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Subject: Suing the HOA board
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Author Messages
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/07/2013 4:21 AM  
Many people ask me how to sue their HOA without a lawyer.

You can save an incredible about of money....realistically $30-40,000 dollars when you sue your HOA pro-se! The courts really don't care if you have a lawyer or not! They DO hate un-represented people who have no idea of the RULES of court and civil litigation.

A good place to start to learn the RULES is to buy this guy's program:

http://www.jurisdictionary.com/

It was the most expensive part of my lawsuit, at almost $300 but was worth every penny.

This will give you an excellent idea of the basic structure of a lawsuit, the RULES that must be followed without fail, but it is still not a substitute for alot of additional hard work.

The RULES are simple, but must be adhered to in great detail...thats all!

Good luck suing your HOA board!
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


01/07/2013 7:19 AM  
I am done but wanted to give a word of warning about do it yourself suing...ANYONE can file a lawsuit for ANYTHING at ANYTIME does NOT make it right or means your going to win. It just means you followed a process to get a lawsuit in front of a judge. There is a whole LOT more to the process in what goes on in the courtroom. It is NOT like it is on TV including reality court shows. TV makes court sound like a "Justice for All" situation where you can sit in attack of the other party. In the end you only end up with a Judgement and NO real money no matter what...

Reality #1 of court. It can ONLY make you "whole". Which means it can ONLY return you back to the status the best it can before the whole situation started. That means that whatever money you were out in damages (REAL damages) is the award at the end. If you had to pay 1K to fix a fence and it was owned by the HOA, then you can sue for your 1K back. However, if you want to sue your HOA because it doesn't follow the rules, then monetary judgement isn't going to be awarded. The judge may just force the HOA to hold up it's end of the bargain by forcing it enforce rules. There's no monetary damages associated with failure to follow rules. It may even help empower the HOA to be able to place fines to make their rules stronger.

Reality #2. The judgement may or may NOT include your attorney's fees. The judge determines who is responsible for those. They could decide the whole case was so frivolous to make the filing party pay for ALL legal expenses on BOTH sides.

Reality #3. Acting as your own attorney can only mean you have a fool for a client. I believe Manson or another serial killer acted as his own attorney. He's doing well in prison I hear...The judge isn't going to "admire" your efforts in acting as your own attorney. Matter of fact, they don't like it too much as it can slow their day down. A grumpy judge is NOT the judge you want on your side.

This is reality of filing a court case on your own or even with a lawyer. It is just a case of "Watch out for what your wish for because you may get it"....

Former HOA President
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/07/2013 7:23 AM  
True...so sue your HOA board when they ignore the law, the governing documents or valid contracts.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


01/07/2013 7:35 AM  
Did they really when they told you no? Maybe they didn't but we will never know since you can't read or quote them.

Former HOA President
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/07/2013 7:51 AM  
Sure they did. I even have a letter from the ARC person who approved our house stating specifically what our ARC review allowed.

This letter was also sent to a guy down the street when he complained about my house...

When the guy down the street became President of the HOA 6 year latter....he ignored not only my signed, paid for, ARC approval, but also the letter which spelled out exactly the issue involved today.

Yes, he is crazy and unethical...but has the power to impose his will and ignore everything he wants to ignore.

This is called Fraud.

I also mailed this nut in 1995 asking him specificaly if he was going bother us with this issue when he came to power (he was dead set on getting his hands on power here)

He mailed me back and said NO WE WON'T DO ANYTHING, DON'T BE CONCERNED..

Obviously this is more than enough evidence to send these guys packing in court....but they said to us when we told them we had NO CHOICE but to sue....

SUE US....WE HAVE INSURANCE..

Which for all the reasons you so accurately state above...is TRUE! It is almost impossible for a homeowner to win...even when he does "win" in court.

This lowlife lying putz KNOWS this....and that is his entire motive for doing something so reprehensible...because he knows he can "get away with it", or at least be covered by insurance if the old college try fails.

This should more than explain why these HOA things disgust me (one of those homes belonged to a 92 year old man...which goes beyond ordinary fraud but violating public policy as well)

And should also explain why I am on a mission to administer some justice that I hope feels like a lead pipe to their face after the courts get through with this place.



MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


01/07/2013 8:01 AM  
Anyone else missing the Fraud connection here or is it just me? Missed it. Don't get it. Going to get tossed out of court for being filed under the WRONG classification and have to be refiled under the correct classification...Whatever that is cause the story changes and no facts presented. I don't see facts just words of opinion. Something the court doesn't take to kindly too.

Oh and that 92 year old man just got screwed by you too. So don't think your innoncent. Your lawsuit just effected him as well...Hope you enjoy looking someone in the face that you just stabbed in the back...Poor guy litterly doesn't have a clue of what you just did to his investment of his home and the increase of dues out of his pocket on a fixed income...Shame...

Former HOA President
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/07/2013 8:10 AM  
Geez...you don't have a clue..

If you are :"in the position you are in, because of the other parties conduct...that is fruad".

There are several great decisions (authoritative case law) that defines it exactly this way.

But your obtuse clueless statements define exactly why people like me refuse to "work this out with the Association Board".

Unqualified amatuer volunteers, with limited knowledge and even more limited intelligence, coupled with abysmal ethics...

That is par for the course in HOA land.

The courts are the only recourse for the folks, and there are a mountain of them now...who get ripped off, defrauded, stolen from and cheated by these crazy HOA places.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


01/07/2013 8:32 AM  
You my dear have shown everyone perfectly well exactly the epitome of that... Thank you as I am sure you have now convinced a few people who were thinking of suing NOT to do it. You have shed the light on the very people HOA typically are involved in when it comes to lawsuits or the threats of there of. Your not atypical. It is you and your behavior that gives a HOA a bad name. It's not those who dedicate the actual time and energy to doing beyond the complaining and threatening from their living room couch or computer monitor.

