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Subject: Can the membership 'vote' to ban a future conversation?
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BobS38
(Oregon)

Posts:35


09/28/2021 8:59 PM  
Question about this, in general.

At recent annual meeting, there was a big feather ruffling about some new young homeowners wanting to investigate options to put a pool in the community. Most of the homeowners are old, retired, and strongly not interested in this plan. At the meeting, someone motioned that the HOA forever ban any future consideration or talk of a pool and everyone loudly proclaimed victory.

This just feels a bit 'wrong'...whether you are for or against a topic....I don't feel like there can be a show of hands motion to ban all further conversation about something.

Thoughts?
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4280


09/29/2021 4:15 AM  
It's a stupid idea. If you take a look to see how many people are interested in getting pool and the majority say yes or no, that's the direction you move. You still have to do some re and it may be after running the numbers the pool doesn't make financial sense for the community.

Besides, communities change - as time goes on, those who are opposed may change their minds or move out - whether it's in a U-haul, ambulance or hearse is another matter.

JohnT38
(South Carolina)

Posts:790


09/29/2021 4:31 AM  
This is so silly I would ignore it. Until humans come with a mute button there is no way to prevent someone from talking about anything.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2569


09/29/2021 4:56 AM  
I agree it's silly.

The best way to quash unworkable ideas from homeowners is to put them in charge of investigating what it would take to make their idea happen. There is a *lot* involved with a pool: appropriate location (involving size, area drainage, parking, maybe changing facilities, and proximity to homes), cost (insurance, maintenance, water usage, and the capital improvement itself), and legal (security and the necessary steps to approval capital improvements and possibly amend the CC&Rs). People generally talk themselves out of their bad ideas when they see how much they will cost them personally - and if there currently is no pool, it's probably likely that there is no workable location for one unless you have something like unused tennis courts that the community is willing to get rid of.

I have to say, though, as a card carrying member of the Olde Folkes Group, a pool is one of my deal-breaker items (I don't want it and refuse to pay for it). Fair Housing laws ignore the fact that older people tend to use the pool in different ways than kids do. The oldsters often like swimming laps or water aerobics for exercise, neither of which they can do safely when there are a bunch of kids playing and not watching what they're doing. So in practice families get to use the pool and the Olde Folkes get to pay for it. No thanks...

(When I was a kid, it was common to have adult swim for 15 minutes out of every hour. At a quarter of, the lifeguards would blow their whistles, the kids would get out, the adults would get in and swim their laps, and at the top of the hour everyone would swap places. Everybody got to use the pool safely in ways that they enjoyed. Of course this is now illegal.)
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 6:53 AM  
First, any motion to do xyz would have had to been on the agenda provided to owners pursuant to your Bylaws notice requirements. If it was not, then the vote on xyz has no validity, and discussion of xyz should not even happen. Anyone disputing this needs to consider why City Council meetings adhere rigidly to the agenda provided to the public.

Second, in the future any owner wanting abc on the annual meeting agenda should request this well in advance of the notice requirements. The Board should oblige this request and put it on the agenda.

Third, as everyone else here observes, a ban on discussion of a topic that is any way related to the HOA/COA is unlawful for the reasons I state above.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1687


09/29/2021 6:55 AM  
Agree with the others and add that any action passed by a motion approved by the members could be rescinded the same way at a future meeting.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
BobS38
(Oregon)

Posts:35


09/29/2021 7:34 AM  
so should a request to amend or fix the minutes be made?

Correct, it was not an agenda item in the mailed out notice.
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 8:08 AM  
Posted By BobS38 on 09/29/2021 7:34 AM
so should a request to amend or fix the minutes be made?
Yes. Maybe state:

Discussion of whether to consider installing a swimming pool occurred. However, this was not on the agenda, so no action (meaning neither motion nor vote) could be taken.
BobS38
(Oregon)

Posts:35


09/29/2021 8:17 AM  
and what to do if the minutes were basically a line-by-line replay of the conversation, except highly skewed towards the old timers and making it seem like the young families wanted a revolution? Entire parts of the 'debate' were omitted that would have put the board leadership and old timers in a negative light.

how to request to amend so that it just records the minutes of actions and topics, not a verbatim discussion?
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 8:21 AM  
Posted By BobS38 on 09/29/2021 8:17 AM
and what to do if the minutes were basically a line-by-line replay of the conversation, except highly skewed towards the old timers and making it seem like the young families wanted a revolution? Entire parts of the 'debate' were omitted that would have put the board leadership and old timers in a negative light.

how to request to amend so that it just records the minutes of actions and topics, not a verbatim discussion?
You request that the Minutes be ameneded to record only actions and topics, not a verbatim discussion.

