Work Disparity Among Board Members

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

On our 5 member Board, there are only 2 of us who regularly do "day to day" work of running the complex and gather bids from contractors, contact vendors, etc.. One other member participates on an average basis, but the other two just show up to vote. Recently, I volunteered to find a specialty contractor and what seemed like a simple task was a great ordeal. I was difficult to locate contractors in this particular field and online, but once I their contact information and sent them an e-mail with a job description and request for proposal or to come and look at the job, I mainly received "not interested", "can't do the work for several months as I'm overwhelmed with work, or never heard back. Finally, I received two bids, but it took many hours of research and typing e-mails.

I really think the next time our HOA is in need of a contractor, another Board member should do this work, so they can experience first hand the ordeal of finding a contractor in the present economy. I am 99% sure they won't have the patience for it. How do you politely decline such as task, if the Board President requests you do the work, and point out that others should take on a task for a change without getting personal or having it be perceived as "insubordination?"

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Do you have a management company? If so, the tasks you describe are their responsibility.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

You can make your point in a professional manner and if the do nothing board members have an issue with it, that's their problem. In fact, don't wait until the next task - point out that you don't have an issue with working, but you've done the bulk of the work, and everyone needs to do their fair share. You can follow with a partial list of what you've done over the last few months, and tell them where you can use the help. Hopefully, the other board member will join in with what he or she has been doing.

As for the "insubordination, all of you are equals, so if the president gets honked off, that's his/her problem. Stick to what you're doing or have done, no need to get personal. They already know what they've done or not.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with saying no, as long as you're already doing something else. If they want it done, someone else either steps up or it goes undone.

PS - Bill is right, it may be time for you to invest in a property manager. People squawk over the cost, but the work has to be done by someone, so do some comparison shopping.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I agree with Bill and Sheila.

A 5-person board suggests a large enough community to make a property manager reasonable. People often don't like the cost, but when it's time to do the work they're nowhere to be found, so tough. This is no different from owning a home outside of an HOA: you do the work yourself or you pay someone to do it for you.

As for the 2 board members doing all of the work, this is very common. It's also why the capable board members burn out.

I'd tell the entire board exactly that. You're tired, and if others don't take on a share of the work then you're going to resign and leave them with the whole shebang. That's not a threat, it's simply spelling out the likely consequence of their inaction. Then list out the current tasks and divvy them up. Make it harder for them to hide the fact that they're doing nothing.

(Having said that, I was on a 3-person board in a community with a PM, and I did nearly all of the board's work. My schedule was the most flexible and I had actual paid work experience in the areas covered by all three officers, which made it reasonable to give them to me. Short-sighted, though - I was fried after 5 years. On the other hand, we usually have to twist arms to get people to volunteer to be on the board at all. So having people who at least willingly show up to vote is a luxury we sometimes don't have.

Long story short: this is a common problem and if people won't do the work, they won't do it. The consequences aren't bad enough for them personally to give them any incentive to change. It's another reason I think that boards should be replaced by paid professionals - essentially Receivership Lite.)

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

First and foremost, I don't think you should look at your fellow board members in a dim light.
At the very least, they volunteered when others would not.

I did a lot of the research work when I was on my board. The other members of the board brought their own skills which greatly aided the overall mission of the board.

Now to answer your question:

Quote:

Posted By NpB on 05/01/2022 8:28 PM

How do you politely decline such as task, if the Board President requests you do the work, and point out that others should take on a task for a change without getting personal or having it be perceived as "insubordination?"

I don't have the time to do this one, who can take the lead on this?

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

As someone who has a hard time saying, no, I am giving you advice that I know is now always easy to take. Next time they ask you to do something, just decline. Simply say, "I don't have the time and I think it is someone else's turn. You have no control over other board members and they have none over you. That is why they call you volunteers. By the way, insubordination is not an appropriate word here. The president runs the meetings but, otherwise, you are equals.

I understand your complaint and I think it's very common but, for your own well being, sometimes you have to tell yourself, "it is not my job to do everything," no matter how much you believe it won't get done otherwise.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

I do not have time to do this one. Can someone else do it?

Short, and an 'I' statement as opposed to a 'You others have been or are deficient' type of statement.