I am now even more proud of the fact that I served as President, Vice President, and Board member of my HOA. It really helped people be protected from people like you who are out to destroy things just because. Instead my HOA was out to ENJOY things and made our place a home. Heck, we even saved stray cats and kittens...Which to this day the area cat rescue name those cats after. I am and always will be proud of my HOA ties. Thank you.

Former HOA President
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/07/2013 8:39 AM  
Yes very nice.

But for those folks who come to this blog looking for information on Suing your Association Board..(the way I found it)

I say go for it! Put these weasels in their place and paste them with a legal determination, that like that awesome decision in Virginia:

Sued the HOA completely out of existence!
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


01/07/2013 8:42 AM  
Okay...sue your HOA out of existance...That should just help everybody in every situation. Oh yeah those in condos how is eliminating a HOA going to benefit them? How about those who must provide lawncare?

You don't even grasp what a HOA is to even say disbanding a HOA is the right thing to do. Until you get a grasp on that I wouldn't recommend to anybody to disband their HOA because someone doesn't like them. That's just NOT reality. Again REALITY!

Former HOA President
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/07/2013 8:58 AM  
The obligation to fund the common elements never goes away. There are many communities with expired restrictions and thus non-existant associations, that are still required to pay assessments for this. There are tons of town ordinances that take care of the legendary "cars on blocks" guy. (not that anyone who could afford to live here would even consider doing something like that)

REAL volunteers have taken over in these places...only they have no power to harass their neighbors. If they come and bother you with their view on the length of a blade of grass or the color of your lampshade...

You just tell em to beat it or you'll call the police for trespassing...

In other words...they have become normal American communities.

This would work perfectly for my community. The folks here are very nice...the developer was deep pocketed and put in excellent roads and infrastructure, it would be the best thing to happen in my community.

I would push for the roads to be turned over to the town though....why pay taxes and let the town off the hook for anything it would otherwise provide?

I mean the whole basis for HOAs is warped in the first place...pay taxes but get reduced services? Pay assessments but have no idea where they are going?

Find out the Association Board is walking around with Association credit cards....spending our money on their gas and food and God knows what else?

The whole pardigm is moronic and benefits board members..the more sleezy the more benefit...Crazy
JonD1


Posts:0


01/07/2013 9:23 AM  
Melissa:

I have to agree with you even with Mike's mail order law degree he knows little about the law or how court works.

Mike defines fraud to suit his needs. Mike thinks his case will bring the HOA to an end. It will not. Mike likes to tell himself he will destroy the Board members by taking their homes and assets. Probably not.

Mike mentioned his latest proof that HOAs took a man's home in Florida.
Well in fact they did. But what Mike failed to menion was this man failed to pay his CCs for 2 years. Was warnwed of legal action and to quote him "just blew them off" well Mike in his blind hatred of HOAs finds this offensive to life, liberty, and the US Constitution.

Guess in Mike's world of do as you please this man would have had nothing done and just let the rest of the owners pay their share.

The article can be found on the home page of this site. What I find even more interesting is that in the comments section Mike (Reardon) can't help but take yet another opportunity to badmouth ALL HOAs usinhg this one man's stupidity as fuel for his crusade.

Yes you are right Mike and people like him damage no only their properties but their property's images. I am sure people in Mike's AirPark bought there because it is a nice place to live. Judging from the going prices there only issue they have is Mike.

So I hold out no hope Mike can ever find his way back to the middle. His endless rants and raves repeating over and over again the same simpleminded one liners as if they in fact prove anything but his limitations get OLD fast. Mike is a zealot. Mike is on a mission. But it is fun reading his confused logic and justifications and the MORE he speaks the less people listen. In short time people see Mike for what he is. In short time people see Mike's true motivations.

Religious cult members chant short phrases as part of their group mentality. If you say it enough imes it becomes YOUR reality. Mike chants the same one liners to himself over and over again trying to increase the legions of his followers from "about a dozen" to almost the MILLIONS of like minded thinks Mike sees.

Mike will never get it. Mike can't get it. To far down the road o come back.

Now in this case has Mike helped his cause??????

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/07/2013 9:34 AM  
Yes folks,
Don't expect the board members to appreicate or even understand your suing them.
The fact that they richly deserve it will certainly never cross their minds.
The protection of your property is all that really matters in these places.
Just do what has to be done and DON"T engage these obdurate dopes in any discussion about it.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


01/07/2013 10:13 AM  
Who are now talking to Mike? You can't even convince the people in your theories you have a case. Would you not want us board people to be shaking in our boots?

You don't even know what harrassment is. You admitted that you are the one who harrassed the now president. A notice your in violation from a HOa is NOT harrassment by the court's definition. You on the other hand confronting or threatening in response is clearly the court dfinition of harrassment and ILLEGAL activity. You admitted it yourself with witnesses!!!

So until you can define what your suing for and what rules your HOA actually violated it would benefit you to post. Otherwise you sound like the very people you are calling out.


Former HOA President
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


01/07/2013 10:43 AM  
As Mike says, there will be others who will visit this thread in the future. Therefore, I wish to point out the following:

Regardless if you serve on a Board or not, all decisions have both intended and unintended consequences. Good decisions tend to have good consequences and bad decisions tend to have bad consequences.

Those who blindly say to sue your board or sue your membership don't have to live with the consequences and, in my opinion, should have their advice taken with a grain of salt. You (and your family) will be the one making the decision and you will be the one living with all consequences associated with that decision.

Legal action should be taken as a last resort. Those sources cited in this thread even specify that legal action should be a last resort. Legal battles take time, energy and money. Legal battles puts stress (either directly or indirectly) in your life and will most likely put stress on your family members as well.

There are certainly some battles worth fighting on principal alone. Is your battle worth this fight? Only you can make that decision. You know your finances, your stress level and what energy you wish to expend on the issue.

If you are going to "fight" your Association, I would strongly encourage you to first learn the laws, rules and reasons behind your Associations decision. Sort of a "know your enemy" approach. Attend board meetings and listen to the reasons behind the decisions. This is what the Board will be arguing and therefore, what you will have to defend against.

Board members, if you are going to "fight" your membership, I would strongly encourage you to first learn the laws, rules and reasons behind the Boards decisions. Then go and visit the member and listen to their reasons behind their decisions. This is what the member will be arguing and therefore, what you will have to defend against.

Next, if you see another option, offer it (often boards are rushing to make a decision to address the issue that they don't always see all the options available or they don't have the time to investigate all the options in the time allotted). Translation - COMPROMISE whenever possible.

Finally, if you are still considering legal action, decide what you want to achieve through the action and then consult one or two (or three or four) attorneys.

When you discuss your options with your attorney, try and identify all the intended and unintended consequences (win or lose) for taking such an action.
This way, you will be able to make an informed decision and by making an informed decision, you will experience more good than bad consequences associated with that decision.


FredO
(California)

Posts:198


01/07/2013 2:05 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 01/07/2013 10:43 AM
As Mike says, there will be others who will visit this thread in the future. Therefore, I wish to point out the following:

Regardless if you serve on a Board or not, all decisions have both intended and unintended consequences. Good decisions tend to have good consequences and bad decisions tend to have bad consequences.

Those who blindly say to sue your board or sue your membership don't have to live with the consequences and, in my opinion, should have their advice taken with a grain of salt. You (and your family) will be the one making the decision and you will be the one living with all consequences associated with that decision.

Legal action should be taken as a last resort. Those sources cited in this thread even specify that legal action should be a last resort. Legal battles take time, energy and money. Legal battles puts stress (either directly or indirectly) in your life and will most likely put stress on your family members as well.

There are certainly some battles worth fighting on principal alone. Is your battle worth this fight? Only you can make that decision. You know your finances, your stress level and what energy you wish to expend on the issue.

If you are going to "fight" your Association, I would strongly encourage you to first learn the laws, rules and reasons behind your Associations decision. Sort of a "know your enemy" approach. Attend board meetings and listen to the reasons behind the decisions. This is what the Board will be arguing and therefore, what you will have to defend against.

Board members, if you are going to "fight" your membership, I would strongly encourage you to first learn the laws, rules and reasons behind the Boards decisions. Then go and visit the member and listen to their reasons behind their decisions. This is what the member will be arguing and therefore, what you will have to defend against.

Next, if you see another option, offer it (often boards are rushing to make a decision to address the issue that they don't always see all the options available or they don't have the time to investigate all the options in the time allotted). Translation - COMPROMISE whenever possible.

Finally, if you are still considering legal action, decide what you want to achieve through the action and then consult one or two (or three or four) attorneys.

When you discuss your options with your attorney, try and identify all the intended and unintended consequences (win or lose) for taking such an action.
This way, you will be able to make an informed decision and by making an informed decision, you will experience more good than bad consequences associated with that decision.






Tim,

Well said. Hoever, I have yet to see my board follow or even attempt to follow your advice about talking to the disgruntled owner to understand the issue. The usual first response is for the board to circle their wagons and get ready for a fight. I think there are too many egos involved. For example, how dare a member take issue with how the board is doing the job.

As stated many times, the board members (and the dis-gruntled owner) seldom know what the governing documents allow. Once ego's take over (on either side) it is basically a fast lane to trouble. I have seen firsthand where one or more board members has lost sight of the intent of the developers vision for the community and instead are dead set on imposing their own personal view on the entire community. I have seen this happen due to apathy from other members not wanting to get involved on issues that they deem do not directly relate to them.
Sometimes a board is emboldened by the fact that previous decisions went unchallenged. This makes it easier the next time they tread that fine line between doing what is right for the community and what they want personally. This is where some of the trouble starts.

When homeowners and board members lose focus on the documents (intent) it is usually a forgone conclusion that problems will result. Do these have to be lawsuits? No, it shouldn't but it often ends up with posturing and threats of a lawsuit (from both sides).

Take the thread this week about the ADA issues and reasonable accommodations for a disabled owner. It winds down to a single board member who is the president and that persons ignorance of laws beyond their governing documents (IMHO). Sometimes an owner just can't win no matter how reasonable they approach the board.

You mention above that the board should met with the owner and a compromise should be worked out. Unfortunately that is not the case in many instances.

I have spoken to my Board and at our open meetings asking which of the board members represents me. They are all supposed to, yet no one does. The board is supposed to be following some sort of democratic process since the BoD is elected by popular vote. So, how come there is no access to these representatives outside the board meeting?

Should there be a board member an owner can come to to plead their case and "hopefully) have that board member represent their interest in the executive sessions and discussions. Shouldn't there be some form of democracy in this thing we call and HOA? It always resorts to an 'Us vs Them" scenario. I have lived in three different HOA's in my life and this aspect has been common to all of them. I can't speak for others but this has been my personal experience. I don't like it this way. If I have an issue, I would like to be able to bring it to a board member, get their take on it then determine if a rule change or variance is in order. Sometimes warranted, sometimes not. However, without rational discourse it becomes an automatic adversarial relationship.

This website this week is rife with some examples of HOA Boards taking action that in some ways supports MikeR's allegation that (some) HOA's are tin pot regimes. I don't agree with everything he says (about all HOA's) but if you see through the chaff he has a few good points. All it takes is one bad apple on a board to taint the whole board or HOA.

I just think that if a board or an HOA truly cares about its members and cares about the HOA's reputation then they should avail themselves of every opportunity to avoid litigation. Unfortunately, egos get in the way and play a really big part in preventing this (my opinion).
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


01/07/2013 3:05 PM  
I have lived in 5 HOA's and most of the issues I have seen were much more owner related, rather then BOD related:

1. Owners believing that nothing they signed was meant for them. What do you mean no storage sheds allowed?

2. Owners not understanding the complexities/economics of where they lived. If we all cut our own grass then our dues could be lower.

3. Dues being kept so low that the place fell into disrepair and it took years to get the majority of owners to see and agree to do something about it.

The one time I saw a BOD assume the our way or the highway attitude it took a few years of hard work by unhappy owners, but eventually enough owners joined it that the BOD was replaced a few at a time.

Usually if one cannot mount enough people to care about something (their cause) then they must ask themselves if they are the ones that are wrong.

The next time I see some "head case" saying yes I signed agreeing that animals were allowed but my 60 pound dog so soothes my nerves he is a "so and so" animal that I must be allowed to keep him under ABC, ADA, FHA, GOP, FYI, etc., I am going to puke all over my keyboard....


TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17766


01/07/2013 3:41 PM  
Posted By FredO on 01/07/2013 2:05 PM
I have yet to see my board follow or even attempt to follow your advice about talking to the disgruntled owner to understand the issue.




Fortunately, many Directors will take that time and make that effort.

Unfortunately, it's those Boards that don't make that effort that typically end up in the news and on blog sites.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


01/07/2013 4:14 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 01/07/2013 3:41 PM
Posted By FredO on 01/07/2013 2:05 PM
I have yet to see my board follow or even attempt to follow your advice about talking to the disgruntled owner to understand the issue.




Fortunately, many Directors will take that time and make that effort.

Unfortunately, it's those Boards that don't make that effort that typically end up in the news and on blog sites.





I agree with Tim. The two times I violated CC&R's (two diferent HOA's) I was called and/or visited by a BOD member and was informed of my mistakes. Both of which I thought were stupid rules, but I agreed to correct post haste.

Do not get me wrong. Some BOD's are made up of fools and stupidos and need to be eduacated and/or sued, but I believe the biggest majority of the problems are "some" owners, not BOD's.



FredO
(California)

Posts:198


01/07/2013 5:37 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 01/07/2013 4:14 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 01/07/2013 3:41 PM
Posted By FredO on 01/07/2013 2:05 PM
I have yet to see my board follow or even attempt to follow your advice about talking to the disgruntled owner to understand the issue.




Fortunately, many Directors will take that time and make that effort.

Unfortunately, it's those Boards that don't make that effort that typically end up in the news and on blog sites.





I agree with Tim. The two times I violated CC&R's (two diferent HOA's) I was called and/or visited by a BOD member and was informed of my mistakes. Both of which I thought were stupid rules, but I agreed to correct post haste.

Do not get me wrong. Some BOD's are made up of fools and stupidos and need to be eduacated and/or sued, but I believe the biggest majority of the problems are "some" owners, not BOD's.






JohnC,
I agree with you and Tim in this response. It is clear that all sides (both BOD's and the individual owners) have varying degrees of understanding (or interpretation) of their governing documents. yes, an HOA can end up in the news due to misguided actions from either side. Like I said, it only takes one bad board member to taint an otherwise great Board.

It comes down to both sides being willing to talk and communicate and in some cases to educate and compromise. Not every situation is pure black and white. Just because someone is on a board does not make them an all seeing God. Just like, not every owner is fully aware of the complexity of what it takes to run and/or administrate an HOA.

To those who have good intentions, my hat's off to you. To those that feel they are being victimized by a rogue board or board member, they have to first educate themselves hopefully before taking any action.

I often see a Ready, Shoot, Aim scenario (from both sides) in many HOA disputes.

Maybe you have seen the HOA exercise program I have encountered which consists of:
Jumping to conclusions, stabbing others in the back and dodging responsibilities, racing to action without knowing what the action is... LOL

SharonH9


Posts:0


01/07/2013 6:05 PM  
Very good advice from TimB and FredO. My husband and I were falsely accused and sued for tresspass among other things. All accusations were proved false by their own witnesses. Now the HOA documents have expired and the only way to revitalize is to get 100% agreement by the property owners. Of course we will never agree to that now. We really wanted to be part of the community and be part of the solution but this HOA has made that impossible. Complete investigation into all matters is essential. Fair and equal treatment is essential. It's unfortunate that some board members only serve to fulfill the required number of directors and don't take their positions that seriously or want to pick and chose what they want to be involved in. Then the big mouths take over and decisions are made that are not in the best interests of the members.
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


01/07/2013 6:14 PM  
I also need to make clear that it also only takes one disgruntled owner to taint an HOA too. I think we are all in agreement that litigation should be avoided. I have seen good and bad boards. Bad boards in that they are controlled by a bully who manages to convince or cajole other members into their way of thinking then there is a majority lock on the board for at least one, two or three election cycles. It takes years to transition out from the influence of a bad board.

I have followed the rules of every HOA I have lived in, whether or not I personally agreed with a given rule, I still followed it.
I have been the victim of fabricated violations just because I spoke up at a meeting or attempted to run for the board. In those instances, I have proved that the particular board member (or members) acted with Malice and acted outside their covered roles (D&O insurance).

Gee, come threaten fines and liens on me just because I submitted the form for board candidacy... seriously I never had a cross word to say to these people. Just wanted to do my part and help out and run for the board. Fully prepared for what the roll and responsibilities entail (I am a past Board member for other small companies and charities - so I have a pretty good idea of what to do.

I never did any mud slinging in the campaign process as I had no issue with the existing board other than me wanting to join the board and participate. However, that seems to be reason alone for retribution. After that, I started to take a much closer look at the dealing of the board and their decisions. I was not an enemy but i guess I was a threat to those that held a lock on the majority of the board. That threat had to be at their power and control over the HOA. My close look reveled that they had, in fact, drifted from the intent of the developer and were hell bent on making the community into what they considered to be their vision for the property. This examination uncovered some blatant violations of our CC&R's and blatant violations of the law.

A standard practice of this group was to put members who spoke up at general meetings under surveillance and write them up for any perceived or fabricated violation they could come up with. For example writing up a neighbor for something that the previous owner of that house had gotten a variance for. Sorry, but variances transfer with the property, they do not expire when the original grantee moves away and sells.

They could not find any violations on me so a board member entered onto my property and vandalized it so they could then write me up for a violation. Pretty good ethics wouldn't you say. (Witnessed from neighbor across the street who happened to be walking the dog early one morning)

The majority board members voted to send me threatening letters and fines while the minority board members said not to do it. (One of these board members is one of my witnesses now). Abuse of power..?? yes. Willful infliction of emotional stress? yes! Done with malice aforethought, you bet... Are these acts covered by the D&O Insurance... no way. The insurer has already provided documentation that they won't cover this.

What was my agenda coming to the board you ask... well I wanted the HOA to review the CC&R's and By-Laws and some of the policies. For example our tree damage policy violates Calif state law and should be changed.

For this they threaten to foreclose on my home and vandalize property to manufacture a non-compliance so they can fine me, attempt to take a lien out without following proper protocol or legal procedure.

Am I sour on HOA's, no! Am I sour on a few people who are idiots, you bet!

I had not seen this type of behavior at either of my two previous HOA's. So, I am left to conclude that it is just these specific individuals with no ethics or morals.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


01/07/2013 9:31 PM  
For this they threaten to foreclose on my home and vandalize property to manufacture a non-compliance so they can fine me, attempt to take a lien out without following proper protocol or legal procedure.

Good luck on this, I don't believe fines are lienable in CA and can only be used in foreclosures if the H/O is delinquent in assessments.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
FredO
(California)

Posts:198


01/07/2013 9:59 PM  
Posted By GlenL on 01/07/2013 9:31 PM
For this they threaten to foreclose on my home and vandalize property to manufacture a non-compliance so they can fine me, attempt to take a lien out without following proper protocol or legal procedure.

Good luck on this, I don't believe fines are lienable in CA and can only be used in foreclosures if the H/O is delinquent in assessments.





According to our documents, fines are categorized as "Special Individual Assessments" and thus a lien can be taken out. It is how they danced around the law.

We have three types of Assessments - Regular (what are commonly called your monthly dues), Special Assessments (resulting from special unplanned for costs like lawsuit damages being paid out or special repairs outside of budget) and Special *Individual* Assessments which are fines for violations.

As stated on this website numerous times by many people - Each HOA and their governing documents can be different and unique from other HOA's.

I have read our documents and can almost cite them from memory at this point. They state that fines are Assessments. If you refuse to pay a fine, you are refusing to pay an assessment per our rules. Hence a lien can be taken out. This policy is rife for abuse in threatening members who have challenged the board. It has been used in an abusive manner by my HOA in the past.
DoloresM2
(California)

Posts:60


01/08/2013 2:51 PM  
I really want to know how this ends.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


01/08/2013 3:29 PM  
For this they threaten to foreclose on my home and vandalize property to manufacture a non-compliance so they can fine me, attempt to take a lien out without following proper protocol or legal procedure.

I certainly hope you had the person who vandalized your property arrested and are taking them to court for restitution or to borrow Melissa's phrase "Be made whole."

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/08/2013 4:01 PM  
Fines are a govenmental power and should NEVER be delagated to a private entity.

One of the counts in my lawsuit against my HOA is for a declaration from the court that determines fines to be unlawful/unconstitutional.

Luckily for me, the board actually recorded in their minutes the fraudulent manipulation of the ballot when they asked homeowners to give them this power.

I am certain the courts will strip my HOA of this power, but I go further and ask the courts to determine this for the entire state.

I cite the Supreme Court decisions in both Virginia and Rhode Island, as well as an authority here in MA.

People on this site think I am being destructive by attempting to strip the Executive HOA board of most of their powers (legislative and judicial).

This is not true.

A fundemental principle of American Constitutional democracy is the seperation of powers. The absence of which is "the very defenition of tyranny" Fed #47.

Just read several of these posts and imagine how the "crime" of running for the board against entrenched members would be dealt with if they had no power to "persecute" this rude usurper to their power.

Imagine if the newsletter were open to this persons critisisms of the CC&Rs that run counter to state law.

But in HOA land, none of these fundemental protections exist...and they don't exist because they threaten board power.

Untimately?....It hurts us all and insults our rights to property (not to mention respectable, constrained government)
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


01/08/2013 4:09 PM  
This is getting tiring.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/08/2013 4:41 PM  
Which John....if you are a board member....

Kind of explains the necessity of going to court to get this done..
LauraR5
(Tennessee)

Posts:220


01/08/2013 8:32 PM  
Maybe this has been asked, and I am sorry if it has and I missed it, but, Mike, if you hate HOAs so much, why did you buy property in one? You have the right to live wherever you want, as do those of us who don't want to worry about how our lawn gets mowed or siding gets replaced.

Sounds like you are on a personal vendetta against homeowners associations, and that's an expensive cross to take up.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/09/2013 7:55 PM  
Yes I can live wherever I like.
And I like living exactly where I am.
I refuse to allow some pathetic tin pot banana republic republic to have any authority over my property.

Move to East Germany if you want to live in a place where neighbors rat on neighbors for brownie points from the Stasi..

Oh I forgot....even the East Germans sent those @$$hols packing!
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


01/09/2013 9:31 PM  
Mike every SuperHero needs a theme song, here's yours:

Mister Board Member never hangs around
When he hears this Mighty sound.

"Here I come to save the day"

That means that Mighty Mike is on his way.
Yes sir, when there is a HOA wrong to right
And the people are old or stupid to their plight,
Mighty Mike will join the fight.
On the sea or on the land,
He gets the HOA discrimination well in hand.


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/09/2013 11:33 PM  
It has to be some state that calls BS on this pathetic HOA system...I can't think of a more appropriate one than Massachusetts....

In case you are historically ignorant (fairly good bet amoung the dolts that populate this thread)...this is where we called BS on another assinine system...

But who knows? This might be a new brave new world of "private governance" that actually destroys our Constitutional Democracy...at least in our own homes.

