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Subject: How do I get "owner's rights"?
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AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 9:31 AM  
Hello,

I was wondering if anyone here can help me with my situation. I have asked several people about this issue, but no one seems to have an answer.

I live in New York City. Many decades ago, my family (my parents) purchased an empty, undeveloped (but buildable) lot in a "planned community" in Pennsylvania (the Poconos). It is a "community association" with a board of directors, etc. We never built a house on this lot, but we probably will in the near future. Right now, there are 2 names listed on the deed to this piece of property: my father and mother. My father passed away several years ago, and my mother is elderly (79 years old).

According to this community's By-Laws, there is only one way to become a "member" of this community's community association and get "owner's rights" in this community. You must list your name on a deed to a piece of property (or home) in this community.

By "owner's rights", I am referring to the right to vote for BOD members in this community, the right to attend community meetings in the clubhouse, the right to bring issues and/or questions to the BOD, etc. If your name isn't listed on the deed, you are not allowed to vote or attend community meetings in the clubhouse.

Many years ago, I became disabled, and I receive disability benefits from the US government. Since I am disabled, the US government places many restrictions on me. One of those restrictions is that I am not allowed to list my name on a deed. I CANNOT list my name on a deed. I can't even think about it.

Some time in the near future (probably when my mother passes away or sooner), I plan on building a house in this community and living there 365 days a year. However, the house that I live in will be deeded under someone else's name. In the most likely scenario, my sister's name will be listed on the deed. But she won't be living there. She will probably continue to live here in New York City. And I will live alone in the house that we will build in this community in the Poconos.

Right now, this is only a minor problem because I don't live there. However, when I live in this community in the near future, this problem will "snowball". It will become many times worse. I literally won't be allowed to vote, attend community meetings, etc.

Has anyone here in this Forum ever encountered this problem? If yes, can you help me and/or offer advice to me? How do I get "owner's rights" in this community without actually listing my name on a deed in this community (which is something that the US government will not permit me to do because I am disabled)?

Is there some type of document that I can have drafted to transfer "owner's rights" to me (despite the fact that my name will not be listed on the deed)? Can I type this document myself and have it notarized? Would that be sufficient? Would it have to be something more formal than that? Would I need to deal with a lawyer? Since I am disabled, I am on limited income. I really can't afford to pay a lawyer for this document.

Thank you in advance for any assistance.
AugustinD


Posts:1937


06/07/2021 9:37 AM  
Posted By AugustO on 06/07/2021 9:31 AM

Many years ago, I became disabled, and I receive disability benefits from the US government. Since I am disabled, the US government places many restrictions on me. One of those restrictions is that I am not allowed to list my name on a deed. I CANNOT list my name on a deed. I can't even think about it.
I have a legally, (developmentally) disabled sibling who received SSI (until regular Social Security kicked in). Her name was (and remains) on a deed.

If you have a citation for your claim (that I quote above), posting it would be best.

Else I expect the disability topic to which you are referring concerns income limitations for being eligible for government disability payments. At this writing, I am not persuaded that what you posted is accurate.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 10:02 AM  
Hello AD,

Thank you for the reply.

I don't understand what you mean by "citation" or "claim".

What you wrote is partially true. However, it isn't about income. It is about assets.

There are certain types of disability programs in the USA (SSI, etc.) where a recipient has restrictions placed on him. And one of those restrictions regards listing names on deeds. Some disablity programs won't allow that at all. Some disabilty programs allow it, but there are limitation on the value of the home and/or property. And therein lies the problem. Home prices tend to fluctuate. Right now, homes in that area of the country (the Poconos) are depressed, and they have been ever since the Great Recession. However, at points in the past, the value of homes has increased significantly (prior to the Great Recession, etc.).

I have a relative (a cousin) who deals with these types of issues. She is in the medical profession. She works with disabled people and handles cases for them (government paperwork, etc.). In the past, she has told me horror stories about how disabled people purchased homes that were low-to-medium value at the time of purchase. Then, the real estate market heated up, and the value of these homes skyrocketed. Consequently, it put those people over the threshold for government limitations on assets. And these people literally lost their disability benefits and/or their health insurance. I don't want that to happen to me.

In my mind, the safe thing to do is not to list my name on the deed at all.

I am a member of one of this community's social media sites. There is a woman in this community who is in the same situation as me. She cannot list her name on a deed in this community because she is disabled. She stated this publicly in this community's social media site.

How did your sibling manage to NOT lose her disability benefits and/or health insurance when the real estate market heated up (circa 2000-2008)?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10595


06/07/2021 10:19 AM  
You just do not want to lose your disability stays or health insurance. This does come down to an income issue. I also take facts over what my cousin says. Get the facts first

I smell something missing here. Not sure what but maybe a little on how can I get what I want without consequences?

Former HOA President
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


06/07/2021 10:23 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/07/2021 10:19 AM
You just do not want to lose your disability stays or health insurance. This does come down to an income issue. I also take facts over what my cousin says. Get the facts first

I smell something missing here. Not sure what but maybe a little on how can I get what I want without consequences?



This just solicits MelissaP1 seat on Augie's Supreme Court.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1689


06/07/2021 12:10 PM  
Generally speaking, you can't get the rights of being an owner without being officially recorded as an owner (name on the deed). There has been some discussion in threads here about whether being granted Power of Attorney confers voting rights, but I don't know that I've seen a conclusive answer.

Another possibility might be to form a corporation or LLC to own the property. From what I've read, entities that are not natural persons are allowed to designate a person to represent the entity, and I would think that would include rights to attend meetings, vote, sit on the board, etc.

Please ignore the petty bickering that seems to gotten worse on this board recently.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/07/2021 2:21 PM  
AugustO,

Not to get too personal but what type of disability program are you on? My sister was on Social Security Disability and owned property. She was the deeded owner. She was under 65 then went on Social Security retirement benefits after reaching 65. Social Security Disability benefits are something you pay into when you are working and then unable to work because of injury or illness. I am not familiar with SSI except that it is a program for people who have never been able to work, are temporarily unable to work, or have not paid in enough to Social Security to qualify for those benefits. I had a brother-in-law who developed MS but had not worked enough to qualify for Social Security Disability benefits but qualified for SSI benefits.

I agree, ignore some of the back and forth noise between some of the posters here. I enjoy reading some of their posts as entertaining and enlightening at the same time. In this age of social media/on-line forums one has to be a careful and discerning reader. There are so many different "flavors" of HOA/Condo properties through-out the country that some situations are unique. The pseudo HOA I live in also requires deeded ownership to vote and attend the annual HOA meetings. I say pseudo because it is not your typical HOA in that the covenants expired but there is still common property to maintain.

I am just sharing information I am aware of from family experience. Good luck getting some complete information so you can move on with your plans.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 3:11 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/07/2021 10:19 AM
You just do not want to lose your disability stays or health insurance. This does come down to an income issue. I also take facts over what my cousin says. Get the facts first

I smell something missing here. Not sure what but maybe a little on how can I get what I want without consequences?




Hello MP1,

Of course, I don't want to lose my health insurance. Some years, my medical bills are hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (6 digits). If I didn't go on disability when I was stricken with my illness when I was 22 years old, my parents would have lost their house trying to pay my medical bills. You don't know what disabled and/or seriously ill people are going through every minute of every day of their lives. I have been through horrors worse than your hell (to borrow a quote from a Rush song).

I was bedridden for 11 years when I was in my 20s, from the time I was 22 years old until I was 33 years old. I literally could not walk from my bedroom to my front porch. It took me 11 years of recovery just to be able to walk from my bedroom to my front porch. I took massive doses (elephant doses) of antibioitics every single day for 8 years. I almost died from my illness. Because I was bedridden for so many years when I was in my 20s, I developed severe, advanced osteoporosis when I was only 35 years old, with 2 fractured vertebrae. 31 years after being stricken with my illness, I am still struggling to lead a semi-normal life. Every day is a struggle.

Nothing is "missing" here. I am a very blunt and brutally honest person.

It is not about "getting what I want without consequences". It is about me trying to obtain the rights of a healthy person. It also about me being tired of being treated like a second-class citizen just because I was stricken with a serious illness when I was 22 years old (an illness that I didn't ask for). I didn't do this to myself.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 3:13 PM  
Hello MB4,

I didn't understand your post at all. It went over my head, by about a billion light-years.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 3:22 PM  
Posted By DouglasK1 on 06/07/2021 12:10 PM
Generally speaking, you can't get the rights of being an owner without being officially recorded as an owner (name on the deed). There has been some discussion in threads here about whether being granted Power of Attorney confers voting rights, but I don't know that I've seen a conclusive answer.

Another possibility might be to form a corporation or LLC to own the property. From what I've read, entities that are not natural persons are allowed to designate a person to represent the entity, and I would think that would include rights to attend meetings, vote, sit on the board, etc.

Please ignore the petty bickering that seems to gotten worse on this board recently.




Hi DK1,

Thank you for the message.

I vaguely remember someone mentioning something about "Power of Attorney" in the past. But, honestly, I don't know how that would apply here. Is "Power of Attorney" exclusively a broad spectrum document? Or can it be specifically drafted and applied to just this situation? In other words, can I obtain a "Power of Attorney" document that only applies to this piece of property that my family owns in the Poconos, but that doesn't apply broadly to every aspect of my mother's affairs? Can a "Power of Attorney" document be that specific?

Thank you for suggesting the LLC route. I didn't think of that. That is an interesting possibility.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 3:37 PM  
Posted By BancsS on 06/07/2021 2:21 PM
AugustO,

Not to get too personal but what type of disability program are you on? My sister was on Social Security Disability and owned property. She was the deeded owner. She was under 65 then went on Social Security retirement benefits after reaching 65. Social Security Disability benefits are something you pay into when you are working and then unable to work because of injury or illness. I am not familiar with SSI except that it is a program for people who have never been able to work, are temporarily unable to work, or have not paid in enough to Social Security to qualify for those benefits. I had a brother-in-law who developed MS but had not worked enough to qualify for Social Security Disability benefits but qualified for SSI benefits.

I agree, ignore some of the back and forth noise between some of the posters here. I enjoy reading some of their posts as entertaining and enlightening at the same time. In this age of social media/on-line forums one has to be a careful and discerning reader. There are so many different "flavors" of HOA/Condo properties through-out the country that some situations are unique. The pseudo HOA I live in also requires deeded ownership to vote and attend the annual HOA meetings. I say pseudo because it is not your typical HOA in that the covenants expired but there is still common property to maintain.

I am just sharing information I am aware of from family experience. Good luck getting some complete information so you can move on with your plans.




Hello BS,

Thank you for the reply.

When I graduated from high school, I went to college. When I graduated from college (with my bachelor's degree), I went to graduate school. I was in the process of getting my master's degree when I was stricken with my illness when I was 22 years old. Consequently, I had no work history. In order to receive Social Security Disability benefits, you must have paid into it for X number of quarters. Bacause of my situation, I had never paid into Social Security when I was stricken with my illness. As a result, when I became disabled, I had to apply for SSI Disability benefits. For that reason, the US government places all of these restrictions on me. People who receive Social Security Disability benefits don't have all of these income/asset restrictions placed on them. Your brother-in-law is in the same situation as me.

In addition to my SSI Disability benefits, I also have to worry about losing my health insurance. I think there are different asset/income limitations for SSI and my health insurance.

It is all very confusing. That is why I feel it is best for me to NOT list my name on a deed.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10595


06/07/2021 3:53 PM  
Okay. We needed more details. Had to figure out a way to get them. Your reaction will judge how people will respond. Quite frankly I don't believe anyone on earth is "Healthy". Everyone has issues. If not, why would there be doctors or prayer?

I had a severely disabled mental and physically step-brother. Much worse than anything you described. He was non-verbal, had to suck fluid out of his lungs with a tube, and his eyes would follow you till they rolled into his head. I know very much about the "disabled" world as other's in here do as well. So you can take your sob story and tell it to someone else who may care. Yes. I am straight talker too.

Again the issue is how you can own a home while you are on disability? Your NOT quoting anything substantial except what OTHER people say. Me and Augustine simply are asking WHAT your paperwork says directly in regards to why you can't have your name on a deed of any sort. Give us the text of the paperwork to have context.

I find it kind of hard to believe that one can't have their name on a deed unless it would directly effect what they can collect. If that is the case that is it. The choice is yours to decide if putting name on a deed is worth the value of the deed versus what your collect.

I work with disabled people all the time. It doesn't make them less worthy people. What makes them less worthy is when they use their disability as a crutch or an excuse. Disabled people can climb mountains, ski, run marathons, and be right alongside "healthy" people.

Former HOA President
JohnT38
(South Carolina)

Posts:794


06/07/2021 3:57 PM  
"I had a severely disabled mental and physically step-brother. Much worse than anything you described. He was non-verbal, had to suck fluid out of his lungs with a tube, and his eyes would follow you till they rolled into his head. I know very much about the "disabled" world as other's in here do as well. So you can take your sob story and tell it to someone else who may care. Yes. I am straight talker too."

You should be kicked off this forum for this. It's sickening.
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/07/2021 5:05 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/07/2021 3:53 PM
Okay. We needed more details. Had to figure out a way to get them. Your reaction will judge how people will respond. Quite frankly I don't believe anyone on earth is "Healthy". Everyone has issues. If not, why would there be doctors or prayer?

I had a severely disabled mental and physically step-brother. Much worse than anything you described. He was non-verbal, had to suck fluid out of his lungs with a tube, and his eyes would follow you till they rolled into his head. I know very much about the "disabled" world as other's in here do as well. So you can take your sob story and tell it to someone else who may care. Yes. I am straight talker too.

Again the issue is how you can own a home while you are on disability? Your NOT quoting anything substantial except what OTHER people say. Me and Augustine simply are asking WHAT your paperwork says directly in regards to why you can't have your name on a deed of any sort. Give us the text of the paperwork to have context.

I find it kind of hard to believe that one can't have their name on a deed unless it would directly effect what they can collect. If that is the case that is it. The choice is yours to decide if putting name on a deed is worth the value of the deed versus what your collect.

I work with disabled people all the time. It doesn't make them less worthy people. What makes them less worthy is when they use their disability as a crutch or an excuse. Disabled people can climb mountains, ski, run marathons, and be right alongside "healthy" people.



Melissa,
You are one of those people that responds to posters by writing anything that pops into your head whether it has validity, is rude, or downright nasty. Maybe, just maybe, you should act like a mature person and eat some humble pie. You could use a good dose of humility.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10595


06/07/2021 5:31 PM  
So leave the handicap stuff out of it and what do you have? Someone whom says that if they sign a deed they lose their benefits. I just want to know where they get that information from?

Once you cut through it, your left with someone whom wants to build on a piece of property in a HOA they wont' be a member of if their name isn't on the deed. How do they get to be a member if they can't do that?

Former HOA President
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/07/2021 5:34 PM  
Posted By AugustO on 06/07/2021 3:37 PM
Posted By BancsS on 06/07/2021 2:21 PM
AugustO,

Not to get too personal but what type of disability program are you on? My sister was on Social Security Disability and owned property. She was the deeded owner. She was under 65 then went on Social Security retirement benefits after reaching 65. Social Security Disability benefits are something you pay into when you are working and then unable to work because of injury or illness. I am not familiar with SSI except that it is a program for people who have never been able to work, are temporarily unable to work, or have not paid in enough to Social Security to qualify for those benefits. I had a brother-in-law who developed MS but had not worked enough to qualify for Social Security Disability benefits but qualified for SSI benefits.

I agree, ignore some of the back and forth noise between some of the posters here. I enjoy reading some of their posts as entertaining and enlightening at the same time. In this age of social media/on-line forums one has to be a careful and discerning reader. There are so many different "flavors" of HOA/Condo properties through-out the country that some situations are unique. The pseudo HOA I live in also requires deeded ownership to vote and attend the annual HOA meetings. I say pseudo because it is not your typical HOA in that the covenants expired but there is still common property to maintain.

I am just sharing information I am aware of from family experience. Good luck getting some complete information so you can move on with your plans.




Hello BS,

Thank you for the reply.

When I graduated from high school, I went to college. When I graduated from college (with my bachelor's degree), I went to graduate school. I was in the process of getting my master's degree when I was stricken with my illness when I was 22 years old. Consequently, I had no work history. In order to receive Social Security Disability benefits, you must have paid into it for X number of quarters. Bacause of my situation, I had never paid into Social Security when I was stricken with my illness. As a result, when I became disabled, I had to apply for SSI Disability benefits. For that reason, the US government places all of these restrictions on me. People who receive Social Security Disability benefits don't have all of these income/asset restrictions placed on them. Your brother-in-law is in the same situation as me.

In addition to my SSI Disability benefits, I also have to worry about losing my health insurance. I think there are different asset/income limitations for SSI and my health insurance.

It is all very confusing. That is why I feel it is best for me to NOT list my name on a deed.




Thank you for sharing your personal story. It takes courage to share that in an on-line forum. I wish I had some ideas for you. I can understand not wanting to be on a property deed so as not to complicate your disability situation. You mentioned a sister that would possibly be on the property deed. If she were on the deed, she would have membership rights. Would she be willing to provide information to you about the HOA and keep you in the loop of what is going on. Could you then express your desires about voting on topics and voting on board members and all things HOA related. I know it is not ideal but perhaps would satisfy a bit of your desire to participate in the HOA through your sister. Sometimes circumstances leave us with a less than the desired involvement.

I personally am not involved in my HOA except to send my yearly dues. That is perfectly fine with me. I was sued by the HOA board several years ago and prefer to put that ugliness behind me and stay away. It is clearly a board that bickers and places emphasis on items that I see as nit picky but I applaud them for keeping the bills paid and keeping up on the maintenance of the common areas. Perhaps that would be enough involvement for you to have the home in the poconos that you wish for.

I just realized that my initials on this forum are BS. HA!
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10595


06/07/2021 5:39 PM  
As its name implies, SSDI is an insurance program. So long as you are unable to engage in substantial gainful activity, you will qualify for SSDI if you have earned the appropriate work credits. Owning real estate alone should never disqualify someone from qualifying for SSDI.

Well that was a quick google search...

Former HOA President
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1689


06/07/2021 5:55 PM  
Posted By AugustO on 06/07/2021 3:22 PM
Posted By DouglasK1 on 06/07/2021 12:10 PM
Generally speaking, you can't get the rights of being an owner without being officially recorded as an owner (name on the deed). There has been some discussion in threads here about whether being granted Power of Attorney confers voting rights, but I don't know that I've seen a conclusive answer.

Another possibility might be to form a corporation or LLC to own the property. From what I've read, entities that are not natural persons are allowed to designate a person to represent the entity, and I would think that would include rights to attend meetings, vote, sit on the board, etc.

Please ignore the petty bickering that seems to gotten worse on this board recently.




Hi DK1,

Thank you for the message.

I vaguely remember someone mentioning something about "Power of Attorney" in the past. But, honestly, I don't know how that would apply here. Is "Power of Attorney" exclusively a broad spectrum document? Or can it be specifically drafted and applied to just this situation? In other words, can I obtain a "Power of Attorney" document that only applies to this piece of property that my family owns in the Poconos, but that doesn't apply broadly to every aspect of my mother's affairs? Can a "Power of Attorney" document be that specific?

Thank you for suggesting the LLC route. I didn't think of that. That is an interesting possibility.



Powers of Attorney can be general (full POA) or limited (specific purposes). Whether a POA would work or not is hard to say.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/07/2021 5:57 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/07/2021 5:39 PM
As its name implies, SSDI is an insurance program. So long as you are unable to engage in substantial gainful activity, you will qualify for SSDI if you have earned the appropriate work credits. Owning real estate alone should never disqualify someone from qualifying for SSDI.

Well that was a quick google search...



Melissa, did you read AugustO's response to my question about what disability program she is on. SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance)and SSI (Supplemental Security Income) are two different programs. I don't know what the asset limitations are on receiving SSI but it is possible that property ownership would disqualify a recipient from receiving it. I know that my mother and mother-in-law had asset restrictions when they were receiving assistance while living in a nursing home. You seem so eager to be "right" all the time and you are often times not.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


06/07/2021 5:59 PM  
To the OP

Any chance you currently own property that your name is on. It may be possible that a "second" asset totaling more than $2000.00 or $3000.00 if married might violation government guidelines.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4297


06/07/2021 6:27 PM  
This house belongs to your parents, and since your father's dead, it would appear the only way you'll get "owner's rights" is for her to put you on the deed (she may be elderly, but 79 doesn't mean she's incompetent). I don't know why you haven't talked to her about this - it's her house and for all you know, she may have other plans for the lot, like selling it (perhaps to your sister?) - and that's her right to do so. And what makes you think your sister won't be interested in the property - you may be right that she'll keep living in NYC, but I suspect you haven't spoken to her about this either.

You don't say what sort of disability you have - I'm thinking SSI - and one way you qualify is not having much in the way of assets or income to support yourself (that's why you're on disability). If your mother puts you on the deed, that will be counted as an asset, which will either reduce what you get in benefits or get kicked off altogether. And if you're planning on building a house in the community, where, pray, will THAT money come from - and why aren't you using it to support yourself now? It sounds harsh, but when people get benefits like SSI or Medicaid, it's supposed to mean they have little else in the way of income.

You get "owner's rights" when you become a bonafide owner, so unless you're planning to win the lottery to take care of all this, you need to talk to your mother and sister about all this. Whatever your mother decides is her decision, so don't pout if they don't include you. It may be she'll put the house in trust and name you and your sister as beneficiaries, but you'll still have the issue of how that may affect your benefits. So forget about getting "owner's rights" on some sort of paperwork - after you speak with your family, all of you should talk to an attorney, probably some specializing in estate planning or disability, perhaps both, to see what can be done.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 7:29 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/07/2021 5:31 PM
So leave the handicap stuff out of it and what do you have?




Hi MP,

That is the mmost important part of the equation.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 7:39 PM  
"Thank you for sharing your personal story. It takes courage to share that in an on-line forum. I wish I had some ideas for you. I can understand not wanting to be on a property deed so as not to complicate your disability situation. You mentioned a sister that would possibly be on the property deed. If she were on the deed, she would have membership rights. Would she be willing to provide information to you about the HOA and keep you in the loop of what is going on. Could you then express your desires about voting on topics and voting on board members and all things HOA related. I know it is not ideal but perhaps would satisfy a bit of your desire to participate in the HOA through your sister. Sometimes circumstances leave us with a less than the desired involvement.

I personally am not involved in my HOA except to send my yearly dues. That is perfectly fine with me. I was sued by the HOA board several years ago and prefer to put that ugliness behind me and stay away. It is clearly a board that bickers and places emphasis on items that I see as nit picky but I applaud them for keeping the bills paid and keeping up on the maintenance of the common areas. Perhaps that would be enough involvement for you to have the home in the poconos that you wish for.

I just realized that my initials on this forum are BS. HA!"


Hi BS,

Thank you for the reply.

I have discussed this situation with my sister a few times. She is not the type of person to get involved in these types of things (HOA meetings, etc.). She is very lax with these sorts of things. I am not like that. I am more of a fighter. Besides, if she is 110 miles away in New York City, how would she know what was discussed at a HOA meeting in the Poconos?
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 7:43 PM  
"Powers of Attorney can be general (full POA) or limited (specific purposes). Whether a POA would work or not is hard to say."


Hi DK,

Thank you for informing me of that. I wasn't aware of that. That is a crucial piece of information.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 7:48 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/07/2021 5:59 PM
To the OP

Any chance you currently own property that your name is on. It may be possible that a "second" asset totaling more than $2000.00 or $3000.00 if married might violation government guidelines.




Hi MB,

No, I don't own any property with my name on it. I have been disabled since I was 22 years old. How would that be possible? I also rarely leave my home because of my illness.

I am not married, and I have never been married. Obviously, you are nor understanding the severity of my illness.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1614


06/07/2021 7:56 PM  
Posted By AugustO on 06/07/2021 7:48 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 06/07/2021 5:59 PM
To the OP

Any chance you currently own property that your name is on. It may be possible that a "second" asset totaling more than $2000.00 or $3000.00 if married might violation government guidelines.




Hi MB,

No, I don't own any property with my name on it. I have been disabled since I was 22 years old. How would that be possible? I also rarely leave my home because of my illness.

I am not married, and I have never been married. Obviously, you are nor understanding the severity of my illness.



OK...was just trying to help.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/07/2021 8:23 PM  
Posted By SheliaH on 06/07/2021 6:27 PM
This house belongs to your parents, and since your father's dead, it would appear the only way you'll get "owner's rights" is for her to put you on the deed (she may be elderly, but 79 doesn't mean she's incompetent). I don't know why you haven't talked to her about this - it's her house and for all you know, she may have other plans for the lot, like selling it (perhaps to your sister?) - and that's her right to do so. And what makes you think your sister won't be interested in the property - you may be right that she'll keep living in NYC, but I suspect you haven't spoken to her about this either.

You don't say what sort of disability you have - I'm thinking SSI - and one way you qualify is not having much in the way of assets or income to support yourself (that's why you're on disability). If your mother puts you on the deed, that will be counted as an asset, which will either reduce what you get in benefits or get kicked off altogether. And if you're planning on building a house in the community, where, pray, will THAT money come from - and why aren't you using it to support yourself now? It sounds harsh, but when people get benefits like SSI or Medicaid, it's supposed to mean they have little else in the way of income.

You get "owner's rights" when you become a bonafide owner, so unless you're planning to win the lottery to take care of all this, you need to talk to your mother and sister about all this. Whatever your mother decides is her decision, so don't pout if they don't include you. It may be she'll put the house in trust and name you and your sister as beneficiaries, but you'll still have the issue of how that may affect your benefits. So forget about getting "owner's rights" on some sort of paperwork - after you speak with your family, all of you should talk to an attorney, probably some specializing in estate planning or disability, perhaps both, to see what can be done.




Hi SH,

It isn't a house. It is an empty, undeveloped lot (with no house on it). My parents purchased this property back in 1972, when I was 4 years old. That was decades before I was stricken with my illness and became disabled.

Why are you assuming that I haven't discussed this issue with my mother? That is a reckless assumption on your part. I actually have discussed this issue with her 50 -100 times.

No, my mother doesn't have other plans for the lot. She hates the Poconos, and she could never live there. The same is true of my sister. They both hate the Poconos. I love it there. I hate New York City. I am not a "city person".

As I mentioned above, I have spoken to my sister about this issue a few times. That is another reckless assumption on your part.

Yes, I did disclose what sort of disability benefits I receive. I mentioned it above. Didn't you see it?

I don't have any money, assets, or income. As I stated numerous times, I have been disabled since I am 22 years old. If I had the money to build a house there in the past, don't you think I would have done so? Why do you think it is still an empty, undeveloped lot (with no house on it) for 49 years? I am miserable here in New York City. On the rare occasions that I leave my home (because of my illness), I literally want to vomit. That's how much I hate it here in New York City. Believe me, I would leave here in a heartbeat if I could.

When my mother passes on (which hopefully won't be for a long time, but I need to plan for the future), my sister will be able to afford to live here in New York City and maintian a home in the Poconos. Our plan is that my sister will sell her house here in New York City, and she will move into my mother's house here in New York City. And we will build a house in the Poconos, and I will live there. She and my niece will visit me occasionally and stay there too. I will live there 365 days a year because I love the Poconos, and my sister and niece will use it as a vacation home. What is so difficult to follow about this?

We don't have the money to build a house there now. But when my mother passes on, we will have the money (via my sister selling her current house and moving into my mother's house). Understand?

Besides, I have never been married, and I don't have any children. When I die, the house in the Poconos (which we haven't built yet) will be all hers (and my niece's) to keep as a vacation home.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4297


06/07/2021 8:54 PM  
So far, I don't really see what you bring to the table on this matter. I still say you can't get "owner's rights" on something you.don't.own. Apparently, the 50-100 conversations you've had with Mom haven't convinced her to sell the land to you or put you on the deed - if she wanted you and your sister to have it, she would have already done so. I don't know why the land is undeveloped after 49 years - why did your mother tell you (assuming you asked her?)

You say you don't have any money to build the house, but say your sister will sell her house and move into your mother's home. What's with this "we" - that money will be HERS to spend as she wishes, so I don't know where "we" is coming from. What will you do if she decides she doesn't want a vacation house on this lot? What will you do if your mother has to sell the land sooner than you think because she may want or need to move into a senior community, or assisted living or even a nursing home and needs the proceeds to help pay for that?

Even if a house is built, what do you plan to do to help maintain it? Utilities, property taxes, maintenance and homeowner association assessments are a thing - and you don't have any money, as you've said. Do you expect your sister to pay for all of this?

Oh, your liking or disliking New York City is irrelevant to this subject - there are other towns in New York State you could consider moving to, and there may be apartments or rental homes in the Poconos that are better suited for your budget.

Seems to me you're making a lot of assumptions about all of this, so before you start asking about "owner's rights" on property that isn't yours, you need to keep talking to the person who does (Mom) and the other heir to said property (your sister).
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10595


06/07/2021 9:04 PM  
We did not have any of that information. You too are ASSUMMING we here know all the details. We don't. We don't know your relationship with your family. We don't know would be able to build a house on an empty lot if on disability. We did not know whom would have been building one. Now that we have more details we can then stop assuming things.

My cousin has been handicap since birth. He walks in a walker and has speech deficiencies. He holds a job and lives with a roommate. Does not live near his family. He does just fine. So I don't necessarily view "handicap" people as not being "handy capable". I do my best to be inclusive and not treat them like their handicap. It's disrespectful to them as a person.

I watch a Youtube channel called "Squirmy and Grubs". It is a married couple whom the wife is a "normal" person and her husband is handicapped. He is wheelchair bound and his body is very small. I mention this because they recently bought a house. They are sharing it with their in-laws. The couple covers in their videos the world of being handicapped. They talk about handicap rules and laws sometimes. Especially since Shane has many medical issues. Just wanted to pass this along to share a different perspective of the handicap world. I have found it helpful in learning a few things myself.

As for the house, really need to talk to a disability lawyer whom may be able to direct you. I still don't see why can't have your name on the deed. However, if you don't have the money that most likely is the biggest issue here.

Former HOA President
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/08/2021 6:12 AM  
"I am more of a fighter. Besides, if she is 110 miles away in New York City, how would she know what was discussed at a HOA meeting in the Poconos?"

She could request meeting minutes and attend meetings when possible when she is there to visit her "vacation home." But if she is not willing to do that ...

It sounds like exploring the Power of Attorney may be worthwhile. I understand lawyers are expensive. It cost me well over $10,000 to defend a lawsuit my HOA filed against me. But I doubt that a consultation about Power of Attorney would be even close to that even in New York City.

You certainly do have some obstacles in front of you in regards to building that home in the Poconos if you are determined to have those ownership rights. But I wish you luck in achieving that goal.

CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2607


06/08/2021 6:28 AM  
You need an attorney or three. Period. WAY too much going on here, as well as extraneous stuff appearing to complicate things.

But I'm pretty comfortable saying that you get "owner's rights" by being an owner - ie, your name on the deed. How that happens will be up to your attorney(s) to figure out.
BobD4
(up north)

Posts:957


06/08/2021 10:16 AM  
Posted By AugustO PENN

: “How do I get "owner's rights"?
. . . . . . According to this community's By-Laws, there is only one way to become a "member" of this community's community association and get "owner's rights" in this community. You must list your name on a deed to a piece of property (or home) in this community.

By "owner's rights", I am referring to the right to vote for BOD members in this community, the right to attend community meetings in the clubhouse, the right to bring issues and/or questions to the BOD, etc. If your name isn't listed on the deed, you are not allowed to vote or attend community meetings in the clubhouse.
. . . I have a relative (a cousin) who deals with these types of issues. She is in the medical profession. She works with disabled people and handles cases for them (government paperwork, etc.). In the past, she has told me horror stories about how disabled people purchased homes that were low-to-medium value at the time of purchase. Then, the real estate market heated up, and the value of these homes skyrocketed. Consequently, it put those people over the threshold for government limitations on assets. And these people literally lost their disability benefits and/or their health insurance. I don't want that to happen to me.

In my mind, the safe thing to do is not to list my name on the deed at all. . . .

BancsS (Iowa) ” . . . . The pseudo HOA I live in also requires deeded ownership to vote and attend the annual HOA meetings. I say pseudo because it is not your typical HOA in that the covenants expired but there is still common property to maintain. . . .”

Sheila H Indiana : “. . . What will you do if your mother has to sell the land sooner than you think because she may want or need to move into a senior community, or assisted living or even a nursing home and needs the proceeds to help pay for that ? . . .
Even if a house is built, what do you plan to do to help maintain it? Utilities, property taxes, maintenance and homeowner association assessments are a thing - and you don't have any money, as you've said. Do you expect your sister to pay for all of this?
. . .there are other towns in New York State you could consider moving to, and there may be apartments or rental homes in the Poconos that are better suited for your budget. ”

CathyA3 (Ohio) : “ . . . You need an attorney or three. Period. WAY too much going on here, as well as extraneous stuff appearing to complicate things. . .”




Neighbour :

In addition to the good advice above, let me VERY respectfully urge several things to you :

1- PROXY USAGE if – IF - supported within the property’ CURRENT governance documents on title.

Unless you yourself have legal or paralegal skillsets you NEED TO HAVE DETERMINED FOR YOU whether those CURRENT documents ( & Pennsylvania statutes & jurisprudence ) support an owner on title, giving a valid formal PROXY authority to exercise such owner’s rights including at owners association meetings & voting.

( I happen myself to live in a jurisdiction where “proxying as of right” is a lawful right available to certain communities’ owners If compliant with such law & site-specific governance. If lawful to delegate to a non-owner, proxies be expressed ongoing generally , meeting votes specific, issue specific etc . . ).

BUT if the local association & its documents can lawfully bar - from an in-person Owners Meeting, even some non-owner proxy-donees / proxy-empowered attendors - then proxying would NOT literally get you the face –to - face interactions you seem to want.

Respectfully you should also consider a bitter comment about proxy misuse or disputes by a longtime contributor at a different Forum : “ Aren’t proxies great ! No eyes and no ears ”

2 WHETHER your POCONOS dream is practical for you ?

I don’t want kill anybody’s dream.

But I provide this VERY respectfully after moving 16 years ago into a non-urban cross-covenanted community on a premium lake 70 miles from any major city. My wife & I were both fit and in our early 60’s. Between retirements I had also managed 650 urban condo units & later an income- geared rental community.

So despite knowing where lotsa bodies CAN be buried, my governancer-friendly viewpoint ( after the above ) has reversed almost 120 degrees. Note that I myself was never directly targetted , so my attitude wasn’t due to being a disputant. Nor fined nor shunned. . . .
These local scenarios can be heaven or hell with rampant stubborn ignorance.

Respectfully, If you unfortunately run afoul of this, I recommend you watch out, especially if you are living alone onsite with disabilities.

At the very least it MAY take your views YEARS to be accepted by the folks already living there for years.

For example - whose legal skillsets might come from : “ I know corporation law because my husband & I used to own a car dealership ! “ ( an actual quote to corroborate a voodoo legal mis-explanation . )

2a - PHYSICAL IMPLICATIONS

I haven’t found living costs any lower than any city I have lived in. Usually less ratial options.

AND how are you at manual labour IF it can’t be hired locally ? Had a single city lawnmower ; now : 10 small engines & a John Deere ). Comfortable with a propane generator ? Will you need to operate a chainsaw, even sporadically during some sorta emergency ?

Some non-urban communities lack the critical mass for some pretty crucial stuff you can get in NYC. Think maybe : slow satellite internet & cellphone service. Maybe no land cable much less fibre optics etc .

THE MEDICAL WAIT-LIST There may ? be a long wait-list for family physician ( have been on one since 2013 ). Will your challenges be served by a small local hospital or walk-in clinic ?

3 - Bottom line : right now your family group has 2 residences in a major city. Will you be better off living in the above more than a hundred miles from your sister ? Do you drive a car ?


BobD4
(up north)

Posts:957


06/08/2021 10:18 AM  
correction : "retail" options
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2607


06/08/2021 11:46 AM  
In addition to the good advice above, including getting your own attorneys involved, it would make sense for your mother to work with an attorney or other adviser specializing in elder care and estate planning. As with governmental benefit programs, mistakes can be very costly. Right now an undeveloped lot is an expense for her (taxes and HOA fees) and provides no benefit - and if fact, judging from a lot of the horror stories I've heard, it can be a source of family conflict and may also disqualify her from receiving benefits of her own name. (In a number of states, offspring can't just dump a destitute parent onto the state - the state will come after the children for support.)

Your mother didn't ask me, but she needs to have someone acting in her best interests. In her position I would be thinking about either selling the lot or moving it and my other assets into a trust of some sort, with a trustee or two who have a fiduciary duty to your mother alone. But there are other options available, and she should explore them with someone who's an expert.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/09/2021 8:32 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 06/07/2021 8:54 PM
So far, I don't really see what you bring to the table on this matter. I still say you can't get "owner's rights" on something you.don't.own. Apparently, the 50-100 conversations you've had with Mom haven't convinced her to sell the land to you or put you on the deed - if she wanted you and your sister to have it, she would have already done so. I don't know why the land is undeveloped after 49 years - why did your mother tell you (assuming you asked her?)

You say you don't have any money to build the house, but say your sister will sell her house and move into your mother's home. What's with this "we" - that money will be HERS to spend as she wishes, so I don't know where "we" is coming from. What will you do if she decides she doesn't want a vacation house on this lot? What will you do if your mother has to sell the land sooner than you think because she may want or need to move into a senior community, or assisted living or even a nursing home and needs the proceeds to help pay for that?

Even if a house is built, what do you plan to do to help maintain it? Utilities, property taxes, maintenance and homeowner association assessments are a thing - and you don't have any money, as you've said. Do you expect your sister to pay for all of this?

Oh, your liking or disliking New York City is irrelevant to this subject - there are other towns in New York State you could consider moving to, and there may be apartments or rental homes in the Poconos that are better suited for your budget.

Seems to me you're making a lot of assumptions about all of this, so before you start asking about "owner's rights" on property that isn't yours, you need to keep talking to the person who does (Mom) and the other heir to said property (your sister).




Hi SH,

What I can bring to the table is irrelevant. Why would I want my mother to sell the land or put me on the deed? That would be counter-productive, wouldn't it? The land is still undeveloped after 49 years because my family can't afford to build on it right now.

Yes, my sister will be paying for the house. The "we" part comes into the equation regarding the designing of the house. Since I am the one who is going to be living there 365 days a year (not my sister), and since I am disabled, I am going to have some (or significant?) input regarding the design of the house. That's where the "we" comes in.

My sister and I hope that my mother doesn't have to move into assisted living or a nursing home, but that, of course, is in the back of our minds.

Regarding property taxes, community dues, utilities, etc., I have already discussed this with my sister a few times. That issue has been addressed. After all, it will legally be her house (her name will be on the deed). She will still legally own it after I am dead.

Why would I want to live in an apartment in the Poconos? If I wanted to live in an apartment, I would stay right here in New York City. That defeats the whole purpose of moving to the Poconos, doesn't it? I don't like "high density housing". That's why I have been wanting to leave New York City for my entire life.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/09/2021 8:55 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/07/2021 9:04 PM
We did not have any of that information. You too are ASSUMMING we here know all the details. We don't. We don't know your relationship with your family. We don't know would be able to build a house on an empty lot if on disability. We did not know whom would have been building one. Now that we have more details we can then stop assuming things.

My cousin has been handicap since birth. He walks in a walker and has speech deficiencies. He holds a job and lives with a roommate. Does not live near his family. He does just fine. So I don't necessarily view "handicap" people as not being "handy capable". I do my best to be inclusive and not treat them like their handicap. It's disrespectful to them as a person.

I watch a Youtube channel called "Squirmy and Grubs". It is a married couple whom the wife is a "normal" person and her husband is handicapped. He is wheelchair bound and his body is very small. I mention this because they recently bought a house. They are sharing it with their in-laws. The couple covers in their videos the world of being handicapped. They talk about handicap rules and laws sometimes. Especially since Shane has many medical issues. Just wanted to pass this along to share a different perspective of the handicap world. I have found it helpful in learning a few things myself.

As for the house, really need to talk to a disability lawyer whom may be able to direct you. I still don't see why can't have your name on the deed. However, if you don't have the money that most likely is the biggest issue here.




Hi MP,

People who have physical disabilities (amputees, people in wheelchairs, etc.) are completely different from people who have systemic illnesses/infections that affect every organ in the human body (which is what I have). My disabilities are primarily not physical. My most severe and most disabling symptoms are inflammation (specifically inflammation of the lungs, which causes shortness of breath and difficulty breathing) and neurological symptoms (encephalitis, meningitis, lightheadedness, dizziness, etc.).

I have a VERY severe case of chronic Lyme disease for 31 years. I have one of the worst documented cases of chronic Lyme disease in a human being. In my case, the Lyme organism attacked my central nervous system (my brain), which causes encephalitis, meningitis, etc. That's why they often refer to it as "Lyme encephalitis" or "Lyme brain", because of what Lyme disease does to your brain. I have been living with symptoms of Lyme encephalitis every single day for 31 years. It is relentless. In 31 years, there hasn't been one day that I am symptom-free.

I took massive doses (elephant doses) of antibiotics every single day for 8 years. These were not human doses. I was on IV antibiotics 4 different times (IV Rocephin twice, and IV Claforan twice). I was on Suprax every day for a few years and doxycycline every day for a few years. The Suprax helped me the most. I also got Bicillin shots on my butt once a week for 18 months. Of course, that was painful. I have taken enough antibiotics to kill an elephant. I am literally a "guinea pig". There haven't been too many human beings who have received as much antibiotics as I have.

By the way, yesterday was a very bad day for me. I was in bed for the entire day. That's why I didn't post here yesterday.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10595


06/09/2021 8:57 AM  
You basically are going to be living in an apartment even with the house built. You don't own it. So your still going to be a tenant.

Going to be a bit honest here and will get attacked for it. However, think it needs to be pointed out. It will make life easier to recognize the situation for what it is.

The way I read this is that your handicapped and with limited resources except for what others are willing to provide to you. You want something and are very much focused on it. I am sure your even at the point where you think you "deserve" it. Who is to argue? Unfortunately, the hard truth is that what you want isn't what others want. It is what they want that is going to get done. So I don't expect your mother to hand over that property to you or your sister any times soon. I even expect her to maybe even sell it. Your sister is not obligated to build anything on it as well. She may even decide to sell it. It may not hold much value to her either if she hasn't tried to do anything about it yet. Plus her name on the deed she still has the HOA rights ultimately. Does not mean you can't participate in the HOA. She's just going to have the voting power.

Real advice here... If you so want to get out of New York city, then make it happen as if you were moving to the Poconos. The Pocono's at this point is going to be a fantasy versus reality. If your so willing to take on the Poconos then why are your not willing to take on that now? Is it because you think it's more a "free" home to you?

So I say if your not willing to move unless it's on the dime of the others in your life, then you make the bed you lie in...

Former HOA President
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/09/2021 8:59 AM  
Posted By BancsS on 06/08/2021 6:12 AM
"I am more of a fighter. Besides, if she is 110 miles away in New York City, how would she know what was discussed at a HOA meeting in the Poconos?"

She could request meeting minutes and attend meetings when possible when she is there to visit her "vacation home." But if she is not willing to do that ...

It sounds like exploring the Power of Attorney may be worthwhile. I understand lawyers are expensive. It cost me well over $10,000 to defend a lawsuit my HOA filed against me. But I doubt that a consultation about Power of Attorney would be even close to that even in New York City.

You certainly do have some obstacles in front of you in regards to building that home in the Poconos if you are determined to have those ownership rights. But I wish you luck in achieving that goal.





Hi BS,

Thank you for all of your posts here. I can see that you are a vey nice and caring person.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/09/2021 9:19 AM  
Posted By BobD4 on 06/08/2021 10:16 AM
Posted By AugustO PENN

: “How do I get "owner's rights"?
. . . . . . According to this community's By-Laws, there is only one way to become a "member" of this community's community association and get "owner's rights" in this community. You must list your name on a deed to a piece of property (or home) in this community.

By "owner's rights", I am referring to the right to vote for BOD members in this community, the right to attend community meetings in the clubhouse, the right to bring issues and/or questions to the BOD, etc. If your name isn't listed on the deed, you are not allowed to vote or attend community meetings in the clubhouse.
. . . I have a relative (a cousin) who deals with these types of issues. She is in the medical profession. She works with disabled people and handles cases for them (government paperwork, etc.). In the past, she has told me horror stories about how disabled people purchased homes that were low-to-medium value at the time of purchase. Then, the real estate market heated up, and the value of these homes skyrocketed. Consequently, it put those people over the threshold for government limitations on assets. And these people literally lost their disability benefits and/or their health insurance. I don't want that to happen to me.

In my mind, the safe thing to do is not to list my name on the deed at all. . . .

BancsS (Iowa) ” . . . . The pseudo HOA I live in also requires deeded ownership to vote and attend the annual HOA meetings. I say pseudo because it is not your typical HOA in that the covenants expired but there is still common property to maintain. . . .”

Sheila H Indiana : “. . . What will you do if your mother has to sell the land sooner than you think because she may want or need to move into a senior community, or assisted living or even a nursing home and needs the proceeds to help pay for that ? . . .
Even if a house is built, what do you plan to do to help maintain it? Utilities, property taxes, maintenance and homeowner association assessments are a thing - and you don't have any money, as you've said. Do you expect your sister to pay for all of this?
. . .there are other towns in New York State you could consider moving to, and there may be apartments or rental homes in the Poconos that are better suited for your budget. ”

CathyA3 (Ohio) : “ . . . You need an attorney or three. Period. WAY too much going on here, as well as extraneous stuff appearing to complicate things. . .”




Neighbour :

In addition to the good advice above, let me VERY respectfully urge several things to you :

1- PROXY USAGE if – IF - supported within the property’ CURRENT governance documents on title.

Unless you yourself have legal or paralegal skillsets you NEED TO HAVE DETERMINED FOR YOU whether those CURRENT documents ( & Pennsylvania statutes & jurisprudence ) support an owner on title, giving a valid formal PROXY authority to exercise such owner’s rights including at owners association meetings & voting.

( I happen myself to live in a jurisdiction where “proxying as of right” is a lawful right available to certain communities’ owners If compliant with such law & site-specific governance. If lawful to delegate to a non-owner, proxies be expressed ongoing generally , meeting votes specific, issue specific etc . . ).

BUT if the local association & its documents can lawfully bar - from an in-person Owners Meeting, even some non-owner proxy-donees / proxy-empowered attendors - then proxying would NOT literally get you the face –to - face interactions you seem to want.

Respectfully you should also consider a bitter comment about proxy misuse or disputes by a longtime contributor at a different Forum : “ Aren’t proxies great ! No eyes and no ears ”

2 WHETHER your POCONOS dream is practical for you ?

I don’t want kill anybody’s dream.

But I provide this VERY respectfully after moving 16 years ago into a non-urban cross-covenanted community on a premium lake 70 miles from any major city. My wife & I were both fit and in our early 60’s. Between retirements I had also managed 650 urban condo units & later an income- geared rental community.

So despite knowing where lotsa bodies CAN be buried, my governancer-friendly viewpoint ( after the above ) has reversed almost 120 degrees. Note that I myself was never directly targetted , so my attitude wasn’t due to being a disputant. Nor fined nor shunned. . . .
These local scenarios can be heaven or hell with rampant stubborn ignorance.

Respectfully, If you unfortunately run afoul of this, I recommend you watch out, especially if you are living alone onsite with disabilities.

At the very least it MAY take your views YEARS to be accepted by the folks already living there for years.

For example - whose legal skillsets might come from : “ I know corporation law because my husband & I used to own a car dealership ! “ ( an actual quote to corroborate a voodoo legal mis-explanation . )

2a - PHYSICAL IMPLICATIONS

I haven’t found living costs any lower than any city I have lived in. Usually less ratial options.

AND how are you at manual labour IF it can’t be hired locally ? Had a single city lawnmower ; now : 10 small engines & a John Deere ). Comfortable with a propane generator ? Will you need to operate a chainsaw, even sporadically during some sorta emergency ?

Some non-urban communities lack the critical mass for some pretty crucial stuff you can get in NYC. Think maybe : slow satellite internet & cellphone service. Maybe no land cable much less fibre optics etc .

THE MEDICAL WAIT-LIST There may ? be a long wait-list for family physician ( have been on one since 2013 ). Will your challenges be served by a small local hospital or walk-in clinic ?

3 - Bottom line : right now your family group has 2 residences in a major city. Will you be better off living in the above more than a hundred miles from your sister ? Do you drive a car ?






Hi BD,

Thank you for the informative post.

Yes, I have considered most, if not all, of these things.

Most of the people (about 80-90% of them) who live in this community in the Poconos are transplants from New York City anyway. In some ways, that is good. And, in some ways, that is bad. My family and I have participated in this community's various social media sites in the past. As expected, some people accepted me, and some didn't. Regarding the ones who don't like me, the fact that I am from New York City has nothing to do with them not liking me, because they are transplants from New York City themselves. It has more to do with my political views. I am not "radicalized" as they are. I am a sane, rational, and logically-thinking human being. I am also extremely intelligent and highly educated. Some people don't like that. My college degrees are in science, and some people are "anti-science". Natuarally, I have friction with these people.

This community in the Poconos has electric heat. Some people there use propane too, but it isn't necessary. I was also seriously thinking of putting solar panels (with built-in heaters) on the roof of that house so that I will have electricity when the power goes out (instead of using a generator).
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/09/2021 10:42 AM  
Sheila and Melissa seem to disregard the number of times that AugustO has spoken to her (I assume AugustO is a female so I apologize if not) mother and her sister about the lot and house and its ownership. It doesn't appear to me that AugustO is trying to take advantage of either one them. It seems that they are both well aware of AugustO's desire to move out of New York City and on to a peaceful life in the Poconos. The lot in the Poconos seems like a logical choice since all of the parties involved are on board with the plan. I was in New York City once and although I enjoyed the trip, the noise and traffic were particularly eye opening. The largest city that I have ever lived in had a population of 20,000. I have a family that helps each other out even if it means going out on a limb for one another. I own a house in another state that I rent to my oldest son. It has worked out beautifully. He deposits the rent into my checking account twice a month. I was well aware of the legal implications of this arrangement. That being said there are tax implications that I was not aware of so AugustO, you will want to research those as well if you have not already done so. It will have an impact on your sister's taxes.

And Sheila, my mother and mother-in-law received assistance from a government program while they resided in a nursing home. NO, I DID NOT DUMP my responsibilities onto the state. My mother-in-law spent all of her savings on her care prior to her seeking assistance. My mother received benefits since she was a veteran of World War Two. Do you have any idea what it costs for nursing home care? My husband and I would have had to pay out $120,000 a year to pay for it.

I understand that I am off topic here but some of what has been posted struck a nerve. I thought this forum was about HOA issues not posters making assumptions about what posters seeking advice intentions are.

Onward.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10595


06/09/2021 11:04 AM  
Let me make this clear. I am NOT saying that they are trying to take "advantage" of their mother or sister in any way. What I am saying is that I believe this is one of those cases of an "emotional sucker". Everyone knows one or has one in their own family. It's something I call "I got a bone in my leg so I can't.... fill in the blanks".

They always are pulling on the emotional strings. A few posts so far have tried to do that. Those of us whom have had the "emotional sucker" experience can read a bit more between the lines. Overall I think the mother and sister see it too. They are no obligation to fulfill the OP's wishes just because the OP wants it. They most likely see the signs of "free loader". I am only going there because they stated that other handicap people weren't on the same level as their problems...

I get migraines, stomach cramps, pain all over my body, acid reflux, and mood swings. Will you build me a house?

Former HOA President
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/09/2021 12:17 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/09/2021 11:04 AM
Let me make this clear. I am NOT saying that they are trying to take "advantage" of their mother or sister in any way. What I am saying is that I believe this is one of those cases of an "emotional sucker". Everyone knows one or has one in their own family. It's something I call "I got a bone in my leg so I can't.... fill in the blanks".

They always are pulling on the emotional strings. A few posts so far have tried to do that. Those of us whom have had the "emotional sucker" experience can read a bit more between the lines. Overall I think the mother and sister see it too. They are no obligation to fulfill the OP's wishes just because the OP wants it. They most likely see the signs of "free loader". I am only going there because they stated that other handicap people weren't on the same level as their problems...

I get migraines, stomach cramps, pain all over my body, acid reflux, and mood swings. Will you build me a house?



So you can determine someone is an "emotional sucker" after 15 posts on an online HOA forum? And you know that AugustO's sister and mother see her or him as a "free loader." On the other hand, it is pretty easy to figure what type of person you are after thousands of posts on an on-line HOA forum.

I'm pretty certain Augie would have recommended you for his HOATalk Supreme Court if he thought your advise was worthy of that position.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10595


06/09/2021 12:25 PM  
Mark my words... You will fall for this "sucker"... All signs pointing that direction... Don't worry we have all been there, done that, and learned... Believe me it will come out shortly...

Former HOA President
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2607


06/09/2021 12:28 PM  
I think the problems many are having with this is that the original question is not really an HOA question, and this is a forum to answer HOA questions.

Sorting out the issues with owning HOA property while living out-of-town are really pretty straight-forward.

However, the original question is "how to do I get owner's rights" when I'm not an owner. That's a legal question, and the fact that the property is in an HOA is pretty much irrelevant as far as I can tell. There are a bunch of complicating factors on top of it. Since most of us here aren't lawyers, we can't begin to answer this other than to suggest finding a lawyer, which was my original answer.

BobD4
(up north)

Posts:957


06/09/2021 12:33 PM  
Posted By AugustO - How do I get "owner's rights"?
. . . According to this community's By-Laws, there is only one way to become a "member" of this community's community association and get "owner's rights" in this community. You must list your name on a deed to a piece of property (or home) in this community.

By "owner's rights", I am referring to the right to vote for BOD members in this community, the right to attend community meetings in the clubhouse, the right to bring issues and/or questions to the BOD, etc. If your name isn't listed on the deed, you are not allowed to vote or attend community meetings in the clubhouse.

. . . . I literally won't be allowed to vote, attend community meetings, etc.

Is there some type of document that I can have drafted to transfer "owner's rights" to me (despite the fact that my name will not be listed on the deed)? Can I type this document myself and have it notarized ?

Would that be sufficient? Would it have to be something more formal than that? Would I need to deal with a lawyer ? Since I am disabled, I am on limited income. I really can't afford to pay a lawyer for this document. Thank you in advance for any assistance.





Neighbour :

From an area where late-diagnosed Lyme disease has also wreaked some terrible life-altering tragedies, I hear your situation.

Also that massive dosing of anti-biotics can have life-altering effects ( my own wife's outcome of that may even preclude her from daring to take a COVID-19 vax )

1 - Looking strictly at PROPERTY RIGHTS, receiving a LEASEHOLD interest would give you a right to enjoy possession. Note that some jurisdictions tolerate a range of limits by covenant on short-durations, percentage of covenanted properties being leased, etc.

2 - About PROXIED exercise of a legal owner's governance-decision making, you may need professional legal or paralegal expertise to sort out anything told to you by the sorta mentality that sometimes gets to speak for owners associations. Many are riddled with incompetence & voodoo mis-beliefs. May not have even read the site-specific documents much less the legislation.

Respectfully you would well-served to start with clearly determining which Pennsylvania statutes are applicable to the local association.

AND also worth checking IF the cross-covenants on title are subject to what many Americans know as "MRTA" ( marketable record title ). ( You happen to be living next door to a jurisdiction with the harshest conceivable covenant-expiry law, and it's great. The Brits don't have this nor know anything about it. Thank the Gods . )

PROXYING NON-OWNERS : Correctly or not I have favoured respecting the prerogative of any owner / owners of record to grant a proxy to ANYONE. That's instead of being forced to grant proxy to a Board of Directors Secretary etc

This admittedly gets uneasy when contract-trollers - without any family connections nor onsite residency - turn up at urban AGMs. And then seek Board seats to get their hands onto multi- million dollar contracts; not just happening at Las Vegas ( the Benzer gang etc )

Anyway, good luck & you're welcome for the advice ( which is NOT legal advice ).



SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:4297


06/09/2021 2:54 PM  
No, I haven't forgotten the number of times AugustO has spoken to his or her mother, but as Melissa noted and as I said earlier, that hasn't gotten anywhere. Otherwise, what's the reason for the post? This started with "how do I get owners rights on property I don't own?". No matter what you or I say, that doesn't happen unless and until you own said property. It may be the voting right can be transferred, as Bob noted, but it would appear AugustO doesn't want to go that route. Don't I is why - all the questions could be answered and the family could then make an informed decision.

Rights come with responsibility - if the assessments aren't paid by someone, the voting rights and other privileges that come with being a HOA member will be suspended until the account is bought current. If certain bills like the mortgage or property taxes aren't paid, the house can be lost that way and then where will AugustO be? Especially since he/she doesn't have any money. And why would anyone even grant those right to someone who is basically a tenant?

He/she said right now no one can afford to even build this house, so what's the point of this entire conversation? We don't know when mom will pass on - hell, mom AND sis may check out before AugustO. That may take care of getting the land but then there's the matter of building the house. Don't think the niece will go along at that point - she may say "but me out and you can do what you want" where will that money come from? If you can buy the land you still have a house to build, but...August says there's no mney

I'm sorry, but I agree with Melissa - it doesn't matter what AugustO wants regarding this property - the mother and sister don't seem to be on board with this and that's why AugustO is trying to get suggestions from the internet. August, If you want to make this happen, quit trying to end run around this. Suggest to mom and Sis that you meet with an attorney and bring the documents with you so the attorney can do some research. REmember, this is mom's decision - if she wants to sell it or put it in trust for you and your sister or even donate it,that's her business. You might even pay the consultation fee - that'll show how invested you really are.

She or He who has the gold rules and right now you don't have any say in anything about thi because you haven't put your resources into this. That the thing with home ownership or anything else you own - when you took the time and trouble to get said property, you look at it differently, rather than try to dictate or assume people will do what you want regarding property you don't own in the first place

By the way, Blanc, your situation with your mother is exactly what I'm going through with my own. You know the drill - government programs like Medicaid are supposed to be the layer of last resort, so by the time you apply, it's expected that virtually all your assets are gone because you used it to pay for your care. Considering how much homeownership costs, I'm not sure AugustO can do it all on a disability check (note I'm talking about the money, not the disability, because he/she will have to share in the expenses.)It's not a good idea to add more stress to one's life when it isn't necessary.

BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/09/2021 5:10 PM  
Posted By AugustO on 06/09/2021 8:59 AM
Posted By BancsS on 06/08/2021 6:12 AM
"I am more of a fighter. Besides, if she is 110 miles away in New York City, how would she know what was discussed at a HOA meeting in the Poconos?"

She could request meeting minutes and attend meetings when possible when she is there to visit her "vacation home." But if she is not willing to do that ...

It sounds like exploring the Power of Attorney may be worthwhile. I understand lawyers are expensive. It cost me well over $10,000 to defend a lawsuit my HOA filed against me. But I doubt that a consultation about Power of Attorney would be even close to that even in New York City.

You certainly do have some obstacles in front of you in regards to building that home in the Poconos if you are determined to have those ownership rights. But I wish you luck in achieving that goal.





Hi BS,

Thank you for all of your posts here. I can see that you are a vey nice and caring person.



Thank you. I have a lot of empathy for people going through some very serious health matters. I was in a horrific car accident at the age of 20. I had multiple broken bones, surgeries, rehab, etc. It left me with a lifetime of pain and severe arthritis.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/09/2021 5:17 PM  
Posted By BancsS on 06/09/2021 10:42 AM
Sheila and Melissa seem to disregard the number of times that AugustO has spoken to her (I assume AugustO is a female so I apologize if not) mother and her sister about the lot and house and its ownership. It doesn't appear to me that AugustO is trying to take advantage of either one them. It seems that they are both well aware of AugustO's desire to move out of New York City and on to a peaceful life in the Poconos. The lot in the Poconos seems like a logical choice since all of the parties involved are on board with the plan. I was in New York City once and although I enjoyed the trip, the noise and traffic were particularly eye opening. The largest city that I have ever lived in had a population of 20,000. I have a family that helps each other out even if it means going out on a limb for one another. I own a house in another state that I rent to my oldest son. It has worked out beautifully. He deposits the rent into my checking account twice a month. I was well aware of the legal implications of this arrangement. That being said there are tax implications that I was not aware of so AugustO, you will want to research those as well if you have not already done so. It will have an impact on your sister's taxes.

And Sheila, my mother and mother-in-law received assistance from a government program while they resided in a nursing home. NO, I DID NOT DUMP my responsibilities onto the state. My mother-in-law spent all of her savings on her care prior to her seeking assistance. My mother received benefits since she was a veteran of World War Two. Do you have any idea what it costs for nursing home care? My husband and I would have had to pay out $120,000 a year to pay for it.

I understand that I am off topic here but some of what has been posted struck a nerve. I thought this forum was about HOA issues not posters making assumptions about what posters seeking advice intentions are.

Onward.





Hi BS,


Thank you again for an excellent post.

I am male, not female. However, there is no need to apologize. Gender isn't important to me. I am a progressively-thinking person. I really don't care about gender.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/09/2021 5:21 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/09/2021 11:04 AM
Let me make this clear. I am NOT saying that they are trying to take "advantage" of their mother or sister in any way. What I am saying is that I believe this is one of those cases of an "emotional sucker". Everyone knows one or has one in their own family. It's something I call "I got a bone in my leg so I can't.... fill in the blanks".

They always are pulling on the emotional strings. A few posts so far have tried to do that. Those of us whom have had the "emotional sucker" experience can read a bit more between the lines. Overall I think the mother and sister see it too. They are no obligation to fulfill the OP's wishes just because the OP wants it. They most likely see the signs of "free loader". I am only going there because they stated that other handicap people weren't on the same level as their problems...

I get migraines, stomach cramps, pain all over my body, acid reflux, and mood swings. Will you build me a house?




Hi MP,

I am none of the things that you claim I am.

Regarding your medical symptoms, I wish those were my only problems.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/09/2021 5:25 PM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 06/09/2021 12:28 PM
I think the problems many are having with this is that the original question is not really an HOA question, and this is a forum to answer HOA questions.

Sorting out the issues with owning HOA property while living out-of-town are really pretty straight-forward.

However, the original question is "how to do I get owner's rights" when I'm not an owner. That's a legal question, and the fact that the property is in an HOA is pretty much irrelevant as far as I can tell. There are a bunch of complicating factors on top of it. Since most of us here aren't lawyers, we can't begin to answer this other than to suggest finding a lawyer, which was my original answer.





Hi CA,

I agree with you somewhat. I just thought that maybe there was someone in America who is on my situation, and maybe that person could offer me advice.
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/09/2021 5:31 PM  
Posted By SheliaH on 06/09/2021 2:54 PM
No, I haven't forgotten the number of times AugustO has spoken to his or her mother, but as Melissa noted and as I said earlier, that hasn't gotten anywhere. Otherwise, what's the reason for the post? This started with "how do I get owners rights on property I don't own?". No matter what you or I say, that doesn't happen unless and until you own said property. It may be the voting right can be transferred, as Bob noted, but it would appear AugustO doesn't want to go that route. Don't I is why - all the questions could be answered and the family could then make an informed decision.

Rights come with responsibility - if the assessments aren't paid by someone, the voting rights and other privileges that come with being a HOA member will be suspended until the account is bought current. If certain bills like the mortgage or property taxes aren't paid, the house can be lost that way and then where will AugustO be? Especially since he/she doesn't have any money. And why would anyone even grant those right to someone who is basically a tenant?

He/she said right now no one can afford to even build this house, so what's the point of this entire conversation? We don't know when mom will pass on - hell, mom AND sis may check out before AugustO. That may take care of getting the land but then there's the matter of building the house. Don't think the niece will go along at that point - she may say "but me out and you can do what you want" where will that money come from? If you can buy the land you still have a house to build, but...August says there's no mney

I'm sorry, but I agree with Melissa - it doesn't matter what AugustO wants regarding this property - the mother and sister don't seem to be on board with this and that's why AugustO is trying to get suggestions from the internet. August, If you want to make this happen, quit trying to end run around this. Suggest to mom and Sis that you meet with an attorney and bring the documents with you so the attorney can do some research. REmember, this is mom's decision - if she wants to sell it or put it in trust for you and your sister or even donate it,that's her business. You might even pay the consultation fee - that'll show how invested you really are.

She or He who has the gold rules and right now you don't have any say in anything about thi because you haven't put your resources into this. That the thing with home ownership or anything else you own - when you took the time and trouble to get said property, you look at it differently, rather than try to dictate or assume people will do what you want regarding property you don't own in the first place

By the way, Blanc, your situation with your mother is exactly what I'm going through with my own. You know the drill - government programs like Medicaid are supposed to be the layer of last resort, so by the time you apply, it's expected that virtually all your assets are gone because you used it to pay for your care. Considering how much homeownership costs, I'm not sure AugustO can do it all on a disability check (note I'm talking about the money, not the disability, because he/she will have to share in the expenses.)It's not a good idea to add more stress to one's life when it isn't necessary.




None of us knows how AugustO's family feels about the lot and house except what AugustO has posted. I formed an opinion on what I read into the post and made a different assumption than you have. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. It seems as if your opinion rests on a lot of what ifs. Not that those things should not be discussed because they should. As a mother and sister, I would do whatever I possibly could to help my family out whatever their situation might be within my budget, knowledge and power. Particularly with a lifelong health issue. Even if it involves some financial risk to myself.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/09/2021 5:38 PM  
Hello everyone,

I would like to thank all posters for offering their advice and time to post. As I stated above, I was only trying to determine if anyone else in America in an HOA was in my situation, and if that person could offer me advice.

Some posters here were positive, and some were negative. But, unfortunately, I think that is indicative of just about all social media today.

Unless someone has something significant to add, I think there is no longer a need to post in this topic.

Again, thank you to everyone who posted.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2607


06/09/2021 7:13 PM  
You aren't having much luck because you're asking the wrong people.

Your main questions have to do with inheritance, estate planning, and owning residential real estate (of all kinds, not just in HOAs). Once you get answers to these things, the HOA part is pretty easy. But these topics themselves are not particularly easy, which is why several of us have suggested talking to professionals who deal with them.

There are web sites and discussion groups devoted to care of elderly parents that may touch on some of the things you're interested in - but that isn't the main focus of these web sites, and you may or may not find anyone who can be helpful.

I hope you find what you're looking for.

AugustinD


Posts:1937


06/10/2021 7:19 PM  
Posted By AugustO on 06/07/2021 10:02 AM
How did your sibling manage to NOT lose her disability benefits and/or health insurance when the real estate market heated up (circa 2000-2008)?
The internet documents thoroughly that a disabled person on SSI may own one car and the real estate in which she or he resides, and neither the one car nor the real estate is counted when the government tallies up the disabled person's assets.
AugustinD


Posts:1937


06/10/2021 7:31 PM  
Regarding health insurance: First, back in 2008, the sibling was still holding a (menial) job and was not on SSI. Second, health insurance today is a whole new ball game. Medicaid in many states no longer considers assets. Obamacare only looks at income as reported on one's annual tax returns.

I agree with those who said you need an attorney. You should google and see if your local chapter of Legal Aid will help. For Pennsylvania, see https://palegalaid.net/. Google for New York Legal Aid contacts.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/11/2021 1:45 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/10/2021 7:19 PM
Posted By AugustO on 06/07/2021 10:02 AM
How did your sibling manage to NOT lose her disability benefits and/or health insurance when the real estate market heated up (circa 2000-2008)?
The internet documents thoroughly that a disabled person on SSI may own one car and the real estate in which she or he resides, and neither the one car nor the real estate is counted when the government tallies up the disabled person's assets.




Hi AD,

Thank you for the reply.

You confirmed what I mostly suspected. I am allowed to own one car. Also, as long as the house is my "primary residence", it shouldn't affect SSI.

However, as I mentioned above, health care is completely different. And, as I also mentioned above, the money is secondary to me. The most important thing to me is the health care. You wrote about that in your next post, and I will comment below.
AugustO
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:21


06/11/2021 2:09 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/10/2021 7:31 PM
Regarding health insurance: First, back in 2008, the sibling was still holding a (menial) job and was not on SSI. Second, health insurance today is a whole new ball game. Medicaid in many states no longer considers assets. Obamacare only looks at income as reported on one's annual tax returns.

I agree with those who said you need an attorney. You should google and see if your local chapter of Legal Aid will help. For Pennsylvania, see https://palegalaid.net/. Google for New York Legal Aid contacts.




HI AD,

Thank you again for the information.

You are correct when you state that the rules regarding health care are constantly changing, and every state has a different set of rules. It is confusing. I didn't know that, in many states, Medicaid no longer considers assets. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Of course, in my situation, I am dealing with 2 different states (NY and PA).

Yes, you and others are correct that I probably need an attorney to properly address all of these issues. I was hoping that it wouldn't be that complicated. But it appears that things in life are never simple. And it seems that you always need an attorney for something. If it wasn't so complicated, I would have been more likely to address these issues soon. Being that it is so complicated, and I probably need to involve an attorney, it is more likely that I will wait until the deed is transferred to my sister. If I prepare these documents now, I may need to do it all over again when the deed is transferred.

Another option is that mt mother can transfer the deed to my sister sooner rather than later. As some posters pointed out above, if my mother winds up in assisted living or a nursing home, the authorities can seize the property in the Poconos. That is a valid point, and it is very concerning to me. Maybe I can discuss this with my family.

Thank you for suggesting Legal Aid. I thought of that myself when I realized how complicated this would be. And thanks for the links.

By the way, in case you didn't notice, we have the same name. And it is not a common name. I noticed that more than one person here referred to you as "Augie". People call me that too.
BancsS
(Iowa)

Posts:100


06/11/2021 6:05 AM  
Hooray! Augie posts some thoughtful and helpful information to AugustO's questions respectfully without making any judgements on AugustO. Others have as well so kudos to those posters too.

This topic is so interesting and shows the complexities of property ownership and HOA's that increase that complexity. These types of topics are what keeps me logging onto HOATalk from time to time. Some of the disrespect is what also keeps me away. I do not have much to contribute in the way of advice but I can share personal situations in my own unique HOA in Iowa as well as having been sued by my HOA.

AugustO, I hope you keep us informed of your progress in achieving that dream of a home in the Poconos.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10595


06/11/2021 6:30 AM  
Yes and a Google search by the op would have done the same...

Former HOA President
JaniceM7
(Maryland)

Posts:16


06/11/2021 7:50 AM  
https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/text-resources-ussi.htm

This lists that the home you live in and the land it is on are ECLDUED from the $2000 cap on resources.
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