Board drama

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

We had a kerfuffle as a Board yesterday due to my arch critic. She manipulative, convincing, and a bit of a bully. I clearly can see that the career of attorney was a good choice for her.

Anyways, she fired off a letter to the property manager about some things. Our board member who is a bit gullible thinks she is on to something. I blocked her on my personal Facebook account, which she complained to the property manager about, and the gullible board member wants us to have a Board meeting agenda item to discuss how I operate my Facebook account. Well, this was riduculous. She's also claiming that we're running a crooked election because of my new electronic voting system, and is demanding that we go back to traditional proxies and in person voting instead. The gullible board member has decided that she might be on to something, as he knows nothing about electiosn but she is an attorney so is an expert, so he scheduled a private meeting with her to discuss her concerns. The last time he discussed her concerns, he started arguing against me at every turn.

The rest of the Board is scared of her, especially because of her attorney status. So they all go quiet or make a few meaningless comments.

Regardless, the outcome is that we have a lot of board drama every time she gets fired up and starts messing with our business. My vote is to not respond to her; but I'm outvoted everytime and folks decide that we need to meet with her, respond to her, or take other actions because she might know something.

I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions on how to minimize the board drama?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

For some context. Is she the one who's a former board member?

When you write "my" fb account, do you it's youronw? Or one set up for your HOA?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/15/2022 5:16 PM
For some context. Is she the one who's a former board member?

When you write "my" fb account, do you it's youronw? Or one set up for your HOA?

Yeah, she's the former Board member and HOA president who ran our HOA for about 7 years. We incurred over $250,000 in legal fees under her tenure (I have receipts & cancelled checks to back up that statement).

Regarding social media, I blocked her from my personal social media account. I did setup a Facebook group that matches the name of our HOA. She is a member of that group. That group is not run by the HOA but rather than my wife and I in our capacity as private homeowners. It's owned by corporation that owns the social media platform. However, since I blocked her, she cannot see any of my posts in that group. This gullible board member wants us to discuss as a group whether I am allowed to block homeowners on my personal social media account. I don't consider my personal social media account to be up to board discussion.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/15/2022 5:27 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/15/2022 5:16 PM
For some context. Is she the one who's a former board member?

When you write "my" fb account, do you it's youronw? Or one set up for your HOA?

Yeah, she's the former Board member and HOA president who ran our HOA for about 7 years. We incurred over $250,000 in legal fees under her tenure (I have receipts & cancelled checks to back up that statement).

Regarding social media, I blocked her from my personal social media account. I did setup a Facebook group that matches the name of our HOA. She is a member of that group. That group is not run by the HOA but rather than my wife and I in our capacity as private homeowners. It's owned by corporation that owns the social media platform. However, since I blocked her, she cannot see any of my posts in that group. This gullible board member wants us to discuss as a group whether I am allowed to block homeowners on my personal social media account. I don't consider my personal social media account to be up to board discussion.

You have some very serious issues. I would get help!

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/15/2022 4:54 PM
We had a kerfuffle as a Board yesterday due to my arch critic. She manipulative, convincing, and a bit of a bully. I clearly can see that the career of attorney was a good choice for her.

Anyways, she fired off a letter to the property manager about some things. Our board member who is a bit gullible thinks she is on to something. I blocked her on my personal Facebook account, which she complained to the property manager about, and the gullible board member wants us to have a Board meeting agenda item to discuss how I operate my Facebook account. Well, this was riduculous. She's also claiming that we're running a crooked election because of my new electronic voting system, and is demanding that we go back to traditional proxies and in person voting instead. The gullible board member has decided that she might be on to something, as he knows nothing about electiosn but she is an attorney so is an expert, so he scheduled a private meeting with her to discuss her concerns. The last time he discussed her concerns, he started arguing against me at every turn.

The rest of the Board is scared of her, especially because of her attorney status. So they all go quiet or make a few meaningless comments.

Regardless, the outcome is that we have a lot of board drama every time she gets fired up and starts messing with our business. My vote is to not respond to her; but I'm outvoted everytime and folks decide that we need to meet with her, respond to her, or take other actions because she might know something.

I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions on how to minimize the board drama?

You brought the issue of fair elections on yourself. You created a method that is ripe for abuse and conflict and once your arch critic knows this your back is going to be against the wall.

Now you had the brilliant idea to create a personal Facebook page with your community name and blocked her. Personally, I think she has a point. Both the election and the Facebook issue stem from your incessant need to control everything and eventually it will be your downfall if you don't knock it off.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I kind of think she is onto something too... Plus calling your fellow board members "guilable" several times indicates more about you and your insecurities. I don't think they are being blinded by anything.

