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Subject: Meeting Notice
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JillS8
(California)

Posts:101


07/11/2021 4:18 PM  
Our Association only post meeting notices 3 or 4 days in advance. We have notified them that our Bylaws say there should be at least 10 days. Can or should a meeting still continue without proper notice?
Does anyone else experience this and how was it resolved?
AugustinD


Posts:1937


07/11/2021 4:46 PM  
A meeting without proper notice is an invalid meeting, with all votes by the Board also being invalid.

The meeting should not be called to order.

A member could request to be recognized at the beginning, stating something like: "Point of order. The Bylaws require 10 days notice for a Board meeting. Only four days notice were given. Because of improper notice, I understand all decisions made today by the board will be invalid under the law. I ask the Board to adjourn this meeting."

If the Board continues the meeting, file a complaint and ask for IDR.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/11/2021 4:50 PM  
Board meetings noticed 4 days or 96 hours before the meeting.

Non Emergency Executive sessions between meetings two day notice.

Annual Meeting, no less than 10 days prior to meeting.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/11/2021 4:53 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/11/2021 4:46 PM
A meeting without proper notice is an invalid meeting, with all votes by the Board also being invalid.

The meeting should not be called to order.

A member could request to be recognized at the beginning, stating something like: "Point of order. The Bylaws require 10 days notice for a Board meeting. Only four days notice were given. Because of improper notice, I understand all decisions made today by the board will be invalid under the law. I ask the Board to adjourn this meeting."

If the Board continues the meeting, file a complaint and ask for IDR.



State statues apply, not Bylaws.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8734


07/11/2021 4:54 PM  
Yes, Four days' notice and the agenda must be posted for HOA board meetings in CA. When you write "the Association ...." who is this? The manager? The Board secretary?

Have you sent your correction to "the association" in writing and citing the exact wording of your Bylaw and requesting adherence to it? Will you please cite the exact wording of that Bylaw for me? Ten days' notice is kind of unusual.





AugustinD


Posts:1937


07/11/2021 4:54 PM  
Posted By JillS8 on 07/11/2021 4:18 PM
Our Association only post meeting notices 3 or 4 days in advance. We have notified them that our Bylaws say there should be at least 10 days. Can or should a meeting still continue without proper notice?
Does anyone else experience this and how was it resolved?
I agree with you that notice is not proper. This is because of Civil Code 4920:

Civil Code §4920. Notice of Board Meetings.

(a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), the association shall give notice of the time and place of a board meeting at least four days before the meeting.

(b)

(1) If a board meeting is an emergency meeting held pursuant to Section 4923, the association is not required to give notice of the time and place of the meeting.

(2) If a nonemergency board meeting is held solely in executive session, the association shall give notice of the time and place of the meeting at least two days prior to the meeting.

(3) If the association’s governing documents require a longer period of notice than is required by this section, the association shall comply with the period stated in its governing documents. For the purposes of this paragraph, a governing document provision does not apply to a notice of an emergency meeting or a meeting held solely in executive session unless it specifically states that it applies to those types of meetings.
(c) Notice of a board meeting shall be given by general delivery pursuant to Section 4045.

(d) Notice of a board meeting shall contain the agenda for the meeting.

-- https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-4920
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/11/2021 5:03 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/11/2021 4:54 PM
Yes, Four days' notice and the agenda must be posted for HOA board meetings in CA. When you write "the Association ...." who is this? The manager? The Board secretary?

Have you sent your correction to "the association" in writing and citing the exact wording of your Bylaw and requesting adherence to it? Will you please cite the exact wording of that Bylaw for me? Ten days' notice is kind of unusual.








A minimum 10 day notice is required for annual meetings.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/11/2021 5:07 PM  
Posted By JillS8 on 07/11/2021 4:18 PM
Our Association only post meeting notices 3 or 4 days in advance. We have notified them that our Bylaws say there should be at least 10 days. Can or should a meeting still continue without proper notice?
Does anyone else experience this and how was it resolved?



