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Subject: DECLARATION TRUMPS RULES (? ? ?)
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CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2475


10/09/2021 5:42 AM  
Posted By MichaelH34 on 10/07/2021 3:47 PM
Posted By RollandE1 on 10/07/2021 2:55 PM
post a picture or link of the drivway might help?




How might that help?

1. If the CCRs can be read to mean that the homeowner is responsible for anything on their lot that isn't specifically stated to be HOA responsibility and the driveway isn't specifically listed, that would mean it's a homeowner responsibility.

2. If the homeowner wants to fight this, they'll have to find someone with more authority than the HOA that can state that the driveway is a common or some other HOA-responsible area and be able to back that up with legal references.

3. If they aren't willing to do that, they're left with fighting the HOA some other method which seems likely to just line the pockets of at least two legal firms.

Of course, even if they go the route of #2, they may still find they have to go with #3 if the HOA decides to fight the conclusions in #2.

No matter what, it's likely to be messy.



Yeah, this could well be another example of homeowners spending way more to fight the HOA over something than they would have spent to just deal with the whatever-it-is. But as you said, many law firms profit from this sort of thing.
LisaB32
(Tennessee)

Posts:31


10/18/2021 3:46 PM  
Thanks, Cathy, John, Michael. (And didn't even see "RollandE1's" post, except when you guys clipped it!!!! But thanks anyway, Rolland!!)

You guys are in my head, for sure, when I read your "Caution . . . . Danger Ahead!!" It is much appreciated.

Bye for now, (until my next lame question!!!) ;-D
LisaB32
(Tennessee)

Posts:31


10/18/2021 3:46 PM  
Thanks, Cathy, John, Michael. (And didn't even see "RollandE1's" post, except when you guys clipped it!!!! But thanks anyway, Rolland!!)

You guys are in my head, for sure, when I read your "Caution . . . . Danger Ahead!!" It is much appreciated.

Bye for now, (until my next lame question!!!) ;-D
LisaB32
(Tennessee)

Posts:31


10/18/2021 3:53 PM  
Oh, I see Roland now . . . my email stacks all the messages into one message and I just didn't click down far enough . . . but still don't see it on this forum (?)

(Oh, well. No need to reply, guys. It's okay. It just looks like he had an edit button, and we don't.)

(Sorry about double entry there . . . don't know how that happened either!! Maybe "hoatalk" can "edit" one of them out??) (Dying here, not being able to insert EMOTS!!!) (Like 'Eyes Upward'!!!!) haa
LisaB32
(Tennessee)

Posts:31


10/22/2021 7:06 PM  
(NEW QUESTION)

Neither Board nor PM company will give me the name of the Association's atty. I think we have a right to this information. (Board NEVER answers us back. . . it's always the lame PM . . . and lucky to get THAT-----sparsely.)

THANKS, GUYS!!! (I really tried hard to see if this had been a past topic on the forum before posting!)

Howev, in my research, I did stumble on this heartbreaking article from the past, which assures all that absolutely NOTHING will ever change in these United States, as far as the current 'toxicus HOA-suck-e-dum'------because NOTHING ever DOES!!!

https://www.attorneyfredoneal.com/blog/2016/9/22/hoatalkcom-discussion
LisaB32
(Tennessee)

Posts:31


10/22/2021 7:23 PM  
(Absolutely LOVED this part, however!!!! Would feel like died/gone to Shangri-La, if this were to ever materialize . . . .Can you IMAGINE??? We, sadly, cannot even do that, right now. The lawyers have it all sewn up.):

"There were a lot of creative suggestions on how to solve that problem -
increased mediation,
>>>>>> a lega l defense fund to fund the DEFENSE of homeowners BEING RAILROADED BY A BOARD,<<<<<<
specialized courts knowledgeable in HOA law, etc."

https://www.attorneyfredoneal.com/blog/2016/9/22/hoatalkcom-discussion
LisaB32
(Tennessee)

Posts:31


10/22/2021 7:24 PM  
Posted By LisaB32 on 10/22/2021 7:23 PM


"There were a lot of creative suggestions on how to solve that problem -
increased mediation,
>>>>>> a LEGAL defense fund to fund the DEFENSE of homeowners BEING RAILROADED BY A BOARD,<<<<<<
specialized courts knowledgeable in HOA law, etc."



LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:535


10/22/2021 8:20 PM  
lisa , i have a question.


If your driveway is in fact in disrepair, is there some reason you don't want to fix it. I agree. the board seems to be subjectively deciding on whose driveway requires fixing and whose doesn't.
If your driveway is nowhere near the level of disrepair that the other driveways you mention are, you may have a stronger argument regarding selective enforcement.

But back to the main question.. it is your driveway right? If your driveway is in disrepair. Why not fix it. If i had filthy windows and i got a letter from my board telling me i need to clean them. I may be miffed that they don't send the same letters to their friends that are owners, but at the end of the day, clean windows are a good thing.
It seems clear to me that your driveway is a exclusive use limited common area and your documents state that items in that category are your responsibility unless expressly assigned to the association in the documents.
LisaB32
(Tennessee)

Posts:31


10/22/2021 9:44 PM  
Laska,

I'll number your lines, instead of screw w/"Quote In a Box" tonight (WARNING TO SHEILA: STOP reading NOW!! Lol)

________________________________
1.) "If your driveway is in fact in disrepair, is there some reason you don't want to fix it."

(It's the principle. There is a backstory I cannot get into here, online. It's not about the driveway. It's payback for some things we did.)
________________________________
2.) "I agree. the board seems to be subjectively deciding on whose driveway requires fixing and whose doesn't.
If your driveway is nowhere near the level of disrepair that the other driveways you mention are, you may have a stronger argument regarding selective enforcement."

Yes. And, like I wrote to Sheila on 9/15, (but STILL keep ignoring this 10/22-21 post, SHEILA!!!) ;-D:

" . . . I can prove, via pictures, that approximately 15-20 driveways have 'issues' here. These driveways are going belly up. Yet WE are being singled out, period. We are being mandated to 'fix.' No one else is showing any activity of being made to either resurface or replace. Therefore, IF there is a rule about the driveways, and IF driveways have to live up to some mythical "community standard," as the letters state---and OTHERS are not made to make THEIRS 'pretty'---then this is one-sided, biased treatment AGAINST us."
________________________________
3.) But back to the main question.. it is your driveway right? If your driveway is in disrepair. Why not fix it."

(See, above, my answers to your points 1 & 2.)
________________________________
4.) If i had filthy windows and i got a letter from my board telling me i need to clean them. I may be miffed that they don't send the same letters to their friends that are owners, but at the end of the day, clean windows are a good thing.

(Yes, well, that's good in theory, but, again, see all above . . . . "principle." AGAIN: It's NOT about the driveway . . . . it's about a few bored, evil, UNBALANCED, first-stage-dementia-ridden nutjob bat-s*** crazy Board members doing this----and it ain't right!!!)
________________________________
5.) "It seems clear to me that your driveway is a exclusive use limited common area and your documents state that items in that category are your responsibility unless expressly assigned to the association in the documents."

(No, I disagree. Respectfully, I don't where you're getting that. You don't know what our documents say, as I've never posted the entire CCR here, for anyone to view. But, suffice it to say, "driveway" is NEVER mentioned anywhere. Plus the ASSociation "Rules, Regulations & Restrictions" plainly tell us that anything beyond our garage (i.e. "DRIVEWAY") is the "Common Area" to be maintained and repaired by the aforementioned.)

And, interestingly, there's this, in Tenn. state law:

"§66-27-407. Upkeep of condominium.
(a) Except to the extent provided by the declaration, subsection (b), or § 66-27-413(h), (<<
AND THIS:
"§66-27-309. Plats and plans.
(b) Each plat must show:
(10) Limited common elements, consisting of porches, balconies and patios.
(Not "for example" or "such as" or "like" HERE!!!) It's "BOOM . . . this, this and this.")

(Gee, I wonder why "driveways" isn't in there . . . could it be . . . . [da, da, duunnn] . . . ;-D that "driveways" are NOT considered LCE's in TENNESSEE??)

(Therefore, we got 'em by the BALLoonS !!!) (haaaa)

Hey, thanks for caring, though, and taking the time to post. We really appreciate it!

(I am sooooo gonna get kicked off the forum tonight, for this post!!! And maybe forever. . . '-( )

(But, then again, Sheila could rest!! JKJKJKJKJKJKJK, Sheila!! SMILE, for Pete's sake!) ;-D :-D
MaxB4


Posts:1395


10/22/2021 9:50 PM  
Laska

Think you're in way over your head!
LisaB32
(Tennessee)

Posts:31


10/22/2021 10:13 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 10/22/2021 9:50 PM
Laska

Think you're in way over your head!



____________________________
(Max, if I didn't know better, I'd think Laska was on my HOA BOARD!!! Lol) (DON'T read, LASKA!!) jkjkjkjkjk
____________________________

But, seriously, Laska . . . I have to apologize a bit here.

What you referred to as my documents was probably this, in my first post: (I corrected the typo that was in the original, and I'm also editing in CAPS, as it didn't make sense, when I reread it):

"(c) The responsibilities of the Unit Owner with respect to maintenance of its Unit shall be:
To clean, maintain, repair, and replace at its expense all portions of its Unit and any Limited Common Element(s) allocated to its Unit (except those to be cleaned, maintained, repaired and replaced by the Association) including, but not limited to, all built-in features, carpets, patio(s) or deck(s), wall furnishings, all appliances, pipes, plumbing, fixtures, wires and conduits serving only its Unit;"

That's IT!! But our state law says that THE DECLARATION MUST LIST . . Limited Common Elements have to be "specific" what these are, if that's what I'm reading.
"66-27-308
Allocation of limited common elements.

(a) (1) Except for the limited common elements described in § 66-27-302(2) and (4), the declaration
shall specify either:

(A) To which unit or units each limited common element is allocated; or

(B) Which common elements or limited common elements may be allocated or licensed
by conveyance from the declarant."
_______________

(Therefore, sorry for that. It's just that the way you worded it, it was like you'd read our whole CCR!!)
LaskaS
(Texas)

Posts:535


10/23/2021 12:18 AM  
apology accepted,,no problem.

You are absolutely right though, I don't know the whole backstory.

If the letter about requiring you to fix your driveway is payback and petty just to just to frick with you, I know exactly how infuriating that can be.

I of course haven't ready your documents. I was just referring to what i thought was the clause you had cited. You explained though.
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