First off even in the U.S. elections we don't really have "Electronic" voting. You may cast your vote on an "electronic" machine but it is usually by person or sent in ballot. Not sure why or if a HOA should also change to electronic voting. That would take changes to the documents first before that could be insituted. Plus some states still do not allow electronic voting. Surprisingly, many laws in our country are not updated to current electronic processess.

How is your private FB account labelled? Does it have your personal name or the HOA? Do you have "friends" from the HOA like a group? If it doesn't come across as a personal page, then it's NOT a personal page. Are you the Admin for the page?

You have a history of posting things that yes you are the A-Hole on. How your taking her criticism and then insulting others as it's them being "suckers" isn't a good look.

Former HOA President

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

$250,000 in legal bills indicates a dysfunctional Association and Board. Time to move.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/16/2022 4:31 AM
Not sure why or if a HOA should also change to electronic voting. That would take changes to the documents first before that could be insituted.

nahh all it takes is a worldwide pademic killing millions to motivate state law makers to allow for remote meetings and electronic voting. there were many states taht passed electronic voting laws during Covid, google it. totally legal now.

vis ta vie

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Well, Michael, I can’t say I’m surprised about this turn of events. A week or so ago, you bragged about the electronic voting system you bought to the community, saying it was “utter genius”. You sounded like Wile E. Coyote and I thought “his next post is going to be about something that went sideways in a big way.” This is right on schedule.

I don’t think the arch rival has a right to dictate how you run your personal Facebook page – and I hope you have the good sense to tell whoever’s in the group that discussions of association business are best left to Board meetings, so there’s no confusion as to who said what. It’s not because you aren’t entitled to your personal opinion of things, but you know some people will rush to tell the other side. You’re also the Board president and sometimes the appearance of foolishness can be just as devastating as the reality.

Tell your board how you feel – in an open meeting, but if they outvote you to hold an executive session, all you can do at that point is speak your piece and make this attorney explain why she feels she should have access to a private page. She wants to take legal action on this, you could countersue and may the best person win. I believe you also have a board election coming up, so you can put up your accomplishments against hers, and then let the people decide.

(Boy, your “meet the candidates night” should be really interesting. I hope everyone brings popcorn.)

As for your tendency to brag, you may want to ponder the following: the fool talks about what he’s gonna do; the boaster talks about what he has done – and the wise man does and says nothing.

Also this: it’s not bragging if you can back it up (Muhammad Ali).

Put another way – just do the damn thing to the best of your ability and let your accomplishments speak for themselves.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/15/2022 4:54 PM
We had a kerfuffle as a Board yesterday due to my arch critic. She manipulative, convincing, and a bit of a bully. I clearly can see that the career of attorney was a good choice for her.

Anyways, she fired off a letter to the property manager about some things. Our board member who is a bit gullible thinks she is on to something. I blocked her on my personal Facebook account, which she complained to the property manager about, and the gullible board member wants us to have a Board meeting agenda item to discuss how I operate my Facebook account. Well, this was riduculous. She's also claiming that we're running a crooked election because of my new electronic voting system, and is demanding that we go back to traditional proxies and in person voting instead. The gullible board member has decided that she might be on to something, as he knows nothing about electiosn but she is an attorney so is an expert, so he scheduled a private meeting with her to discuss her concerns. The last time he discussed her concerns, he started arguing against me at every turn.

The rest of the Board is scared of her, especially because of her attorney status. So they all go quiet or make a few meaningless comments.

Regardless, the outcome is that we have a lot of board drama every time she gets fired up and starts messing with our business. My vote is to not respond to her; but I'm outvoted everytime and folks decide that we need to meet with her, respond to her, or take other actions because she might know something.

I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions on how to minimize the board drama?

Michael, the first thing you need to do is entertain the notion that sometimes you might be wrong about things, and sometimes people who you dislike are right.

Regarding the two specific issues in front of you right now - the election and the community Facebook page - my take is this.

Others pointed out to you that your method of conducting elections is open to a great deal of criticism. You cheap-and-dirty electronic voting can easily be manipulated, and there is an inherent conflict of interest in you running the election yourself. You have always claimed that none of this matters because you do not have contested elections, but this is a weak excuse. You should take the time to write a set of guidelines for conducting elections that remove interested parties from the process and ensure voting cannot be rigged. Davis-Sterling and California code is an excellent starting place. This way you a)address criticism of the process, and b)have something already established and in place in case you ever do have a contested election. This is simply good management.