I also think that, when volunteering to be on a team, having an expectation that other volunteers should do xyz is the path to resentment and corrosive inner turmoil. The Bylaws oblige Director-officers to fulfill specific responsibilities. Beyond the latter, I think one should expect nothing of one's fellow director-officers. Instead, I think one should expect that anything one wants done will likely have to be undertaken by one's self.

The only time I have resented directors (including those who merely vote) is when they either do not show up for Board meetings at all or do not respond to emailed requests for action without a meeting. When a bylaw or statute says they're gone after three missed meetings, I have helped a Board exercise this option.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 05/02/2022 6:or 11 AM
I do not have time to do this one. Can someone else do it?

Short, and an 'I' statement as opposed to a 'You others have been or are deficient' type of statement.

I agree, although I favor the shorter form: “I do not have time to do this.”

Or the Judith Martin variation: “That simply won’t be possible.”

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Oh, one other thing about having a property mgmt company select a contractor: I believe this may provide you with enhanced liability protection.

BillD

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Excellent replies from everone.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpB on 05/01/2022 8:28 PM
On our 5 member Board, there are only 2 of us who regularly do "day to day" work of running the complex and gather bids from contractors, contact vendors, etc.. One other member participates on an average basis, but the other two just show up to vote. Recently, I volunteered to find a specialty contractor and what seemed like a simple task was a great ordeal. I was difficult to locate contractors in this particular field and online, but once I their contact information and sent them an e-mail with a job description and request for proposal or to come and look at the job, I mainly received "not interested", "can't do the work for several months as I'm overwhelmed with work, or never heard back. Finally, I received two bids, but it took many hours of research and typing e-mails.

NpB, this has been the story of my HOA life for 2 years. Most others join the Board because they see the Board as a body of decision makers, and enjoy coming to the meetings to make decisions. However, since we have no paid staff (other than parttime offsite property manager), we have to spend our time executing decisions. Everybody seems to like to make the decisions and few enjoy making the decisions come to life.

Yes, I have struggled with the time it takes to find vendors. Each time we have done a big project, I get close to burned out and am glad when it's done. Then I take a break for a few months and go low-key.

At Board meetings, occasionally there is a project that I don't care if it happens or not, so I ask for volunteers to take it on. Usually I hear crickets, and then the project dies.

While we make decisions as a group and as a Board, I generally feel that we are a Board of one, and I'm the one. My goal is not to worry about distributing work evenly, rather, I worry about making our community look better. My efforts show up in how we've made our community a better place.

If I wasn't here, and if another great board member didn't step up to fill my shoes, our neighborhood would look shabby, and I'm proud to live in a community that looks great.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

For those that suggest a property manager: An offsite property manager is of limited help in finding vendors for unique or specialty tasks. Vendors usually need to see the work on site, prefer to meet with someone in person, and want to know stuff that an offsite property manager does not know.

I have found it is way more useful of my time and theirs, and we get less expensive but high quality vendors by finding our own rather than relying our property manager.

One exception: Handyman services. OUr property manager found a better one. Once we identified them, though, a Board member meets with them on site for each project a handyman is to complete, so they can properly bid the job in a time efficient manner.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

One other comment.

It sounds like you are a bit resentful that the President calls on you to accomplish tasks. He likely does this knowing that you'll get the task done and the others won't.

However, I don't feel that assigning tasks to others is proper as a Board president. I never do this as a Board president. Rather, I call for volunteers and if no one volunteers the particular task dies.

But I never assign work to others. If I am not interested, and no one else is interested, in using their volunteer energy to make something happen, it doesn't get done.

This means I do about 90% of the work for the HOA but that is fine with me.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Out of BOD of 5, 2 of us (Pres and me, VP) do the lion's share of work. That said we have no major projects and we do have am MC so it is relatively easy to run our association. Maybe 3 hours work a week for each of us.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

NpB,
I am sure that every board member that reads this can totally relate. You are either the one that does too much or the ones that do very little.

I am always on the lookout as our board president for members that have skills that fill needs. Sometimes it is just a person who has time. I have 12 years on boards and 40 years in business, so I have seen things from many sides as a buyer of services and as a vendor.

We are blessed to have an onsite PM for 20 hours a week. He has been a blessing for the last 2 years. I have confidence in his ability to get things done. I still like to be available for vendor meets because I still catch things that others may miss. I also try and get another board member to come to meet with vendors when possible. This is easier when it is something they are passionate about.

HOAs are very similar to other groups that need volunteers. Churches come to mind as the same 2% do 90% of the work because they always raise their hands. This is always dangerous since burnout is a real thing.

I agree with all of the other comments that say get pricing for an onsite manager. The owners will learn that you can either give the HOA your time or your money. The system does not work if you don't give one or the other.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

MichaelT21

We are a small property management company which provides full service portfolio management service to our clients--which means we are off site.

At the direction of the Board, we seek out capable, qualified, experienced, and insured contractors/vendors to bid (when appropriate) on association contracts or work items. A portion of our responsibilities is to meet on client properties with contractors and vendors who have been invited to bid.

Some clients wish to have nothing to do with the process until bids and a bid analysis are presented to the Board for review. Sometimes a board requests a walk-around or presentation from the contractor(s).

We frankly prefer to have an initial project review with a vendor or contractor without members of the Board present as many Board members simply do not understand processes or when to remain silent.

So, being an off-site management company does not mean we do not meet with contractors/vendors. We do at the outset of a project, when presentations/meetings take place with the Board (and sometimes the owners) and on a periodic basis as the project works its way to completion.

Your words in your post following the term "off-site" sounds to me like you are describing an association/management company relationship which is known as "financials only"; in those relationships the MC does not become involved with vendors and contractors other than to pay the bills.

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Thank you for your suggestions. We have an property manager, but they are hired on an "accounting only" basis.

Good to know I am not alone in feeling frustrated at bearing the brunt of the work. It's unfortunately impossible to know before they are voted-in, how much equal volunteer work they will perform. It's not like they have a resume with references you can contact.

It's also a delicate social situation too, because if those same Board members who are not volunteering run again, how do you politely inform the membership they are inactive volunteers?

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AugustinD on 05/02/2022 6:11 AM
I do not have time to do this one. Can someone else do it?

Short, and an 'I' statement as opposed to a 'You others have been or are deficient' type of statement.

I also think that, when volunteering to be on a team, having an expectation that other volunteers should do xyz is the path to resentment and corrosive inner turmoil. The Bylaws oblige Director-officers to fulfill specific responsibilities. Beyond the latter, I think one should expect nothing of one's fellow director-officers. Instead, I think one should expect that anything one wants done will likely have to be undertaken by one's self.

The only time I have resented directors (including those who merely vote) is when they either do not show up for Board meetings at all or do not respond to emailed requests for action without a meeting. When a bylaw or statute says they're gone after three missed meetings, I have helped a Board exercise this option.

I agree with your last paragraph. Our Association's Bylaws mention the Board can declare a position vacant if a member misses three consecutive meetings. I have no idea what was in the developer's mind when the developer wrote that, but it sadly places politics and personality at center, because psychologically, few people want to dismiss their fellow Board member, especially if their elected term is already up soon.

AugustinD
Posts: 3,698

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpB on 05/02/2022 8:57 PM
Our Association's Bylaws mention the Board can declare a position vacant if a member misses three consecutive meetings. I have no idea what was in the developer's mind when the developer wrote that, but it sadly places politics and personality at center, because psychologically, few people want to dismiss their fellow Board member, especially if their elected term is already up soon.

If they provided no excuse for missing three consecutive meetings, psychologically I would feel (and have felt) a fiduciary duty in removing the director pursuant to any bylaw that specified this.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

NpB,
I also recommend having a job duties sheet so that potential candidates have an understanding of what they are signing up for in advance. I find it hilarious how little the average owner knows about board members jobs.

I know that a really good job description has been posted on this site years ago. I tailored it to fit my association. It can also be a Code of Ethics document if you can get board members to sign it.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillH10 on 05/02/2022 12:01 PM
MichaelT21

We are a small property management company which provides full service portfolio management service to our clients--which means we are off site.

At the direction of the Board, we seek out capable, qualified, experienced, and insured contractors/vendors to bid (when appropriate) on association contracts or work items. A portion of our responsibilities is to meet on client properties with contractors and vendors who have been invited to bid.

Some clients wish to have nothing to do with the process until bids and a bid analysis are presented to the Board for review. Sometimes a board requests a walk-around or presentation from the contractor(s).

We frankly prefer to have an initial project review with a vendor or contractor without members of the Board present as many Board members simply do not understand processes or when to remain silent.

So, being an off-site management company does not mean we do not meet with contractors/vendors. We do at the outset of a project, when presentations/meetings take place with the Board (and sometimes the owners) and on a periodic basis as the project works its way to completion.

Your words in your post following the term "off-site" sounds to me like you are describing an association/management company relationship which is known as "financials only"; in those relationships the MC does not become involved with vendors and contractors other than to pay the bills.

I was going to say - when I was in portfolio I met vendors onsite all the time and have the wear and tear on my car to show for it.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Barbara

Yup--to say nothing of missed lunches, 0-dark-30 morning meetings in 30 degree weather, finding the local Trader Joe's or whatever for potty breaks, and frustratingly driving north on the Tollway or 75 to get home from the Park Cities or Uptown Dallas at 5:00 PM on a Thursday afternoon.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Do yourself a favor. Set a meeting date once a month for Board business and quit doing what ever you are doing. Management needs to their job and you approve their actions.

LanceG1 (Georgia)
Posts: 97

Posted:

We have a president that wants all of the authority without putting in the work, so I get it. The president is welcome to ask someone if they could help or ask for volunteers, but if they ever started barking orders at me I would nip that in the bud (and have in the past).

Long term, tooting your own horn with the work you are putting in might be a way to get elected as the president.

With management companies be cautious:

They can be great for day to day activities, administrative functions etc, but I'm currently dealing with a board that has ceded too much power to our management company and we are now needing to get that back. Ours is offsite and frankly, other than administrative stuff they manage to screw up most of the other things we try to throw their way. Another issue we are running into are a few experienced board members running to the management company for advice on things that a simple reading of the CCR's would provide the answer to and then funneling questions for our attorney through the manager instead of directly talking to our counsel. The management company has been more than happy to take on the extra responsibilities and we are now in a situation where the tail is wagging the dog and they are not getting proper oversight.

No matter what, the board cannot delegate away all of its responsibilities and board members need to be willing to put in the work.

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpB on 05/01/2022 8:28 PM
On our 5 member Board, there are only 2 of us who regularly do "day to day" work of running the complex and gather bids from contractors, contact vendors, etc.. One other member participates on an average basis, but the other two just show up to vote. Recently, I volunteered to find a specialty contractor and what seemed like a simple task was a great ordeal. I was difficult to locate contractors in this particular field and online, but once I their contact information and sent them an e-mail with a job description and request for proposal or to come and look at the job, I mainly received "not interested", "can't do the work for several months as I'm overwhelmed with work, or never heard back. Finally, I received two bids, but it took many hours of research and typing e-mails.

I really think the next time our HOA is in need of a contractor, another Board member should do this work, so they can experience first hand the ordeal of finding a contractor in the present economy. I am 99% sure they won't have the patience for it. How do you politely decline such as task, if the Board President requests you do the work, and point out that others should take on a task for a change without getting personal or having it be perceived as "insubordination?"

NpB,

I'm late to the party, but I'm compelled to respond because inequality and inequity (different, but related) among volunteers within CICs is a big deal. A bigger deal yet is also part of what you describe where a Board is doing work that compensated individuals should tackle.

I agree with the advice to simply stop doing what you're doing, but at the same time empathize with the urge to keep doing it because you're a homeowner and these things matter not only to you, but to a bunch of people who have no idea how governance and operations come together, nor who is doing the work (and frankly, most people would tell you they don't care who does the work). Volunteer Directors are a group of peers. Hierarchies in a volunteer Board are a myth (unless your governing documents say otherwise and are supported by your statutes in doing so). Everyone *should* share the workload. To share it evenly is probably impossible.