Where are your notices posted? This information is also required to be sent with the Annual Disclosures and Policy Statements.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8734


07/11/2021 5:37 PM  
The reason I asked Jill for the exact Bylaws citation, Max, is to see if the 10 days might refer to a meeting of the members (AKA the Association, i.e., owners).

MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/11/2021 6:23 PM  
I deal with a number of HOA's with old governing documents, some as as old as 40 years. While the number of days for posting an agenda has remained constant of 4 days for Open Board meetings, the number of days for a annual meeting has changed because secret ballots must be mailed 30 days prior to the meeting, therefore 10 days not longer applies, unless of course, no election is being held.

I send notice of Annual meetings out almost 120 days for the meeting itself to comply with new election rules. This technically is in violation of Corporation Code §7511a, which is 10 and 90 days.
JillS8
(California)

Posts:101


07/11/2021 8:34 PM  
Our bylaws state the following

Notice of meetings. Written notice of meetings, annual or special, shall be given by the board to each Member entitled to vote, either personally or by sending a copy of the notice by first class mail, postage prepaid, to his address appearing on the books of the Association, or supplied by him to the Association for the purpose of notice or by any other means permitted by law. All such notices shall be sent to each member entitled thereto not less than ten (10) days nor more than ninety (90) days before each meeting, and shall specify the place, the day and hour of the meeting , and those matters which the board, at the time of giving notice, intends to present for action by members.

So if we have a meeting for a Thursday scheduled we should let members know before Mondays mail. I am a board member and trying to improve communication with owners but requesting the management company to give more notice is falling on deaf ears. Thank you
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/11/2021 8:46 PM  
Posted By JillS8 on 07/11/2021 8:34 PM
Our bylaws state the following

Notice of meetings. Written notice of meetings, annual or special, shall be given by the board to each Member entitled to vote, either personally or by sending a copy of the notice by first class mail, postage prepaid, to his address appearing on the books of the Association, or supplied by him to the Association for the purpose of notice or by any other means permitted by law. All such notices shall be sent to each member entitled thereto not less than ten (10) days nor more than ninety (90) days before each meeting, and shall specify the place, the day and hour of the meeting , and those matters which the board, at the time of giving notice, intends to present for action by members.

So if we have a meeting for a Thursday scheduled we should let members know before Mondays mail. I am a board member and trying to improve communication with owners but requesting the management company to give more notice is falling on deaf ears. Thank you



Do you know what type of meeting is being held, Board or Member (Annual)?
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/11/2021 8:47 PM  
Posted By JillS8 on 07/11/2021 8:34 PM
Our bylaws state the following

Notice of meetings. Written notice of meetings, annual or special, shall be given by the board to each Member entitled to vote, either personally or by sending a copy of the notice by first class mail, postage prepaid, to his address appearing on the books of the Association, or supplied by him to the Association for the purpose of notice or by any other means permitted by law. All such notices shall be sent to each member entitled thereto not less than ten (10) days nor more than ninety (90) days before each meeting, and shall specify the place, the day and hour of the meeting , and those matters which the board, at the time of giving notice, intends to present for action by members.

So if we have a meeting for a Thursday scheduled we should let members know before Mondays mail. I am a board member and trying to improve communication with owners but requesting the management company to give more notice is falling on deaf ears. Thank you



What you are posting is the language specifically for a Member meeting, NOT a Board meeting.
AugustinD


Posts:1937


07/12/2021 6:50 AM  
Posted By JillS8 on 07/11/2021 8:34 PM
Our bylaws state the following

Notice of meetings. Written notice of meetings, annual or special, shall be given by the board to each Member entitled to vote, either personally or by sending a copy of the notice by first class mail, postage prepaid, to his address appearing on the books of the Association, or supplied by him to the Association for the purpose of notice or by any other means permitted by law. All such notices shall be sent to each member entitled thereto not less than ten (10) days nor more than ninety (90) days before each meeting, and shall specify the place, the day and hour of the meeting , and those matters which the board, at the time of giving notice, intends to present for action by members.
Yup, this is for a meeting of the owners (a.k.a. members of the association), not the Board.

Please quote what, if anything, the Bylaws say about what notice is required for Board meetings. So far this thread offers no evidence the Board is violating the notice requirements for board meetings. If the board is, then during the open forum section of the board meeting, a member could state, "Point of order... " as I describe above and see if the Board will consider this Point of Order.
JillS8
(California)

Posts:101


07/12/2021 7:29 AM  
So I must be confused. Postings are only required for Annual meetings not regular quarterly board meetings. Thank you for the clarification
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/12/2021 8:33 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/12/2021 6:50 AM
Posted By JillS8 on 07/11/2021 8:34 PM
Our bylaws state the following

Notice of meetings. Written notice of meetings, annual or special, shall be given by the board to each Member entitled to vote, either personally or by sending a copy of the notice by first class mail, postage prepaid, to his address appearing on the books of the Association, or supplied by him to the Association for the purpose of notice or by any other means permitted by law. All such notices shall be sent to each member entitled thereto not less than ten (10) days nor more than ninety (90) days before each meeting, and shall specify the place, the day and hour of the meeting , and those matters which the board, at the time of giving notice, intends to present for action by members.
Yup, this is for a meeting of the owners (a.k.a. members of the association), not the Board.

Please quote what, if anything, the Bylaws say about what notice is required for Board meetings. So far this thread offers no evidence the Board is violating the notice requirements for board meetings. If the board is, then during the open forum section of the board meeting, a member could state, "Point of order... " as I describe above and see if the Board will consider this Point of Order.



"Point of Order" for what? Board meetings, unlike Annual Meetings, are not required under Civil Code §5000(a), to be conducted using any form of parliamentary procedure.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/12/2021 8:39 AM  
Posted By JillS8 on 07/12/2021 7:29 AM
So I must be confused. Postings are only required for Annual meetings not regular quarterly board meetings. Thank you for the clarification




This is something Board members have a responsibility to know. My suggestion is look to get Board training in one of two forms, one through your management company, or two, through a local chapter of CAI (Community Association Institute). If your management company doesn't offer this service, my suggestion is to find one that does.

Blow are links to educational series through two chapters in the Southern California area.

https://www.cai-glac.org/details.php?id=1666

https://www.trailblz.info/communityai/eventcomplete.aspx?eventid=235
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8734


07/12/2021 9:41 AM  
Thanks for the quotation. As suspected, you cited the posting requirement for a meeting of the members. This usually is your annual meeting and election. Meetings of members are NOT board meetings.

Review your Bylaws again for requirements for BOARD meetings. Board meetings and Members meetings usually are in two different places in Bylaws. If your Bylaws are silent, refer to: "Civil Code §4920. Notice of Board Meetings. (a) ... the association shall give notice of the time and place of a board meeting at least four days before the meeting." (Thanks, Augustin) This is the notice requirement. An agenda must be included. Visit the website Augie cited!

If your BOARD meeting is, say, Th. 5pm, the notice & agenda must be posted by 5pm Sunday. They are NOT required to be mailed. They may be posted in your common area somewhere. Our PM sends an eblast 4 days (96 hours) notice in advance. If your PM is the only person who posts such notices and does not work on Sunday, s/he MUST post the notice sooner, say Friday before leaving for the weekend. Later is NOT all right.

So if your PM has been posting board meeting notices legally, that's the reason your insistence on four days has been ignore. Often PMs do not like to criticize or correct board members so yours may have just not complied. If the PM refuses to post 4-days notice, place on your next meeting's agenda a directive to the PM from the Board demanding that the Civil Code be followed re: this topic and have your fellow board members vote on it. This does show owners that your board does want to be open with them.