The Facebook group is less clear-cut, but in my opinion it is a terrible idea for a board member (or their spouse) to administer a community Facebook Group, as it gives the appearance of being an official reflection of the Board of Directors. It also opens you up to the kind of criticism you are receiving right now. You certainly have a legal right to use social media however you see fit. But operating a Facebook Group with your community name, and posting to it, is bound to cause confusion. I would ask a homeowner who is not on the board to take over administration of the Group. If no one is willing, then just shut the group down. It is not needed. The board can send emails as often as they want to provide official Association information. I believe rather than just saying everybody is stupid and gullible, you ought to have a discussion with the board about how the Facebook Group is administered, and how members of the board will utilize it. Again, this is simply good management.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/15/2022 5:27 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/15/2022 5:16 PM
For some context. Is she the one who's a former board member?

When you write "my" fb account, do you it's youronw? Or one set up for your HOA?

Regarding social media, I blocked her from my personal social media account. I did setup a Facebook group that matches the name of our HOA. She is a member of that group. That group is not run by the HOA but rather than my wife and I in our capacity as private homeowners. It's owned by corporation that owns the social media platform. However, since I blocked her, she cannot see any of my posts in that group. This gullible board member wants us to discuss as a group whether I am allowed to block homeowners on my personal social media account. I don't consider my personal social media account to be up to board discussion.

Michael, just to be clear: you are Facebook Friends with your arch enemy? And because you blocked her she cannot see your posts on the community Facebook Group?
i
Wouldn't this be resolved if you simply unblocked her and dropped her as a friend?

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 5:57 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/15/2022 5:27 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/15/2022 5:16 PM
For some context. Is she the one who's a former board member?

When you write "my" fb account, do you it's youronw? Or one set up for your HOA?

Regarding social media, I blocked her from my personal social media account. I did setup a Facebook group that matches the name of our HOA. She is a member of that group. That group is not run by the HOA but rather than my wife and I in our capacity as private homeowners. It's owned by corporation that owns the social media platform. However, since I blocked her, she cannot see any of my posts in that group. This gullible board member wants us to discuss as a group whether I am allowed to block homeowners on my personal social media account. I don't consider my personal social media account to be up to board discussion.

Michael, just to be clear: you are Facebook Friends with your arch enemy? And because you blocked her she cannot see your posts on the community Facebook Group?
i
Wouldn't this be resolved if you simply unblocked her and dropped her as a friend?

no that is not how groups work on FB. anyone in the group is visible regardless of freinnd status.

vis ta vie

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

With regards to social media, it's my personal account. I've had this account since 2007 and it's the account that I am friends with my family and high school classmates and members of a variety of interest groups. I blocked her so she cannot message me or see my content, as I was receiving impolite messages from her. How I use my personal social media account is not subject to Board or homeowner review.

With regards to elections, the concern is not about the 'electronic' aspect. It's the fact we are collecting absentee ballots. She is demanding that we return to the old-school style of in person meetings and proxies. That ship sailed. Homeowners don't want in person meetings. Board members don't want to knock on doors to collect proxies. There are better ways of doing things today.

But, as other board members say, they don't know anything about elections so she might be right....

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:32 AM
With regards to social media, it's my personal account. I've had this account since 2007 and it's the account that I am friends with my family and high school classmates and members of a variety of interest groups. I blocked her so she cannot message me or see my content, as I was receiving impolite messages from her. How I use my personal social media account is not subject to Board or homeowner review.

With regards to elections, the concern is not about the 'electronic' aspect. It's the fact we are collecting absentee ballots. She is demanding that we return to the old-school style of in person meetings and proxies. That ship sailed. Homeowners don't want in person meetings. Board members don't want to knock on doors to collect proxies. There are better ways of doing things today.

But, as other board members say, they don't know anything about elections so she might be right....

Michael - you did not answer my questions about Social media. You say it is your personal account, but earlier you seemed to say that because you blocked her on your personal account, she cannot see your posts in the community Facebook Group. In which case this is something affecting both your personal FB postings and also your community FB postings.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 6:55 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:32 AM
With regards to social media, it's my personal account. I've had this account since 2007 and it's the account that I am friends with my family and high school classmates and members of a variety of interest groups. I blocked her so she cannot message me or see my content, as I was receiving impolite messages from her. How I use my personal social media account is not subject to Board or homeowner review.

With regards to elections, the concern is not about the 'electronic' aspect. It's the fact we are collecting absentee ballots. She is demanding that we return to the old-school style of in person meetings and proxies. That ship sailed. Homeowners don't want in person meetings. Board members don't want to knock on doors to collect proxies. There are better ways of doing things today.

But, as other board members say, they don't know anything about elections so she might be right....

Michael - you did not answer my questions about Social media. You say it is your personal account, but earlier you seemed to say that because you blocked her on your personal account, she cannot see your posts in the community Facebook Group. In which case this is something affecting both your personal FB postings and also your community FB postings.

She can't see any content that I post on the social media site.

We don't use the social media site for official HOA communication (we use e-mail blasts instead). Any other Board member is welcome to post on social media if desired, it doesn't have to be me.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:59 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 6:55 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:32 AM
With regards to social media, it's my personal account. I've had this account since 2007 and it's the account that I am friends with my family and high school classmates and members of a variety of interest groups. I blocked her so she cannot message me or see my content, as I was receiving impolite messages from her. How I use my personal social media account is not subject to Board or homeowner review.

With regards to elections, the concern is not about the 'electronic' aspect. It's the fact we are collecting absentee ballots. She is demanding that we return to the old-school style of in person meetings and proxies. That ship sailed. Homeowners don't want in person meetings. Board members don't want to knock on doors to collect proxies. There are better ways of doing things today.

But, as other board members say, they don't know anything about elections so she might be right....

Michael - you did not answer my questions about Social media. You say it is your personal account, but earlier you seemed to say that because you blocked her on your personal account, she cannot see your posts in the community Facebook Group. In which case this is something affecting both your personal FB postings and also your community FB postings.

She can't see any content that I post on the social media site.

We don't use the social media site for official HOA communication (we use e-mail blasts instead). Any other Board member is welcome to post on social media if desired, it doesn't have to be me.

Yes you do. Your previous comment was "I did setup a Facebook group that matches the name of our HOA" There is absolutely no reason for you to do this. Optics matter but you seem incapable of understanding this and your actions invite criticism which can reflect on the entire Board.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

It looks to me like this lawyer/member is probably right that the electronic voting system and no proxies violates statutes and the bylaws.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/16/2022 7:21 AM
It looks to me like this lawyer/member is probably right that the electronic voting system and no proxies violates statutes and the bylaws.

No, Washington State legislature passed a law allowing for absentee voting in all HOAs in the state, regardless of what is stated in the bylaws. It further states that electronic systems, if used, need to employ a system that validates that an authorized homeowner is the one that cast the ballot. Our absentee balloting system meets these requirements.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 7:24 AM
Posted By ElleN on 12/16/2022 7:21 AM
It looks to me like this lawyer/member is probably right that the electronic voting system and no proxies violates statutes and the bylaws.

No, Washington State legislature passed a law allowing for absentee voting in all HOAs in the state, regardless of what is stated in the bylaws. It further states that electronic systems, if used, need to employ a system that validates that an authorized homeowner is the one that cast the ballot. Our absentee balloting system meets these requirements.

And we have your word to go on?

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:59 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 6:55 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:32 AM
With regards to social media, it's my personal account. I've had this account since 2007 and it's the account that I am friends with my family and high school classmates and members of a variety of interest groups. I blocked her so she cannot message me or see my content, as I was receiving impolite messages from her. How I use my personal social media account is not subject to Board or homeowner review.

With regards to elections, the concern is not about the 'electronic' aspect. It's the fact we are collecting absentee ballots. She is demanding that we return to the old-school style of in person meetings and proxies. That ship sailed. Homeowners don't want in person meetings. Board members don't want to knock on doors to collect proxies. There are better ways of doing things today.

But, as other board members say, they don't know anything about elections so she might be right....

Michael - you did not answer my questions about Social media. You say it is your personal account, but earlier you seemed to say that because you blocked her on your personal account, she cannot see your posts in the community Facebook Group. In which case this is something affecting both your personal FB postings and also your community FB postings.

She can't see any content that I post on the social media site.

We don't use the social media site for official HOA communication (we use e-mail blasts instead). Any other Board member is welcome to post on social media if desired, it doesn't have to be me.

And you are speaking about the social media site that is named after your HOA and administered by the board's president and his wife, correct?

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 7:52 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:59 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 6:55 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:32 AM
With regards to social media, it's my personal account. I've had this account since 2007 and it's the account that I am friends with my family and high school classmates and members of a variety of interest groups. I blocked her so she cannot message me or see my content, as I was receiving impolite messages from her. How I use my personal social media account is not subject to Board or homeowner review.

With regards to elections, the concern is not about the 'electronic' aspect. It's the fact we are collecting absentee ballots. She is demanding that we return to the old-school style of in person meetings and proxies. That ship sailed. Homeowners don't want in person meetings. Board members don't want to knock on doors to collect proxies. There are better ways of doing things today.

But, as other board members say, they don't know anything about elections so she might be right....

Michael - you did not answer my questions about Social media. You say it is your personal account, but earlier you seemed to say that because you blocked her on your personal account, she cannot see your posts in the community Facebook Group. In which case this is something affecting both your personal FB postings and also your community FB postings.

She can't see any content that I post on the social media site.

We don't use the social media site for official HOA communication (we use e-mail blasts instead). Any other Board member is welcome to post on social media if desired, it doesn't have to be me.

And you are speaking about the social media site that is named after your HOA and administered by the board's president and his wife, correct?

I sure am. As president you have created a Facebook group in the HOA's name. There is no other reason to use this name unless it is about the community. You have now determined that you can control it anyway you want and have shown this by banning someone. Forget about the legal aspects of this. It is just plain wrong because you are inviting controversy that will blow back on the entire Board. You own and control the voting software and now the Facebook group and you personally bought website names tied to your HOA's name and kept them in your name.

You a control freak Michael and if this lawyer decides to really go after you I have no doubt that she will find a way to bury you.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 12/16/2022 8:18 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 7:52 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:59 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 6:55 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:32 AM
With regards to social media, it's my personal account. I've had this account since 2007 and it's the account that I am friends with my family and high school classmates and members of a variety of interest groups. I blocked her so she cannot message me or see my content, as I was receiving impolite messages from her. How I use my personal social media account is not subject to Board or homeowner review.

With regards to elections, the concern is not about the 'electronic' aspect. It's the fact we are collecting absentee ballots. She is demanding that we return to the old-school style of in person meetings and proxies. That ship sailed. Homeowners don't want in person meetings. Board members don't want to knock on doors to collect proxies. There are better ways of doing things today.

But, as other board members say, they don't know anything about elections so she might be right....

Michael - you did not answer my questions about Social media. You say it is your personal account, but earlier you seemed to say that because you blocked her on your personal account, she cannot see your posts in the community Facebook Group. In which case this is something affecting both your personal FB postings and also your community FB postings.

She can't see any content that I post on the social media site.

We don't use the social media site for official HOA communication (we use e-mail blasts instead). Any other Board member is welcome to post on social media if desired, it doesn't have to be me.

And you are speaking about the social media site that is named after your HOA and administered by the board's president and his wife, correct?

I sure am. As president you have created a Facebook group in the HOA's name. There is no other reason to use this name unless it is about the community. You have now determined that you can control it anyway you want and have shown this by banning someone. Forget about the legal aspects of this. It is just plain wrong because you are inviting controversy that will blow back on the entire Board. You own and control the voting software and now the Facebook group and you personally bought website names tied to your HOA's name and kept them in your name.

You a control freak Michael and if this lawyer decides to really go after you I have no doubt that she will find a way to bury you.

Nobody was banned from the group.

Website names are owned by the HOA per board vote.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 7:52 AM
Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:59 AM

Posted By DavidG45 on 12/16/2022 6:55 AM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 6:32 AM
With regards to social media, it's my personal account. I've had this account since 2007 and it's the account that I am friends with my family and high school classmates and members of a variety of interest groups. I blocked her so she cannot message me or see my content, as I was receiving impolite messages from her. How I use my personal social media account is not subject to Board or homeowner review.

With regards to elections, the concern is not about the 'electronic' aspect. It's the fact we are collecting absentee ballots. She is demanding that we return to the old-school style of in person meetings and proxies. That ship sailed. Homeowners don't want in person meetings. Board members don't want to knock on doors to collect proxies. There are better ways of doing things today.

But, as other board members say, they don't know anything about elections so she might be right....

Michael - you did not answer my questions about Social media. You say it is your personal account, but earlier you seemed to say that because you blocked her on your personal account, she cannot see your posts in the community Facebook Group. In which case this is something affecting both your personal FB postings and also your community FB postings.

She can't see any content that I post on the social media site.

We don't use the social media site for official HOA communication (we use e-mail blasts instead). Any other Board member is welcome to post on social media if desired, it doesn't have to be me.

And you are speaking about the social media site that is named after your HOA and administered by the board's president and his wife, correct?

Yes I was. I posted another reply directly thinking it was Michael. Sorry about that.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

So what if Washington has passed electronic voting laws? What is the process in YOUR HOA documents say about voting process?

I think people get confused about being compliant to local, state, and federal laws and incorporating them. The two do not automatically override each other. You go by defined processes till changed by majority vote of members.

I do not think Electronic voting is best voting method. Overall it has too many issues for me to be comfortable with and the laws.

Former HOA President

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Mike, in this legislation, you're likely misreading a "may" or ignoring the legislation's deferral to the bylaws. The lawyer/member probably has it right.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Along with Max & ElleN, please exactly cite the WA legislation that you're relying on MichaelT. And the date if became effective.

I think it very well may exist because more states are permitting electronic voting in HOAs.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

PS. Our board has had 3 lawyer members in the past 5 years. 2 learned a few things about CA HOA statutes--there are a lot--and fabricated everything else.

A new member was a personal injury lawyer in another state. The crackpot statements he's made on our at open board meetings are ignorant of state laws and our own documents.

Based on this tiny sample, it's very possible the lawyer in MichaelT's HOA is similar.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

RCW 64.80

(1) Owners may vote at a meeting in person, by absentee ballot pursuant to subsection (3)(d) of this section, or by a proxy pursuant to subsection (5) of this section.
(3) At a meeting of owners the following requirements apply:
(d) Whenever proposals or board members are to be voted upon at a meeting, an owner may vote by duly executed absentee ballot if:
(i) The name of each candidate and the text of each proposal to be voted upon are set forth in a writing accompanying or contained in the notice of meeting; and
(ii) A ballot is provided by the association for such purpose.

This was passed by the 2021 legislature.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

I think everyone is missing the point. You all are looking at technical reasons why the attorney's concerns are valid. Things like questions about electronic voting, or technical comments about ownership of social media groups. While that is what her concern stated, that is not the reason for her letter.

The reason for her letter is that she was upset that my name was on the ballot, and we had equal number of positions open and candidates, thus, I will be re-elected to the Board by definition. She does not want me on the Board. She had told the Board, during homeowner forum, that she planned to have several candidates from her part of the community submit their names and she would launch a campaign to have me outvoted. When she saw the ballot, she saw that none of her people submitted their names and thus she could not launch a campaign to have me voted off of the Board. This upset her. Then everyone on the Board got spooled up by her letter, and like all of you, starting trying to find technical reasons why her letter may have merit and we all started getting upset with each other.

In reality, none of the people in her group want to be on the Board. Likely, because people in the community are overall satisfied with the job that we are doing. Yes, there are a few exceptions, primarily people who have received compliance letters. No HOA will satisfy everyone. But I think people are generally happy.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

You're misinterpreting the "may" and the "or".

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Sounds like YOUR reasons you are assigning it to be. It does not make it the reality that it is. I can not go by your assigned reasons why she is doing what she is doing. I can go by the facts she brings up. Which are the electronic voting and banning off a Facebook page set up to look like HOAs. Plus candidates can choose any reason they choose not to be on the ballot. It may be the simple fact they do not want the job.

Example: had a boss who insisted that I wanted a job that would have me working under his org. He was dead set me not getting the position even though was qualified and many suggested I apply. He hired a guy he liked instead. Well he went around saying that I had wanted the job. Like it was to hurt me. That I was devastated did not get it. The truth? I could not stand that boss at all. The idea of working for him made me throw up in my mouth a Little. His mind he thought he got the better of me and ha ha. My thoughts were I dodged a bullet...

My point stop assigning them your logic and reason. It could be that it is what it is...

Former HOA President

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/16/2022 10:33 AM
You're misinterpreting the "may" and the "or".

I don't see how I am misinterpreting it.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

When a statute says "may", this isn't the same as the statute saying "notwithstanding the bylaws/declaration, a HOA shall provide for voting by at least one of the following methods: absentee ballot; proxy; in-person at the meeting." With a "may", the bylaws do not get thrown out the window like you're doing. The lawyer/member is right that you took away her right to gather proxies.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/16/2022 11:06 AM
When a statute says "may", this isn't the same as the statute saying "notwithstanding the bylaws/declaration, a HOA shall provide for voting by at least one of the following methods: absentee ballot; proxy; in-person at the meeting." With a "may", the bylaws do not get thrown out the window like you're doing. The lawyer/member is right that you took away her right to gather proxies.

Wow, assuming this is true Michael is in a real pickle. If this goes to court the homeowner/lawyer can represent herself for free. Michael on the other hand will have to use HOA funds to defend himself. The longer it drags out the only one getting hurt financially is the HOA and everyone that lives there.

It may be time to lawyer up Mr. CEO.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Michael misquoted the statute number.

The actual applicable statute is WASHINGTON UNIFORM COMMON INTEREST OWNERSHIP ACT, RCW 64-90 (not 64-80). The specific statute on electronic voting is RCW 64.90.455.

I also do not believe Michael is misinterpreting the words may and or.

Per that section, a member may vote in person OR via absentee ballot OR via proxy (members choice).

The statute does say "at a meeting" so I would expect that any absentee ballots or directed proxies that may have been received are not actually counted until the meeting. If they are, this could cause issues.

Additionally, I hope that nobody who is on the ballot would have access to the absentee ballots until AFTER they have been counted at that meeting. Not a requirement but does provide poor optics of a fair election.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Going to Tim's link, the statute says, "Unit owners may vote at a meeting in person, by absentee ballot pursuant to subsection (3)(d) of this section, or by a proxy pursuant to subsection (5) of this section." If ur gonna interpret the 'may' the way he does, then proxies have to be allowed. If mike's election notice indicated no proxies are allowed, then the lawyer/member still has a point.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 462

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/16/2022 12:11 PM
Going to Tim's link, the statute says, "Unit owners may vote at a meeting in person, by absentee ballot pursuant to subsection (3)(d) of this section, or by a proxy pursuant to subsection (5) of this section." If ur gonna interpret the 'may' the way he does, then proxies have to be allowed. If mike's election notice indicated no proxies are allowed, then the lawyer/member still has a point.

Proxies are allowed. No one turned in a proxy last year though and I don't expect anyone to turn in a proxy this year.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

your other thread says u did away with proxies.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 12/16/2022 10:30 AM
I think everyone is missing the point. You all are looking at technical reasons why the attorney's concerns are valid. Things like questions about electronic voting, or technical comments about ownership of social media groups. While that is what her concern stated, that is not the reason for her letter.

The reason for her letter is that she was upset that my name was on the ballot, and we had equal number of positions open and candidates, thus, I will be re-elected to the Board by definition. She does not want me on the Board. She had told the Board, during homeowner forum, that she planned to have several candidates from her part of the community submit their names and she would launch a campaign to have me outvoted. When she saw the ballot, she saw that none of her people submitted their names and thus she could not launch a campaign to have me voted off of the Board. This upset her. Then everyone on the Board got spooled up by her letter, and like all of you, starting trying to find technical reasons why her letter may have merit and we all started getting upset with each other.

In reality, none of the people in her group want to be on the Board. Likely, because people in the community are overall satisfied with the job that we are doing. Yes, there are a few exceptions, primarily people who have received compliance letters. No HOA will satisfy everyone. But I think people are generally happy.

You are changing your story.

You initially said she had a couple of complaints, those complaints are not valid, and your fellow board members were gullible by believing her complaints are valid.

Now you are saying her motives are bad, and so whether or not she has valid points is irrelevant, she can be ignored.

PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568

Posted:

OP has left the building.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I think Tim is correct: "I also do not believe Michael is misinterpreting the words may and or. Per that section, a member may vote in person OR via absentee ballot OR via proxy (members choice). "

Statutes, imo, do not have to say notwithstanding, etc. to permit many actions. Theis most certainly not oa issue of "may" vs. "shall."

The ballots would be opened and counted at the meeting per 64-90-455 Another question is to whom are the absentee/mail-in ballots sent/where are they delivered? If to a candidate, of course that is wrong. Maybe to the PM?

The use of the word "Unit" in the statute makes me wonder if that statutes applies to condos.

Also would like to know the wording in Board communication to Owners about how to submit one's own candidacy, deadlines, etc. If the former board member received ample notice and didn't collect th candidates she SAYS she has, it's on her. As indicated elsewhere, if any of the the lawyer-directors who were on our board argued an HOA case, they'd be shot down fast.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Statute says this: Unit owners may vote at a meeting in person, by absentee ballot pursuant to subsection (3)(d) of this section, or by a proxy pursuant to subsection (5) of this section. Bylaws say unit owners shall vote in person or by proxy. Because of the "may," no conflict exists, so voting is only in person or by proxy.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I don't think that's correct ElleN. In CA, for instance, my HOA's Bylaws and any others written before 2006 stated that secret ballots. may be cast in person or by proxy. State statutes changed and since that time owners "may" (are permitted to; are allowed to; are able to, etc.) vote by secret ballot in person, absentee/mail-in, or via proxy. We restated our Bylaws in 2022 so they now comply with state statutes in CA. But our HOA complied with state statute since 2006.

And since that time no owner has every used a proxy.

NA1 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 190

Posted:

As someone else stated, optics matter. I can't imagine any scenario where you should be running elections or creating new voting systems.

We do not run our own elections. We have the manager collect ballots by mail, photo, drop-off, etc. We do not do electronic voting because the condo docs don't permit it and the state is silent.

LisaW21 (Colorado)
Posts: 17

Posted:

My vote is to not respond to her; but I'm outvoted every time and folks decide that we need to meet with her, respond to her, or take other actions because she might know something.

My main concern with this statement is you are a board member. You are obligated to act on behalf of the members of the association. Directing the board not to respond to a member just because that member has opposing views, I would not advise this. It would be my impression it will only make matters worse. I would advise the Board to select a person other than yourself to respond to her vs the board not responding to her at all. I don't think it wise to give members of the community the impression the board will not respond to members who don't support the board's agenda. Try to remember if a member comes forward with a different approach to how the Board should do things, a good rule of thumb is for the board to supply a balanced comparison for and against reasons for an electronic voting system and for and against reasons for traditional proxies. Seek a neutral party such as professionals in that field to supply factual evidence. This helps maintain informed decision making as a board vs personal biased based decision making.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaW21 on 12/17/2022 11:28 PM
My vote is to not respond to her; but I'm outvoted every time and folks decide that we need to meet with her, respond to her, or take other actions because she might know something.

My main concern with this statement is you are a board member. You are obligated to act on behalf of the members of the association. Directing the board not to respond to a member just because that member has opposing views, I would not advise this. It would be my impression it will only make matters worse. I would advise the Board to select a person other than yourself to respond to her vs the board not responding to her at all. I don't think it wise to give members of the community the impression the board will not respond to members who don't support the board's agenda. Try to remember if a member comes forward with a different approach to how the Board should do things, a good rule of thumb is for the board to supply a balanced comparison for and against reasons for an electronic voting system and for and against reasons for traditional proxies. Seek a neutral party such as professionals in that field to supply factual evidence. This helps maintain informed decision making as a board vs personal biased based decision making.

I'm curious what kind of neutral professional gets involved in Board drama? Our property manager does not, she is clear about that. I have suggested that we hire our legal counsel to investigate the concerns, but none of the other Board members thought that was wise.

As far as the other Board members, I am the most active. My wife guesses I do about 95% of the work on the Board. The remaining Board members do little. The Board member who decided to meet with my arch critic went into the meeting saying he knows nothing about elections and then comes out of it stating what RCWs say and how we are in violation. He clearly rolled over to her, even though he appears to have little interest in his own research.

Yes, the idea of doing a thorough investigation by the remaining Board members sounds nice. The reality is we are all volunteers with no minimum volunteer contributions required to hold a Board position other than meeting attendance.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Careto. respond to any of my few questions above, MichaelT of WA?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/18/2022 3:38 PM
Careto. respond to any of my few questions above, MichaelT of WA?

Can you refresh me on what questions?

LisaW21 (Colorado)
Posts: 17

Posted:

Your property manager is correct in her approach to remain silent on the matter. I can understand your thought process in seeking her expertise. However, she works for your association. A neutral professional would be better suited as someone who has no affiliation to your association.

As a suggestion, your property manager could help your board connect with other management companies that are familiar with the use of electronic voting systems vs traditional proxies.

Try to remember, the board is not seeking professionals as a means to have them involved in Board drama. When speaking with experienced professionals they merely need to know your community may be interested in taking a different approach towards how the community handles the voting process during elections. The Board is simply gathering informed information. I advise the board to refrain from revealing any kind of drama surrounding your association.

Legal counsel is tricky because it requires spending association funds. If your arch critic is providing information that supports the board may be in violation, it is important the board take this seriously. Your community may not be able to move forward on this subject without the help of legal counsel. Do your bylaws confirm the use of electronic voting?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

My above questions, MichaelT:

"Another question is to whom are the absentee/mail-in ballots sent/where are they delivered? If to a candidate, of course that is wrong. Maybe to the PM? "

"Also would like to know the wording in Board communication to Owners about how to submit one's own candidacy, deadlines, etc."

Who reads the electronic ballots? Are they saved for examination by voters (as is required in CA?)