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JohnP47 (Washington)
Posts: 31
Posted:
I'm in need your wisdom.

I live in Washington State and just became Board President (for the 3rd or 4th time. It's a tiny condo). Looking over our bylaws to draft an amendment to modernize what means we can use to notify owners (it actually says telegraph is allowed), I noticed this interesting clause on quorum.

"2.2.2 Quorum. Except as otherwise provided in these Bylaws, the presence in person or by proxy of a majority of owners as above defined shall constitute a quorum. An affirmative vote of a majority of the owners present, either in person or by proxy, shall be required to transact business; provided, however, that no business shall be transacted unless a minimum of thirty percent (30%) of all of the owners, either in person or by proxy, vote affirmatively, and no director shall be removed unless a majority of all of the owners vote affirmatively for removal."

Right off, I see this needs amending because it confuses 3 things: quorum, passing motions, and removing a director. So, I tinkered with it. I removed the part about removing directors because it's covered elsewhere. For the rest:

"2.2.2 Quorum. The presence in person or by proxy of a majority of owners (as defined in 2.2.1) makes a quorum.

"INSERT NEW: 2.2.3 Motions. An affirmative vote of a majority of the owners present, either in person or by proxy, shall be required to pass motions unless a higher majority is required by these bylaws, other governing documents, or by law."

-------------

Here's my question: what purpose is served by this clause: "no business shall be transacted unless a minimum of thirty percent (30%) of all of the owners, either in person or by proxy, vote affirmatively."

Imagine just 51% of the owners attend live or by proxy the annual meeting. That makes the quorum. Then we vote on a contested motion, and again, 51% of those attending vote Yes. But this is only 26% of all the owners. What happens to the motion? Does it fail? Are the absent owners to be polled to break the impasse? Why should the 49%, who got the same notice as everyone else and for whatever reason couldn't make this important enough to attend or provide a valid proxy, get this type of implicit power to block action through their indifference? Presumably, by not attending/giving a proxy they have voluntarily shucked off having much of a say.

I'm ready to be enlightened.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
You seem to understand what it says.

My suggestions:

1) verify that what you are wanting to do doesn't conflict with language in the covenants (although, in codos, the covenants and bylaws are often combined.

2) Do things properly to rewrite (membership vote if needed).

3) I would change a quorum to 10% for a meeting (which is easier to achieve and allows elections to take place if the membership becomes apathetic) and a 2/3 approval of all owners to amend the document.

4) Remember to check applicable State statutes (don't forget corporate statutes if incorporated) to make sure the proposed amendment doesn't conflict.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
In Washington State, a new law allows for absentee voting of homeowners. You can mail out paper ballots to your condo members and if they return the ballot (photograph using cell phone, in person, mail, etc) they count as quorum for meeting purposes. It's a lot easier to ask people to vote than to fill out a proxy.

This law applies to all HOAs and COAs.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Is this condo subject to the Washington Condo Act?

What year was the condo established?

Quote:
Posted By JohnP47 on 04/07/2022 8:55 PM

Imagine just 51% of the owners attend live or by proxy the annual meeting. That makes the quorum. Then we vote on a contested motion, and again, 51% of those attending vote Yes. But this is only 26% of all the owners. What happens to the motion? Does it fail?
By my reading the "provided however" clause translates to the motion above failing.
Quote:
Posted By JohnP47 on 04/07/2022 8:55 PM
Are the absent owners to be polled to break the impasse?
The Bylaws have no such provision, so no, no poll should be done. Or at least: A poll of absent owners cannot be used to effect transaction of business.

If whoever wants the motion to pass wants to have another meeting and so have another vote, the Bylaws certainly permit this. Also the owners can consider using absentee ballots, to the extent the bylaws and state law permit absentee ballots.

As to why such-and-such percentage has so much control, the bottom line is this is because the bylaws/covenants say as much. All owners agreed to abide by the bylaws/covenants when they bought.

I suspect that the original bylaw was hastily written. Perhaps what the authors meant was this:

[Augie Proposed Revision]
2.2.2 Quorum. Except as otherwise provided in these Bylaws, the presence in person or by proxy of a majority of owners as above defined shall constitute a quorum. No business shall be transacted unless a minimum of thirty percent (30%) of all of the owners, present either in person or by proxy, vote affirmatively, except that no director shall be removed unless a majority of all of the owners vote affirmatively for removal."
JohnP47 (Washington)
Posts: 31
Posted:
Thanks for the interesting replies. I deliberately didn't put all the layers of legal docs and context to shorten my original post. But, to answer, yes, We opened in 1982; to amend our bylaws requires 75% owner approval; the Declarations state simply that running the condo are devolved to what is in the bylaws; these bylaws were written & approved by who knows who and lack any sourcing information about who first drafted them; that we operate under RCW 64.32 Horizontal Property Regime Act of 1963 and RCW 64.90 Washington Uniform Condominium Act of 2018. Today at Noon I'm sitting in on a zoom call about updates to the state's condo laws enacted in 2021.

About proxies and ballots: When our Board knows what may come up we include that in the proxy form with a pair of options. An owner can designate a proxy with limited powers (to only vote as they mark the ballot portion), or unlimited powers (to vote as they think the proxy-giving owner would on other matters which may arise not on the ballot). We have a challenging time stepping up to serve on the Board, so the annual materials are nearly always mailed without a full list of people willing to serve. We work it out at the meeting. This way, with an unlimited proxy, missing owners have a way to voice their approval of their peers who step forward to serve their interests in the common areas. Wish it wasn't like that, but I must play as they cards fall.

Back to my current focus, which is drafting an understandable set of updated clauses for a possible presentation to the Board and then with their approval, to the whole association. The original goal was to update & rewrite our bylaws to allow electronic notices & meetings for our annual & board meetings at the option of the Board. All these rules were suspended during COVID by executive order, but now are restored unless our bylaws continue to allow it.

Most of the laws set a starting place and add wording like, "unless there's a different requirement in the governing documents." Given my study of our Governing Documents, there's only one place where this 30% idea is mentioned, and it's in this clause on quorums.

It only adds confusion and thwarts the Association. In the next set of edits I will take it out so that any action passed with a proper quorum, really passes with no further check needed about whether this circuit breaker was tripped. I'll also delete the comment about removing directors because it doesn't relate to whether a quorum is present and is addressed in the Officers section.

Question: Have I overlooked something about why this 30% idea is needed or valuable for the owners taking an active part, rather than the indifferent ones who could not be bothered?
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 501
Posted:
As I said, we no longer worry about quorum, proxies, and voting at annual meetings. We mail out ballots to all homeowners and collect the ballots and count the votes. Then the annual meeting becomes an informational meeting only.

Makes things way simpler.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnP47 on 04/08/2022 10:57 AM
Question: Have I overlooked something about why this 30% idea is needed or valuable for the owners taking an active part, rather than the indifferent ones who could not be bothered?
I doubt you missed anything, other than perhaps overlooking why super majority requirements occasionally exist.

I would just call the 30% requirement a super majority requirement. If one understands the purpose of a super majority requirement, one can find support for the aforementioned 'minimum 30% of all owners' requirement (the 30% minimum requirement denoting a requirement that ensures a mere 25+% of owners are not making huge decisions at owners' meetings).

I get that you may think the 30% requirement is dumb and has no logical basis. Many think all quorums, for HOAs and COAs, lack a logical basis. (Maybe these folks are right, especially in these days of attending meetings by Zoom.) And so on.

On absentee ballot voting, I trust you are aware of this from 64.32:
https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.32.280
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/08/2022 11:08 AM
As I said, we no longer worry about quorum, proxies, and voting at annual meetings. We mail out ballots to all homeowners and collect the ballots and count the votes. Then the annual meeting becomes an informational meeting only.

Makes things way simpler.

So I take it you are in the camp that Adam/Augustion describes as "do what makes you feel good".
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelT21 on 04/08/2022 11:08 AM
As I said, we no longer worry about quorum, proxies, and voting at annual meetings. We mail out ballots to all homeowners and collect the ballots and count the votes. Then the annual meeting becomes an informational meeting only.

Makes things way simpler.

I am assuming you still need a given % for a Covenant or Bylaw change? What do your Covenants/Bylaws say about required %?
JohnP47 (Washington)
Posts: 31
Posted:
This thread is about changing the bylaws to bring them up to date. I do not presume that because they are almost written on parchment that the humans who wrote them or more likely, merely copied them, had any greater genius than you and I. And a quorum makes full sense to me as basic way for groups to operate. to restate. For my degree I studied non-profit governance through the work of boards so I've made a deep dive into quorums, majorities, and super-majorities, why groups have them, and when they the most sense. For example, amending bylaws, by explicit rule in the bylaws, takes 75% of the owners. So, when this comes forward to their vote, if we reach that stage, this is serve as Notice of the change in rules and if they don't want it, vote "no."

The quorum under discussion is for the Annual Meeting as set by the Board within the established dates established by law (at minimum of 14 days notice). Proxies count for setting the quorum. We want 51% of the owners in person or by proxy in attendance to set the quorum.

I'm listening to the Secretary of State's update as I type. Their consulting attorney talks about quorum on slide 8. It's set by law, unless our docs say different, @ 25% for condos. And thus he said (not legal advisedly) that only about 15% of the owners can set policy. Not a word about this trip wire 30% super-minority.

I'm satisfied that we're well above the legally allowed minimum for the basic quorum.

About passion motions, is not what a quorum addresses, additional super-majority requirements we're well aware of but are not relevant to why I opened this thread.

Thanks everyone, I've had my questions addressed. I have no need to continue.
AugustinD
Posts: 3,698
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnP47 on 04/08/2022 12:30 PM

About passion motions, is not what a quorum addresses, additional super-majority requirements we're well aware of but are not relevant to why I opened this thread.
For the archives:

The first post here quoted a section of the bylaws titled "Quorum." This bylaws section also speaks about what is required to transact business. In my experience, the mere fact that the section is titled "quorum" does not render the sentences about transacting business as irrelevant or not legally enforceable. By my reading, a court would enforce these other sentences as written.

Nationwide, it seems to me that the titles of CC&R sections and Bylaws sections often do not quite match the contents of the section. In my experience, this does not mean that the material beneath the title is somehow invalid.

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