It is true that as a board ember it's on you to learn more about CA HOAs and your own governing documents. It's also very good that you/your Board wants better communication with your members,








AugustinD


Posts:1937


07/12/2021 10:03 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 07/12/2021 8:33 AM
"Point of Order" for what?
To inform the Board that improper notice translates to a meeting whose votes are not legally enforceable. It's an "FYI." Don't be such a jerk.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8734


07/12/2021 10:47 AM  
Sentence in my last post to Jill should read: "So if your PM has been posting board meeting notices legally, that's the reason your insistence on TEN days has been ignored."

To follow Augustin: Since Jill IS a board (assembly) member, at a meeting of the Board, without the item being on the agenda, I think she could interrupt at the beginning and call "Point of Order! this meeting is not valid because Owners were not given 4-days notice."

But this is if Jill and the Board really want to postpone it and its business to another day, etc. I think it'd be friendlier all around if Jill or another director offered to timely post the notice and agenda for the PM if feasible.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/12/2021 11:07 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/12/2021 10:03 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 07/12/2021 8:33 AM
"Point of Order" for what?
To inform the Board that improper notice translates to a meeting whose votes are not legally enforceable. It's an "FYI." Don't be such a jerk.



You are not an attorney, nor are you on a board, nor are you or ever been a community manager, you just fish stuff up through google. When Jill stated the 10 day notice, I knew she was referring to an member meeting and not a board meeting. In California, every year, associations are required to state where notices are posted. I have all on a web portal first, and common area as a backup. Those notices posted in the common area are done by someone on the Board.

I also believe your delving into the Florida condo disaster is highly distasteful. You are no better than the ambulance chasing attorney looking to cash in on a quick payday. There're still pulling bodies out of the rubble and family members haven't even buried their dead. Nothing will change because of this because the only way to possibly avoid this in the future is federal guideline with teeth and take it away from the states.
AugustinD


Posts:1937


07/12/2021 11:13 AM  
How does this change the fact that you behave like a jerk much of the time? Are you drinking and posting?
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/12/2021 11:18 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/12/2021 11:13 AM
How does this change the fact that you behave like a jerk much of the time? Are you drinking and posting?



Keep it coming!
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8734


07/12/2021 12:05 PM  
Max & Augustin. Please stop this incessant bickering! It never serves the posters who seek guidance from this forum.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/12/2021 12:14 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/12/2021 12:05 PM
Max & Augustin. Please stop this incessant bickering! It never serves the posters who seek guidance from this forum.



Leave me out of it!
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11667


07/12/2021 12:23 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/12/2021 12:05 PM
Max & Augustin. Please stop this incessant bickering! It never serves the posters who seek guidance from this forum.



I agree.
AugustinD


Posts:1937


07/12/2021 12:40 PM  
KerryL1 and JohnC46, neither of you remain silent when MaxB4 directs derisions in your direction. Your words underwhelm.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8734


07/12/2021 2:03 PM  
I do agree, Augustine that you seem to be Max's favorite target these days. I also know, from past experience with his attacks against me, that in general, Max "starts it." Maybe we can just (and solely) cite a good valid source. Period?
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/12/2021 2:32 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/12/2021 2:03 PM
I do agree, Augustine that you seem to be Max's favorite target these days. I also know, from past experience with his attacks against me, that in general, Max "starts it." Maybe we can just (and solely) cite a good valid source. Period?



I will call out his BS. Others have stated that I claim to know it all. Far from it, BUT, you'll notice I don't comment on everything single thread that comes up and then claim based "on my experience" here is what is supposed to be done. Exactly what experience are we talking about? Doesn't sit, maybe never have, on a board, not an attorney, doesn't practice law, that might be debatable, and never served as a manager. I will only comment on issues that I have direct knowledge of, and generally only those that are from California.

The person I feel sorry for is poor ole Tim, as Augie is taking all his air time.

What was Augie's first post in this thread? A meeting without proper notice is an invalid meeting, with all votes by the Board also being invalid. Based on what? His "Law of Contracts? He states that Board meetings require 10 days noticed, based on the Bylaws. Why didn't he know this or better yet, why didn't he look it up.

I don't know the laws in other states, but then I don't practice or do business there. I do know the laws as they pertain to HOA's in California backwards and forwards. I have two legal certifications for every year since 2009. I sat on the Educational Committee of a local CAI chapter for 5 years. Based on research, they had the most extensive Board training in the country and still do.

BarbaraT1
(Texas)

Posts:591


07/12/2021 2:36 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 07/12/2021 2:32 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/12/2021 2:03 PM
I do agree, Augustine that you seem to be Max's favorite target these days. I also know, from past experience with his attacks against me, that in general, Max "starts it." Maybe we can just (and solely) cite a good valid source. Period?



I will call out his BS. Others have stated that I claim to know it all. Far from it, BUT, you'll notice I don't comment on everything single thread that comes up and then claim based "on my experience" here is what is supposed to be done. Exactly what experience are we talking about? Doesn't sit, maybe never have, on a board, not an attorney, doesn't practice law, that might be debatable, and never served as a manager. I will only comment on issues that I have direct knowledge of, and generally only those that are from California.

The person I feel sorry for is poor ole Tim, as Augie is taking all his air time.

What was Augie's first post in this thread? A meeting without proper notice is an invalid meeting, with all votes by the Board also being invalid. Based on what? His "Law of Contracts? He states that Board meetings require 10 days noticed, based on the Bylaws. Why didn't he know this or better yet, why didn't he look it up.

I don't know the laws in other states, but then I don't practice or do business there. I do know the laws as they pertain to HOA's in California backwards and forwards. I have two legal certifications for every year since 2009. I sat on the Educational Committee of a local CAI chapter for 5 years. Based on research, they had the most extensive Board training in the country and still do.





STANDING OVATION.
AugustinD


Posts:1937


07/12/2021 3:34 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/12/2021 2:03 PM
Maybe we can just (and solely) cite a good valid source. Period?
Are you addressing this to me? Are you saying you want me to cite "good valid sources"?

I promise to try real hard in the future to do so.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8734


07/12/2021 3:42 PM  
Oh,Augstine, I just meant solely cite the source w/o further comments no matter how poor Max's writing is, or how rude and disrespectful he is to some of us.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/12/2021 3:59 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/12/2021 3:42 PM
Oh,Augstine, I just meant solely cite the source w/o further comments no matter how poor Max's writing is, or how rude and disrespectful he is to some of us.



Seriously, have you seen some of the rude and disrespectful names people have been called by Sir Augustine? Would you like me to name a few?
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


07/12/2021 4:04 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/12/2021 3:42 PM
Oh,Augstine, I just meant solely cite the source w/o further comments no matter how poor Max's writing is, or how rude and disrespectful he is to some of us.



How poor my writing is, really?

Here is a link for a spell check for Chrome: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/spell-checker-for-chrome/jfpdnkkdgghlpdgldicfgnnnkhdfhocg?hl=en
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11667


07/13/2021 7:10 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/12/2021 12:40 PM
KerryL1 and JohnC46, neither of you remain silent when MaxB4 directs derisions in your direction. Your words underwhelm.



I rarely respond to derisions from anybody. Waste of my time.
JohnT38
(South Carolina)

Posts:794


07/13/2021 7:56 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 07/13/2021 7:10 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 07/12/2021 12:40 PM
KerryL1 and JohnC46, neither of you remain silent when MaxB4 directs derisions in your direction. Your words underwhelm.



I rarely respond to derisions from anybody. Waste of my time.





Amen. The only reason that I can think that two people would continue to piss on each other over and over and over again is because the must enjoy it. To each their own I suppose.
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