If the Secretary says no and the Board agrees with the Secretary, then your only remaining recourse (to stop such slovenliness and incivility in Minutes in the future) is to run for the board with a like-minded group of people and win a majority of the board seats.
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 8:23 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/29/2021 8:21 AM
You request that the Minutes be amended to record only actions and topics, not a verbatim discussion.
... pursuant to Robert's Rules, on the subject of Minutes.

If your HOA's Bylaws state meetings are subject to Robert's Rules, then even better.
BobS38
(Oregon)

Posts:35


09/29/2021 8:29 AM  
any idea which robert's rules section/paragraph/etc? I can get it from the library and get a photo copy of the rule to reference.

Yes, our CCR's say that we follow roberts rules.
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 8:33 AM  
Posted By BobS38 on 09/29/2021 8:29 AM
any idea which robert's rules section/paragraph/etc?
http://www.rulesonline.com/rror-10.htm#60
KellyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:1803


09/29/2021 9:23 AM  
Passing such a motion is silly in practice but it's clear that pool discussions are not desired and will not be entertained by the current Board of Directors. The BOD is not obligated to address any pool conversations and it's legitimate that any citizen or board member could be ruled "out of order."

The active members of your HOA do not want a pool. They even cheered its demise. As others suggest, time will change but Bob will need more influence within the neighborhood and that's hard-earned over time.


Good luck
KellyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:1803


09/29/2021 9:27 AM  
I should say that if the Board of Directors voted against exploring a pool facility as business matter, that is not silly. It closes the debate until the convening of next year's "new" board of directors session.

Boards can prevent proposals that are continually offered and continually defeated by majority vote.
JohnT38
(South Carolina)

Posts:790


09/29/2021 10:11 AM  
Posted By KellyM3 on 09/29/2021 9:27 AM
I should say that if the Board of Directors voted against exploring a pool facility as business matter, that is not silly. It closes the debate until the convening of next year's "new" board of directors session.

Boards can prevent proposals that are continually offered and continually defeated by majority vote.




"At the meeting, someone motioned that the HOA forever ban any future consideration or talk of a pool and everyone loudly proclaimed victory."

Notice the words "forever ban" and "or talk of a pool". Assuming this is what they actually said, it doesn't get any sillier.
BobS38
(Oregon)

Posts:35


09/29/2021 1:51 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/29/2021 8:08 AM
Posted By BobS38 on 09/29/2021 7:34 AM
so should a request to amend or fix the minutes be made?
Yes. Maybe state:

Discussion of whether to consider installing a swimming pool occurred. However, this was not on the agenda, so no action (meaning neither motion nor vote) could be taken.




So is it allowed for the Board to add in the extra comment of "this was not an agenda item" if it wasn't stated during the meeting?
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 2:06 PM  
Posted By BobS38 on 09/29/2021 1:51 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 09/29/2021 8:08 AM
Posted By BobS38 on 09/29/2021 7:34 AM
so should a request to amend or fix the minutes be made?
Yes. Maybe state:

Discussion of whether to consider installing a swimming pool occurred. However, this was not on the agenda, so no action (meaning neither motion nor vote) could be taken.




So is it allowed for the Board to add in the extra comment of "this was not an agenda item" if it wasn't stated during the meeting?
I think the appropriate thing to do is add:

Secretary's note: This was not an agenda item.<.i>

To me the point is to be transparent. Folks need to understand why a vote is either not recorded or, if recorded, to be clear that it counts for nothing, since the topic was not on the agenda.

A lot of owners will have no understanding of why proper notice is required. Just tell them notice is required by law and the covenants/bylaws.

Whether to have a pool or not is not up to the board. Instead, it would first require an amendment to the covenants, which of course requires a vote of the owners, with all the legal i's dotted and legal t's crossed.
MaxB4


Posts:1580


09/29/2021 2:11 PM  
Why would adding a pool require an amendment to the declaration?
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 2:17 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 2:11 PM
Why would adding a pool require an amendment to the declaration?
The point is well-covered on the net.
MaxB4


Posts:1580


09/29/2021 2:20 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/29/2021 2:17 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 2:11 PM
Why would adding a pool require an amendment to the declaration?
The point is well-covered on the net.



I have a number of associations that have pools, and not one of them has a pool in their declaration. If it is well covered, then where?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11638


09/29/2021 2:23 PM  
The whole motion is as someone said, silly. I would mention in the minutes that a Motion was made from the floor that there could be no more discussions on adding a pool with vocal majority in favor though the motion has no legal standing.

Adding a Poll would be a Capital Improvement item and as such would typically require a vote to do so thus some control there. That aside, how would it be funded if not enough money in Capital Expenditure? If not enough in CE, it would probably require a Special Assessment to get enough and then again another vote.
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 2:28 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 2:20 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 09/29/2021 2:17 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 2:11 PM
Why would adding a pool require an amendment to the declaration?
The point is well-covered on the net.



I have a number of associations that have pools, and not one of them has a pool in their declaration. If it is well covered, then where?
-- Pay me and I would be happy to give you links.

-- If someone else makes this request, then I will assist them here.
MaxB4


Posts:1580


09/29/2021 2:31 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/29/2021 2:28 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 2:20 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 09/29/2021 2:17 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 2:11 PM
Why would adding a pool require an amendment to the declaration?
The point is well-covered on the net.



I have a number of associations that have pools, and not one of them has a pool in their declaration. If it is well covered, then where?
-- Pay me and I would be happy to give you links.

-- If someone else makes this request, then I will assist them here.



So....you have nothing
BobS38
(Oregon)

Posts:35


09/29/2021 2:31 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/29/2021 2:23 PM
The whole motion is as someone said, silly. I would mention in the minutes that a Motion was made from the floor that there could be no more discussions on adding a pool with vocal majority in favor though the motion has no legal standing.

Adding a Poll would be a Capital Improvement item and as such would typically require a vote to do so thus some control there. That aside, how would it be funded if not enough money in Capital Expenditure? If not enough in CE, it would probably require a Special Assessment to get enough and then again another vote.




agreed. the steps towards any CapImprovement requires a lot of technicalities and votes. Not sure if it would need to be in the CCR's, but there is the initial investigation study, the presentation to the membership, the special meeting to vote on special assessments, etc.

but a mob vote to say "we vote to never have a pool" and "if you want a pool, move somewhere else" is a bit sophomoric.

AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 2:43 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 2:31 PM

So....you have nothing
First, I am not going to accommodate your laziness. Second, past experience with you is that when I post authoritative discussion on the internet, you fight it. It wastes time.

You're free to have the absurd belief that a HOA Board, without an owner's vote, can add a swimming pool where there was none before.

Those readers sincerely interested in this point are welcome to ask for links to discussions. I will accommodate them.
MaxB4


Posts:1580


09/29/2021 2:48 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/29/2021 2:43 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 2:31 PM

So....you have nothing
First, I am not going to accommodate your laziness. Second, past experience with you is that when I post authoritative discussion on the internet, you fight it. It wastes time.

You're free to have the absurd belief that a HOA Board, without an owner's vote, can add a swimming pool where there was none before.

Those readers sincerely interested in this point are welcome to ask for links to discussions. I will accommodate them.



That is NOT what you said! You said the declaration must be amended, which is BS. I have done capital improvements in the past. When required, a secret ballot has been conducted. If a loan is required, that too, if required, is also done by secret ballot.

Augie's analysis is NOT an authoritative discussion.
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 2:56 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 2:48 PM

That is NOT what you said! You said the declaration must be amended, which is BS. I have done capital improvements in the past. When required, a secret ballot has been conducted. If a loan is required, that too, if required, is also done by secret ballot.
I am fine with amending my comment to:

Adding a swimming pool will require either an owners' vote; an amendment to the Declaration; or both.
MaxB4


Posts:1580


09/29/2021 2:59 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/29/2021 2:56 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 2:48 PM

That is NOT what you said! You said the declaration must be amended, which is BS. I have done capital improvements in the past. When required, a secret ballot has been conducted. If a loan is required, that too, if required, is also done by secret ballot.
I am fine with amending my comment to:

Adding a swimming pool will require either an owners' vote; an amendment to the Declaration; or both.



So, apparently you have zero experience in this area.
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 3:08 PM  
-- Whatever experience I have, in sum, far exceeds yours.

-- Quit hijacking the thread. It irritates people here.
MaxB4


Posts:1580


09/29/2021 3:11 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 09/29/2021 3:08 PM
-- Whatever experience I have, in sum, far exceeds yours.

-- Quit hijacking the thread. It irritates people here.



Making stuff up is what you characterize as experience?
AugustinD


Posts:1856


09/29/2021 3:15 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 09/29/2021 3:11 PM
Making stuff up is what you characterize as experience?
Your certainty that an amendment to the Declaration is never needed to add a swimming pool underwhelms.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8705


09/29/2021 5:52 PM  
Since not on the agenda, the "vote" by owners doesn't matter. I think Augie's solution is good. EVEN IF if it were a valid members' vote, they do not have the authority to tell the Board that the topic can never be on a board agenda.

Are you on the board, Bob? I'm curious to know why such a goofy activity concerns you to the extent it does.
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