in the CC&Rs. My experience has been that an owner simply removes the sign when they are notified.
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/07/2007 7:16 AM  
Roger:

I understand what you are saying, I hope you didn't miscontrue my comment. Dwight made the comment that they made him take the sign down, that may be so but it doesn't necessarily mean the hoa has the authority to do so. I can send a letter to a homeowner and ask them to keep the blinds closed in their home (bad example, can't think this morning) and threaten to fine them if they don't. If they comply with my request it doesn't mean I am right.
DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:664


03/07/2007 8:26 AM  
[quote]Posted By BradP on 03/07/2007 6:23 AM

Dwight:

Out of curiousity, did the owner that you required to remove their sign challenge you in a court of law over it? I can require homeowners to do just about anything I want, it doesn't mean it is legal and would withstand a court ruling. [/quote]

OK, maybe instead of saying I required him to remove his sign I should have said that I enforced our CC&Rs which don't allow signs.

He threatened to take me to court, but as I stated, our CC&Rs don't allow signs in the common areas. The sidewalks within the neighborhood boundaries are considered part of the common areas. According to our attorney and the City Attorney, that gives the Association the legal standing to not only require the agent to remove those signs, but to also take action to remove them if the agent refuses to.

In this specific case, I came into the neighborhood and found some open-house signs placed in the planters at the neighborhood entrance and in the greenways at some corners. Since the HOA had been receiving complaints from other homeowners about signs of this type, I went to the house in question to explain to the agent that our CC&Rs don't allow those signs and to ask him to remove them. I have done this with other agents. Most of them are very cooperative and will immediately remove their signs. At the time I did not know that this agent was also a homeowner in the neighborhood (he had never been to an HOA meeting or participated in any neighborhood events).

This agent became very belligerent with me telling me that he knew property law and that since he was also a homeowner, I couldn't tell him that he couldn't put his signs out. I repeated that the CC&Rs don't allow them, and told him that since he was a homeowner he was free to go through the process of getting the CC&Rs amended. I then left.

An hour later as I was leaving the neighborhood, I found that he had moved his signs out of the planter and greenways and they were now placed on the sidewalks. Not wanting to go through his abuse again, I removed the signs and placed them in the community pump house. They were returned to him that evening when he requested them back. My actions were what were recommended to me by the original developer's Property Manager when we took over the association, as well as the Management Company that we hired.

I feel that part of this problem was caused by the city's Code Enforcement officer. The agent had apparently called her at some point, and she told him that while placing signs on the sidewalks was a violation of city code, it was up to the city to enforce their codes, not the Association. The agent took this to mean that if the signs are on the sidewalks or streets, then there is nothing that the Association can do about it. When I called Code Enforcement to find out what she had said to him, she confirmed this view. Since this was contrary to what I had been told, and since the agent was threatening me with legal action, I contacted the HOA's attorney who among other things recommended that I also contact the City Attorney for clarification. The City Attorney assured me that while it is up to the city to enforce their codes, and even though the sidewalks are also part of the public right-of-way, that does not remove the Association's right to enforce their CC&Rs. The City Attorney also contacted the Code Enforcement officer and the agent to explain that point to them as well.

To make a long post even longer, this agent did show up at our last HOA meeting and announced that he was running for the Board. During his introduction speech, he went on about the current board violating Constitutional Rights and stealing personal property. He lost the election.

So bottom line, based on this instance, I would still say that an HOA has the right to enforce their CC&Rs within their neighborhood boundaries, even if the violation is in the public right-of-way.
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/07/2007 8:31 AM  
Dwight:

I won't disagree with your argument about signs being in the right of way, I am assuming that property was deeded as part of the hoa or the owner as an easement. However, I doubt the streets were, back to the original question, I do think there is a huge difference in what you are saying with and a street. I may be wrong, happens several times a day, but I think there is.
DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:664


03/07/2007 8:51 AM  
We did have a different real-estate agent who tried to make that claim and started placing his signs on the side of the street, basically in the same place that people would park. We removed his signs also. I'm not 100% positive, but since this was the agent that homeowners were originally complaining about, I'm pretty sure I asked the City Attorney about this case also.

Actually, I don't think the difference is street vs sidewalk so much as signs vs cars. Our CC&Rs are pretty clear with regards to signs: they aren't allowed in the neighborhood. They aren't so clear when it comes to cars. As I mentioned, the statement about no parking in the streets or driveways is in the section dealing with vehicle storage. So in our case the question is more about at what point does "parking" become "storage"?
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


03/07/2007 9:48 AM  
Dwight:

We deal with "storage" vehicles on streets by contacting the police department. They issue a warning. Smart owners just move their vehicle every other day or so, but there is one with a flat tire just down the street from me. It is obvious that isn't going anywhere soon.
NancyL1
(Florida)

Posts:7


03/13/2007 3:55 PM  
[quote]Posted By JanetM on 03/06/2007 10:00 AM

I am a board member, I have a resident in our neighborhood who was the past president, we have have problems with him parking in the street, we had a general hoa meeting to discuss with the neighbors how they wanted to handle this problem, in our bylaws it does state that there is to be no parking in the street, on the first occasion the neighbors wanted the vehicle off the street, at that time we discussed a solution, if the vehicle was not removed and parked in the driveway, he would be fined $50.00 the first day and $10.00 each additional, he finally moved the vehicle, everyone was greatful as it was a F350 dually,(large truck) it was a saftey issue for the children playing in our culdesac, however he is now parking back in the street with a smaller truck, we have sent him a 2nd notice to move the vehicle, giving him 48 hours to park in the driveway, he advised us the board that if he fines us he will sue the HOA and the board members. He is now in the finable stage, I am at a loss, please help[/quote]

Sticky situation! Seems like this man has a grudge against the Board or Association and is just being obstinate. I don't know under what ground he thinks he can sue but, as past President, he probably knows that lawsuits can be expensive for the Association regardless of whether they win or not. Check your city ordinances or contact the police dept. to see under what circumstances street parking is legal or not. Our community has a lot of home wherein live extended families with a number of adults. This means a number of cars parked on the street even though it is technically against the rules. The police can't do anything as long as the car is legally parked.
JanetM
(Florida)

Posts:13


03/14/2007 4:35 AM  
I have called an emergency board meeting, I have scheduled it out for two weeks and informed the homeowners, I have also asked for any concerns to be placed in writing per our bylaws to see if anyone still has a problem with the situation, Like I said he has moved it before and now is just being a jerk about it because we sent him another letter. I dont like being the mean president but if he doesnt follow the rules then I am facing someone else doing what they want to do and it just makes the situation worse. I am at my wits end.
MikeS1


Posts:0


03/14/2007 4:41 AM  
Janet - I scanned this post, but couldn't tell where you're located. In which County and state are you located?
JanetM
(Florida)

Posts:13


03/14/2007 4:49 AM  
pinellas county florida
HaroldS1
(Arizona)

Posts:314


03/14/2007 10:23 AM  
Janet - another solution is to have the Florida legislature pass a bill to eliminate HOAs control of public streets. Arizona is 1/3 there now with the Senate overwhelmingly passing such a bill which is now in the House where it is expected smooth sailing and then on to the Gov for signature. Street parking restrictions are probably the biggest bone of contention in HOAs. Arguments that this will allow huge motor homes, boats, etc is not correct - most cities already have laws controlling that type of parking.
Good luck. Harold
MikeS1


Posts:0


03/14/2007 10:28 AM  
Virginia passed laws a few years ago so that if residents successfully petition the County, they may be able to establish a Restricted Parking District or Community Parking District on State maintained roads within the community. CPDs disallow parking heavy trucks over 12,500 gvw, RV's, any type of trailers, boats certain types of large buses, etc. Parking in Northern Va is at a premium and parking these types of vehicles in a residential community puts a huge strain on parking, not to mention there is a terrible problem with site distance or visability. (IE-Kids darting out in traffic from behind huge trucks).
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


03/15/2007 7:10 AM  
[quote]Posted By JanetM on 03/06/2007 10:00 AM

I am a board member, I have a resident in our neighborhood who was the past president, ............... however he is now parking back in the street with a smaller truck, we have sent him a 2nd notice to move the vehicle, giving him 48 hours to park in the driveway, he advised us the board that if he fines us he will sue the HOA and the board members. He is now in the finable stage, I am at a loss, please help[/quote]

If you're not going to enforce the CC&Rs you might as well not have any. He is a member of the association, he cannot park in the street if the CC&Rs prohibit such parking. Fine him, let him sue if he wants to.

If the vehicle is not owned by an HOA member you probably cannot enforce the CC&Rs against the owner but you can monitor the vehicle for town, city, or county parking violations.


Ron
SC
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:5067


03/15/2007 10:26 AM  
I agree with Ronald. Current and past Board members must be treated exactly the same as any other owner/member. Restrictions should be enforced equally and consistently.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


03/15/2007 2:32 PM  
Roger I agree with you and Ronald about treating past as well as current BOD members the same; the question it seems to me is does the HOA have the authority to enforce the covenants on roads not owned by them. A lot of times the reason past BOD members know what they can get away with is because they know where the bodies are buried so to speak.

The reason he may be "thumbing his nose" at the rule is because he knows that it is not enforceable or he may just be a jerk. It seems to me that before fining/towing etc. I would check with the County to make sure they actually have the power to enforce; if they do then fine away. Or he might be violating a County ordinance and the sheriff would be happy to write a ticket which would cost more than an HOA's fine.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MartyD
(Florida)

Posts:43


03/22/2007 7:55 AM  
Most county owned streets are "NO Parking" unless otherwise stated or designated parking spaces are cleraly marked. This is a county CODE ENFORCEMENT issue. If you feel that this guy's parking has become a public safety issue...pick up the phone and call your county code enforcement dept. most have email site as well and normally respond very quickly if childrens safety is a concern...
CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:826


03/22/2007 8:09 AM  
Posted By MartyD on 03/22/2007 7:55 AM
Most county owned streets are "NO Parking" unless otherwise stated or designated parking spaces are cleraly marked. This is a county CODE ENFORCEMENT issue. If you feel that this guy's parking has become a public safety issue...pick up the phone and call your county code enforcement dept. most have email site as well and normally respond very quickly if childrens safety is a concern...





MartyD,

Good advice. I have been involved with a similar situation in my HOA. I too have learned to address many of these violations with the help of local law enforcement, (loud music, weeds, street parking, speeding vehicles, etc.) IMO, that seems to be the best way to get results without jeopardizing the wealth fare and safety of those living in the community.

Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.
MartyD
(Florida)

Posts:43


03/22/2007 8:21 AM  
We had a homeowner that refused to remove weeks of garbage from in front of her garage as well as the grass in her back yard had started to peek over her 6' privacy fence. (normally we do not convern ourselves with police-ing back yards) but on several occasion neighbors had spotted rats running in and out of her yard. After several attempts of threating to clean it up and apply liens to her property, we picked up the phone and called code enforcement and within 24 hours they were on her door steps reading her the riot act. She singing a different tune these days.

Bottom line....don't be afraid to pick up the phone and let your local government handle some of you problem areas...it will save you a lot of stress.
JanetM
(Florida)

Posts:13


03/22/2007 9:28 AM  
We had a board meeting last night, we have one board member that has sided with the parking violator saying we should have that grey area and allow the parking, but inforce other minor issues, it got heated, and I resigned as the president. She wants the black, white and grey area, I advised her we couldnt have a gray area, it was either black or white and not in between, just total frustration. So we will see what happens next.
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


03/22/2007 10:14 AM  
Posted By MartyD on 03/22/2007 8:21 AM
..........
Bottom line....don't be afraid to pick up the phone and let your local government handle some of you problem areas...it will save you a lot of stress.




That's the best way when possible. We have a homeowner selling a house and he put all his trash and garbage out on Saturday when the next collection will be Thursday. One phone call tho the city code enforcement office and the trash was gone the same day.

Ron
SC
PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347


03/22/2007 11:04 AM  
Hooray for the local government stepping in. It's about time we go to them with resident issues and they go to bat for us!

Now...if we can only get them involved with a non-payment of assessments,
then we're getting somewhere!!!
JanetM
(Florida)

Posts:13


03/22/2007 11:14 AM  
I just called the county and she told me it was up to the sherriff. So no help there
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


03/22/2007 11:23 AM  
Posted By JanetM on 03/22/2007 11:14 AM
I just called the county and she told me it was up to the sherriff. So no help there




The county, city, sherriff, etc. can only help if a law or ordinance is being violated. In your situation, that may not be the case. If your CC&Rs prohibit parking on the streets and you don't take action against this person, you will not be able to take action against anyone. And you may have trouble enforcing other covenant items. You'll be accused of "favoritism".

Ron
SC
MarloM
(Texas)

Posts:17


04/11/2007 12:58 AM  
This is a sticky issue for me as I have a three car garage, I own four vehicles and we have two teen drivers in the family. My CC&Rs prohibit parking on the street and also in the driveway. City code does not prohibit parking in the street. There are many homes in my neighborhood who are in the same predicament as I am. Is it really possible that I am not allowed to park in my own driveway or in front of my home? If the PM can assess fines for these infractions can they try to sue me for the fines? Please keep in mind that all of my vehicles are in good condition are not unsightly.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10584


04/11/2007 4:22 AM  
It's NOT the PM that is assessing you the fines. It is the HOA board. The PM is a Sub-contractor to the HOA and only has the authority to do what the board tells them they can. (unless it's part of their defined duties).
Most states, Fines can NOT be the basis for a lien or foreclosure. Plus, suing you is NOT the correct or best way for them to collect. I am sure they will do it but it isn't smart to sue if they can lien/foreclose instead.
Are your streets Public or private? If they are still private, then your in quite a pickle. If they are public, you may be able to park on your street but be subject to the police ticketing which you HAVE to pay. As for your driveway parking, that's too complicated. I would park in my driveway sooner than the street just based on the fact the street is MUCH more dangerous to park in and damage it can recieve there.
May I add... You have teenagers and they are home long enough to leave a vehicle there? You must be one of those "good" parents that really do know where their kids are!!!

Former HOA President
BradD2
(Florida)

Posts:418


04/11/2007 4:42 AM  
Janet, I suggest you check the Pinellas County ordinances.

I live in Orange County, FL and during one meeting where we were talking about creating a summary of the covenants for people to see them in English our VP went off on being allowed to park where he pleases because he pays for a tag on his vehicle. In addition, to that he thinks it is perfectly fine to park a large RV in the street. Our covenants say that RVs can only be parked there during active loading and unloading and that you can park on the street only after all space is used in the garage and driveway. His view is that there must be some law at the state or county level that trumps our governing documents.

The problem is that we have people of all nationalities and many use their garage as a kitchen, living room or game room. Others just park on the street so that they don't have to back out. I checked the Orange County ordinances and it clearly says that you can park on a street only when there is no availability off the street. I never heard anything more about it after I sent the email to the ordinances and we decided not to summarize the covenants yet. But I am betting that you can find similar county ordinances for Pinellas.
CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:826


04/11/2007 6:08 AM  
Posted By MarloM on 04/11/2007 12:58 AM
This is a sticky issue for me as I have a three car garage, I own four vehicles and we have two teen drivers in the family. My CC&Rs prohibit parking on the street and also in the driveway. City code does not prohibit parking in the street. There are many homes in my neighborhood who are in the same predicament as I am. Is it really possible that I am not allowed to park in my own driveway or in front of my home? If the PM can assess fines for these infractions can they try to sue me for the fines? Please keep in mind that all of my vehicles are in good condition are not unsightly.







MarloM,

I wish I had an answer for you concerning your parking dilemma. I too am dealing with a similar situation, although parking in your own driveway, WOW, that’s a bit extreme! IMO (I'm sure I'll be told otherwise, about that statement)

I can hear is now “ you signed on the dotted line, agreeing to the CC&R, by-laws and R&R”...

and I’m not disputing that fact, all I’m saying to since this seems to be a problem in many HOA, POA’s then it maybe time that the rule be adjusted accordingly. As the saying goes “don’t fix it if it’s isn’t broken” When it’s certainly not running full steam if there are homeowners that are receiving violation notices on a daily basis.

I personally would discuss this particular situation with your BOD and ask them to amendment the governing documents, giving authorization to all homeowners to park their vehicle(s) in their driveway, with certain restrictions to the rule. (All vehicles must be in operational condition. All must me licensed and insured at all times and be drivable at all times, etc)

I have read the previously written posts. I too would be interested to know if your streets are indeed publicly owned or do you live in a community with private streets?

I believe your question about being sued has been addressed and very well I may add. I will say this though, from what I have read (this discussion forum) here and there. Anyone can sue anyone, anytime; it may not always be beneficial to the person that is filing the suit. (HOA)

As stated earlier, the PM doesn’t sue you, the HOA (if anyone) are the ones accessing you the fines (should be). The PM is only supposed to be doing what he/she is contracted to do, nothing more. I would undoubtedly speak to the board immediately. If in fact you are sued by your HOA, then it will more likely be your neighbors (some states), possible even your friends filing the suit against you.

You may have a “leg to stand on” if your streets are public as far as parking in the street. As mentioned earlier, you may find that you may repeatedly receive a parking citation, but I don’t believe the HOA can enforce the rule (as I have found) of no parking in the street.

If all else fails then you can take a chance, but I would attempt to rectify the situation prior to any disregards to the rule(s)in question.

Best of luck and certainly keep us posted
Chuck W.




Charles E. Wafer Jr.
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


04/11/2007 6:33 AM  
Posted By MarloM on 04/11/2007 12:58 AM
This is a sticky issue for me as I have a three car garage, I own four vehicles and we have two teen drivers in the family. My CC&Rs prohibit parking on the street and also in the driveway. City code does not prohibit parking in the street. There are many homes in my neighborhood who are in the same predicament as I am. Is it really possible that I am not allowed to park in my own driveway or in front of my home? If the PM can assess fines for these infractions can they try to sue me for the fines? Please keep in mind that all of my vehicles are in good condition are not unsightly.




If it's in the covenants that you cannot park in the street or in the driveway then yes, you can be fined and yes, they can take legal action to collect the fines. If they couldn't, what would be the purpose of fining anyone?

How did you get in the situation to where you were violating the covenants? Did you not read them before you purchased your home? Did you aquire additional vehicles after you bought the property and just did not think about the covenants at the time?

Do you feel the covenants should be changed to suit your individual situation? And what if a homeowner had five cars? Six cars? An RV or trailer?

Covenants may seem unfair at times but they are not. You knew about the restrictions when you purchased the property. It's not unfair when the covenants are enforced, what would be the purpose of having covenants if they are not to be enforced.

Ron
SC
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


04/11/2007 6:50 AM  
Marlo:

You need to do what you covenants say, if they say you can't park in the driveway then that is what you agreed to. IT doesn't matter what anyone thinks that is the way it is. As someone posted there will always be some pushing the envelope, if it is you with 4 cars and they let you, then someone will have 5 cars, or a trailer or an RV, or a camper or something.

And yes, if you are assessed a fine and the state you live in doesn't allow your HOA to lien for the fine, then yes you can be sued. If we had someone refuse to pay fines I wouldn't hesitate to take them to small claims court. You may never see the money, but having a judgement attached to your record would be enough to make me think it was worth it.
KimM4
(Maryland)

Posts:1


09/06/2007 6:50 PM  
The president of our HOA recently moved, and the "mess" fell into my lap. I am a school teacher with three kids, and know nothing about HOA's. Our 2 roads, culdesac, and parking areas are all owned by the town. We have parking resrictions in place, but are still having problems with a few residents.Their parking creates unsafe conditions, and the town and police say they do not want to get involved. Further they told me the HOA has no authority since it is not our property. One of our residents had the other's car towed for parking in his spot, subsequently he is facing grand theft auto charges. What if anything can we do to enforce the parking restrictions on "public" roads? I was told by the town clerk that in essence 75 cars from out of town could park in our spots and there is nothing we could do. HELP!
HaroldS1
(Arizona)

Posts:314


09/06/2007 7:39 PM  
Kim - I think you should start a new thread to get more interest in your problem.
But if you have a legal opinion from your town that your HOA does not have authority to control parking on public streets, that opinion will trump your CC&Rs, and you indeed have no control over street parking - end of THAT problem! Just because your CC&Rs forbid it, doesn't mean you can enforce it if it conflicts with a higher law.
Municipal, County, State and Federal laws that conflict with your documents will always overrule your CC&Rs. For instance: if your CC&Rs ban satellite dishes or TV antennas (and most do), Federal law allows them, giving HOAs control over placement ONLY IF your mandated placement does not affect reception.
If your management company doesn't inform you of these conflicts, it will be your responsibility to study and know them yourself. You needn't go thru the motions of removing these conflicting rules from your documents, but just be aware they are not always enforceable. Harold
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:5067


09/06/2007 8:13 PM  
Kim, if your Declaration of CC&Rs has specific restrictions on parking AND ... when the roads were dedicated to the Town the dedication plat stated the HOA reserved the right to enforce the CC&Rs, then I think you have the authority to enforce parking on those public streets. Your may want to check this out with an experienced HOA attorney.
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


09/07/2007 6:00 AM  
Posted By HaroldS1 on 09/06/2007 7:39 PM
Kim - I think you should start a new thread to get more interest in your problem.
But if you have a legal opinion from your town that your HOA does not have authority to control parking on public streets, that opinion will trump your CC&Rs, and you indeed have no control over street parking - end of THAT problem! Just because your CC&Rs forbid it, doesn't mean you can enforce it if it conflicts with a higher law.
Municipal, County, State and Federal laws that conflict with your documents will always overrule your CC&Rs. For instance: if your CC&Rs ban satellite dishes or TV antennas (and most do), Federal law allows them, giving HOAs control over placement ONLY IF your mandated placement does not affect reception.
If your management company doesn't inform you of these conflicts, it will be your responsibility to study and know them yourself. You needn't go thru the motions of removing these conflicting rules from your documents, but just be aware they are not always enforceable. Harold




The difference between satalite dishes and parking restrictions is that federal law specifically overrides HOA covenants on this issue. Unless town ordinances specifically provide that parking on the street is legal in spite of covenants restricting it, I believe they can be enforced. The town clerk is not providing a binding legal opinion. He or she is a clerck, not an attorney.

The HOA should ask for an opinion from their own attorney.

Ron
SC
BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2640


09/07/2007 6:32 AM  
Posted By KimM4 on 09/06/2007 6:50 PM
The president of our HOA recently moved, and the "mess" fell into my lap. I am a school teacher with three kids, and know nothing about HOA's. Our 2 roads, culdesac, and parking areas are all owned by the town. We have parking resrictions in place, but are still having problems with a few residents.Their parking creates unsafe conditions, and the town and police say they do not want to get involved. Further they told me the HOA has no authority since it is not our property. One of our residents had the other's car towed for parking in his spot, subsequently he is facing grand theft auto charges. What if anything can we do to enforce the parking restrictions on "public" roads? I was told by the town clerk that in essence 75 cars from out of town could park in our spots and there is nothing we could do. HELP!





Kim:

Here is my take on the situation, I would put pressure on the city or local government to enforce this. Often municipalities have ordinances that restrict street parking. Our city has an ordinance that a vehicle can't be parked in one spot for more than 24 hours. I would work with your city to see if they have an ordinance and if they don't get them to draft and adopt one. Since they are public roads I don't know how much luck you will have enforcing your HOA restricitions, my guess is not much.

BTW, I am shocked a towing company would tow a car that was legally parked on a street? I have never been a big advocate of towing for several reason, one is the reason above and another is what happens and who is liable if the car gets damaged?
HaroldS1
(Arizona)

Posts:314


09/07/2007 10:35 AM  
Ronald - if you noticed, I said "if you have a legal opinion..." I know police don't know the law as well as they think they do - or they are deliberately enforcing it selectively. Naw, they wouldn't do that. We had police tell us that city motor home parking restrictions only applied to major streets, not residential streets. A call to the city attorney's office straightened them out. Harold
GloriaM
(North Carolina)

Posts:829


09/07/2007 2:03 PM  
Janet:

Even the County has a zoning/code official, I would call again and ask for that department. I deal with City officials and County which I know they are so very different. Try to call again and ask if they could point you to the right department to assist you.
RobertG12
(Arizona)

Posts:160


03/30/2009 3:29 PM  
Posted By BradP on 04/11/2007 6:50 AM
Marlo:

You need to do what you covenants say, if they say you can't park in the driveway then that is what you agreed to. IT doesn't matter what anyone thinks that is the way it is.



To the several that state that if the covenants say it is so, then it is so. There are many covenants that statements that are either illegal or unenforceable. Depending on the ownership of the street and local regulations, portions of the CC&Rs may not be valid.

At best, parking fines on public streets are not enforceable. How can the HOA determine who owns the car? Are you going to run the license plate to find ownership? I doubt you will. Are you going to ask the homeowner if it is his/her car so they can levy a fine? I doubt it.

I think there is one part of the discussion that is not being considered. I am no lawyer, but this is how I see what is being done. The CC&Rs bind the rules the land the owner purchased. It does not bind the rules to the owner. Since the land has restrictions (CC&Rs), then the owner is bound when the land is involved. This applies to the lot the owner owns or the common area the HOA owns in common with all the lot owners. Thus, when you are not on the land (either case) the rules do not apply. Only when the land that is bound to the CC&Rs are violated by the action of the owner can the rule be applied.

To use and example. If the CC&Rs say that loud music cannot be played, then I am sure we all would agree that having a party in an owner's back yard is subject to that rule. Now take that same party down the block to your local community (city) park and make the noise. I don't think anyone would try to apply the CC&R rule since you are no longer on your property. The rule is bound to the land, not the person. Just because the street is adjacent to the homeowner, it is legal no closer than the community park down the street.

Parking is the same. As long as the street is not part of the homeowner's lot or the common area, then the CC&Rs are not enforceable there.

Many HOAs fine people for this and many people pay the fine. No one seems to fight the issue because there are no simple legal remedies for homeowners to use - many courts are just too expensive. A $50 fine is a lot cheaper than a $2000 legal battle. Being able to get away with fining for parking doesn't make it right, it just makes it.

Having said all that, our HOA fines for parking, gets away with it.
MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491


03/30/2009 8:23 PM  
Interesting and creative interpretation, too bad it doesn't hold water.

The way you "see it" and the way that judges and others who have litigated these things have seen it do, indeed, many many many times support the HOA's right to enforce, fine and tow regarding parking restrictions on municipality-owned streets within a deed restricted community.

I would strongly recommend that a homeowner not try the "try to enforce against me" route in our development.

They have [tried].

We do [enforce].

They lost.

It's "legal" as those who thought otherwise have found out. If the homeowner allows the violation, he is the one responsible. Again, as several have found out the hard way.

Oh, and you betchya we will "run plates."

We've done it in the past and will do it in the future.

MaryA1


Posts:0


03/31/2009 7:13 AM  
Robert,

I have to agree with Michele's observation of your theory: "Interesting and creative interpretation, too bad it doesn't hold water."

True the CCRs are deed restrictions that run with the land, but that does not mean the restrictions can only pertain to the land. The legal definition of "Running with the land" means they continue on and are passed on to successor owners. In the very early years of CCRs many were racial in nature, which has nothing to do "with the land". I think you're grabbing at straws to justify your interpretation of what CCR really means, which is that these are restrictions you agreed to abide by when you purchased your property. You agreed to them just by virtue of accepting the deed to your property. Even if you did not see the CCRs or agree to anything contained in them, legally speaking, you agreed to abide by them. If you have a problem with the parking restriction then you should not have purchased a deed restricted property that contained that particular restriction. While it's true some CCR restrictions have been rendered unenforceable (i.e. prohibition against satellite dish antennas), parking on public streets is not one of them. There is no Fed or State law prohibiting this restriction. In fact, quite the opposite is true. There is case law in MO upholding the assn's "right" to this restriction. Judges do rely on case law from other states when rendering their decisions. Bottom line, you assn does have the right to issue violations notices for parking on public streets and to also impose fines -- if the CCRs allow for both. If you do not pay those fines they can have a judgement entered against you which you would have to pay upon transfer of title, unless they chose to collect by some other action.
RobertG12
(Arizona)

Posts:160


03/31/2009 8:00 AM  
I would like to understand what the MO case law states. Do you have any copy or reference to the action? My research indicates it is Missouri Court of Appeals, Eastern District, Division Two, MARYLAND ESTATES HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION v. Karen PUCKETT and Chris SCHALLERT, No. 70105, Dec. 17, 1996 but so far I can only find the actions back to Jan 1997.
MaryA1


Posts:0


03/31/2009 8:59 AM  
Robert,

You've found the right case. Here it is.


HOA RESTRICTS PARKING ON PUBLIC STREETS

12/17/96 MARYLAND ESTATES HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION

Ώ] COURT OF APPEALS OF MISSOURI, EASTERN DISTRICT, DIVISION TWO

ΐ] No. 70105

Α] 1996.MO.23586 , 936 S.W.2d 218

Β] December 17, 1996

Γ] *MARYLAND ESTATES HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATION, PLAINTIFF/RESPONDENT, v. KAREN PUCKETT AND CHRIS SCHALLERT, DEFENDANTS/APPELLANTS.*

Δ] Appeal from the Circuit Court of St. Louis County. Hon. Robert Campbell.

Ε] Gerald M. Smith, Judge, Crane, P.j. and Pudlowski, J., concur.

Ζ] The opinion of the court was delivered by: Smith

Η] Defendants, Puckett and Schallert, appeal from a summary judgment granting plaintiff, Maryland Estates Homeowners' Association, an injunction prohibiting defendants from parking Schallert's truck in their driveway and on the streets of the subdivision. We affirm.

⎖] Puckett is the owner of a home in the Maryland Estates subdivision. Schallert resides with Puckett. Schallert owns a one ton truck which he parks either in the driveway of the house where he resides or on the street in front of the house. The plat establishing the subdivision provides that the "streets are dedicated to the City of Maryland Heights for public use forever." The Indenture of Trust and Restrictions preclude the regular parking of trucks or commercial vehicles in streets, yards or driveways in the subdivision. "Trucks" do not include pickup trucks of 1/2
ton or less.

⎗] The Association brought this action to enjoin Puckett and Schallert from parking Schallert's truck in the residence driveway and on the street in front of the residence. Defendants concede that the truck cannot be parked in the driveway. Their only contention on appeal is that because the streets have been dedicated to the public, the Association has lost the power to control their use. They rely upon City of Camdenton v. Sho-Me Power Corp., 361 Mo. 790, 237 S.W.2d 94 (Mo. 1951) for the proposition that a dedicator cannot attach conditions or limitations inconsistent with the legal character of the dedication or which exclude public control of the property.

⎘] City of Camdenton might be applicable if the Association were attempting to restrict the accessibility of the streets to members of the public who are not residents of the subdivision, but that is not the case here. The Indenture of Trust and Restrictions is a contract to which each homeowner becomes a party when acquiring property in the subdivision. Kauffman v. Roling, 851 S.W.2d 789 (Mo.App. 1993)Ώ,2]. By acquiring the property the owners agree to the terms of the restrictive covenants contained in the Indenture. It is agreed by the parties that persons residing in property in the subdivision are equally bound. The Association is seeking enforcement of the promises contained within the Indenture to which defendants have agreed. Defendants agreed that they would not park a truck regularly on the streets of the subdivision. They have breached that agreement and have insisted on their right to do so in the future. An
injunction was the proper remedy to prevent such actions in the future.

⎙] The court awarded the Association attorney's fees in the amount of $3000. Defendants challenge that award on appeal. Attorney's fees may be awarded to a successful litigant where provided for by contract. Harris v. Union Electric Company, 766 S.W.2d 80 (Mo.banc 1989)Γ]. The Indenture, a contract, provides for such an award. The court properly made the award. We need not address the issue briefed by the defendants that the language of the Indenture authorizes an attorney's fee award whether the Association wins or loses and that such a provision is against public policy. Here the Association won.

⎚] Judgment affirmed.

⎛] GERALD M. SMITH, Judge

⎜] Crane, P.J. and Pudlowski, J., concur.
RobertG12
(Arizona)

Posts:160


03/31/2009 10:32 AM  
Thanks, that is what I was looking for. I have to think on this a bit.
MaryA1


Posts:0


03/31/2009 1:53 PM  
Robert,

Are you aware of the bills b/4 the legislature (HB2034) that would prohibit HOAs from restricting parking on public streets? This is the 3d year this bill has surfaced. If you would like to discuss it, please feel free to email me privately at: [email protected]

I've done extensive research on this topic -- it's not just a matter of property rights but safety as well.
RobertG12
(Arizona)

Posts:160


03/31/2009 2:51 PM  
Posted By MaryA1 on 03/31/2009 1:53 PM
Robert,

Are you aware of the bills b/4 the legislature (HB2034) that would prohibit HOAs from restricting parking on public streets? This is the 3d year this bill has surfaced. If you would like to discuss it, please feel free to email me privately at: [email protected]

I've done extensive research on this topic -- it's not just a matter of property rights but safety as well.



Thanks for the info. The track record for passing HOA bills is dismal so I don't think much will come of this. I do think it is more appropriate that regulation of streets should be done by local government who have experts(?) in areas like traffic safety rather than a handful of local residents who want to impose some type of rule. I have seen too many local board members who are wannabe police or have grudges against neighbors that make me skeptical about HOA enforcement (IMHO).

I will let the wisdom of the legislature prevail.
MaryA1


Posts:0


03/31/2009 3:05 PM  
Robert,

I do believe "wisdom of the legislature" is an oxymoron!
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