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Subject: Exercise classes in clubhouse/pool
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Author Messages
DavidG45
(Delaware)

Posts:144


06/27/2021 4:23 PM  
We are a new HOA still with a brand new pool and clubhouse. The property manager just borrowed and published our rules from another community, but we now have a Facilities Committee that is re-visiting them. One of the rules is that you cannot use the clubhouse for commercial purposes, which we basically assumed meant you can't have Amway meetings, real estate seminars, etc.

Now we have some folks who want to have Pilates classes and water aerobics, and are looking to charge maybe $5 a person. We're kind of split on whether this should be considered an acceptable use of the facilities. I'm curious what conventional wisdom says in the HOA world.

If not, it makes me wonder about a whole host of other things we have been doing. For example, occassionally we pay for music in the patio area behind the clubhouse - such as a guitar player. He's being paid, so is that not acceptable? The Social Committee has a lady coming in for a "wine and painting" night, and she gets paid for it. Acceptable?

I initially thought this was simple, but now it seems pretty complicated.

TIA
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10590


06/27/2021 4:50 PM  
Your interpreting "Commercial" use wrong. It does not mean one can't rent it to have at home business meetings. They just can't work out of it as if it's their address. Meaning your HOA can't use the clubhouse as means of running a commercial business like plumbing or advertised business.

Not sure why there would be an issue if someone wants to rent it if they are eligible to do so. Just don't make it their business location but meeting place. Otherwise what else do you do with a clubhouse if you don't use it for meetings?

Former HOA President
DavidG45
(Delaware)

Posts:144


06/27/2021 5:00 PM  
Exact wording:

10. The Clubhouse and other amenities cannot be used for money raising purposes by an individual or organization other than the association.

11. No political, religious, commercial, or outside organization is permitted use of the Clubhouse and other amenities, even if a homeowner/tenant is a member of the organization.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4290


06/27/2021 5:01 PM  
People still sell Amway? Anyway...

I understand your property manager cutting and pasting rules to start, but as you note, the ones used came from another community, so you should be able to add, drop or modify as you wish. For starters, READ your documents to see what it says about enacting rules. Generally, the board is given authority to enact rules to flesh out the bylaws and CCRS, but those rules can't supersede the documents. To wit, the documents may say the clubhouse is an amenity that exists for use by residents, but the board can enact rules governing that use, such as events can't start earlier than X time and must end by Y time, with an extra hour for cleaning, deposits, clubhouse use fees, etc.

Now, there are communities where there are classes like Pilates and the fee is used to cover the clubhouse rental fee and the cost of an instructor. Sometimes people hold Bible study classes where the resident pays the fee and don't collect any money from the attendees. Your committee may want to ask other associations how they handle these things (including perhaps the community the property manager got the rules from). Then, they can poll homeowners to see how they'd like to use the clubhouse - you don't need to mention commercial use yet, but you want to see what sorts of things people may want to do, such as use the room for a bridal shower, which wouldn'T be commercial at all

The occasionally Tupperware (or Amway?) party shouldn't be an issue, but it wouldn't hurt for your committee to ask the board to check with the association master insurance about steps to take to protect the association's liability. Between that and homeowner responses, you should be able to come up with reasonable rules. You can always revisit them at a later date to see what's working and what needs to be changed.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/27/2021 5:15 PM  
Posted By DavidG45 on 06/27/2021 5:00 PM
11. No political, religious, commercial, or outside organization is permitted use of the Clubhouse and other amenities, even if a homeowner/tenant is a member of the organization.
Hmm. I need more information on whether we have -- wait for it -- a possible Fair Housing violation. See below.

Posted By DavidG45 on 06/27/2021 4:23 PM

Now we have some folks who want to have Pilates classes and water aerobics, and are looking to charge maybe $5 a person. We're kind of split on whether this should be considered an acceptable use of the facilities.
The problem I have with this is that it means other folks cannot use the space while the Pilates class is going on.

Is rental of the clubhouse allowed?

Is the clubhouse normally open 24/7?

What hours is the clubhouse open?

Are HOA members allowed to invite guests to use the clubhouse?

If I were a member of the HOA, could throw a birthday party with my friends, who just happen to all be card-carrying socialists?



AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/27/2021 5:16 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/27/2021 5:15 PM

If I were a member of the HOA, could throw a birthday party with my friends, who just happen to all be card-carrying socialists?
Re-post. DavidG45, if I were a member of your HOA, could throw a birthday party in the clubhouse with my friends, who just happen to all be card-carrying socialists?
DavidG45
(Delaware)

Posts:144


06/28/2021 9:54 AM  
I feel as if this thread got off track. I'm not particularly interested into a conversation about allowing religious or political groups rent our clubhouse. My question doesn't even relate to renting the clubhouse. My question, to give a specific example, is this:

Would it seem okay to allow one resident to perform a water aerobic exercise class at one end of the pool, during normal pool hours, for a small group of other residents if they are paying her, say, $5 per session? Let's assume we limit it to early morning hours when few people are there, and there are few enough people they don't prevent others from enjoying the pool. My sole focus of this question is if there is an issue becaue it involves an exchange of money. We have divergent opinions here and I'm not sure which side is right.

If anyone considers that to be a bad idea, would it be more palatable if the Social Committee organized the event as, say, a Wate Aerobics Club. With membership dues paid to the Social Committee and used to hire the instructor?



JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11665


06/28/2021 9:57 AM  
David

You said:

If anyone considers that to be a bad idea, would it be more palatable if the Social Committee organized the event as, say, a Wate Aerobics Club. With membership dues paid to the Social Committee and used to hire the instructor?

This would be my way of handling it.

KellyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:1806


06/28/2021 10:58 AM  
Agreed.

If the HOA committee "sponsors" the activity, then I'd see it as a legitimate event being held with all residents invited to participate.

I wouldn't, in this case, see the primary activity as "money raising" to benefit a pilates instructor as much as a coordinated community effort to mutually fund a pilates service and instructors aren't free.

Regarding water aerobics....I would never recommend allowing the private booking of the community pool where non-exercisers are banned from the pool during the class.
BarbaraT1
(Texas)

Posts:589


06/28/2021 11:04 AM  
Posted By DavidG45 on 06/28/2021 9:54 AM
I feel as if this thread got off track. I'm not particularly interested into a conversation about allowing religious or political groups rent our clubhouse. My question doesn't even relate to renting the clubhouse. My question, to give a specific example, is this:

Would it seem okay to allow one resident to perform a water aerobic exercise class at one end of the pool, during normal pool hours, for a small group of other residents if they are paying her, say, $5 per session? Let's assume we limit it to early morning hours when few people are there, and there are few enough people they don't prevent others from enjoying the pool. My sole focus of this question is if there is an issue becaue it involves an exchange of money. We have divergent opinions here and I'm not sure which side is right.

If anyone considers that to be a bad idea, would it be more palatable if the Social Committee organized the event as, say, a Wate Aerobics Club. With membership dues paid to the Social Committee and used to hire the instructor?








Have the social committee organize the event and pay dues to the committee, that are then used to hire the instructor.

It would not be okay to have the instructor use your facility as the location for her business. You could have the instructor pay the association rent for the use of the facility and provide liability insurance listing the association as additional insured.... but why should the HOA take on overhead and liability for someone else's business? And even if it starts out as residents only now, it will change. Someone will bring a friend or the instructor will want to make more money (which to her is pure profit since she's not paying any overhead!) and invite a few extra people... and then you've got extra traffic that people will complain about....

We had a similar issue with a fitness instructor wanting to use the park. We let them hold one free class, and next thing we knew half the town was invited into the neighborhood three days a week to destroy our landscaping and trip over sprinkler heads.

MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/28/2021 1:10 PM  
It is not uncommon for a Condo to rent out a lounge or room in their clubhouse or building for which room has been set aside for such purpose. They normally would post guideline and a rental form on their website. This might include fee, deposit and any insurance requirement. Only people allowed to attend this type of event should be resident only. It's up to the association to create the proper rules and fees for the specific event.

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8729


06/28/2021 3:01 PM  
Our 20 y.o condo tower has never let any group reserve part/all of the pool or the pool area or BBQ area as they are used all day every day by residents who have the right to have access.

We do have a couple of Lounges that Owners can reserve for a party, or, say Pilates, or our Book Club. For non-HOA-sancioned activities, the resident is charged a refundable deposit and a use fee depending on the numbers expected to attend. They certainly can invite non-residents to their wedding shower, birthday party or whatever. This is typical of the many high rises in our 'hood. Yes, there are forms to fill or out and insurance required.

If residential candidates for the board or any other person or group wants to use it for HOA information or campaign purposes, now, in CA, they may use the room(s) at no charge
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/28/2021 3:24 PM  
Posted By DavidG45 on 06/28/2021 9:54 AM
My sole focus of this question is if there is an issue becaue it involves an exchange of money.
And this is your sole focus because of these Board-created rules (not covenants):
Posted By DavidG45 on 06/27/2021 5:00 PM
Exact wording:

10. The Clubhouse and other amenities cannot be used for money raising purposes by an individual or organization other than the association.

11. No political, religious, commercial, or outside organization is permitted use of the Clubhouse and other amenities, even if a homeowner/tenant is a member of the organization.
To you, the board-created rules raise the question of whether an exchange of money involves commercial use, and so the activity you mentioned (of paying someone for an exercise class) might not be allowed under the rules.

Meanwhile, you do not seem to care about (the legally far more powerful) covenants that say the pool, clubhouse and other amenities belong to all owners. Regarding the pool, KerryL1 nailed it:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/28/2021 3:01 PM
Our 20 y.o condo tower has never let any group reserve part/all of the pool or the pool area or BBQ area as they are used all day every day by residents who have the right to have access.
I would find a class going on while I sat reading or relaxing by the pool, for which my monthly dues pay, annoying. I would be even more annoyed that someone is using the pool, for which my monthly dues pay, to make money.

DavidG45, I understand your focus; how you want folks here to ignore covenants; and how you want to build a harmonious HOA, as the important, Bull HOA Member on a Board about to Transition (and with many members who will never do all the work you are doing). You deserve your membership's thanks. But respectfully, and for the well-being of the membership I believe this forum must prioritize not your focus, but the importance of abiding by the covenants.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2599


06/29/2021 9:00 AM  
The biggie that you're overlooking: liability and whether or not your HOA insurance will cover you in the event someone is hurt at one of these events where money changes hands.

Our association's attorney has seen occasions where the insurer looked at something and says "nope, that's commercial use and you're not insured for that." In our attorney's words: it was not pretty.

So talk to your insurance agent and see what that person has to say about this stuff.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2599


06/29/2021 9:04 AM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/29/2021 9:00 AM
The biggie that you're overlooking: liability and whether or not your HOA insurance will cover you in the event someone is hurt at one of these events where money changes hands.

Our association's attorney has seen occasions where the insurer looked at something and says "nope, that's commercial use and you're not insured for that." In our attorney's words: it was not pretty.

So talk to your insurance agent and see what that person has to say about this stuff.



And it goes without saying - which I forgot to say - all participants in activities that can result in injuries should be signing Hold Harmless/Waivers of Liability agreements. You no sign, you no participate - no exceptions.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/29/2021 9:14 AM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/29/2021 9:04 AM
<
And it goes without saying - which I forgot to say - all participants in activities that can result in injuries should be signing Hold Harmless/Waivers of Liability agreements. You no sign, you no participate - no exceptions.
... which while prudent in general, further adds to the HOA's workload, all while supporting someone who is charging others while using a pool or clubhouse for which members paid.

Let's also consider that, if someone is injured, the question the injured person's attorney will ask is: Why was the HOA allowing the use of common area which the covenants do not permit?

I get the feeling DavidG45 is enjoying a honeymoon of sorts, acting as though he will work hard to get the members what they want (even if what they want is over-the-top). think the most important lesson in "HOA Board Service 101" training is realizing that it is not a director's job to make everyone happy. Indeed, if everyone is happy, then lots of covenants are being violated; threats of litigation will occur; and pretty soon, far less than everyone will be happy.

One has to serve on a board with a largely robotic-like response to queries: "Show me what in the covenants, bylaws or rules and regulations support your position. Because my job is to uphold the covenants, bylaws, and rules and regulations, and also a few state statutes and certainly at least one federal statute."
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 9:24 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/29/2021 9:14 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/29/2021 9:04 AM
<
And it goes without saying - which I forgot to say - all participants in activities that can result in injuries should be signing Hold Harmless/Waivers of Liability agreements. You no sign, you no participate - no exceptions.
Because my job is to uphold the covenants, bylaws, and rules and regulations, and also a few state statutes and certainly at least one federal statute."



