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Subject: Cats on Leashes
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Author Messages
VirginiaC
(Virginia)

Posts:6


10/30/2006 12:34 PM  
My home owner's association is requiring that I have my indoor-outdoor cat on a leash when he is outside. I think this is rediculous and was wondering if anyone had any experience with similar requirements.
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:5067


10/30/2006 1:27 PM  
Yes, my HOA requires all animals to be under control on a leash when not in the house or a fenced backyard. I think it is a reasonable rule.
HaroldS
(Arizona)

Posts:906


10/30/2006 1:28 PM  
No - but I know from experience that most cats do not take well to a leash. Does your documents specifally require cats be on a leash when outside, or is this just a "rule" the board came up with? Unless cats on a leash is already addressed in your CC&Rs, this is not a type of rule a board has authority to impose. They cannot, without members vote, impose "new" rules. Harold
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:5067


10/30/2006 1:46 PM  
Harold, I disagree with you. In Colorado the Board can create and enforce Rules and Regulations which include restrictions which amplify or clarify the Declaration. Requiring an animal to be on a leash under control of a handler is a reasonable rule.
VirginiaC
(Virginia)

Posts:6


10/30/2006 3:47 PM  
The association rules state that all "pets" have to be on a leash. At the time we moved in, we logically assumed that meant dogs...cats by nature do not wear leashes...where is the logic in this? Honestly, has anyone actually EVER seen a cat on a leash? The animal has done no damage in the community, and they said the complaint was that he is a "menace to the dogs". Well, now I think I've heard it all...

I would like to know from anyone out there how to fight this...do I do a neighborhood petition perhaps? Thanks for any and all help.
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


10/30/2006 3:58 PM  
Multi part answer:

1) if the association rule states "all pets", then yes, your cat must be on a leash when outside. them's the rules, you knew them when you bought. Unfortunate that you assumed one thing, the HOA assumed another, but that's the way it is.

2) Why should cats be on a leash outside? Cars (how horrible that someone hit your cat. It ruins everyone's life, especially the cat). Damage to other property (flowerbeds, paint jobs, peeing and spraying, digging, and feces). Upsets dogs or other cats, which could lead to problems (your cat outside my window makes my cat tear up draperies, or my dog to jump a fence). Unleashed cats are also more likely to roam, and get diseases like FIV, Leukemia, rabies, etc., which devastates your animal.

3) What you can do: Get elected to the board, and work to change the rule from within. Or, watch for other people to take their fish or birds or turtles or snakes to the vet, and then ask the board "Hey, Bob took his goldfish to the vet, and they weren't on a leash! Fine him too!". Force the board to apply the rule as written to everyone.



HaroldS
(Arizona)

Posts:906


10/30/2006 4:08 PM  
Roger wrote + "the Board can create and enforce Rules and Regulations which include restrictions which amplify or clarify the Declaration."

Roger - Did you read my post? I asked Virginia if that was in her declaration, and yes the board can add rules that clarify the declarations, but if the subject in not already in the declarations, they cannot "make" a new rule without members voting on it. I'm not sure they can "amplify" a declaration. Please give me an example of amplifying" Harold
JosephW
(Michigan)

Posts:882


10/30/2006 5:21 PM  
I would suspect that the local animal control ordinance also requires all pets to be leashed when outside. Animals not under your control can do any number of things to irritate your neighbors. One of the reasons they may have chosen to live there is to avoid those irritations and they have a right to expect their neighbors to keep their part of the bargain. All pets leashed doesn't leave any room to maneuver.

Joe

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BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


10/30/2006 5:41 PM  
many cities are heading (or have gone) to the "all animal" leash law, requiring dogs, cats, ferrets, etc. to be leashed when in public.

Even more cutting edge are those that simply state that all animals in public must be under the physical control of their owner/handler... this allows people who carry those rats they claim are dogs in their handbags or backpacks, cats or ferrets in travel crates, etc.. leashes are physical control, "well trained" is not upheld by courts as physical control.

I for one have never understood why my dog had to be leashed, but my cat could wander all over the neighborhood and pee and poop everywhere. I think they should both be treated the same.
VirginiaC
(Virginia)

Posts:6


10/30/2006 5:49 PM  
I ask any of you out there if you have EVER seen a cat on a leash. This is a rule that clearly had not been intended to be judged this way, and I think I have an HOA board that can't use good judgement.
JulieS
(Georgia)

Posts:412


10/30/2006 5:54 PM  
Most counties and cities have a leash law for both cats and dogs but for some reason, most people believe leash laws only pertain to dogs. Our biggest complaints to the HOA....barking dogs, dog owners not cleaning up after their dogs and cats using a neighbors flower bed as their litter box. We refer them to animal control as there is nothing in our documents on this to enforce.

As an owner of four cats, I can never understand why someone thinks it is o.k. for cats to run around loose outside, or why they think cats need to be outside at all. I would be devastated to find my cat dead in the road because it was hit by a car, I don't want to deal with fleas or the expense of medications, I do not want my cat getting into cat fights that require medical attention, picked up by a hawk or coyote, nor do I want them contacting feline HIV & Leukemia and everything else that is out there. Additionally, I do not want my cats killing birds and other wildlife, using the neighbors flower bed as a litter box and I especially do not want to risk the danger of my cat being hurt by humans who find it entertaining to injure an animal. I once had a cat who liked to be outside and I would keep him on a harness collar and lead in the yard. Additionally, cats can be trained to walk on a leash like a dog, just for some reason, humans refuse to believe this is possible.

Out of respect for ones neighbors and your pet, all pets when outside, should be on a leash or under the owners control and not left to roam. To do so, in my opinion, is being irresponsible.

JosephW
(Michigan)

Posts:882


10/30/2006 6:01 PM  
Virginia, to answer your question. I've seen cats on leashes in condos and HOA's, more often in urban settings than suburban or rural, and not frequently, as most owners in associations keep their cats inside. And I have to disagree with your assessment of the board's judgment - In 30+ years working with associations, I've yet to work with one that allows any animals to roam freely. Pets on leashes, is the norm, not the exception.

Joe

Joseph West
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Community Associations Network, LLC
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JulieS
(Georgia)

Posts:412


10/30/2006 6:01 PM  
Have I ever seen a cat on a leash? Yes....I lived in an apartment complex and every night, a guy would be walking his cat and it was on a leash.
VirginiaC
(Virginia)

Posts:6


10/30/2006 6:33 PM  
I am not believing what I am reading...what a bizzaro world it is now.
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:5067


10/30/2006 7:34 PM  
Posted By VirginiaC on 10/30/2006 6:33 PM
I am not believing what I am reading...what a bizzaro world it is now.

When we had cats they were always on a leash when outside. We believe to not do so is irresponsible and you believe it is bizzare to do so. This illustrates the problem with restrictions - which ones are not reasonable? Each of us has different values based on our life experiences.

PatrickS
(Washington)

Posts:34


10/30/2006 8:14 PM  
I know that this thread has been worn to death, but I will tell you what our CC&R's state:

Limit of two pets and must be of the "inside type". This includes cats. We do have a leash rule, but it does not differ with cats or dogs it just says pets.

I have to agree that this is a reasonable rule. Several of the homeowners here have had it up to here after gardening in their flower beds and finding it to be a litter box. I don't know about you, but I really hate to handle kitty poo without a litter scoop.

This is why we live in an HOA community. If you don't like the rule, there are ways to change it or just simply move. In my experience, most like the rules until they find that a rule is one they don't agree with. Then the gloves are off.

I don't take my cat on walks, but that is not what cats do. She would rather lay on my bed or be harassing my dog (who is also inside). I have to set the example as well.

Better rules make better neighbors.

Patrick

JamesC
(Maryland)

Posts:282


10/30/2006 8:26 PM  
Virginia:
You have a right to have a cat, dog or any animal you want. But, along with choosing to have an animal comes the responsibilities that goes along with having the pet.
Suppose your next door neighbor chooses not to have a pet. Suppose they hate pets, do they then, have to put up with your pet being in their yard or where ever your cat or dog chooses to roam?
You said you read the documents about leashing pets, yet you decided to move into the area.
You can't move in with the understanding of the rules of the community then feel other homeowners should over look your breaking the rules.
Not meant to be critical but, you have to understand owners who do not have their own pets maybe just don't
want to share yours.

Jim:


BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


10/30/2006 9:06 PM  
Just to add my two cents:

I had cats who would walk on a leash, and did that every time we took them out front. Put me in the corner of "seen cats on a leash".

I also am firmly with Julie on the idea of not letting a cat roam free. FIV, Rabies, fleas, cat fights with other cats, infections, poisons, dogs/coyotes, leukemia, loss... ample reasons a cat should NEVER be allowed to roam free outside. Add to it Julie's additional thoughts about killing songbirds, defecating in other yards, spreading disease, damaging property... plenty of reasons you should keep your cats in your control, and not expect other people to live with them.

JulieS
(Georgia)

Posts:412


10/31/2006 6:45 AM  
Virginia, I recommend that you seek the advice of your veterinarian. I am 99% sure that they will recommend keeping your cat totally indoors, or if allowed outdoors, then on a leash or lead.

You have the right to own a pet but you are also required to be a responsible pet owner in respecting your neighbors and also protecting your cat. It is obvious that your cat is behaving in a manor that has created a problem or you would not have received a letter from the association.

On another note, can someone please tell me why it is necessary for a cat to be allowed to roam outside? We don't expect this of dogs and children.
RickR1
(California)

Posts:37


10/31/2006 12:38 PM  
Point Blank. If the CCR's say the cat has to be on a leash, then so it be. Same old song. Everyone has signed on and read the rules before they bought so....?
I think you want an audience to agree but there isn't going to be one. Sorry to be harsh but that it.

Topic of cats:
I love cats. Love them to death. Have two right now and I take them with me to my condo, camping and more. Very wrong for you to not take responsibility for your cats. When animals become domesticated, we take on the burden, if you call it that, of them. Feeding, care, etc. Notice the care in there. Cats on the side of the road, taken away by coyotes/hawks and lost forever have to be the worst things someone can witness. We prevent this by keeping them on leashes outside and/or keeping them primarily indoors. Same for bunnies, dogs, ferrets.(we have these and more in our HOA condos)
VirginiaC
(Virginia)

Posts:6


11/01/2006 4:46 PM  
I appreciate all the feeback from the HOA "experts"...my choice seems to be move, or have my cat, who has enjoyed four years in my neighborhood without any trouble, put to sleep. Two "great" options. Thanks but no thanks. Can't think of when I've gotten any worse advice.
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


11/01/2006 4:54 PM  
there are other options.

put her on a leash.
keep her inside.

hoatalk
(California)

Posts:577


11/01/2006 5:47 PM  
VirginiaC: Your last post where you resorted to name calling and posted your phone number has been removed. Please don't do either on this forum.

Our posting rules (see link at top of the forum) state: "(1) Post any relevant topic you like, but please keep it clean, positive and friendly."

After re-reading every post on this thread, it's clear that no one was rude to you and people were simply politely posting opinions on your situation and trying to help. There are many helpful people here and yes many "Experts". You would be well served to review their advice because they are correct.

In a 30 second search on Google I found many articles that back up the opinions here. For example, this one by 2 veterinarians:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?dept_id=0&siteid=1&acatid=214&aid=105

Here's some quotes from the article:
"And, frankly, the outdoors has many potentially dangerous situations. In fact, the average life expectancy for an outdoor cat is about 3 years, compared to twelve for an inside cat."

"Don't let cats out without a leash ... Consider teaching your cat to walk on a leash. Many cats can satisfy their desire to be outside with a daily walk."

Best Regards,
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


11/02/2006 7:23 AM  
Posted By VirginiaC on 10/30/2006 5:49 PM

I ask any of you out there if you have EVER seen a cat on a leash. This is a rule that clearly had not been intended to be judged this way, and I think I have an HOA board that can't use good judgement.


My cats have always been "indoor cats" but I had one who would allow me to put him on a leash and take him outdoors for a walk. Of course with a cat, you walk where he wants to go, not the other way around.


Ron
SC
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


11/02/2006 7:58 AM  
Posted By VirginiaC on 11/01/2006 4:46 PM

I appreciate all the feeback from the HOA "experts"...my choice seems to be move, or have my cat, who has enjoyed four years in my neighborhood without any trouble, put to sleep. Two "great" options. Thanks but no thanks. Can't think of when I've gotten any worse advice.


You do not have to have your cat "put to sleep" (kill it). Keep it indoors, it will adjust just fine.

You asked the "experts" for advice and you got it. Apperently you did not get the advice you wanted to hear. Don't be angry with the responses, you asked for them. If you want better advice, see a lawyer.

Ron
SC
WilliamT
(Arizona)

Posts:489


11/02/2006 8:24 AM  
In my community, cats are not an issue. We have a leash law for dogs, not "pets". There are a few that roam around, including mine, and no one complains.

As to how cats can adjust, here is the history on my 14 year old cat. In California we lived on one acre and all the neighboring lots were one acre. Our cat was an outdoor cat. It stayed outdoors most of the time. We would call her at night and sometimes she would come in and sleep in the garage. She never wanted to be in the house.

We moved to Arizona into a community that has very small lots so her life style had to change. Because cats tend to try and return to their former residence, we kept her in the house for one month to get her to learn that this was her new home. We would take her outside and stay with her to do her duty, then bring her back inside.

After one month we would take her outside for extended periods of time and stay close to her. Finally she became comfortable with her new home, and also comfortable being in the house. Now she comes in and out during the day as she pleases, and does not stray far when she goes outside. Age probably plays a factor there.

In the hot months she'll stay inside from about 11Am to 5PM, then go outside until about 9PM.

She still likes to sleep in the garage at night, probably because of the privacy and hiding places, and the fact that she can roam around there all night if she chooses. She is ready to come in from outside and call it a night at about 9:30 PM.

We have never had the need to put a leash on her. Judging by the way she adjusted to her new life style here, and because it took some time to adjust, I would guess that with a few minutes of very patient practice every day, that she could adjust to a leash in a couple of months.

When we drove to Arizona during our move, we tried to use a leash at the rest stops. She was not accustomed to that, and refused to walk. Fortunately we had a litter box in the back of the car for her to use.

One cannot expect a cat to adjust to a leash within a few minutes, but I believe with patience and understanding during a couple of months training, all cats can adjust.
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


11/02/2006 12:51 PM  
I just can't understand why anyone would make the biggest purchase of their lifetime (a house) and not read and understand any restrictions beforehand. And then complain about enforcement afterwards. And then threaten to kill the cat. I have no sympathy.

Ron
SC
WilliamT
(Arizona)

Posts:489


11/02/2006 1:45 PM  
Ronald,

If someone hasn't lived in a planned community before they really don't know what to expect. At closing the title company sends them a pile of papers which include the CC&R's, etc., and they haven't the foggiest idea what it's all about.

That's where a good BOD comes in. A Welcome Committee for new home owners and rentors can orient the new comers to the community and the rules. Slightly after the fact but at least the new owners gain some knowledge and the welcome committee can help the owner to work out options for various issues they weren't aware of.
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


11/02/2006 2:32 PM  
Posted By WilliamT on 11/02/2006 1:45 PM

Ronald,

If someone hasn't lived in a planned community before they really don't know what to expect. At closing the title company sends them a pile of papers which include the CC&R's, etc., and they haven't the foggiest idea what it's all about.

That's where a good BOD comes in. A Welcome Committee for new home owners and rentors can orient the new comers to the community and the rules. Slightly after the fact but at least the new owners gain some knowledge and the welcome committee can help the owner to work out options for various issues they weren't aware of.


Let me tell you what I did.

At age 60+, I had never lived in a community with any CC&Rs, HOA, or regulations except for local laws. I didn't know what a CC&R was. I had heard horror stories about them, though. I have a 24' trailer boat that I wanted to keep on my property. When looking for a new home (I retired and relocated 500+ miles away), I made sure the real estate agent knew about the boat. I looked at a few properties without CC&Rs where I could do anything I pleased with the property. The neighbors already had done this; junked cars, piles of rubbish, "lawns" that hadn't been mowed for weeks, etc. I also looked at communities with CC&Rs and HOAs. Some didn't allow boats at all, some had dedicated boat and RV storage areas. When I found a house I liked, one with an obvious place to store a boat, and in a neighborhood with a few boats and RVs parked behind fences or "screening", I asked my real estate agent to get me a copy of the CC&Rs. I studied these documents very carefully over a period of several days. I decided I could live with restrictions on when the trash could be put out, what type and color of mailbox I could have, etc. Based on the other boats and RVs in the development, I felt reasonably certain that an application to move a gate and store the boat would be accepted.
Only after this study, did I make an offer on the house.

I bought the house, the application for boat storage was approved (I stored it off site until it was) and about a year and one half later I was nominated and elected to the BOD.

A person who would spend several hundred thousand dollars on something without researching it is a ............


Ron
SC
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


11/02/2006 2:33 PM  
I forgot to mention that there's a sign at the entrance stating that the community is governed by covenants and restrictions.

Ron
SC
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


11/02/2006 3:05 PM  
Posted By WilliamT on 11/02/2006 1:45 PM

Ronald,
......... That's where a good BOD comes in. A Welcome Committee for new home owners and rentors can orient the new comers to the community and the rules. Slightly after the fact but at least the new owners gain some knowledge and the welcome committee can help the owner to work out options for various issues they weren't aware of.


That's the tricky part. Our welcoming committee isn't really functioning. When I moved in, there was a gentleman about my age who walked the neighborhood for exercise. He stopped by one day when I was working in my garage unpacking and introduced himself we talked for a while and had common backgrounds. A few days later he dropped by with a "condensed" version of the CC&Rs (nothing I hadn't already read). My next door neighbor on the other hand, claims that someone came by shortly after they had moved in, handed them some papers and said "here's the rules". I suspect she's exaggerating, but it's a little touchy meeting someone for the first time and "handing them the rules".

If you've got any suggestions to make it easier or more pleasant, please let me know.



Ron
SC
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


11/02/2006 4:38 PM  
this is an excellent example of a common problem...

by the time ANY welcoming committee can meet and greet, it's really too late for the new homeowner. they have already bought their home, and "agreed" to the rules.

granted, the welcome meeting can help set the tone of the HOA, and is a great idea, but it doesn't solve the "if i had known that rule, i would have never bought..." problem. (or the converse "Why did you buy if you didn't like the rules"....)
hoatalk
(California)

Posts:577


11/02/2006 4:55 PM  
Posted By BrianB on 11/02/2006 4:38 PM

by the time ANY welcoming committee can meet and greet, it's really too late for the new homeowner. they have already bought their home, and "agreed" to the rules.


Brian, Good point. One solution our community website customers use is to post governing documents on the public portion of their websites. Some communities also have exit signs with the website address so potential buyers, Realtors and owners will know what the website address is. Here's one of our customer's websites with a public Documents section: www.LakesideAtValVista.com

You will also note the Terms of Use link at the bottom spells out that the documents may not be perfect (for liability concerns).


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WilliamT
(Arizona)

Posts:489


11/03/2006 6:03 AM  
A few days ago MikeS1 posted this info on welcome baskets.

" The welcome basket consists of a plastic utility basket, a flashlight, a candle, an inexpensive tackhammer set and picture hangers, along with the magnet holding contact phone numbers for essential services, as well as UM Committees and information."

"http://www.unionmills.com/documents/welcome.pdf has a welcome letter that MikeS1 also directed us to.

The committee can get gift $10 certificates from local restaurants that the restaurants should be happy to give free in order to draw new customers.

We are just starting up our welcome committee. A lady who is experienced in welcoming committees is going to head it and I will be getting together with her to help set up a package.

As Brian said, this is after the fact of the owner buying in the community, but it is no less important. If the owner didn't know about the CC&'R's and Rules because it was buried in the paper stack from the Title company, then the Welcome committee can help to bridge that gap and work as a laison with the board to help develop solutions for the home owner.

This contact gives the home owner an ally, and will make them feel more comfortable and welcome into the community. While they may lose their disagreement over whatever violation they moved in with, the end result should be that they understand why the violation, and since they had people working with them in an understanding manner, the pill should be easier to swallow.

Buying a home takes a lot of energy and the buyer is inundated with things to do, so it is not uncommon for a homebuyer, especially a first time buyer to not have a clue as to what the CC&R's are, unless someone has told them beforehand.

Arizona has cured that problem. Now home buyers must sign a statement that they are aware of the Bylaws and CC&R's before closing escrow.
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


11/03/2006 6:09 AM  
Posted By hoatalk on 11/02/2006 4:55 PM
........... One solution our community website customers use is to post governing documents on the public portion of their websites. Some communities also have exit signs with the website address so potential buyers, Realtors and owners will know what the website address is. Here's one of our customer's websites with a public Documents section: www.LakesideAtValVista.com

You will also note the Terms of Use link at the bottom spells out that the documents may not be perfect (for liability concerns).


We have the "short version" on our website and an offer to e-mail the complete set, but I suspect someone who fails to ask for a hard copy before they make an offer on a house will also fail to check the website.

We're working on new signs to notify residents of changed (holliday) trash pickup days and I thought about posting the website also. It's good to know that others are doing it.


Ron
SC
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


11/03/2006 4:49 PM  
not sure i would go so far to say we (in arizona) solved the problem... requiring one more signature in the home buying process may not be the miracle pill consumers need. But it does go along the line of what i think we need, which is a mandated legal process that holds someone accountable for education and presenting the pros/cons of HOA life to a prospective buyer. I have no idea how, by the way... the law AZ passed is one step, at least it holds the buyer accountable, even if the form is in among hundreds of others needing his speedy signature. I can't imagine us actually mandating time to read and THINK about the consequences during the process, so this may be the best we get. I hope it's a step in the right direction.

I also love the welcome committee ideas, the web sites, etc.. they are not all proactive, but they certainly work to stop about 50% of the common problems, i bet, with new owners (not knowing about dues, where to mail, due dates, rules, etc.). I applaud those with active plans along these lines. I wish my own HOA did... which means, i better get my butt in gear, since I am the board, basically.
CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:826


11/04/2006 3:04 AM  
VirginiaC,

Great post! I have been reading the responses as they have been posted and I would have to agree with the majority of what has been posted. It, perhaps may be very rare or uncommon to have or to see a cat on a leash but not Bizarre!
My CC&Rs state “all pet”. These are written in this way to eliminate any discrepancy a homeowner my have. You here about these grey areas all the time, well they didn’t say my, turtle, frog, ferret, or pigeon. It is summarized as “pets” Like the majority of the CC&R and by-laws written are not in black and white they are intended to be interpretive as a shady grey.

My opinion was confirmed after reading the article posted by HOATalk
(http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?dept_id=0&siteid=1&acatid=214&aid=105)

Which I would highly recommend reading the above article. I respect your belief about the leash, but by saying you only have two choices was a bit harsh, don’t you think?
I would simple suggest keeping the cat indoors, with a liter box in the garage. You could ever put in a doggy door. To save your pet’s life, the cost, labor and difficulty of installing this door is irrelevant.
If this isn’t an option then you could simple put them on a leash, taking him/her for their daily exercise and to relieve him/herself. I wouldn’t think this would be too much of an inconvenience, to you as “cat lover”.
If you care about this cat, I would think you would use “putting the cat down”, or “too sleep” as a very last resort!

I’m sorry you feel the “advice” you were given was in your words. “Can't think of when I've gotten any worse advice”. I don’t feel these suggestions were given to you as advice they were presented to you as opinions. Never an option I would never consider what I just read to mean to “kill” or to have to move.


I feel as a homeowner having any sort of pet, would do all they could before ever even considering, death or relocating.

Save yourself a lot of heart ache and train your cat to do one of two things.
1.) Train it to walk on a leash
2.) Teach it to use a kitty litter box.

I hope you can use these options, appose to death or moving.
Best of luck
Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


11/04/2006 6:07 AM  
From the City of North Charleston (where our development is located) Ordinances:

"Sec. 4-1. Running at large prohibited as nuisance.
It shall be unlawful and shall constitute a nuisance for bulls, cows, calves or any kind of cattle, horses and mules, sheep, goats, dogs, geese, chickens, turkeys, ducks, guinea fowl or any other animal or fowl to run at large at any time within the city."

Oddly, while "mules" and "sheep" as specifically mentiond, "cats" are not, but they fall under the words "any other animal". HOA rules, CCRs, etc. may be more restrictive than local laws but not less restrictive.

Also:
"Sec. 4-5. Sanitation.
(a) No owner or custodian of any animal shall cause or allow such animal to soil defile or defecate on any public property or upon any street, public way, play area or common ground owned jointly by the members of a homeowners or condominium association, or upon private property other than that of the owner, unless such owner or custodian immediately removes and disposes of all feces deposited by such animals by the following methods:
(1) Collection of the feces by appropriate implement and placement in a paper bag or plastic bag or other container; and
(2) Removal of such bag or container to the property of the animal owner or custodian and disposition thereafter in a manner as otherwise may be permitted by law."

Many counties, cities, towns, etc. have simmilar ordinances.


Ron
SC
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


11/04/2006 6:09 AM  
And from our CC&Rs:
"SECTION 11 - Livestock. No animals, livestock or poultry shall be raised, bred or kept on any lot. Dogs, cats, and other household pets may be kept provided they are not bred or maintained for commercial purposes. Pets must not constitute a nuisance or cause unsanitary conditions. Pets must be kept on owner’s lots and will be considered a nuisance if allowed to roam on other lots or streets unless leashed."

Ron
SC
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


11/04/2006 8:10 AM  
i always find it funny that statements like "no animals, livestock or poultry"...

doesn't the "no animals" pretty much cover it? Are there some kind of livestock or poultry that isn't an animal? did i miss that section of my general biology lessons?

I also love the "no animal allowed to run free or create a nuisance". I always wanted to try that on the neighbor's whose kids were causing problems... after all, humans are animals too.
BethS1


Posts:0


11/04/2006 4:53 PM  
I think it is great that someone mentioned a welcoming committee and going over the rules & regulations/bylaws. When I moved in I was stared at, monitored and the minute I did something they "thought" was wrong, they came flying over with all their books and squaking. (I had brought in wood, (baseboards) and they thought I was building something outside). No Hi, no welcome, just rude condo commando's.

It's wise to know the bylaws, know your city ordinances and then adjust to them or point it out to the accusers if they in error. We had a board dog hater at my place and she threatened many of us with fake ordinances etc... Until I copied the ordinances that she quoted.

Being a cat owner for 20+ years, they may be doing you a favor by asking for a leash rather than your cat being hurt by a car or some cat hater. There are too many mean people out there and it isn't worth the risk.

ClaudeV
(Florida)

Posts:86


11/04/2006 6:39 PM  
Posted By VirginiaC on 10/30/2006 5:49 PM

I ask any of you out there if you have EVER seen a cat on a leash. This is a rule that clearly had not been intended to be judged this way, and I think I have an HOA board that can't use good judgement.



I have seen cats on a leash before. 2 in my lifetime.

Bottomline: Our county ordinance requires cats to be leashed as well as our HOA CC&R's. Do we have cats roaming the neighborhood? Yes we do. Have they been reported to animal control? Many have been and rightfully so.

For instance: The neighborhood cats use our flower beds for a litter box. My wife is HIGHLY ALLERGIC TO CATS, and coming in contact with their feces or spray from tom cats while she is enjoying gardening in her flower beds could cause her to make an EMERGENCY ROOM VISIT!

We have neighbors that have a cat that they purchased a carrier that looks simular to a baby stroller. They walk their cat regularly around the neighborhood in this carrier so it can get fresh air and smell the outdoors. They do NOT allow their cat to roam. They are GOOD, RESPONSIBLE CAT OWNERS!

I love cats. I had one when the wife & I met. I had to find it a nice home.

Try to remember Virginia, that not everyone loves cats and when the rules say no roaming cats: THAT'S what it means! There isn't a court in the world that would support a defense of letting a cat run free where the law and/or HOA Rules say that they cannot. You should have thought about that before you bought into an HOA or gotten the rules clarified before hand.
JanM
(Texas)

Posts:142


11/05/2006 9:02 AM  
I can't believe this cat topic went 2 pages!!!
RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:5067


11/05/2006 9:11 AM  
Me either Jan. Just illustrates how important other animals are to us human animals I believe the thread on dogs is even longer!
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


11/05/2006 9:37 AM  
Of course the thread on dogs is longer.

dogs are better than cats.


*Ducks quickly, to avoid the flames and dirty looks*

I will be leaving now...










(in case anyone can't tell, it's a joke... I love dogs and cats equally, and in my house currently are two dogs (former fosters), and six cats (three former fosters, three current fosters).
KittyC
(North Carolina)

Posts:22


12/05/2006 7:00 AM  
Virginia: My HOA says the same. But the town and city have overriding rules: check with Animal Control in your town. Mine says that only dogs are required to be on a leash. However, whoever complained about your cat can have it trapped if it goes on their property, as my neighbor did to my 15 year old cat.
KittyC
(North Carolina)

Posts:22


12/05/2006 7:03 AM  
Oh yeah, even though my cat was trapped by my neighbor, it's OK for all the dogs in the neighborhood to pee and poop on my yard. (And I'm allergic to dogs...)
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


12/05/2006 7:19 AM  
Posted By JanM on 11/05/2006 9:02 AM

I can't believe this cat topic went 2 pages!!!


Well, it quickly went from a "cat" topic to a "why do I have to follow the rules" topic.


Ron
SC
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


12/05/2006 7:23 AM  
Posted By KittyC on 12/05/2006 7:03 AM

Oh yeah, even though my cat was trapped by my neighbor, it's OK for all the dogs in the neighborhood to pee and poop on my yard. (And I'm allergic to dogs...)


You have two options here: Bring it to the attention of the HOA (provide date/time stamped photos if you can) or bring it to the attention of your county/city/town animal control department.

Keep your cat inside.


Ron
SC
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


12/05/2006 7:36 AM  
Posted By KittyC on 12/05/2006 7:00 AM

Virginia: My HOA says the same. But the town and city have overriding rules: check with Animal Control in your town. Mine says that only dogs are required to be on a leash.


The town and city rules do not overide the HOA "rules" unless they are specifically written to do so. The HOA rules may be more restrictive than local law, but not less restrictive.

Specifically, if the HOA says cats may not be outside unless on a leash, then you must follow that rule when within the jurisdiction of the HOA even though the county does not require cats to be on a leash.



Ron
SC
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


12/05/2006 4:49 PM  
Ron's right... In general, the most restrictive rule has precedent (there are exceptions to this, but they are rarer).

If a town rule says every car can honk it's horn, but the HOA says only red ones can, then in the HOA area, only red cars can honk...

KittyC
(North Carolina)

Posts:22


12/08/2006 6:35 AM  
Posted By RickR1 on 10/31/2006 12:38 PM

Point Blank. If the CCR's say the cat has to be on a leash, then so it be. Same old song. Everyone has signed on and read the rules before they bought so....?
I think you want an audience to agree but there isn't going to be one. Sorry to be harsh but that it.

Topic of cats:
I love cats. Love them to death. Have two right now and I take them with me to my condo, camping and more. Very wrong for you to not take responsibility for your cats. When animals become domesticated, we take on the burden, if you call it that, of them. Feeding, care, etc. Notice the care in there. Cats on the side of the road, taken away by coyotes/hawks and lost forever have to be the worst things someone can witness. We prevent this by keeping them on leashes outside and/or keeping them primarily indoors. Same for bunnies, dogs, ferrets.(we have these and more in our HOA condos)


What an idiot! My cats have been allowed outside during the day for 15 years. By allowing them to learn their environment they can better learn to adapt. Would you keep your kids on a leash or in the house? The reason dogs are on leashes and not cats is that dogs can ATTACK people. Do cats run up to people and bite them? Have you heard in the news of small kids being mauled to death by a loose cat? Come on! The last time I put my cat on a leash, I wound up standing under a tree with the cat above me. And don't give that excuse that cats kill songbirds when they are outside and therefore are a menace to wildlife. The building of your house destroyed the lives of many more animals that a cat ever could...
KittyC
(North Carolina)

Posts:22


12/08/2006 6:50 AM  
"Now she comes in and out during the day as she pleases"

If my cat went into my neighbor's yard as she pleased, she would have her picture recorded on a DVD as evidence that she was destroying my neighbor's mulch. (He has about 10 DVDs of this.)
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


12/08/2006 7:00 AM  
Posted By KittyC on 12/08/2006 6:35 AM

What an idiot! My cats have been allowed outside during the day for 15 years. By allowing them to learn their environment they can better learn to adapt. Would you keep your kids on a leash or in the house? The reason dogs are on leashes and not cats is that dogs can ATTACK people. Do cats run up to people and bite them? Have you heard in the news of small kids being mauled to death by a loose cat? Come on! The last time I put my cat on a leash, I wound up standing under a tree with the cat above me. And don't give that excuse that cats kill songbirds when they are outside and therefore are a menace to wildlife. The building of your house destroyed the lives of many more animals that a cat ever could...


First of all, let's try to be civil here. Calling someone an idiot is not enhancing the discussion.

First and foremost, if the CC&Rs state that cats (or all animals or pets) must be on a leash when outside, that's it. It doesn't matter how you feel about it personally or how many years your cats have lived outside. End of discussion.

Second, although cats don't usually attack people and you don't care that they may attack songbirds and wildlife, when we live in close proximity to others, we must compromise in order to live in harmony. Many people do object to cats harming songbirds and wildlife, others object to them leaving muddy footprints on their vehicles. Cats dig in flower beds and defecate on other people's property.

I have a cat. I love my cat. To show him that I love him, I keep him indoors except for trips to the vet. He is perfectly happy living indoors, he sits in the windowsill or in the sunroom and watches the sights when he feels like it, he plays with cat toys, and he naps when and where he wants, all without the danger of being hit by a car, attacked by a dog or wild animal, and safe from rabies and other "outdoor cat" diseases.

Many counties, towns, and cities are now passing "cat leash" laws. The purpose is not to require that cats be on leashes (as you know, it's pretty impractical), but to keep them from running loose. Keeping ths cat indoors accomplishes the same purpose.

Ron
SC
hoatalk
(California)

Posts:577


12/08/2006 7:13 AM  
Posted By KittyC on 12/08/2006 6:35 AM
What an idiot!


KittyC

Please click the Posting Rules link at the top of the forum. Among other things, they say "Post any relevant topic you like, but please keep it clean, helpful, positive and friendly."

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JulieS
(Georgia)

Posts:412


12/08/2006 8:24 AM  
Let's see if this post will go to three pages!

I am a cat lover...I have four cats (all rescued) that are strictly indoor cats. I have spent lots of money spaying/neutering, testing, vaccinating and finding homes for cats that cross my way. Have one now that needs a home as it came upon my door step and feeling badly, I fed it!

On the other hand, I feed the birds. I spend about $100 every 6-8 weeks on various types of bird food. I have 7 nesting boxes, six feeders, five bird baths and three humming bird feeders. Nothing is more disheartening to go out in my yard and find a pile of bird feathers because someone wasn't responsible enough to keep their cat indoors or on a lead/leash.

I also garden....nothing worse than the smell of cat urine or feces when you are working in the garden...especially on a 90 degree day and the humidity to go along with it. I don't like finding my plants dug up and mulch in a pile either. Right now, I have a stray tom cat that likes to spray on my house....that is real enjoyable. I also do not enjoy being woken up in the middle of the night by cats fighting or cats in heat.

Since the first posting of this thread, I have noticed 4-5 dead cats along the road on my route to work, a few deer, raccoons, opposum, rabbits, squirrels...and only one dog. The point being that most people are responsible enough to keep dogs contained but for some reason, humans seem to think it is o.k. to let cats roam as they please.

The point is to be a responsible pet owner, whether you have a cat or dog. Being responsible is the ability to protect your cat/pet and to respect others. By allowing your pet to roam, you are being irresponsible. In my opinion, cat owners who allow their cats to be outside and roam freely need to be educated and their thought process re-trained on the issue. Living in a community involves respect for others...if only we all followed this thought, everyone would be much more happier.
KittyC
(North Carolina)

Posts:22


12/11/2006 8:02 AM  
Posted by RonW: "Harold, that is a stupid comment and it doesn't add anything usefull to the discussion. "

RonW: Practice what you preach.
BrianB
(California)

Posts:2820


12/11/2006 8:22 AM  
Technically Kitty, calling a comment stupid and a person stupid are two different, separate "crimes".

For instance, if I wrote "I like clowns" in response to a thread on parking cars, it could be very valid to say "Brian, that was a stupid comment, and had nothing to do with that thread". However, to impugn that I myself am an idiot (a fact I do not deny) would be a different issue, and be much more of a personal attack "Brian, your comment proves you are an idiot".

the comment about a comment is treading the line, and may be on the far side of it. a comment about a person's intelligence, mental status, heritage, etc. is across the line, according to HOA Talk rules of conduct.
PWells
(Washington)

Posts:34


12/11/2006 8:54 PM  
I wish I had only cat problems. Try having owners that have been in the HOA for more then 5 years and mentioned they plan to get a dog to a board member. Which the board nicely reminded that owner that the HOA House Rules states no animal/domestic pet is to exceed 30 lbs.
Then the owner proceed to purchase and bring home a dog the not only is large but exceeds that restriction by 4 times the limit. Is bad enough. Then when the board tries to enforce the rule the owner hunts down a board member and literally verbal assults that member infront of other owners and vendors.... makes ya wanna quit the board.
So I can totally understand having problems with animal/pet regulations.
Pam
RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:901


12/12/2006 4:47 AM  
Posted By PWells on 12/11/2006 8:54 PM

............ Then when the board tries to enforce the rule the owner hunts down a board member and literally verbal assults that member infront of other owners and vendors.... .


At that point I would quit being a "nice guy" and have the board attorney write the member a firm letter quoting the CC&Rs and giving him a time limit to remove the animal.

I would also document the incident including witness statements.



Ron
SC
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