Feel free to check this governance matrix example (https://www.(LINK-NOT-ALLOWED-PER-POSTING-RULES)/governance/governance-matrix) and volunteer involvement survey (https://www.(LINK-NOT-ALLOWED-PER-POSTING-RULES)/surveys/volunteerism).

Volunteer Involvement Survey - QUICK STATS
49% of CICs have an estimated 1% to 5% of their owners volunteer on an annual basis
84% of CICs have at least one and as many as 10+ active committees
46% of CICs do not make effective use of their committees
53% of respondents perceive their personal volunteer time commitment as too much
70% characterize volunteer involvement as not enough
48% say that a majority of volunteer work is performed by 1 or 2 Directors in the absence of material contributions by others

Regards,
Steve

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Steve's quite the expert on HOA matters, isn't he?

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/10/2022 9:52 AM
Steve's quite the expert on HOA matters, isn't he?

Michael, I appreciate that certain members of this forum have created a very comfortable clique and I have suddenly burst onto the scene and disrupted the equilibrium by providing factually correct information in sufficient quantities. This kind of information is embraced by quite a lot of homeowners. Apparently you're not one of them.

By changing a positive discussion to a tit-for-tat personal polemic, you and some of the other commenters here create a toxic environment for learning. Please direct your animus elsewhere.

Regards,
Steve

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/10/2022 9:52 AM
Steve's quite the expert on HOA matters, isn't he?

We know you ain't.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/10/2022 9:52 AM
Steve's quite the expert on HOA matters, isn't he?

We know you ain't.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Having been away for a while, I'm just becoming acquainted with Steve and appreciate his knowledge & willingness to research statute for posters.

I, however, resent the "comfortable clique" note. I do, of course, see Max's nasty-ass replies, but he's no members of any clique. Nor am I. I also happen to be the kind of person who likes equilibrium disruption despite the myth that "human do not like change."

I also am not certain that Michael was being hostile. He seems to be a kind and gentle person if prone to "bossiness," which he admits.

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 05/12/2022 1:18 PM
Having been away for a while, I'm just becoming acquainted with Steve and appreciate his knowledge & willingness to research statute for posters.

I, however, resent the "comfortable clique" note. I do, of course, see Max's nasty-ass replies, but he's no members of any clique. Nor am I. I also happen to be the kind of person who likes equilibrium disruption despite the myth that "human do not like change."

I also am not certain that Michael was being hostile. He seems to be a kind and gentle person if prone to "bossiness," which he admits.

Kerry, I made my comment after receiving several unwelcoming, non-gername, ad hominem messages from a small handful of participants. Pointed, personal jabs seem to fly here where they would instantly get someone banned elsewhere, even Reddit. I find it more enjoyable when threads stay-on topic and avoid getting personal. My guess is that there are some would-be participants who have decided not to join in the discussion simply because they fear a personal diatribe.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 05/12/2022 1:18 PM
I, however, resent the "comfortable clique" note. I do, of course, see Max's nasty-ass replies, but he's no members of any clique.

Please, for gods sake, give it a rest, it is getting really old.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Candidly I think Steve might be walking thin line between an owner and vendor. That said, his contributions here are helpful and informative.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/12/2022 2:10 PM
Candidly I think Steve might be walking thin line between an owner and vendor. That said, his contributions here are helpful and informative.

Well of course he is. Granted it is subtle on the surface but if we are prepared to stop complaining when others post a product or company name here then so be it.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 05/12/2022 2:17 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/12/2022 2:10 PM
Candidly I think Steve might be walking thin line between an owner and vendor. That said, his contributions here are helpful and informative.

Well of course he is. Granted it is subtle on the surface but if we are prepared to stop complaining when others post a product or company name here then so be it.

Everyone refers to their use of Quickbooks or Excel or Word, which are businesses, big business as a matter of fact, yet if we try and mention HOA specific software, such as abc software or xyz software that is a big no-no. Why?

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 05/12/2022 2:47 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 05/12/2022 2:17 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/12/2022 2:10 PM
Candidly I think Steve might be walking thin line between an owner and vendor. That said, his contributions here are helpful and informative.

Well of course he is. Granted it is subtle on the surface but if we are prepared to stop complaining when others post a product or company name here then so be it.

Everyone refers to their use of Quickbooks or Excel or Word, which are businesses, big business as a matter of fact, yet if we try and mention HOA specific software, such as abc software or xyz software that is a big no-no. Why?

I don't disagree with you but this situation is different. The million dollar question is are you OK with a regular poster coming here and 'subtly' pointing people to his or her own site where they just happen to sell papers, consulting services and more? If the owners of this site and the regular posters here are ready to accept all forms of advertisements for goods and services than so be it. I'm not sure I am personally.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

It's not up to us. It's up to the owner of the site.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 05/12/2022 2:54 PM

Posted By MaxB4 on 05/12/2022 2:47 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 05/12/2022 2:17 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/12/2022 2:10 PM
Candidly I think Steve might be walking thin line between an owner and vendor. That said, his contributions here are helpful and informative.

Well of course he is. Granted it is subtle on the surface but if we are prepared to stop complaining when others post a product or company name here then so be it.

Everyone refers to their use of Quickbooks or Excel or Word, which are businesses, big business as a matter of fact, yet if we try and mention HOA specific software, such as abc software or xyz software that is a big no-no. Why?

I don't disagree with you but this situation is different. The million dollar question is are you OK with a regular poster coming here and 'subtly' pointing people to his or her own site where they just happen to sell papers, consulting services and more? If the owners of this site and the regular posters here are ready to accept all forms of advertisements for goods and services than so be it. I'm not sure I am personally.

I have spent the last couple of days viewing their site. I have to say it is the most helpful I have seen in 13 years in this industry. I have used many of his posted tools, such as the reserve calculator and toi my delight, nothing has cost me a cent. I am not forced to purchase anything I don't want.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/12/2022 2:57 PM
It's not up to us. It's up to the owner of the site.

Ultimately you are correct.

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 05/12/2022 2:17 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/12/2022 2:10 PM
Candidly I think Steve might be walking thin line between an owner and vendor. That said, his contributions here are helpful and informative.

Well of course he is. Granted it is subtle on the surface but if we are prepared to stop complaining when others post a product or company name here then so be it.

Clearly we've left oz here, but at the same time we haven't. Guess who performs the majority of the heavy lifting on my board of directors?

The most challenging part of volunteering thousands of hours and setting up a bunch of free information and resources for use by the general public is the personal cost.

If anyone thinks the $310 in revenue (yes, that's a real number) that's been generated by offering the option for someone to download a document or subscribe to a service is an astonishing business that's a grand ticket to retirement, you should think again. If your own time is worth more than $0.50 cents/hr, you should think again. Most people who have not put in the time have no idea what it takes to offer something worth using for free, that's also worth looking at a second time and possibly worth purchasing. There are several sites on the internet that offer tools and resources, but many of them do not provide 24/7 free access and most don't offer anything for free without requiring your personal information so they can market their products and services to you.

CAI has spent the last 50 years building an entire catalog of paid documents and training videos, seminars and paid advertising opportunities. CAI pays lobbyists in most (perhaps all?) 50 United States and in DC and and wields enormous influence over the experience of millions of CIC homeowners who pay over $100 billion in annual assessments. CAI (and its spinoff CAMICB) are the only organizations that credential CIC property managers in the United States. There are so many challenges with CAI, and yet there's no "answer".

Where are the homeowner-centric solutions? They mainly don't exist, because the "industry" is dominated by CAI. Many homeowners and CICs in general don't even know what they don't know: they don't know their state statutes, they don't read their governing documents, they don't network with folks who can help them (like coming to this forum) and they're unwilling to pay for resources (of any kind) that can help them.

CAI has led a race to zero. Many homeowner leaders are "stuck" volunteering endlessly without thanks and without pay. Their peers have been led to believe that CAI and its throng of business partners (paid members with zero quality control checks) are the experts and that volunteers should hire as many of them as possible. Volunteers are told not to "meddle" in management because they don't know what they're doing. All of these ideas are a work of fiction created by an organization that primarily cares about businesses, not CICs. If you don't believe me, you probably weren't at last week's annual expo in Florida.

I make no apologies for offering a myriad of free content (completely unsupported by advertising of any kind) and allowing reasonable people the opportunity to make a decision to purchase resources that have been painstakingly developed over time with an inside perspective on what volunteers in the trenches actually do. Discussion forums like HOATalk are great. You can come and go as you please and take away from the conversation whatever you want. Go spend your money however you'd like. I've never asked anyone here (or on the CAI forum) for a dime. I won't apologize for having an organized website that offers great information.

Regards,
Steve

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveH35 on 05/12/2022 4:36 PM

Posted By JohnT38 on 05/12/2022 2:17 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 05/12/2022 2:10 PM
Candidly I think Steve might be walking thin line between an owner and vendor. That said, his contributions here are helpful and informative.

Well of course he is. Granted it is subtle on the surface but if we are prepared to stop complaining when others post a product or company name here then so be it.

Clearly we've left oz here, but at the same time we haven't. Guess who performs the majority of the heavy lifting on my board of directors?

The most challenging part of volunteering thousands of hours and setting up a bunch of free information and resources for use by the general public is the personal cost.

If anyone thinks the $310 in revenue (yes, that's a real number) that's been generated by offering the option for someone to download a document or subscribe to a service is an astonishing business that's a grand ticket to retirement, you should think again. If your own time is worth more than $0.50 cents/hr, you should think again. Most people who have not put in the time have no idea what it takes to offer something worth using for free, that's also worth looking at a second time and possibly worth purchasing. There are several sites on the internet that offer tools and resources, but many of them do not provide 24/7 free access and most don't offer anything for free without requiring your personal information so they can market their products and services to you.

CAI has spent the last 50 years building an entire catalog of paid documents and training videos, seminars and paid advertising opportunities. CAI pays lobbyists in most (perhaps all?) 50 United States and in DC and and wields enormous influence over the experience of millions of CIC homeowners who pay over $100 billion in annual assessments. CAI (and its spinoff CAMICB) are the only organizations that credential CIC property managers in the United States. There are so many challenges with CAI, and yet there's no "answer".

Where are the homeowner-centric solutions? They mainly don't exist, because the "industry" is dominated by CAI. Many homeowners and CICs in general don't even know what they don't know: they don't know their state statutes, they don't read their governing documents, they don't network with folks who can help them (like coming to this forum) and they're unwilling to pay for resources (of any kind) that can help them.

CAI has led a race to zero. Many homeowner leaders are "stuck" volunteering endlessly without thanks and without pay. Their peers have been led to believe that CAI and its throng of business partners (paid members with zero quality control checks) are the experts and that volunteers should hire as many of them as possible. Volunteers are told not to "meddle" in management because they don't know what they're doing. All of these ideas are a work of fiction created by an organization that primarily cares about businesses, not CICs. If you don't believe me, you probably weren't at last week's annual expo in Florida.

I make no apologies for offering a myriad of free content (completely unsupported by advertising of any kind) and allowing reasonable people the opportunity to make a decision to purchase resources that have been painstakingly developed over time with an inside perspective on what volunteers in the trenches actually do. Discussion forums like HOATalk are great. You can come and go as you please and take away from the conversation whatever you want. Go spend your money however you'd like. I've never asked anyone here (or on the CAI forum) for a dime. I won't apologize for having an organized website that offers great information.

Regards,
Steve

You make some good points. You also gloss over the fact that your free site ultimately leads to https://www.smaartegroup.com/ where consulting prices start at $160 and Management services are offered. This is by design.

Make no mistake, I'm not questioning your knowledge or the quality of your products. What I am questioning is your insinuation that you are not using this site to generate income. With, that said I've said my peace and I wish you well.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

"Peace" to you, too, JohnT ; ); I almost always appreciate your insights and attitude.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

My comment about Steve's replies:

They are long on words but short on detail. For example, what concrete, actionable steps does he recommend an active board member take to get all board members to contribute in an equal fashion? We'd all love to hear that...but it didn't seem to me that he had any specific ideas on how to help the OP.

I've noticed that to be a theme of Steve's replies. Lots of commentary but shy on specific details on how to accomplish the goal.

SteveH35 (Washington)
Posts: 339

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/12/2022 6:17 PM
My comment about Steve's replies:

They are long on words but short on detail. For example, what concrete, actionable steps does he recommend an active board member take to get all board members to contribute in an equal fashion? We'd all love to hear that...but it didn't seem to me that he had any specific ideas on how to help the OP.

I've noticed that to be a theme of Steve's replies. Lots of commentary but shy on specific details on how to accomplish the goal.

Michael,

You misunderstand the purpose of this forum. You expect *answers* to solve your problems, but what you're going to get is *advice.* I'm most certainly *NOT* here to write a book to address every nuance of every question. That's what a website is designed to do over time, across many different pages of data full of images and reference links and thousands of words.

There is no magic bullet to get all volunteers to contribute equally. In fact, it's *probably* impossible. Why? Well, folks who get paid at work don't all contribute equally, either, so what's going to get volunteers to act any differently? There's an 80/20 rule for a reason. The best answer? Education, education, education.

It will take YEARS for the cumulative contributions of every single volunteer at my condominium to total the number of hours I've contributed. But volunteering isn't a competition. Striving for equal contributions is idealistic, not realistic. Take a long look at the volunteer involvement survey (https://www.(LINK-NOT-ALLOWED-PER-POSTING-RULES)/surveys/volunteerism). Look at WHY volunteers serve and why they don't (2nd page of the results dashboard). Those answers are the key to unlocking improved volunteerism.

Regards,
Steve

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/02/2022 10:53 AM
For those that suggest a property manager: An offsite property manager is of limited help in finding vendors for unique or specialty tasks. Vendors usually need to see the work on site, prefer to meet with someone in person, and want to know stuff that an offsite property manager does not know.

I have found it is way more useful of my time and theirs, and we get less expensive but high quality vendors by finding our own rather than relying our property manager.

One exception: Handyman services. OUr property manager found a better one. Once we identified them, though, a Board member meets with them on site for each project a handyman is to complete, so they can properly bid the job in a time efficient manner.

I conducted a Board meeting this evening via Google Meet, oops, I mentioned a product. Started at 6:00 PM sharp and finished at 7:22 PM. Had 12 actionable items to get through, all with multiple proposals. All 12 voted on and emails to the awarded vendors sent before I left the office. I have no issue finding vendors to jobs onsite and board members have no issues. Michael, your issue is your issue and maybe the rest of the board doesn't go along with your micro management which is non-productive.

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 05/12/2022 9:24 PM

Posted By MichaelT21 on 05/02/2022 10:53 AM
For those that suggest a property manager: An offsite property manager is of limited help in finding vendors for unique or specialty tasks. Vendors usually need to see the work on site, prefer to meet with someone in person, and want to know stuff that an offsite property manager does not know.

I have found it is way more useful of my time and theirs, and we get less expensive but high quality vendors by finding our own rather than relying our property manager.

One exception: Handyman services. OUr property manager found a better one. Once we identified them, though, a Board member meets with them on site for each project a handyman is to complete, so they can properly bid the job in a time efficient manner.

I conducted a Board meeting this evening via Google Meet, oops, I mentioned a product. Started at 6:00 PM sharp and finished at 7:22 PM. Had 12 actionable items to get through, all with multiple proposals. All 12 voted on and emails to the awarded vendors sent before I left the office. I have no issue finding vendors to jobs onsite and board members have no issues. Michael, your issue is your issue and maybe the rest of the board doesn't go along with your micro management which is non-productive.

How did you get 12 proposals? Was any onsite work by any Board member needed?

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

A couple of proposals were done onsite with myself present. Contrary to your beliefs, not all work to be done requires onsite visits or supervisions. There is one board members that has some involvement in the community, other than that, sadly, I have to run it. I also don't waste my time with 40 page PowerPoint (oops, there's that name dropping) presentations. We prepare a Board packet and email it to them about 4 days prior to a meeting.

There are about 400,000 HOA's in the U.S., maybe half or more self managed. Based on the number of HOA's, there are approximately 1.5 to 2 million board members. There are maybe 10 regular contributors here, not really a good cross section to really know what's going on out there. I own three companies, one association management company that will offer full service, one for just financial only and a tax preparation company. Our primary focus now is the new company handling financial only, primarily for self managed HOA's and building the number of doors we handle. So far, so good.