And who died and made you queen?

David,

I would disregard what this person said. I have had a number of HOA's that have pools that allow residents to host a party at the community pool. The legal counsel for my association wrote the guidelines and reservation form for such events which all included having the homeowner provide a liability waiver from their insurance company naming the HOA as "additional insured". And while I am not a big fan of HOA lawyers or lawyers in general, I have a fiduciary responsibility to take their advice over, well on this site.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/29/2021 9:36 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 9:24 AM
exercise class, where money is charged.
DavidG45
(Delaware)

Posts:144


06/29/2021 9:42 AM  
So your opinion regarding the other activities I mentioned in the first post is that they should not be allowed, as well? That is, the lady coming in to do a Painting class with everyone paying $25 would not be allowed. Or hiring a guitar player to play music in the patio area. Food trucks in the clubhouse parking lot?

So long as money is exchanged it would be considered a commercial use and therefor not allowed.



BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:1108


06/29/2021 9:43 AM  
Posted By DavidG45 on 06/27/2021 5:00 PM
Exact wording:

10. The Clubhouse and other amenities cannot be used for money raising purposes by an individual or organization other than the association.

11. No political, religious, commercial, or outside organization is permitted use of the Clubhouse and other amenities, even if a homeowner/tenant is a member of the organization.



I think the rules are fairly clear and the keyword is "purpose." If the person renting the clubhouse is doing it for the benefit of other owners and only recouping expenses, that is hardly "money raising purposes" even if a third party profits.

For example, if an owner sponsors a yoga class and pays an instructor it would be ok to collect money to pay the instructor. The person renting the clubhouse is not profiting. However, if the owner is the yoga instructor then they are obviously using it to raise money.

MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 9:59 AM  
IF a person were to "reserve" reserve the pool using all the proper documentation, who is to really know if money ever changed handed.

I've managed a couple of HOA where they allowed the pool to be rented. I handled all the paperwork, providing the form, collecting the fee and deposit, having the area inspected after the event and returning the deposit if conditions satisfied.

No where in their covenants does it say they could have owners reserve the pool, BUT, more importantly, NOWHERE, and I emphasis, NOWHERE does it state they can't.

While Kerry's place may not have ever let someone reserve the pool, she didn't say whether it was allowed, like others down the street.
DavidG45
(Delaware)

Posts:144


06/29/2021 10:10 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 9:59 AM
IF a person were to "reserve" reserve the pool using all the proper documentation, who is to really know if money ever changed handed.

I've managed a couple of HOA where they allowed the pool to be rented. I handled all the paperwork, providing the form, collecting the fee and deposit, having the area inspected after the event and returning the deposit if conditions satisfied.

No where in their covenants does it say they could have owners reserve the pool, BUT, more importantly, NOWHERE, and I emphasis, NOWHERE does it state they can't.

While Kerry's place may not have ever let someone reserve the pool, she didn't say whether it was allowed, like others down the street.




Thanks.

My inclination is to believe that if the covenants are silent on something - such as renting the facilities - that is where we are free to write rules that we think are in the best interest of the community without fear that we are conflicting with the covenants. Some seem to feel that if it isn't expressly written in the covenants then we can't do it.

In our situation, the pool would not be rented - just a half dozen ladies would be in one spot of our large pool doing their exercise. And it would be at a time of day when usually no one else is there. After reading the bulk of these posts I am coming down on the side of allowing it so long as it is under the umbrella of the Social Committee; where they can decide who does the instruction. Heck, if someone volunteers to do it for free then they could have that person run the class.

I appreciate the input.

MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 10:13 AM  
Posted By DavidG45 on 06/29/2021 9:42 AM
So your opinion regarding the other activities I mentioned in the first post is that they should not be allowed, as well? That is, the lady coming in to do a Painting class with everyone paying $25 would not be allowed. Or hiring a guitar player to play music in the patio area. Food trucks in the clubhouse parking lot?

So long as money is exchanged it would be considered a commercial use and therefor not allowed.






This brings up a good point. Some associations actually have social committees setup that host events that the association and its owners pay for with their dues. Some posters here don't feel it's not proper, one feels it's illegal and their suggestion was having the HOA or the social committee bring in food trucks, for one, and have the owners pay for the food at the event with their own money. In-and-Out hamburger gets to use common area space for their truck to sell their product making a profit.

Is that even in your covenants?
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 10:14 AM  
Posted By DavidG45 on 06/29/2021 10:10 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 9:59 AM
IF a person were to "reserve" reserve the pool using all the proper documentation, who is to really know if money ever changed handed.

I've managed a couple of HOA where they allowed the pool to be rented. I handled all the paperwork, providing the form, collecting the fee and deposit, having the area inspected after the event and returning the deposit if conditions satisfied.

No where in their covenants does it say they could have owners reserve the pool, BUT, more importantly, NOWHERE, and I emphasis, NOWHERE does it state they can't.

While Kerry's place may not have ever let someone reserve the pool, she didn't say whether it was allowed, like others down the street.




Thanks.

My inclination is to believe that if the covenants are silent on something - such as renting the facilities - that is where we are free to write rules that we think are in the best interest of the community without fear that we are conflicting with the covenants. Some seem to feel that if it isn't expressly written in the covenants then we can't do it.

In our situation, the pool would not be rented - just a half dozen ladies would be in one spot of our large pool doing their exercise. And it would be at a time of day when usually no one else is there. After reading the bulk of these posts I am coming down on the side of allowing it so long as it is under the umbrella of the Social Committee; where they can decide who does the instruction. Heck, if someone volunteers to do it for free then they could have that person run the class.

I appreciate the input.




I agree 110%!
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/29/2021 10:21 AM  
Posted By DavidG45 on 06/27/2021 4:23 PM
[... ] we now have a Facilities Committee that is re-visiting [temporary rules put in place by the developer?]. One of the rules is that you cannot use the clubhouse for commercial purposes, which we basically assumed meant you can't have Amway meetings, real estate seminars, etc.

Now we have some folks who want to have Pilates classes and water aerobics, and are looking to charge maybe $5 a person. We're kind of split on whether this should be considered an acceptable use of the facilities. I'm curious what conventional wisdom says in the HOA world.
Committees are anathema when the Board has the final say so, committees are anathema. How many of these committee members have a handle on liability implications? The meaning of covenants? Ask each committee member if she/he knows the difference between a Board-created rule and regulation and the covenants, and you might be underwhelmed.

All this has the feel of fifth grade boys forming a club; establishing a clubhouse on a vacant lot; writing their own bylaws; running their own trials or committees; and so on; all without any legal force. It's just "make up some stuff" thought to be important at the moment.

I think what is most important is making sure the first post-developer election of directors is on track.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11665


06/29/2021 10:25 AM  
David

To summarize my belief. The classes are to be sponsored by the Social Committee and are open to "owners only". The Social Committee will pay the instructor. There might could be a small charge to user/owners to offset any cost.
BarbaraT1
(Texas)

Posts:589


06/29/2021 10:26 AM  
Posted By DavidG45 on 06/29/2021 10:10 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 9:59 AM
IF a person were to "reserve" reserve the pool using all the proper documentation, who is to really know if money ever changed handed.

I've managed a couple of HOA where they allowed the pool to be rented. I handled all the paperwork, providing the form, collecting the fee and deposit, having the area inspected after the event and returning the deposit if conditions satisfied.

No where in their covenants does it say they could have owners reserve the pool, BUT, more importantly, NOWHERE, and I emphasis, NOWHERE does it state they can't.

While Kerry's place may not have ever let someone reserve the pool, she didn't say whether it was allowed, like others down the street.




Thanks.

My inclination is to believe that if the covenants are silent on something - such as renting the facilities - that is where we are free to write rules that we think are in the best interest of the community without fear that we are conflicting with the covenants. Some seem to feel that if it isn't expressly written in the covenants then we can't do it.

In our situation, the pool would not be rented - just a half dozen ladies would be in one spot of our large pool doing their exercise. And it would be at a time of day when usually no one else is there. After reading the bulk of these posts I am coming down on the side of allowing it so long as it is under the umbrella of the Social Committee; where they can decide who does the instruction. Heck, if someone volunteers to do it for free then they could have that person run the class.

I appreciate the input.






I agree. Covenants are not exhaustively detailed, and will never specifically address every conceivable scenario. If your documents give the board authority to make rules about the use of the common area or amenities, then that is what you are doing.

AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/29/2021 10:26 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 9:59 AM
No where in their covenants does it say they could have owners reserve the pool, BUT, more importantly, NOWHERE, and I emphasis, NOWHERE does it state they can't.
By your understanding of common areas and covenants, a Board may approve the Jones family having exclusive use of the COA/HOA pool for the July 4 long weekend. Why? Because the covenants say the board sets the rules on common area usage.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 10:42 AM  
Actually committees are not a group hated or detested by Boards. In California, homeowners have the final say on whether rules are actually put into place. They do have the ability, rightfully so, to override the actions of a board.

Rules and Regulations that are enacted have to be fair and reasonable. Let's say the board make a rule that having your trash cans in view of the common area is a violation and subject to a fine. Nowhere in the covenants is that rule stated. But in doing research, the board found that similar language was found in over 300,000 HOA's in the United States.

It is one thing when the covenants say something can't be done, something completely different when the covenants are silent about, something like, amenities.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11665


06/29/2021 10:49 AM  
As Max said:

It is one thing when the covenants say something can't be done, something completely different when the covenants are silent about, something like, amenities.

How true.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 10:50 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/29/2021 10:26 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 9:59 AM
No where in their covenants does it say they could have owners reserve the pool, BUT, more importantly, NOWHERE, and I emphasis, NOWHERE does it state they can't.
By your understanding of common areas and covenants, a Board may approve the Jones family having exclusive use of the COA/HOA pool for the July 4 long weekend. Why? Because the covenants say the board sets the rules on common area usage.



No, actually I go by the conditions set forth in the guidelines for renting the pool. Ours had a 4 hours time frame. The owner fills the form, sends in the fee and deposit along with the insurance waiver. 30 day advance notice. A sign would be posted at the bulletin boards through the community 7 days prior to the event. A board member or committee member would inspect the premises for outcome of the deposit.

Legal counsel wrote the guidelines and form, so I would take their interpretation over yours. SORRY.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/29/2021 10:50 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 10:42 AM

Rules and Regulations that are enacted have to be fair and reasonable.
To me this is one of the main points of the thread: To test whether folks here think letting an exercise group cordon off the pool for its own use, and while charging money, is reasonable and fair. I agree with anyone who says this is tomato vs. tahmahto.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 10:54 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/29/2021 10:50 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 10:42 AM

Rules and Regulations that are enacted have to be fair and reasonable.
To me this is one of the main points of the thread: To test whether folks here think letting an exercise group cordon off the pool for its own use, and while charging money, is reasonable and fair. I agree with anyone who says this is tomato vs. tahmahto.



Let the owners make that determination, not you.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/29/2021 10:57 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 06/29/2021 10:49 AM
As Max said:

It is one thing when the covenants say something can't be done, something completely different when the covenants are silent about, something like, amenities.

How true.
No, bad interpretation of the law on covenants. E.g. suppose the covenants are silent on the subject of pets and livestock. A HOA Board creates a rule prohibiting goats on home lots. Such a rule goes against the well-established common law right to free enjoyment of property. But by some neophytes' reasoning, the Board is all-powerful and can make up any rule it wants, without a basis in the covenants.

Can a board make up any rule it wants pertaining to common areas? No.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/29/2021 10:58 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 10:54 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 06/29/2021 10:50 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 10:42 AM

Rules and Regulations that are enacted have to be fair and reasonable.
To me this is one of the main points of the thread: To test whether folks here think letting an exercise group cordon off the pool for its own use, and while charging money, is reasonable and fair. I agree with anyone who says this is tomato vs. tahmahto.



Let the owners make that determination, not you.
It's up to the Board, not you, not me, not anyone here, not even DavidG45 by himself.
BarbaraT1
(Texas)

Posts:589


06/29/2021 11:02 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/29/2021 10:26 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 9:59 AM
No where in their covenants does it say they could have owners reserve the pool, BUT, more importantly, NOWHERE, and I emphasis, NOWHERE does it state they can't.
By your understanding of common areas and covenants, a Board may approve the Jones family having exclusive use of the COA/HOA pool for the July 4 long weekend. Why? Because the covenants say the board sets the rules on common area usage.




Yeah, they can.

Just like they can make the rule that the pool is closed at 10pm and open at 6am or open in summer and closed in winter. Or closed during a pandemic.



AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/29/2021 11:11 AM  
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 06/29/2021 11:02 AM

Yeah, [the Board] can [approve the Jones family having exclusive use of the HOA/COA pool for the July 4 long weekend]

Just like they can make the rule that the pool is closed at 10pm and open at 6am or open in summer and closed in winter. Or closed during a pandemic.
I see. And I understand you seriously cannot think of a reason, under the covenants, why the Board's approving the Jones family having exclusive use of the member-owned HOA/COA pool for a long weekend poses a legal problem.
BarbaraT1
(Texas)

Posts:589


06/29/2021 11:23 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/29/2021 11:11 AM
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 06/29/2021 11:02 AM

Yeah, [the Board] can [approve the Jones family having exclusive use of the HOA/COA pool for the July 4 long weekend]

Just like they can make the rule that the pool is closed at 10pm and open at 6am or open in summer and closed in winter. Or closed during a pandemic.
I see. And I understand you seriously cannot think of a reason, under the covenants, why the Board's approving the Jones family having exclusive use of the member-owned HOA/COA pool for a long weekend poses a legal problem.




Of course I can. I think it would be a terrible idea. But whether they should is a separate issue from whether they can.

Do you think a board doesn't have the authority set the hours and months a pool is open unless the covenants explicitly state those exact words?
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/29/2021 11:28 AM  
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 06/29/2021 11:23 AM
Do you think a board doesn't have the authority set the hours and months a pool is open unless the covenants explicitly state those exact words?
The covenants typically give the Board the power to set reasonable rules and regulations concerning use of the common areas.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 11:32 AM  
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 06/29/2021 11:23 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 06/29/2021 11:11 AM
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 06/29/2021 11:02 AM

Yeah, [the Board] can [approve the Jones family having exclusive use of the HOA/COA pool for the July 4 long weekend]

Just like they can make the rule that the pool is closed at 10pm and open at 6am or open in summer and closed in winter. Or closed during a pandemic.
I see. And I understand you seriously cannot think of a reason, under the covenants, why the Board's approving the Jones family having exclusive use of the member-owned HOA/COA pool for a long weekend poses a legal problem.




Of course I can. I think it would be a terrible idea. But whether they should is a separate issue from whether they can.

Do you think a board doesn't have the authority set the hours and months a pool is open unless the covenants explicitly state those exact words?



Our guidelines stated owners had a 4 hour window and holidays were excluded. Our management company handled all the arrangements. The Board was just notified when the pool or basketball court was reserved. There was never a process for approval as long as the guidelines were adhered to.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11665


06/29/2021 3:01 PM  
Another thread deteriorates to a Max an Aug pissing contest. This is getting tiresome.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 3:08 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 06/29/2021 3:01 PM
Another thread deteriorates to a Max an Aug pissing contest. This is getting tiresome.



Actually John, he's pissing on anyone that doesn't agree with him.
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/29/2021 4:24 PM  
How sad that a few ladies wishing to exercise in the pool is so complex. It seems as if these complexities dictate our lives in so many ways these days. I understand the liability issues but come on. Let the ladies exercise. I would not interpret it as a business money making enterprise.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 4:31 PM  
I let you people haggle over the fine points of interpreting one's covenant. It's my wife's and my anniversary and we're going to a nice restaurant and I'm going to have a fabulous steak and a nice bottle of Pinot Noir from Louis Jadot Gevrey Chambertin Saint-Jacques, 2015.
KellyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:1806


06/29/2021 5:05 PM  
Plot Twist....Max and Augustin being the same person......
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/29/2021 5:53 PM  
Posted By KellyM3 on 06/29/2021 5:05 PM
Plot Twist....Max and Augustin being the same person......



Not in this lifetime.
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/30/2021 5:49 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/29/2021 5:53 PM
Posted By KellyM3 on 06/29/2021 5:05 PM
Plot Twist....Max and Augustin being the same person......



Not in this lifetime.



Max you remind me of Richard from California. He used to be a regular poster on HOATalk. He kept some of the regular posters on this forum on alert quite often. I believe he also owned some management companies in California. Max, might you be Richard?
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