Stay tuned and we will see.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


01/10/2013 12:07 AM  
Mike in case no one ever told you, let me let you in on a dirty little secret. Most jurisdictions don't have the tax base to fund things like pools and playgrounds because homes don't bring in the revenue that businesses do. So in order to get private individuals to pay for them; the local government more often than not requires builders to form an HOA to pay for them.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/10/2013 5:21 AM  

The municipality could care less about pools and what-not.

They like increasing the tax base, and decreasing the services. Period

Some one must they think they were brilliant for thinking this scheme up.

The kicker is the private governance that acts exactly like some third world banana republic that homeowners find themselves victomized by.

That is the true insult to Americans who think they are just being sold a home to live in.

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/10/2013 5:29 AM  
But like Truman (or was it Roosevelt) said, you can't fool them all the time.

The 95% of homeowners you NEVER see at your meetings are getting fed up.

One has to be subjected to the buffoonish tirade of a doltish board member just once...see above...

to aquire a deep disgust of the thing that seems designed to elevate someone like that to having power over your home.

SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3615


01/10/2013 5:32 AM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 01/09/2013 11:33 PM
It has to be some state that calls BS on this pathetic HOA system...I can't think of a more appropriate one than Massachusetts....


I dont know about that..... It seems the issues I see most often here are corruption, power, embezzling, backroom deals, people doing nothing yet receiving salaries hidden from members, etc .... which leads me to believe that the first HOA's probably began in Massachusetts. (wink)
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/10/2013 5:42 AM  
No Kidding!

Our third speaker of the house in a row, the most powerful position in the legislature here, just did the perp walk.

Three in a row!

I went to the legislature with my state rep. Matthew Patrick, to get a bill that would have required an HOA to get a majority of residents to approve any change in the governing documents.

This is BOILER PLATE language in every other state!

The members of the Joint Committee on Housing looked to the guys buying them lunch, dinner and who knows what else...the CAI....and sent the bill to "study"...meaning oblivian...

Hence...see above thread caption...the only place left is court!
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/10/2013 5:46 AM  
The courts on the other hand....gave the country Goodridge vs. Dept. of Public Health.

This declared denying same sex couples the same rights and obligations (marriage) as other people, unconstitutional.

This "shot" was heard round the country if not the world..with other states falling in line like dominoes.

So I give a thumbs up to our courts....and the finger to our legislature.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/10/2013 6:15 AM  
Ha Ha...and the classic picture of the state rep. stuffing bribe money in her underwear?

You doesn't appreciate that?
JonD1


Posts:0


01/10/2013 6:16 AM  
Posted By LauraR5 on 01/08/2013 8:32 PM
Maybe this has been asked, and I am sorry if it has and I missed it, but, Mike, if you hate HOAs so much, why did you buy property in one? You have the right to live wherever you want, as do those of us who don't want to worry about how our lawn gets mowed or siding gets replaced.

Sounds like you are on a personal vendetta against homeowners associations, and that's an expensive cross to take up.





Laura:

Sorry for the delay in addressing your comments. Seems you have a good grasp of Mike's source of motivation.

All HOAs suck his botom line.

But what is most telling and Mike menioned it in one of his numerous rants, when he went to Fla. to purchase a home to be near his parents, guess what he bought into?..........ANOTHER HOA!

Now I am sure there are medical professionals that might have some understanding of this sort of behavior better than I but from where I sit certainly reflects poorly on Mike's ability to think things through.



MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/10/2013 6:22 AM  
Try buying any single family in FL that is NOT in an HOA.

And HOAs could probably be tweaked to work somewhat how they should.

By stripping every power other than the Executive from the board (legislative and judicial)

Simple right?

That is what I am trying to do at least here in MA. (not to mention attempting to get the court to officially recognize the "banana republic" type governance that exists absent those constraints).

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10521


01/10/2013 6:41 AM  
You don't even know how government works or a corporation structure. The very thing your screaming for is exactly what you got. Our senators, representatives, president, and supreme court members are ALL US citizens. We elect them out of the general pool of ALL citizens to represent us in the operation of our country. Corporation boards are elected from the stockholders to represent them in the operation of the corporation. It is the SAME with a HOA. The member elect from the MEMBERS/OWNERS in the HOA to run the HOA on their behalf on daily operations/rule enforcement,

So the very people on your HOA board are also OWNERS/Members in the HOA. Whatever "damage" they cause to the HOA effects them just as much. HOA board isn't any more special other than they are the ones that were ELECTED and VOLUNTEERED to run the HOA. If they don't do it, then who will? Oh that is right...It will have to go to court who will assign it into CONSERVATIONSHIP and controlled by a lawyer/court or court assigned management company.

What does that mean? Well it means you have lost your entire right to vote and you pay whatever they say you pay. You no longer have any freedoms at all to decide anything in your HOA. You don't even get to elect a new board or even have anyone from your community be on the board unless they allow it. If they do, then it's NOT by election but by the CONSERVATOR.

So in destroying and removing all the rights away in your HOA, you just basically stripped everyone's freedoms and rights away. Including your own. So hope you like paying higher dues because the conservator can and will do that. Want to take them to court too? Good luck since it is the court that is controlling them and their decisions. How grea is that? No more government/corporation in your HOA instead you get a Dicatorship!!! Woo-Hoo! Just what you always wanted...

Former HOA President
JonD1


Posts:0


01/10/2013 6:43 AM  
Posted By MikeR15 on 01/10/2013 5:42 AM
No Kidding!

Our third speaker of the house in a row, the most powerful position in the legislature here, just did the perp walk.

Three in a row!

I went to the legislature with my state rep. Matthew Patrick, to get a bill that would have required an HOA to get a majority of residents to approve any change in the governing documents.

This is BOILER PLATE language in every other state!

The members of the Joint Committee on Housing looked to the guys buying them lunch, dinner and who knows what else...the CAI....and sent the bill to "study"...meaning oblivian...

Hence...see above thread caption...the only place left is court!





Mike Mike Mike you are drifing off ino he world of make believe again.
Your claim 95% of those property owners who don't attend meeting meetings are in YOUR mind signaling their disapproval with HOAs.

Then when your crusade took you to the legislature to consider YOUR demands according to you, "about a dozen people" showed up to support your efforts. Guess all the rest were busy that day. Sounds like crazy talk to me.

Now Mike plans to request not only HIS HOA abide by his rules he plans to ask the courts that his new standards be applied to ALL HOAs in the state of Ma. That to include among other nonsense removing the HOA's ability to issue fines. Now outside the world in which Mike resides I wonder just how many people would support this idea. Setting aside the 95% claim of support Mike thinks he has. (We all understand that is fantasy) So lets see Mike may have almost one dozen supporters but now wishes to impose HIS view of how things should and will be done on all Ma. HOAs. And id any of the other thousands of owners don't agree, what then????? Doesn't matter because Mike and Mike alone decides how things will work.

Mike seems to get more and more delusional in his rationalization of his views and beliefs. He has now become a mutation of Lincoln, Washington,
Paul Revere, Truman and Roosevelt all rolled into one. Fighting for liberty, justice and the American way.

I hope for his sake when he does appear in court he has the abilty to speak and present himslel as a rational human being. Here, IMO the cracks in his thought process are showing. When you start chanting over and over again the same tired buzz phrases, when you compare yourself to the civil rights movement, when you decide your cause has something in common with the American Revolution chances are in the world where I live you have gone round the bend.

Now I am sure leading up to the loss of his first lawsuit Mike pounded his chest and promissed his troops victory. Now he doesn't bother to mention that loss because it hurts his street cred. Now when Mike worked to have his legislation passed in the state house I am sure he promised victory to his "about a dozen" supporters. But that loss is explained away by the presence of the CAI reps. Seems Mike has explanations for all of his loses. And the truth he was never even close to what he claimed.

Now rather than waiting till this current matter is resolved Mike has gone on to the penalty phase and what he will have done once he goes through the simple motions of winning this case. Yes destroy his HOA, take the homes of the HOA Board members, take the assets of the HOA Board members and apply his guidelines to every HOA in his state. (Disregarding the fact most don't want any of what he is selling) Except for those alomost dozen strong supporters Mike sees in his imagination.

Is there any question WHY the HOA Board in his community might have issues with Mike?

Simple reality check, there is a BIG difference between the number making up 95% of HOA owners in Ma. and the "almost dozen" people who Mike claims supported his actions. Mike can't wrap his head around that.

My guess the court will quickly see Mike has a lifetime pass on the "crazy train" all aboard.........................
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3615


01/10/2013 7:36 AM  
Its Mass. If Mike can come up with some cash, I'm sure the politicians in Mass will stuff it in their underwear, and pass whatever bill you ask them to.
LauraR5
(Tennessee)

Posts:220


01/10/2013 7:42 AM  
I like my HOA. I deliberately bought a property in an HOA.

Why? Because I don't like to mow grass nor did I want to put my own roof on or power wash my siding. That, my friends, is well worth the money I pay each month.

Yeah, I have a few neighbors that are nibby and like to stir things up. But, you'll have that anywhere. And, in some ways, it's good to have neighbors who are nosy, because they keep an eye on your house and it makes you feel safer.

Oh wait, that sounds a lot like a community. Crazy, huh?

Basically, what I'm getting at here is that I like being in an HOA, and I don't like folks who don't like them buying into them and trying to disarm them. It's very foolish to assume that all of your neighbors are as disgruntled as you are and appreciate your efforts. I'm guessing you have folks like me that see the benefit of an HOA in your community too.

And my brother has a house in Florida that's not in an HOA. He had to put in his own playground equipment and clean his own pool.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11507


01/10/2013 7:43 AM  
Steve

Be careful. Sal D was a golfing buddy of mine........LOL
JonD1


Posts:0


01/10/2013 8:21 AM  
Posted By LauraR5 on 01/10/2013 7:42 AM
I like my HOA. I deliberately bought a property in an HOA.

Why? Because I don't like to mow grass nor did I want to put my own roof on or power wash my siding. That, my friends, is well worth the money I pay each month.

Yeah, I have a few neighbors that are nibby and like to stir things up. But, you'll have that anywhere. And, in some ways, it's good to have neighbors who are nosy, because they keep an eye on your house and it makes you feel safer.

Oh wait, that sounds a lot like a community. Crazy, huh?

Basically, what I'm getting at here is that I like being in an HOA, and I don't like folks who don't like them buying into them and trying to disarm them. It's very foolish to assume that all of your neighbors are as disgruntled as you are and appreciate your efforts. I'm guessing you have folks like me that see the benefit of an HOA in your community too.

And my brother has a house in Florida that's not in an HOA. He had to put in his own playground equipment and clean his own pool.





Laura:

First off we might want to let Mike know there are in fact homes in Fla. not in HOAs he couldn't find any.

And yes while you have a point all you need is one or a few bad apples to make life difficult. All Board members have them at some point or forever.

Now those that buy into HOAs and then develope this hate for them NEVER explain or admit why they bought in. In many cases the prices might be less than, in many cases the amenities might be more than, in many cases total cost inclusing taxes may be lower than. FOR SOME REASON YOU BOUGHT INTO THIS PROPERTY. WAS IT BECAUSE YOU DISLIKED IT?????

I am reminded of this owman years ago who moved in to rent. I spoke with her, the property was so quiet, kept so nice, trees, grass just the kind of place she was looking for. Within a few days she and her biker firends were guzzling beer while sitting on the front steps into the building their bikes parked all over the lawns. YEAH just the place I wish to live. When she was contacted and told this behavior was not permitted then everything went south. So living in a nice community is fine unless I wish to destroy it! Thanfully we had rules and fines and she moved on to some crap hole part of town where she fit in better. There are plenty where you can do as you please...............

Most people buy into their HOA with no understanding of how this operates. I did! Then they never take the time to educate themselves.
And truth be told some jus can't be educated.

Others simply live their lives and can't be bothered.

Out of more than 100 units we have maybe 2-3 stupidos.(John that word brings back memories for me!) One with clear mental issues, one whose limited mind has been soaked in booze for to long,and a few who just live to BITCH.

NONE get it. NONE ever will they are simply to limited. Can't see the big picture that we all either sink or swim together. One nut case here swears the area around her building is landscaped less than around hers.
YES! We use two sets of lawnmowers one to do a good job and the other to do a bad job! You caught us! She also thinks the flood lights on her building give off less light than the other buildings and when we don't address those concerns the Board is evil.

Will you ever rid yourself of the small minded, limited and in some cases demented folks? IMO I doubt it. Unless luck comes your way bigtime!

Yes, I hate my HOA and now I am going to sue them in court to make things right. Yes I hate my HOA so much I bought another one in Florida because I could not find any single family free standing homes in the state. Yes, the vast majority of people who don't bother to involve themselves in HOA affairs or show up at meetings do so because they support MY views in my legal battle with my HOA! FRUIT LOOPS!

So for me the important lesson that we can take away and that MIKE has shown us and continues to show us all with each new post is....... Always consider the sourse, validity, history, and value of the complaints lodged against single HOAs and as MIKE preaches every single HOA on planet Earth. In many cases there are issues involved far beyond HOA operations. I am a Board President not a mental health professional... Some people just live to do the crazy dance.

As Board members you just have to work around them best you can.....

And folks like Mike and the few that take things as far as he does, well they do damage to their "cause" with every word they utter. After people like Mike don't get validation they get louder and louder to get their way. Let a small child looking for Daddy's approval. (Come on folks who in their "RIGHT" mind comes to a site frequented by those serving on HOA Boards bad mouths ALL HOAs, then insults people who don't agree and then keeps coming back? Like some pathetic attempt to prove how righteous they are.) They insult folks they don't begin to know because they don't agree.

How do you deal with people like this??? IMO you don't....




MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/10/2013 6:02 PM  


My HOA "invented" the power to fine, by fraudulently manipulating the ballot (and incredibly recording the process in their minutes)

Sorry, that is NOT the contract I agreed to, and if they think I am going to accept it..they found out otherwise. Now I go to court to strip them of this power.

Simple.

What I find amazing is the hysterical oppostion to doing this from board members. Not to mention the nasty personal attacks that seem par for the course from these folks.

In Virginia an HOA bankrupted itself over this exact issue when they lost, and continued to lose in court. Another case in Virginia found that the HOA is liable for the homeowners costs in these suits.

These HOA board members, like religious fundementalists...maryter themselves and destroy the HOA rather than do the right thing!

Astounding!
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/13/2013 12:39 PM  
Hey! My case was just taken under advisement...no oral arguement necessary!

Lets see if I can't strip from these tin pot, banana republics the ability to fine!

Coming soon to a theatre near you!
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/13/2013 2:55 PM  
And Yes....I actually use the term "banana republic"

in my complaint against the HOA
KevinK7
(Florida)

Posts:1343


01/13/2013 4:00 PM  
Based on some of the comments you have made, I would think that at most the courts would rule against your HOA but not invalidate fining throughout the entire state. There didn't really seem to be anything precedent setting, unless I missed something.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/13/2013 4:53 PM  
Well yea, you missed the Virginia Supremem court ruling in Gilman...fines are a governmental power and can not be delegated to private entities..

And the Rhode Island Supreme Court in Foley...where they ruled that the act enabling condos to fine...an unconstitutional delegation of police and judicial power..

And hopefully in Mass...the same damn thing...only I go further...I ask the court to recognize the whole "banana republic" aspect of HOAs.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/13/2013 4:55 PM  
Because in my HOA..they actually record how they fraudulently manipulate the ballot to approve fines...

And this happens in EVERY HOA because there is NO CHAIN OF CUSTODY OF BALLOTS....anywhere...in ANY state where these pathetic things exist.
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/13/2013 5:07 PM  
My father served in Korea (187th Airborne RCT), was badly wounded and highly decorated fulfilling his oath to preseve and defend the Constitution...

If these cowardly Quislings think I will surrender these protections becaused I was suckered into buying a piece of land somewhere in the US of A...

Well I have one hand on my baseball bat...and the other writing a legal brief...

I am willing to use either to honor my father and everyone else like him...

MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/13/2013 5:46 PM  
And to the putz who writes....Mike, Mike Mike...EAT @#%$!

Go move to Cuba or the Soviet Union and write Stalin,Stalin Stalin....and see how long it takes before you are lined up in some ditch before the NKVD...

HOAs and their private governance are a pathetic joke to every American who fought and died to preserve our Constitutional Democracy.
GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:5491


01/13/2013 6:00 PM  
Mighty Mike how do you explain the States that have actually legislated HOA's the power to fine where it didn't occur in their original documents? And how about the HOA's that have the power to levy a Special Assessment against homeowners to cure violations?


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/13/2013 6:38 PM  
Easy...the scumbag attorneys who formed the Lobbying group..CAI.... pay our even more scumbag legislators to enact HOA laws that allow virtually anything they want..for a price.

Their problem is...our courts....a collection of acomplished jurists who view these people as scum....the lowest form of life even in lawyer land..which is saying alot!

I have faith in our courts...and hope to have them declare HOA land....the toilet of America
MikeR15
(Massachusetts)

Posts:389


01/13/2013 6:43 PM  
But who know? Maybe these scum have taken over our American system...so lets all rejoice in the trashing of our Constitutional democracy and the empowerment of the HOA system of governance!!!
LauraR5
(Tennessee)

Posts:220


01/13/2013 6:53 PM  
Every time I see someone fixing our siding after a storm, mowing our lawn or picking up my trash, I celebrate my HOA.

Managed communities are not for everyone. That's why you shouldn't live in one if you don't like it.

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