Get 1 year of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Monday, December 06, 2021











HOATalk is a free service of Community123.com:

Easy to use website tools to help your board
Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.
Subject: All pay for EV charging capacity, but not all may use it
Prev Next
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Author Messages
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8729


06/18/2021 7:16 PM  
Our urban high rise HOA has 3 levels of underground parking with deeded parking spaces that are exclusive use common area. We finally have a Committee that has found a vendor, etc., to install EV charging stations at our parking spaces.

Calif. requires that owners be permitted to install charging stations and there is Civil Code to include in Association’s requirements. I’d say we have about 8 EVs here and some of their owners have requested access to charging stations for up to three years now.

The “backbone” of the system involves our electric panel, which currently could serve 38 EV charging stations. This infrastructure upgrade will cost about $40,000. We made room in our 2021 operating budget for this expense. We have about 200 condo units, so the “backbone” will cost each unit $200.

To run the juice from said panel to individual parking spaces will cost the space owner from $2,700-$3,400 depending upon how far the space is from the P-2 Electrical Room. Individual Owners will pay for their own electrical usage plus about $15/mo. to the firm that oversees this system.

The EV Committee wants to prioritize who gets the first 38 stations if demand is that high: 1. EV Owners. 2. EV owners who live here at least 6 months out of the year. 3. Owners whose tenants have EVs. 4. Those who “plan” to buy an EV. The expected date of purchase would be on the request form. There’s a $2,000 required deposit on a charging station

Unlike other items like the pool or gym to which all units contribute equally and all residents have equal access, the EV Comm’s proposal wants all owners to share the initial $40,000 to serve only the first 38 owners who meet the criteria. I’m on the Board. This seems inequitable to me. Am I overthinking this???
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/18/2021 7:29 PM  
I would contact SCE to look at their incentive programs:

https://www.evconnect.com/charge-ready-2?utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=SCE+Charge+Ready+2&utm_term=apartments%20with%20car%20charging&hsa_tgt=kwd-810701444587&hsa_grp=126880016371&hsa_mt=b&hsa_cam=12793454081&hsa_ver=3&hsa_src=g&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_kw=apartments%20with%20car%20charging&hsa_acc=7281861922&hsa_ad=515873172185&gclid=CjwKCAjwiLGGBhAqEiwAgq3q_kixHBkstyG_uLlaYYenvKbs2-TWdEGyRD7mI2L5fzu_btC7rrmmXxoCe1IQAvD_BwE
JackJ9


Posts:0


06/18/2021 8:01 PM  
At first blush, I tend to agree with the OP. It's clearly not practical to include sufficient "backbones" to allow every stall to have EV charging station. Thus, 38 out of several hundred will have a feature that the remaining units do not. This is not treating every unit owner equally.

In my opinion, the initial 8 people who want the device should be approached to see if they want to share the cost. At $5000 per unit, plus $2700 to run it to their stall, this is a reasonable add-on expense. Potentially, this cost could be recouped (at least in part) when they sell their unit because their unit will have a feature that others do not.
JackJ9


Posts:0


06/18/2021 8:01 PM  
At first blush, I tend to agree with the OP. It's clearly not practical to include sufficient "backbones" to allow every stall to have EV charging station. Thus, 38 out of several hundred will have a feature that the remaining units do not. This is not treating every unit owner equally.

In my opinion, the initial 8 people who want the device should be approached to see if they want to share the cost. At $5000 per unit, plus $2700 to run it to their stall, this is a reasonable add-on expense. Potentially, this cost could be recouped (at least in part) when they sell their unit because their unit will have a feature that others do not.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1466


06/18/2021 9:52 PM  
If your board gave me a bill for $200.00 for something that I have no use for and only be a benefit to less than 17% of the units, I would tell them to stick it.
On the other hand where is your reserve study and does it list electrical upgrades, end of life, etc in your reserve study? That could be one way to lighten the blow and be a backdoor to get the $40K to upgrade your panel to accommodate EV's and not take from your operating budget. .. When it comes to meters and charges, those cost should be put on the end user and not the entire association.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/19/2021 5:15 AM  
-- Citations from Davis-Stirling.com and the Civil Code appear below.

-- That only owners who obtain (via the COA) an EV charging station may be billed for this charging station is clear to me. The sections of the Civil Code saying thusly should be quoted to the EV Committee.

-- Also relevant is any covenant that states that any services provided to one unit and not all units shall be billable to this unit. Quote such covenants as well to the EV Committee.

-- You are not overthinking this. You are sparing the EV Committee would could be a grave mistake that will result in many complaints and inappropriate, large bills to people who should not be billed.

-- I think the only equitable way to do this is to have "rolling billing," re-computed say once every two years, to keep the bookkeeping costs down. For example:

By the end of Year One -- Solicit owners who want a charging station. Explain the estimated cost for initial installation. Explain that the final cost will depend on how many sign up the first year and how many sign up in subsequent years. Require a non-refundable(?) deposit of $5000 per requester. In other words, people have to commit. Start an "EV Ledger" recording how much each owner has paid in. Explain that the EV Ledger will be updated every two years as more owners agree to purchase EV charging stations for their respective units. Explain that every two years, the initial, first year owners will receive rebates consistent with the fact that more owners have purchased EV charging stations. In some years, there will be no rebate, and there may in fact be additional billing, reflecting further maintenance or upgrades, for EV purposes, on the electric panel as needed. Assume that X owners initially commit.

At End of Year Three -- Assume an additional Y owners have had EV stations installed (via the COA) in the last two years. Re-compute the initial cost per owner, using the initial fees divided by (X + Y) owners. Award rebates to the initial X owners. Bill the additional Y owners as needed.

At end of Year Five -- Assume an additional X owners have had EV stations installed (via the COA) in the last two years. Re-compute the initial cost per owner, using the initial fees divided by (X+Y+Z) owners. Award rebates to the initial X + Y owners. Bill the additional Z owners as needed.

And so on.

Of course, where EV is headed is unknown. The algorithm above may need adjustment, and such adjustment is bound to result in some unavoidable inequities. A COA does the best they can, with an eye to the statute and covenants, and so it has a good defense of anyone sues.

About how long will it take to install the "backbone" and run wire to each parking space?


Citations:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-4745
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-47451
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/EV-Reasonable-Expense
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Electric-Vehicle-Charging-Stations
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2599


06/19/2021 5:30 AM  
I can see both sides of the argument, although I fall more on the side of charging everyone. I assume that your pool and gym are not used by 100% of your membership, and those who don't still pay for these things.

I'm looking at this more long term. I'm assuming that the "backbone" will serve the entire condo building, so that as demand for charging stations grows the necessary infrastructure is already in place - correct?

If you do put the cost of the backbone only onto those who want it now, what happens ten years down the road when more owners have electrical vehicles and want to charge them? Do the original owners who paid for the backbone say "nope" or "we want to be reimbursed"? That will get unworkable fast. And it's usually cheaper to bite the bullet and do everything at once, rather than piecemeal over time.

Are there any options for creative financing that could help offset the cost of the backbone, such as government support for conversion to electrical vehicles?

I guess the bottom line is that I don't view the folks who want these charging stations as outliers, they're just early adapters of something that we're going to be moving toward more and more. If they truly were a minority and were likely to stay that way, I'd be more on the side of charging them the full cost. But it's also not reasonable to expect them to pay the full cost of something that will benefit the entire community - if for no other reason than it supports home values because charging stations are a valuable amenity.

(One possible issue, though: is this the sort of upgrade that would require a community vote? That could drive the decision. If so, then come up with a plan for those who did not pay for their share of the backbone to "buy in" as needed, with a method of reimbursing the others who subsidized it. But I really don't like this option - it's messy, a nuisance to administer, doesn't account for people moving in and out, etc. etc.)




AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/19/2021 6:27 AM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/19/2021 5:30 AM
I guess the bottom line is that I don't view the folks who want these charging stations as outliers, they're just early adapters of something that we're going to be moving toward more and more.
They're mighty expensive when bought new compared to new gasoline-powered vehicles. I remain under the impression that those with money buy them because they're cool: Quiet with smooth acceleration, like one is a character driving in a Star Trek film.

Time may prove me wrong, and I know legislation regulates emissions and this is driving some car manufacturer's decisions, but I am not sure EV will be the rule in 10 years or 20 years.
JackJ9


Posts:0


06/19/2021 8:03 AM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/19/2021 5:30 AM
I can see both sides of the argument, although I fall more on the side of charging everyone. I assume that your pool and gym are not used by 100% of your membership, and those who don't still pay for these things.





My take on it is that the $40,000 upgrades serves a maximum of 38 parking stalls. A 39th unit owner who wanted to install the EV system would be denied because the panel is full.

This is different than a gym or a pool, where every unit owner has access and ability to use the pool. Even in case of disability or dislike, guests of the unit owner may enjoy those features and access can be included in the sales flyer in case the unit is sold. This situation would be akin to building a new pool or gym, but only granting access to the first 38 out of 200 unit owners but still having everyone pay for it.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/19/2021 8:12 AM  
Posted By JackJ9 on 06/19/2021 8:03 AM
My take on it is that the $40,000 upgrades serves a maximum of 38 parking stalls. A 39th unit owner who wanted to install the EV system would be denied because the panel is full.
The 2012 California statute section on the subject seems to indicate a COA may deny no one an EV charging station.

KerryL1, is providing EV charging stations to a certain number of parking spaces and letting owners/tenants rotate in and out of these parking spaces a possibility?
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/19/2021 8:19 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/19/2021 8:12 AM
is providing EV charging stations to a certain number of parking spaces and letting owners/tenants rotate in and out of these parking spaces a possibility?
From https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-4745, I am thinking this is not an option.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


06/19/2021 9:46 AM  
If the charging station is placed in the common area and paid for by all residents, then its use cannot be limited to the first 38, it must be available to all meaning charge it and then move it.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8729


06/19/2021 4:57 PM  

Thanks to all for comments. Jack captures my concern: "My take on it is that the $40,000 upgrades serves a maximum of 38 parking stalls. A 39th unit owner who wanted to install the EV system would be denied because the panel is full." We ALL pay but we all may not be provided access (unlike pool or gym). That is the inequality that concerns me. I heard of one HOA (we don't have COAs in CA) that also began with a 40-space capacity at a cost of about $40,000. Their Board had Owners buy "shares," with each owner paying a 40th of the $40K plus the cost of running the conduit to the space & the station itself.

To Cathy's point, there would need to be additional upgrades to the electrical panel to accommodate, say, 20 or 40 more EV stations for which we'd all be charged (pun intended) again. I don't think it would be $40K for 40 more stations, but it would be some amount.

There are a number of Owners who'd be willing to pay the $2,700-$3,500 to run the conduit and juice to their parking space as an investment, just like installing new flooring in their condo. Sure, they'd have to say on the form that they're buying an EV in 12/22 or some such, but... These are our wealthier owners or flippers. It's because of them that I suspect we might "use up" all 40 spaces. The $2,000 deposit to "reserve" station service is non-refundable (except if the project can't be carried out).

We have a project manager who's picked up this project and gotten the bids, etc. He's with a construction firm and we hired him to get involved with several major projects we have in the works. As noted in my O.P., we built a lot of flex into our 2021 operating budget for some of these projects. He's checked into incentive programs and there just aren't any good ones at this time. We lost out on some a couple of years ago when our old abusive board dragged their heels on this project.

I need to do my homework and reread the citations for mainly Civ. 4745, that i admit I haven't reviewed in a couple of years. Augie's thoughtful ideas need more of my math-disabled mind's time.

We do have underground Visitor Parking, which is quite an amenity in our urban 'hood. It's common area and we could change rules and permit Owners to park in a couple of the spaces ( total 15) to charge their EVs. I sense there'd be a messy sign-up system, where most would want to charge their EVs at night.

Please reread my OP LetA. And no we have no reserve component whatsoever for a generalized improving our overall electrical system.


Jeez, is there anything that the the moderators or someone can do to get rid of my bad long lines of verbiage? A wrap?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10590


06/19/2021 6:11 PM  
My opinion is that EV charging is a new technology that eventually we all need to start to adapt. It will be a consideration to the "new" future buyers. Which is what a HOA wants to attract.

Not everyone wants a pool. They may not swim, like public pools, or have no interest in them. However, a HOA having a pool attracts potential buyers with families. The scope of buyers they want to be members.

So even though not everyone is going to enjoy the amenity, it is a benefit for all as for attracting buyers.

Former HOA President
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8729


06/19/2021 6:20 PM  
I'm sorry that I didn't make my concern clear, Melissa, and don't feel like repeating myself right now.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


06/19/2021 6:35 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/19/2021 4:57 PM
is there anything that the the moderators or someone can do to get rid of my bad long lines of verbiage? A wrap?
I have been wondering about this. SteveR11's thread "Paint denial letter" has this non-wrap going on as well.
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3615


07/04/2021 6:37 AM  
I agree. You need to think long term. Companies are already stating they are not going to make gas cars anymore after certain dates. Eventually every car company will only be selling electric cars.

The biggest issue I see at this moment is no standard for chargers. So I wouldn't want to invest any serious money in something that has not been standardized. If you buy the chargers, you may need to toss them in the dumpster after companies pick a different charger standard.

Another issue is competition. Gas stations will eventually change over to electric because of access to lots of power at commercial properties. These high power chargers will get your car to 80% in minutes. So why would your association invest tens of thousands of dollars in something no one is going to use in the future as your rates would be higher and slower charge times.

Same advice goes for adopting other fast moving technologies. Companies, Condos etc, spent thousands on ISDN internet, and other higher speed options over the years. All ended up in the dumpster when it was time to upgrade. Worthless. Spent tens of thousands on telephone infrastructure for your building? People switched to cell phones, no land lines anymore.

If it was my condo, I would push for 110v outlets run to every parking spot. This allows owners to charge the car with the charger that comes with the car, even though its slow it will meet that requirement. They can get fast charging from a "gas" station that offers that service. Cost to upgrade the electrical room may be minimal since your dealing with 110v. Your condo could decide to run electrical to every spot at once, or as needed for a set price to the owner which has been setup with a local electrical company in advance. Either way the system and wire gauge should be designed for ALL spots to have chargers on 110v and the maximum wattage that would need. This would be FAR cheaper than 220v.
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > All pay for EV charging capacity, but not all may use it



Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.







General Legal Notice:  The content of forum messages are from the posting member and have not been reviewed nor endorsed by HOATalk.com.  Messages posted by HOATalk or other members are for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice and do not constitute an attorney-client relationship.  Readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel.  HOATalk is not a licensed attorney, CPA, tax advisor, financial advisor or any other licensed professional.  HOATalk accepts ads from sponsors but does not verify sponsor qualifications nor endorse/guarantee any sponsor's product or service.
Legal Notice For Messages Posted by Sponsoring Attorneys: This message has been prepared by the sponsoring attorney for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Readers of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send any sponsoring attorney confidential information unless you speak with the sponsoring attorney or an attorney from the sponsoring attorney’s firm and get authorization to send that information to them. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in the firm of the sponsoring attorney. Sponsoring attorneys that post messages here are licensed to practice law in a specific state or states as indicated in their message signature or sponsor’s profile page. (NOTE: A ‘sponsoring attorney’ is an attorney that is a HOATalk.com official sponsor and is identified as such in the posted message or on our sponsor page.)

Copyright HOA Talk.com, A Service of Community123 LLC ( Homeowners Association Discussions )   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement