Get 1 year of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Monday, November 29, 2021











HOATalk is a free service of Community123.com:

Easy to use website tools to help your board
Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.
Subject: Corruption where to start
Prev Next
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Author Messages
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/20/2021 10:25 PM  
Hello everyone so going to try to keep this short. I inherited my grandparents house I grew up here.
I joined the board to help make the community better and have found out quite a bit of craziness to summarize.
1. Our treasurer gets paid $500 monthly we are a non profit HOA she's the only one who gets paid no 1099 it's under the table.
2. The summary of bylaws provided to new residents has things in it not in the full bylaws or any of the amendments kept at the county recorder of deeds. They enforce there's additional things with fines it's not legal though is it?
3. 1998 and before votes to amend by laws were recorded to the county with names and the thing being amended. From then forward none of the votes or the counting has been recorded. They have recorded amendments since then but not the specific voting. Is this acceptable? Ballot counting is done privately.
4. A current vote being done is to ammend bylaws to allow chickens. Thing is all ballots not sent back in are considered no votes. Our original bylaws states that if 50% of lot owner's participated in voting it was a 2/3 majority of all of those who voted. Doesn't say votes sent back in mean any thing either way. In the past ballots not sent in meant yes and now this time it means no.
5. A personal issue that I'd like clarification on. In 2007 my grandma had a small 3 foot fence put in for her dog it was approved by the board before hand and everything above board she passed in 2009 and my aunt inherited the house. In 2010 the board heckled my aunt to tear the fence down and board members did eventually come tear it down. There is two small ends of the fence still standing that come off the porch. Do I have any legal standing to build back the original fence? They do not allow lakeside fences however it doesn't state this in the bylaws clearly it does say no fences in front of the building line. Then in another area it says the lake side is considered the front line of the property but doesn't mention "building line".
6. Lastly the chair and secretary and all the folks in control will not say when they were last elected. It does say members have to be re elected every 3 years but nobody knows when they were last voted in and they won't provide that information. The county doesn't have that info either. Should the county? How do I get this information? What can I do about these situations? Look forward to input and advice thank you all so much for the help!
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10575


05/21/2021 2:55 AM  
Let's address some thing. I think have a few things confused.

1. Our treasurer gets paid $500 monthly we are a non profit HOA she's the only one who gets paid no 1099 it's under the table.

Just because your a non-profit and should be run by "volunteers" from the membership does not mean one can not get paid. Treasurer is the accountant of the HOA. Some Treasurer's are actual Accountants and thus do deserve to get paid for their work like any other accounting firm. Matter of fact, our HOA one of the owners/members was our accountant and thus was always elected as Treasurer. We paid their accounting firm to do the work. Non-profit means must spend as much as you collect on the operational/maintenance expenses of the HOA.

2. The summary of bylaws provided to new residents has things in it not in the full bylaws or any of the amendments kept at the county recorder of deeds. They enforce there's additional things with fines it's not legal though is it?

By-laws do not have to be filed in many states. What has to be filed at the County level is the CC&R's. By-laws can be filed but not required. They are usually considered INTERNAL HOA documents and NOT public. CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation (State) are PUBLIC. Thus not responsibility of the HOA to provide. They can if they want. Just most states it is the Seller or the purchaser to get a copy.

3. 1998 and before votes to amend by laws were recorded to the county with names and the thing being amended. From then forward none of the votes or the counting has been recorded. They have recorded amendments since then but not the specific voting. Is this acceptable? Ballot counting is done privately.

This is a bit complicated and legal opinion best opinion. Our lawyer told us a change/vote in the HOA's meeting notes could suffice as a "by-law" change. However, it's usually a vote of 51 - 100 % required of the membership to make official ammendments to the documents. The process is all defined in those documents for how to make and file changes.

4. A current vote being done is to ammend bylaws to allow chickens. Thing is all ballots not sent back in are considered no votes. Our original bylaws states that if 50% of lot owner's participated in voting it was a 2/3 majority of all of those who voted. Doesn't say votes sent back in mean any thing either way. In the past ballots not sent in meant yes and now this time it means no.

That is an issue with how to decide how a no response vote means. May need a legal opinion on this as well what a "No response" means.

5. A personal issue that I'd like clarification on. In 2007 my grandma had a small 3 foot fence put in for her dog it was approved by the board before hand and everything above board she passed in 2009 and my aunt inherited the house. In 2010 the board heckled my aunt to tear the fence down and board members did eventually come tear it down. There is two small ends of the fence still standing that come off the porch. Do I have any legal standing to build back the original fence? They do not allow lakeside fences however it doesn't state this in the bylaws clearly it does say no fences in front of the building line. Then in another area it says the lake side is considered the front line of the property but doesn't mention "building line".

This has changed ownership since the original approval. You still need to follow the asking for approval process whether or not in the past it was approved or not.


6. Lastly the chair and secretary and all the folks in control will not say when they were last elected. It does say members have to be re elected every 3 years but nobody knows when they were last voted in and they won't provide that information. The county doesn't have that info either. Should the county? How do I get this information? What can I do about these situations? Look forward to input and advice thank you all so much for the help!

Why would the County have this information? This is INTERNAL HOA business. Thus it is in the HOA's records. Should be in the HOA notes if they exist on the election timeline.

Former HOA President
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/21/2021 9:29 AM  
I found out that the "bylaws" they were claiming were the ones to follow are not the ones voted on or amended it was just random stuff they through together.
So I actually do not need approval to build a fence unless it is over 3ft in height. It has to be 15ft behind the building line.
Simple enough to follow.
Regarding the election there is no documentation that states when most of them were last elected. If there is they will not let anyone view it. That's the issue I have with that.
Regarding the treasurer being paid maybe you didn't understand what I said she gets paid tax free under the table. It's not done and actually taken out of the books and she claims the money on her taxes. The govt has no clue she is making that money. That's the concern. Also I'm not familiar with what cc&R's are. Haven't heard that term once around here. We have bylaws and amendments to them and then a summary page for every resident that says things the bylaws do not state at all.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10575


05/21/2021 10:01 AM  
Confused. If she is claiming it on her taxes then how doesn't the government know she is making the money? Are you thinking because the HOA doesn't reflect it then the government doesn't know? Plus there is often a limit on what is reportable. Do not know what those limits are for your situation but maybe it doesn't qualify. Plus believe it may be part of your HOA budget items. So as long as the balance sheet is balanced it should all come out in the wash.

CC&R's are the actual convenants and restrictions on file in the county. It goes with your property. The by-laws may be them but not labelled that. I would check to see what is on file with the county to make sure they match.

Corruption is a strong term to be tossing around. Maybe know how the process is to work before tossing such terms around.

Former HOA President
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/21/2021 10:07 AM  
The word corruption fits here very applicably. Her 500 doesn't show up anywhere on any sheet yet she gets it it's like it never comes in so it's never taken out.
Also they enforce rules that aren't in the bylaws or cc&RS whatever you'd like to call them. They say for example no fencing lakeside but the actual bylaws state that a fence can be had without board approval if it's 3ft tall or less and 15 feet behind the front line of the property.
They typed up the original bylaws but they aren't really because they edited them and added stuff but told everyone it's the original and it is not the originals it's not even close.
You may not like that I call it corrupt but that is exactly what it is!
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10575


05/21/2021 11:04 AM  
Still see no corruption. Just someone who got told no in erecting a fence. Plus original documents are usually NOT valid if there are amendments. It is what it has been ammendended to not from. The US constitution had 22 of them I believe. We don't go back to the original because we like it better.


Former HOA President
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/21/2021 11:19 AM  
I honestly feel like you have a comprehension problem at this point let me try this again I have all of the amendments they are doing things that are not by the bylaws or by the amendments. They have made rules that are not documented either place nor were they voted on our bylaws state that you have to have any change voted on and changes can only be made to be more restrictive within 6 months of the expiration of the 10-year reoccurring. Because our bylaws were set to be good for 30 years and then reoccur automatically and turn your intervals.
It would be wrong for them to tell somebody they can't have a certain type of fence if what they are saying is inconsistent with the bylaws and the amendments.
Also if someone is collecting a paycheck and it's not documented for tax purposes and it's hidden from the community and lied about when people ask that's a problem.
Another thing that's been done wrong for years is the assessment fees keep being increased. It states in the bylaws that in order to increase it they have to get a 2/3 majority of all lot owner votes to do so and it can only increase by $25 a year.
There's a lot of things they aren't doing by the book and it would be a novel to type it here so I'll just make it simple what do you do about board members who blatantly will not follow the bylaws? At this point I don't need your opinion on whether or not they're following it because I have read them several times now and happen to know that they are not following certain things I'd like to know what you do about it when board members don't follow the protocol.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/21/2021 11:42 AM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/20/2021 10:25 PM

1. Our treasurer gets paid $500 monthly we are a non profit HOA she's the only one who gets paid no 1099 it's under the table.
Try asking the board to consult an HOA attorney about whether what it is doing, tax-wise, is legal.

I trust your governing documents allow the HOA to compensate the treasurer. The latter is not unusual.
2. The summary of bylaws provided to new residents has things in it not in the full bylaws or any of the amendments kept at the county recorder of deeds. They enforce there's additional things with fines it's not legal though is it?
If the HOA is fining for violations of non-existent covenants, then correct, it's not legal to do so. But to get the Board's cooperation, you will have to hire an attorney; have the attorney make threats; and possibly take the HOA to court. Going to court will take at least two years. The initial legal cost to you will probably be more than $2000 just for the attorney to review your HOA's governing documents and state law.

3. 1998 and before votes to amend by laws were recorded to the county with names and the thing being amended. From then forward none of the votes or the counting has been recorded. They have recorded amendments since then but not the specific voting. Is this acceptable?
I suspect an HOA attorney would say it is advisable to record the vote but not required.

I found nothing in the Missouri Nonprofit Corporation statute on this point.


Ballot counting is done privately.
4. A current vote being done is to ammend bylaws to allow chickens. Thing is all ballots not sent back in are considered no votes. Our original bylaws states that if 50% of lot owner's participated in voting it was a 2/3 majority of all of those who voted. Doesn't say votes sent back in mean any thing either way.
The covention is: If less than the required quorum (here, 50%) submit ballots (be they yes, no, or "for quorum only"), then the proposed amendment does not pass. If quorum is met, then like you say, 2/3rds must vote in the affirmative for the proposed amendment to pass.

In the past ballots not sent in meant yes and now this time it means no.
Ballots not sent should mean nothing. The vote count is all about whether (1) quorum is met; and (2) whether 2/3rds voted in the affirmative.

5. A personal issue that I'd like clarification on. In 2007 my grandma had a small 3 foot fence put in for her dog it was approved by the board before hand and everything above board she passed in 2009 and my aunt inherited the house. In 2010 the board heckled my aunt to tear the fence down and board members did eventually come tear it down. There is two small ends of the fence still standing that come off the porch. Do I have any legal standing to build back the original fence? They do not allow lakeside fences however it doesn't state this in the bylaws clearly it does say no fences in front of the building line. Then in another area it says the lake side is considered the front line of the property but doesn't mention "building line".
See an attorney about this one.


6. Lastly the chair and secretary and all the folks in control will not say when they were last elected. It does say members have to be re elected every 3 years but nobody knows when they were last voted in and they won't provide that information.
See
https://law.justia.com/codes/missouri/2019/title-xxiii/chapter-355/ especially section 355.821 et seq. Send a letter registered mail, return receipt requested to the HOA's registered agent (as listed on the Missouri Secretary of State site, Corporations section) asking for xyz records, pursuant to Missouri's Nonprofit Corporation statute Section 355.821 and pursuant to anything your Bylaws/covenants say about records inspections.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8705


05/21/2021 12:01 PM  
Other names for CC&Rs (Covenants, Conditions & Restrictions) are: Covenants; deed restrictions; declaration. It would be very unusual if you have bylaws but no CC&Rs. SOMEtimes the CC&Rs & the Bylaws are one governing document.

Normally things like restrictions on fence height are in the CC&Rs or a different doc called something like Rules & Regulations. Bylaws usually are about how the HOA is run, officers, elections, how many directors, board meetings. In both our Bylaws & CC&Rs, we find that no officer (e.g., treasurer) may be paid (except reimbursed for supplies)

It's also possible that your HOA has a document called Architectural Guidelines or something similar which might talk about fence height.

I'm feeling like your'e missing some governing documents or perhaps calling them by the incorrect names.

What size is you HOA Dakota?
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8705


05/21/2021 12:02 PM  
Other names for CC&Rs (Covenants, Conditions & Restrictions) are: Covenants; deed restrictions; declaration. It would be very unusual if you have bylaws but no CC&Rs. SOMEtimes the CC&Rs & the Bylaws are one governing document.

Normally things like restrictions on fence height are in the CC&Rs or a different doc called something like Rules & Regulations. Bylaws usually are about how the HOA is run, officers, elections, how many directors, board meetings. In both our Bylaws & CC&Rs, we find that no officer (e.g., treasurer) may be paid (except reimbursed for supplies)

It's also possible that your HOA has a document called Architectural Guidelines or something similar which might talk about fence height.

I'm feeling like you're neglecting some governing documents or perhaps calling them by the incorrect names.

What size is you HOA Dakota?
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/22/2021 12:23 AM  
We have about 250 lots I believe.
They are referred to as restrictions in the document however everyone who lives here calls them bylaws. I believe we have always used the term interchangeably.
I have every single document the county has ever been given on our subdivision.
Our restrictions /byaws ect have nothing in them about paying a treasurer or an accountant.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:4216


05/22/2021 6:53 AM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/22/2021 12:23 AM
We have about 250 lots I believe.
They are referred to as restrictions in the document however everyone who lives here calls them bylaws. I believe we have always used the term interchangeably.
I have every single document the county has ever been given on our subdivision.
Our restrictions /byaws ect have nothing in them about paying a treasurer or an accountant.

Restrictions are limitations on what the Board can do. If there's nothing in your docs that disallow paying a treasurer or accountant, then the Board can decide to pay someone for services rendered.

Paying under the table exposes the HOA to financial risk for state and federal laws on taxing income, and should be recognized a violation of the Board members' fiduciary responsibilities. But one voice alone on a Board is unlikely to change things. You'll need to persuade others.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/22/2021 6:56 AM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/22/2021 12:23 AM

Our restrictions /byaws ect have nothing in them about paying a treasurer or an accountant.

The following from Missouri's nonprofit corporation act may or may not be relevant, depending in part on whether the treasurer is a director:

355.366. Compensation of directors. — Unless the articles or bylaws provide otherwise, the directors may not be compensated for their services as such.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/22/2021 7:16 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 05/22/2021 6:56 AM
Posted By DakotaS on 05/22/2021 12:23 AM

Our restrictions /byaws ect have nothing in them about paying a treasurer or an accountant.

The following from Missouri's nonprofit corporation act may or may not be relevant, depending in part on whether the treasurer is a director:

355.366. Compensation of directors. — Unless the articles or bylaws provide otherwise, the directors may not be compensated for their services as such.
For clarification --

-- The OP needs to understand that there is a difference between directors and officers. Directors are elected by the membership. Officers are appointed by a vote of the board.

-- Chances are high that, if the person who is treasurer is also director, her or his director duties are distinguishable from her or his treasurer duties. In my opinion, and if the bylaws and state statute do not prohibit payment of treasurers, treasurers should be paid, but with proper tax reporting. Also any treasurer accepting payment for services needs to understand she or he loses certain federal volunteer protections.

-- I agree with NPS's post.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11638


05/22/2021 9:31 AM  
The OP seems to be missing a lot of information. Could well be the Treasurer is not a elected BOD Member but one that was hired to be the Treasurer. This is acceptable in most associations.
MaxB4


Posts:1578


05/22/2021 10:38 AM  
99% of the Bylaws will state that directors, in their capacity as directors or officers may not be compensated. Officers, who are not director may, per the language of their Bylaws, may be compensated. Remember, only directors are authorized to cast votes at a Board members.
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/22/2021 10:54 AM  
I am not missing anything.
I don't doubt that paying an accountant is above board if paid legally. She however is paid under the table.
Furthermore I will say there hasn't been an election for the treasurer, the chair person, secretary, building supervisor in a long time. Our restrictions just say any board member is elected for a three year term. Does not distinguish between different types of members ect.

Also the blatant disregard for the actual restrictions is a major issue.
We had original restrictions from 1955 they were superceded by 1966 restrictions. Those restrictions have had things added to and amended but they have never been redone in their entirety. They restrictions were good for 30yrs and then automatically reoccurring every 10 years after. In 2018 they amended a ton of things. And then they created a 4 page summary. But there are restrictions in the summary that were never in the past restrictions nor were they things that were amended. Example would be our restrictions says and this is the most current amendment of this topic. "No unlicensed vehicles on the road except lawn mowers, tractors and golf carts. All vehicles must be accompanied by a licensed driver."
In the summary they stated the same thing but then added no 4 wheelers 3 wheelers or go karts. My issue with this is you can license a 4 wheeler in Missouri for example so it is a licensed vehicle but board says they aren't allowed under any circumstances.
No amendment says this nothing says it except their summary which wasn't voted on or anything they just made it up.

Before I was a board member I asked for approval to lay gravel on the public lot which my driveway buts up to it was a muddy mess. They gave me permission I told them the kind of rock ect. Then they turn around after I laid it and send the treasurer down who said it didn't feel smooth enough (needed to be driven on and packed down) she told me if I didn't make it smoother immediately that she would fine me for it. I was taking care of the community property and did everything as it was approved and she threatens to fine me. These are the types of folks in power around here. Very controlling power hungry folks. Used to be a great community when my grandparents lived here but now they run around enforcing laws that don't exist that they made up in their head and threatening fines and liens to anyone who doesn't bend to them.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8705


05/22/2021 11:10 AM  
Most HOAs are corporations? Is yours? If so, you're required to have bylaws. That your owners and directors call documents by the wrong names is a problem. It is causing confusion and misunderstandings in your HOA.

It's in bylaws, generally, where you'll see the difference between officers & directors. Usually officers are only elected by the Board for one year.

It's also in bylaws where you'll see which officers (appointed by the Board), if any, are not required to be directors (elected by the membership). the Bylaws also tell you how elections should be held.

I honestly believe, Dakota, that if you and maybe a few others, could chip in maybe $300 to buy an hour of an HOA or contract attorney's time, a lot of misinformation could be straightened out.
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/22/2021 11:18 AM  
Everyone has always called our documents "bylaws" however the only documents we have are technically called restrictions and amendments.
There is no separate bylaws or anything.
They have everything in the restrictions and amendments. Including voting and elections ect.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/22/2021 11:22 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/22/2021 10:38 AM
99% of the Bylaws will state that directors, in their capacity as directors or officers [snip]
This is either incredibly poor writing or ignorance or just non-helpful bs. It is indicating that being an officer is some kind of sub-category of being a director. Many HOA/COA Bylaws allow officers, especially the treasurer, to be a non-director. Either way, a director's duties are different from an officer's duties, especially with regard to a treasurer.
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/22/2021 11:22 AM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/22/2021 11:18 AM
Everyone has always called our documents "bylaws" however the only documents we have are technically called restrictions and amendments.
There is no separate bylaws or anything.
They have everything in the restrictions and amendments. Including voting and elections ect.




Also yes we are a corporation.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/22/2021 11:29 AM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/22/2021 10:54 AM
I am not missing anything.
...
Furthermore I will say there hasn't been an election for the treasurer, the chair person, secretary, building supervisor in a long time. Our restrictions just say any board member is elected for a three year term. Does not distinguish between different types of members ect.
Do you understand that the election of officers is by the Board and that election of directors is by the membership?

From the Missouri Nonprofit Corporation Statute:

355.326. Election, designation of members. — 1. If the corporation has members, all the directors, except the initial directors, shall be elected at the first annual meeting of members, and at each annual meeting thereafter, unless the articles or bylaws provide some other time or method of election, or provide that some of the directors are appointed by some other person or designated.
[snip irrelevant second section]

355.431. Required officers. — 1. Unless otherwise provided in the articles or bylaws, a corporation shall have a chairman or president, or both a chairman and president, a secretary, a treasurer and such other officers as are appointed by the board. In addition to other matters, the articles or bylaws may provide for the direct election of officers of the corporation by the members.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/22/2021 11:30 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/22/2021 11:10 AM

I honestly believe, Dakota, that if you and maybe a few others, could chip in maybe $300 to buy an hour of an HOA or contract attorney's time, a lot of misinformation could be straightened out.
Ditto.
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/22/2021 12:06 PM  
I understand that's how it typically is. However our restrictions and amendments which again is all we have doesn't distinguish between officers and directors. So I'm not exactly sure of the difference in duties. They have my wife and I listed as an advisor. However we were voted in by the board. The community hasn't be apart of an election in a long time from what I understand.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8705


05/22/2021 12:08 PM  
Another governing document that your HOA must have (b/c you're a corporation) are Articles of Incorporation. This document is filed with the STATE. Ours have very little of interest in them, but yours might have a fair amount of info that will be useful to you, Dakota.

Do you have such a document, Dakota?
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/22/2021 12:53 PM  
No we don't and neither does the recorder of deeds. I have everything from the recorder of deeds.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10575


05/22/2021 1:56 PM  
This is a state level filing. This makes your HOA incorporated. So if it's not filed then your HOA may not be incorporated.

Former HOA President
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8705


05/22/2021 2:38 PM  
As Melissa points out, Dakota, the Articles of Incorporation are filed with the STATE, not your local county recorder's office.

The Board appointed you & spouse as "advisors?" Can you tell us what the duties are? Is that title defined in your documents? Do your documents t say that the Board can create titles as needed to help your HOA run effectively?
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/22/2021 2:45 PM  
How would I go about getting info from the state?
We do whatever we want to take on really.
The paper work just says to have trustees and such doesn't say advisors or certu duties besides chair co chair treasurer and secretary.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10575


05/22/2021 3:31 PM  
The articles of incorporation usually have positions and their duties in it. Plus how to conduct meetings. That is because it defines the corporate structure.

BTW: The HOA can can 4 wheelers or Golf Carts even if they are legal licensed vehicles. They can do damage to the grounds. Plus cause other liability issues. A HOA can be MORE restrictive.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/22/2021 3:40 PM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/22/2021 2:45 PM
How would I go about getting info from the state?
Go to https://bsd.sos.mo.gov/search . Put in your HOA's name. Print out the info that comes up. Then contact the Missouri Secretary of State at

(573) 751-4153
Toll Free (866) 223-6535, OPT 2

Ask how to obtain the Articles of Incorporation for your HOA. Usually one has to request them and pay a small fee (like under $20 or so) and then wait a few days. Sometimes the Articles of Incorporation are available online.

Glad you asked.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/22/2021 3:44 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/22/2021 3:31 PM
The articles of incorporation usually have positions and their duties in it. Plus how to conduct meetings.
No this is not what the Articles of Incorporation typically contain. They can be quite bland, like this boilerplate version:
https://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/Business/corp41.pdf

or more detailed, like this:
https://www.eneighbors.com/!h_1392954912/public-document/13957833924
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/22/2021 3:52 PM  
It says in the restrictions they can not make rules more restrictive unless they do it within the 6 month period before the restrictions are set to renew. Since we had a 30 yr period initially and then 10yr periods after that. And in order to change the amendments they'd have to get a 2/3 vote of all lot owners.
It does say they can promulgate rules not inconsistent with the restrictions we have though. Question is not allowing 4 wheelers fall into that? In my opinion it makes the rules more restrictive which is says they cannot do unless they do it as I said above.
MaxB4


Posts:1578


05/22/2021 4:00 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 05/22/2021 11:22 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/22/2021 10:38 AM
99% of the Bylaws will state that directors, in their capacity as directors or officers [snip]
This is either incredibly poor writing or ignorance or just non-helpful bs. It is indicating that being an officer is some kind of sub-category of being a director. Many HOA/COA Bylaws allow officers, especially the treasurer, to be a non-director. Either way, a director's duties are different from an officer's duties, especially with regard to a treasurer.



First, you never answer a question a while back, how many HOA boards have you actually participated on, and/or how many HOA's have you personally managed? You might be good at research and the use of Google, but that is about it.

The verbiage "directors, in their capacity as directors or officers may not be compensated", actually came from a set of Bylaws, not my writing. Treasurers, if also a director CANNOT be compensated, they might be reimbursed for out of pocket expenses. Many older Bylaws, which haven't been updated, won't require officers to also be directors. I have some HOA's currently that only the president to be a director and owner while the other directors or officer need not be owners.

Since I haven't managed any self-managed HOA's, I can only speak to experience of HOA's I've managed. While Bylaws may outline specific duties for both a director and a officer, I have found that most of those duties are relegated to a management company.

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8705


05/22/2021 4:23 PM  
Fine info for Dakota, Augustin!

The "Articles" might help and they might say sorting about ("real") Bylaws.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8705


05/22/2021 4:24 PM  
Fine info for Dakota, Augustin!

The "Articles" might help and they might say something about ("real") the Bylaws.
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/22/2021 9:57 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/22/2021 4:23 PM
Fine info for Dakota, Augustin!

The "Articles" might help and they might say sorting about ("real") Bylaws.




Considering your snarky attitude I don't think I have to answer any of your questions. I rarely use Google to research important matters I find creditable sources not internet jargon. I only joined here to get thoughts but some of you are plain stupid. Like you have stock in an HOA or something.
I have every single document from the county ever recorded and I can read so finding out the truth on most of these issues isn't hard to do. I can read well enough to figure out they're making shit up at will. I may not of spent my life being a HOA board member. But I am far from unintelligent. I asked questions here. I don't think I need to be put on trial. Some of you guys have been great and some are fine examples of why most Americans don't want to be in an HOA. a lot of control freaks and power hungry zealots.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10575


05/23/2021 12:10 AM  
Yep. You can not help stupid..

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/23/2021 6:26 AM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/22/2021 9:57 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/22/2021 4:23 PM
Fine info for Dakota, Augustin!

The "Articles" might help and they might say sorting about ("real") Bylaws.




Considering your snarky attitude I don't think I have to answer any of your questions. I rarely use Google to research important matters I find creditable sources not internet jargon. I only joined here to get thoughts but some of you are plain stupid. Like you have stock in an HOA or something.
I have every single document from the county ever recorded and I can read so finding out the truth on most of these issues isn't hard to do. I can read well enough to figure out they're making shit up at will. I may not of spent my life being a HOA board member. But I am far from unintelligent. I asked questions here. I don't think I need to be put on trial. Some of you guys have been great and some are fine examples of why most Americans don't want to be in an HOA. a lot of control freaks and power hungry zealots.
DakotaS, the veteran posters here who know what they are doing know that asking questions of the OP is often the only way to give sound advice. KerryL1 is a long-time director who sits on the board of her HOA/COA -- one of the few HOA/COA boards of which I know that is functional and has a good relationship with its attorney such that the board follows the law. I found nothing snarky in KerryL's questioning. But you are entitled to your opinion, of course.

I realize that, like many posters here, you are frustrated with your board, and all the signs are, rightly so. But I think in over half the cases, if the person is not willing to do research themselves, the only hope is hiring an attorney. The best this forum can offer is to help a person prepare for the meeting with the attorney. Such preparation often saves time and money.

Attorneys competent in HOA/COA law nearly always advise that the quickest path to change is to get on the board with a like-minded majority. Threatening suit is expensive. Filing suit and seeing it through to its conclusion typically takes at least 1.5 years. If the board is recalcitrant, taking three or more years to resolve a lawsuit is not unusual. The membership of the HOA gets to pay the HOA's attorney's fees.

The Articles of Incorporation will not be on file with the County offices. They will be on file with the state. Obtaining and reading a copy of the Articles may help. Any attorney you see will likely want a copy of the Articles along with the covenants and bylaws.

MaxB4, I answered your questions at least once. Unlike you, when I make a mistake, for the good of the forum, I own it or do not respond further to a correction. That you think one set of Bylaws is representative of pretty much all Bylaws just wastes people's time. You've pulled the latter bs time and again. You have even argued that, for any one state, one HOAs/COAs Bylaws will be boilerplate for all the rest of the state's HOAs/COAs. Nonsense.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/23/2021 6:35 AM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/22/2021 10:54 AM
In 2018 they amended a ton of things. And then they created a 4 page summary. But there are restrictions in the summary that were never in the past restrictions nor were they things that were amended. Example would be our restrictions says and this is the most current amendment of this topic. "No unlicensed vehicles on the road except lawn mowers, tractors and golf carts. All vehicles must be accompanied by a licensed driver."
In the summary they stated the same thing but then added no 4 wheelers 3 wheelers or go karts. My issue with this is you can license a 4 wheeler in Missouri for example so it is a licensed vehicle but board says they aren't allowed under any circumstances.
No amendment says this nothing says it except their summary which wasn't voted on or anything they just made it up.
If this summary is in some way in the form of rules and regs the Board created, then I would keep in mind that Boards usually have the lawful power to make reasonable rules concerning the use of common areas. If these roads are maintained by the HOA, the board might be in its rights to create reasonable rules regarding the roads' use. I am not sure whether the rule on 4 wheelers and 3 wheelers is reasonable. Same for the other rules on vehicles. I would want to know why they placed these restriction on the roads.

Your architectural issues (concerning your own lot) deserve the attention of an attorney. Alternatively, you could google on how to write a "letter of demand" and send it yourself. But in my experience, few posters here are capable of writing such a letter (concise; focused on the law; and giving the Board a brief warning about what may lay ahead if it continues to refuse to comply with the covenants/bylaws).
MaxB4


Posts:1578


05/23/2021 9:16 AM  
Augustin

Where have I ever stated that one set of Bylaws is representative of all Associations or Corporation. I have also never stated that one association's Bylaws is the boilerplate for all the state's Bylaws. That is pure B.S. That's is your way of deflecting from the questions asked of you.

Unlike you, I have actually put into place 30 plus restated CCRs and Bylaws (from boilerplate documents), the same amount of new Rules and Regulations, 120 plus Elections Rules. Unlike Boards, I actually read their governing documents in order to properly manage their properties. Twice annually I attend CAI and CACM sponsored law seminars. So I kinda keep up to date on the changing laws within my state.

You seem to have a disdain for people who don't take you advice or read the articles you googled. If someone disagrees with you, they are liars. Not everything is about suing an association or having someone write a threatening letter to their board or management company when you only have one set of facts.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/23/2021 9:18 AM  
We disagree.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10575


05/23/2021 9:23 AM  
My feeling on this OP is that they were denied or told to remove a fence. Plus they are not allowed to have a 3 or 4 wheeler riding in the neighborhood. I also find it hard to believe someone is being "paid under the table" without seeing this on the books. It doesn't make sense when you deal with the HOA's budgets. I also don't see why can't pay someone for what is considered professional services. Our Treasurer was also our accountant because they owned an accounting firm. Why not hire someone whom is a professional?

If you can't google something then that is no one else's fault. That is all on your decision making and response. We all don't always agree but that is life. No need to be Karen about it.

Former HOA President
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/23/2021 9:51 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/23/2021 9:23 AM
My feeling on this OP is that they were denied or told to remove a fence. Plus they are not allowed to have a 3 or 4 wheeler riding in the neighborhood. I also find it hard to believe someone is being "paid under the table" without seeing this on the books. It doesn't make sense when you deal with the HOA's budgets. I also don't see why can't pay someone for what is considered professional services. Our Treasurer was also our accountant because they owned an accounting firm. Why not hire someone whom is a professional?

If you can't google something then that is no one else's fault. That is all on your decision making and response. We all don't always agree but that is life. No need to be Karen about it.




I haven't been denied for anything.... nothing you said is even accurate. Also that's great that you find it hard to believe but it's a fact! So move along.
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/23/2021 10:00 AM  
Folks this is really simple I have read the entire restrictions and amendments all the way through as has my wife. I joined the board to make change. The people currently on the board have no interest in following our actual restrictions. They have in their head made their own and they have done so without a vote of the community or anything nof the sort which our restrictions say if they are to make a restriction more restrictive they must get 2/3 of lot owner's to vote for the change. Also says they can only do this every 9.5 years and not just whenever they want to.
They haven't followed that part of the restrictions at all.
Even our assessments an increase is supposed to be voted on by the community and get a 2/3 majority but they don't do that they just raise them as they wish. They do not follow the restrictions. That is the issue I have. I believe if your going to be apart of governing you should know your restrictions and know them well. These folks do not.
I gave my fence story above so any nonsense about me being denied isn't accurate. I haven't gone to the board with any plans yet. I intend on build a 3ft fence respecting all set backs and if I do that the restrictions say I don't need approval.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/23/2021 10:07 AM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/23/2021 10:00 AM
Folks this is really simple
Yes, the violations by your Board do appear to be simple in nature, obvious and egregious. And the solution, for 99.99% of the many directors who find themselves in your shoes, starts with either (1) hiring an attorney or getting the HOA attorney involved; or (2) working to get others who feel as you do elected to the board.
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/23/2021 10:19 AM  
Is there a way to find out who our attorney is? When I have asked I wasn't provided an answer by the board.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/23/2021 10:30 AM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/23/2021 10:19 AM
Is there a way to find out who our attorney is? When I have asked I wasn't provided an answer by the board.
Possibilities (when dealing with certain HOA directors who are not giving up information they should give up):

-- If there is an HOA manager, ask the manager.

-- Submit a formal records request, pursuant to Missouri Nonprofit Corporation statute sections 355.821 and 355.826. See https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneChapter.aspx?chapter=355. Ask for all billing statements of the past year. Or maybe ask for all the invoices from the HOA attorney. Or ask for all Minutes and see if the name of the HOA attorney is mentioned in them.

-- If per chance your HOA has taken legal action in recent years, and you have a copy of any of the papers filed with the court, look up the case number at https://www.courts.mo.gov/cnet/caseNoSearch.do . Often the name of the the attorney representing the HOA is listed.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11638


05/23/2021 10:49 AM  
Dakota

The association's attorney is not your attorney and would not represent you in any way having anything to do with the BOD.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11638


05/23/2021 11:15 AM  
Dakota

Was your association originally a camping, tents, mobile home, camper, etc. part-time vacation type association or was it set up for year round living?

Of the 250 or so lots you said are there, how many have a year round living structure on it?
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/23/2021 11:22 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/23/2021 10:49 AM
Dakota

The association's attorney is not your attorney and would not represent you in any way having anything to do with the BOD.
By way of what I hope is a bit of elaboration and not stepping on JohnC46's feet (too much): The HOA attorney is supposed to represent the best interests of the corporation. If the HOA attorney learns from one director that the other directors are not complying with the covenants and bylaws, the HOA attorney may step in and offer an opinion; ask for a meeting with all; and so on; all to spare the HOA legal problems down the road. Because this is in the best interests of the corporation.

Whether a rogue board majority will follow the advice contained in the HOA attorney's opinion is another matter.

Similarly, whether the HOA attorney can even persuade a board majority that a meeting with the HOA attorney to discuss the issues raised here is similarly, an open question.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11638


05/23/2021 12:48 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 05/23/2021 11:22 AM
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/23/2021 10:49 AM
Dakota

The association's attorney is not your attorney and would not represent you in any way having anything to do with the BOD.
By way of what I hope is a bit of elaboration and not stepping on JohnC46's feet (too much): The HOA attorney is supposed to represent the best interests of the corporation. If the HOA attorney learns from one director that the other directors are not complying with the covenants and bylaws, the HOA attorney may step in and offer an opinion; ask for a meeting with all; and so on; all to spare the HOA legal problems down the road. Because this is in the best interests of the corporation.

Whether a rogue board majority will follow the advice contained in the HOA attorney's opinion is another matter.

Similarly, whether the HOA attorney can even persuade a board majority that a meeting with the HOA attorney to discuss the issues raised here is similarly, an open question.



In one HOA I was a member of, an owner sent the BOD a letter calling them out on denial of an ARC he had submitted and threatening legal action. The BOD sent all the information to their attorney and they wanted the attorney to reply in the BOD's favor. The attorney told the BOD the letter writer was correct and he would not represent the BOD on the issue. Three BOD Members, the President included, wanted to fire the attorney for not agreeing/backing them. Fortunately cooler heads prevailed. This issue did begin a move to change 4 of 7 BOD Members come election time. Took us 2 election cycles, but we did it.
DakotaS
(Missouri)

Posts:41


05/23/2021 12:56 PM  
It was set up for year round living and most properties have stick built homes on them a few lots are undeveloped but the majority are improved.
There are plenty of people who use their home here as a part time/weekend home.
I do not have case numbers so I am not sure how to find the attorneys name on case net.
AugustinD


Posts:1853


05/23/2021 3:20 PM  
Posted By DakotaS on 05/23/2021 12:56 PM

I do not have case numbers so I am not sure how to find the attorneys name on case net.
Here's a Missouri court case search engine that let's one put in the business name (using the "Last Name" field):

https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/searchCases.do?searchType=name

Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Corruption where to start



Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.







General Legal Notice:  The content of forum messages are from the posting member and have not been reviewed nor endorsed by HOATalk.com.  Messages posted by HOATalk or other members are for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice and do not constitute an attorney-client relationship.  Readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel.  HOATalk is not a licensed attorney, CPA, tax advisor, financial advisor or any other licensed professional.  HOATalk accepts ads from sponsors but does not verify sponsor qualifications nor endorse/guarantee any sponsor's product or service.
Legal Notice For Messages Posted by Sponsoring Attorneys: This message has been prepared by the sponsoring attorney for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Readers of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send any sponsoring attorney confidential information unless you speak with the sponsoring attorney or an attorney from the sponsoring attorney’s firm and get authorization to send that information to them. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in the firm of the sponsoring attorney. Sponsoring attorneys that post messages here are licensed to practice law in a specific state or states as indicated in their message signature or sponsor’s profile page. (NOTE: A ‘sponsoring attorney’ is an attorney that is a HOATalk.com official sponsor and is identified as such in the posted message or on our sponsor page.)

Copyright HOA Talk.com, A Service of Community123 LLC ( Homeowners Association Discussions )   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement