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Subject: Property Manager contracted by HOA non compliant
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Author Messages
AliciaP1
(Colorado)

Posts:5


05/16/2021 7:52 PM  
I am the Secretary of our HOA board. Currently our property manager has been the keeper of HOA documents. I recently asked for the email and phone numbers of our owners and she refused to give them to me. I cited various things in our bylaws and state regulations that states she does need to give the documents to me. She is unfortunately backed up by 3 of the 5 board members that are the good old boys club so they haven’t said a word and likely told her in private not to give me the documents even though they have them. Do I have any recourse to take on getting these documents from her? Legally I should be allowed to have them. What steps can I take from here on out if she refuses? If the entire board wasn’t against each other it would be easier to get the documents. Thanks.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10590


05/16/2021 9:20 PM  
Sorry but email addresses are private. Your dealing with PII. Phone numbers may be public informatiin along with addresses. No one needs to provide anyone with public informatiin. Plus as Secretary are you not responsible for having all the addresses of the property? A simple walk or a google search should provide this if you do the work.

Former HOA President
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


05/16/2021 9:39 PM  
Email addresses are not private, Worldmark v Wyndham.
AliciaP1
(Colorado)

Posts:5


05/16/2021 10:12 PM  
We don’t give out email addresses or phone numbers to the general membership. I am not the general
Membership. I’m an Executive Director and the Secretary. I am the keeper of the HOA documents, as coming on new to the board this year, I need to maintain these documents for the HOA. The property manager we contracted currently has this information and so have asked her for it to do my job. The question isn’t the legality of me retaining the information, it’s what repercussions do I have when she refuses to give me all HOA documents I ask for.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


05/16/2021 10:33 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/16/2021 9:39 PM
Email addresses are not private, Worldmark v Wyndham [a California Appeals Court decision binding only on certain lower California courts et cetera].
In California, yes. Other states, it depends.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


05/16/2021 10:50 PM  
Posted By AliciaP1 on 05/16/2021 7:52 PM
I am the Secretary of our HOA board. Currently our property manager has been the keeper of HOA documents. I recently asked for the email and phone numbers of our owners and she refused to give them to me. I cited various things in our bylaws and state regulations that states she does need to give the documents to me. She is unfortunately backed up by 3 of the 5 board members that are the good old boys club so they haven’t said a word and likely told her in private not to give me the documents even though they have them. Do I have any recourse to take on getting these documents from her? Legally I should be allowed to have them. What steps can I take from here on out if she refuses? If the entire board wasn’t against each other it would be easier to get the documents. Thanks.
Regarding contact information of HOA members:

-- Colorado Nonprofit Corporation statute only requires that the HOA corporation offer HOA members names and address of other members. See https://altitude.law/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/07307998.pdf

-- The Colorado Common Interest Ownership Act also only requires the HOA to offer HOA members' names and addresses of other members. See
https://www.hopb.co/colorado-common-interest-ownership-act-article-33-3

-- The Colorado Condominium Act appears to have no requirement that the HOA offer any contact information for members. See https://www.hopb.co/colorado-condominium-ownership-act-title-38-article-33 . But the Nonprofit Corporation statute controls.


What exactly do your Bylaws and Declaration say about what records members are allowed to have?

The property manager might be right.

I advise not going around saying the HOA is violating Colorado statutes on this matter until you have a citation.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


05/16/2021 10:56 PM  
Posted By AliciaP1 on 05/16/2021 10:12 PM
I’m an Executive Director and the Secretary. I am the keeper of the HOA documents, as coming on new to the board this year, I need to maintain these documents for the HOA.
The customary reading of clauses in the Bylaws or Declaration saying the Secretary is the custodian yada of such-and-such records does not mean the Secretary has to have physical possession of these documents. The Secretary need only be able to locate these documents.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10590


05/17/2021 5:02 AM  
Email addresses are not public information. It is given per permission by the owner of it. It's not like an address which I can walk by your door and find. That is public. A phone can be private or public. However, sometimes you have to do the actual work.

Former HOA President
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


05/17/2021 7:31 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/16/2021 9:20 PM
Sorry but email addresses are private. Your dealing with PII. Phone numbers may be public informatiin along with addresses. No one needs to provide anyone with public informatiin. Plus as Secretary are you not responsible for having all the addresses of the property? A simple walk or a google search should provide this if you do the work.



I guarantee that HOATalk sold the email you signed up for a profit.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10590


05/17/2021 7:55 AM  
Nope they did not. It is why I keep it private. Plus I do not use a real name nor email address. It is for junk mail only. If you want you can post your email address.

Former HOA President
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


05/17/2021 8:16 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/17/2021 7:55 AM
Nope they did not. It is why I keep it private. Plus I do not use a real name nor email address. It is for junk mail only. If you want you can post your email address.



And you were never a HOA president, right?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10590


05/17/2021 8:21 AM  
I was President, Vice President, board member, and general member. Do not have the need for an email address of other members unless they agreed to it

Former HOA President
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8729


05/17/2021 8:54 AM  
Augustin shows that you may not have the email addresses or phone numbers in CO. It does not matter if you're an officer of the corporation.

Let it go, Alicia, and work on helping to establish better relationships between & among board members. This is not a hill you want to die on.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2599


05/17/2021 8:56 AM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/17/2021 7:31 AM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/16/2021 9:20 PM
Sorry but email addresses are private. Your dealing with PII. Phone numbers may be public informatiin along with addresses. No one needs to provide anyone with public informatiin. Plus as Secretary are you not responsible for having all the addresses of the property? A simple walk or a google search should provide this if you do the work.



I guarantee that HOATalk sold the email you signed up for a profit.



Evidence?
AliciaP1
(Colorado)

Posts:5


05/17/2021 9:27 AM  
So on any given day you are correct, let it go and move on. However, we have an over zealous HOA president who believes he is a dictator and a property manager that works for us who believes she is untouchable. This is not the first problem nor likely the last. They don't respect women, they don't respect each other's position or opinion and they love to create drama. This was a simple request as the Secretary to get the contact information for the records. They want to turn this into a bigger deal then necessary. I have read through CCIOA and the RPGs carefully to determine that I do indeed have every right and access to this information as a board member and the Secretary. That is not the issue in this manner. It is, what recourse do I take to obtain these documents, and more so to show that we need to play by and follow the rules on this board. We don't get to do what we want, when we want. We don't get to use the lawyer at our leisure but requires the board to make a decision. We don't get to just decide on our own rules but need to follow the state rules and our bylaws. This needs to be established going forward so that this board (the President) does not continue to think they run the show and no one else matters. That is why this is something that I won't just let go because it sets a precedent to continue to act like baboons.
AugustinD


Posts:1920


05/17/2021 9:44 AM  
Posted By AliciaP1 on 05/17/2021 9:27 AM
I have read through CCIOA and the RPGs carefully to determine that I do indeed have every right and access to this information as a board member and the Secretary.
Would you please quote exactly the parts of the Colorado statutes and these RPGs that you claim support your position?
AliciaP1
(Colorado)

Posts:5


05/17/2021 9:57 AM  
I can't BOLD on here the parts of these that apply. Remember something very important. The Property Manager reports to US, we don't report to her. If she were to be fired, I would be the one who need access to ALL documents pertaining to our HOA. NO document of our HOA should be kept secret from me or any other board member. Period. Again, this is less about whether I should have access, and more about the recourse of action to get the documents.



CCIOA:

38-33.3-302. Powers of unit owners' association. (1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, and subject to the provisions of the declaration, the association, without specific authorization in the declaration, may:
(o) exercise any other powers conferred by the declaration or bylaws;
(q) exercise any other powers necessary and proper for the governance and operation of the association.

38-33.3-303. Executive board members and officers. (1) (a) Except as provided in the declaration, the bylaws, or subsection (3) of this section or any other provisions of this article, the executive board may act in all instances on behalf of the association. (b) Notwithstanding any provision of the declaration or bylaws to the contrary, all members of the executive board shall have available to them all information related to the responsibilities and operation of the association obtained by any other member of the executive board. This information shall include, but is not necessarily limited to, reports of detailed monthly expenditures, contracts to which the association is a party, and copies of communications, reports, and opinions to and from any member of the executive board or any managing agent, attorney, or accountant employed or engaged by the executive board to whom the executive board delegates responsibilities under this article. (2) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2.5) of this section: (a) If appointed by the declarant, in the performance of their duties, the officers and members of the executive board are required to exercise the care required of fiduciaries of the unit owners.


Our Bylaws:

Section 2.3 Manager. The Executive Board may employ a Manager for Double Diamond Condominium, at a compensation established by the Executive Board, to perform duties and services authorized by the Executive Board. The Executive Board may delegate to the Manager only the powers granted to the Executive Board by these Bylaws under Section 2.2, Subdivisions (c), (e), (g) and (h). Licenses, concessions and contracts may be executed by the Manager pursuant to specific resolutions of the Executive Board and to fulfill the requirements of the budget. Regardless of any delegation to a Manager or Managing Agent, the members of the Executive Board shall not be relieved of responsibilities under the Declaration, the Articles of Incorporation, these Bylaws or Colorado law.

Section 4.6 Secretary. The secretary shall keep the minutes of all meetings of the Condominium Unit Owners and the Executive Board. The secretary shall have charge of the Association's books and papers as the Executive Board may direct and shall perform all the duties incident to the office of secretary of a nonprofit corporation organized under the laws of the State of Colorado. The secretary may cause to be prepared and may attest to execution by the president of amendments to the Declaration and the Bylaws on behalf of the Association, following authorization or approval of the particular amendment as applicable.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:10590


05/17/2021 10:33 AM  
Where does it say email and phone numbers are records of the HOA?

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1920


05/17/2021 10:47 AM  
Posted By AliciaP1 on 05/17/2021 9:57 AM
I can't BOLD on here the parts of these that apply. Remember something very important. The Property Manager reports to US, we don't report to her. If she were to be fired, I would be the one who need access to ALL documents pertaining to our HOA. NO document of our HOA should be kept secret from me or any other board member. Period. Again, this is less about whether I should have access, and more about the recourse of action to get the documents.
Thank you for quoting what you think is relevant. To me, the only part of the CCIOA that you quoted that seems even remotely relevant is: "all members of the executive board shall have available to them all information related to the responsibilities and operation of the association obtained by any other member of the executive board." To say this means you must have the email addresses and phone numbers seems a stretch to me.

I do not believe Colorado has any state agency to address an internal HOA dispute like this. This means your recourse is to send demand letters (google for the format and sort of wording to use) and then, as needed, hire an attorney to threaten suit.

Per the law, the manager takes orders from a board majority unless the board majority delegates certain duties to a director of officer and the majority asks the manager to take direction, related to these duties, from the one director or officer.

I do not like your chances. But I recognize you feel strongly the law is on your side and you are not going to put up with actions you think are unlawful. I am sorry about the sexism. Good luck.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


05/17/2021 11:28 AM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/17/2021 8:56 AM
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/17/2021 7:31 AM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/16/2021 9:20 PM
Sorry but email addresses are private. Your dealing with PII. Phone numbers may be public informatiin along with addresses. No one needs to provide anyone with public informatiin. Plus as Secretary are you not responsible for having all the addresses of the property? A simple walk or a google search should provide this if you do the work.



I guarantee that HOATalk sold the email you signed up for a profit.



Evidence?



And how do you think you end up with juke email. In today's world, you should never, I repeat, NEVER expect privacy when you give someone your email address, whether fake or not.
JohnT38
(South Carolina)

Posts:794


05/17/2021 11:35 AM  
"...In today's world, you should never, I repeat, NEVER expect privacy when you give someone your email address, whether fake or not."

Gee, I had no idea. This is earth shattering information!

CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2599


05/17/2021 12:37 PM  
Posted By MaxB4 on 05/17/2021 11:28 AM
...

... snippety doo dah ...

And how do you think you end up with juke email. .....



I totally want to get juke email, the regular stuff is so boring...
TerryS6
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:13


05/17/2021 1:08 PM  
Obvious that a reliable and updated membership census should be available
to Board members for management purposes. And, kept confidential. Members
at large should not have access. Emergencies happen. On-site Board members
need to have ready access to contact information. It can really help the
police and firefighters. Advise: the wise don't need it and fools won't
heed it. Sounds like you're the wise one in this situation.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:11665


05/17/2021 1:45 PM  
Alicia

I believe the BOD should have an up to date mailing list of all owners. That said, why do I get the feeling you are going to keep busting the PM's and Presidents chops on stuff?
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8729


05/17/2021 5:16 PM  
Wait, Terry PA, in most, maybe, all states, members (owners) do have access via written request to the addresses of all members.

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:8729


05/17/2021 5:27 PM  
Alicia. Setting aside the email/phone issues. I think Augustin is right and that your chances aren't good if you pursue this as a legal matter.

Do you have any support from your fellow board members to demand with your votes at board meetings that all members agree to follow your governing docs? Can you get the Board to pass a motion that all communication with your HOA attorney must be approved by the Board? Can you put these matters on your Board's agenda?

Your quote "...the board (the residents..." is telling. If you cannot get board support to dampen the Prez's dictatorial ways, your life will be very tough.
BillH10
(Texas)

Posts:783


05/17/2021 6:57 PM  
In Texas, and I suspect in many other states, property ownership is a matter of public record through the Central Appraisal District of the county or similar agency and jurisdiction.

In our experience, the Association will provide no less, and no more, information regarding owner names and addresses than is available through sources accessible to the public.

We live in Collin County, TX. The Collin County Central Appraisal District (CAD) maintains a very user friendly website and portal into the property records. Those records do not, however, provide telephone number and email contact information. And, in some cases, such as LEOs and abused persons, the County may legally be asked to redact the name and address.

As a courtesy, if asked, we provide owners a spreadsheet with the names and addresses found on the CAD website and no other information. If owner A wishes to contact owner B, and is reticent about knocking on the door, we will send owner B a note telling them owner A wishes to contact them and ask if they would like us to provide email or telephone contact information.

Here is a philosophical question for everyone this Tuesday evening:

There is no question, at least in Texas, owners may request to review almost all Association records. There are a few exceptions.

As the management company, we compile the records we need to perform our responsibilities under our contract, which includes gathering and compiling email and telephone contact information. And other information--mainly emergency contact and vehicle information,

So, are those records (email and telephone, emergency and vehicle) owned by the Association or the management company? If the latter, the records do not have to be made available for owner review, any more than we are required to allow an owner to have access to our accounting and record keeping systems.
MaxB4
(California)

Posts:1601


05/17/2021 7:28 PM  
I have been told, by an association's legal counsel, that any information our system produces on behalf of the client, is the property of the client. An association or any of its members have legal access to the system only the product it produces.
TerryS6
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:13


05/18/2021 4:29 AM  
Kerry,
Side-note:
I think you are correct. In our situation, the topic got a little heated. Landlords tried
to withhold contact information re their tenants from the Board. The compromise was to
keep this information confidential. Public tax records reveal ownership, but not tenant
information. We needed the landlords cooperation to obtain the information.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:2599


05/18/2021 4:29 AM  
Posted By BillH10 on 05/17/2021 6:57 PM


... snip ...

Here is a philosophical question for everyone this Tuesday evening:

There is no question, at least in Texas, owners may request to review almost all Association records. There are a few exceptions.

As the management company, we compile the records we need to perform our responsibilities under our contract, which includes gathering and compiling email and telephone contact information. And other information--mainly emergency contact and vehicle information,

So, are those records (email and telephone, emergency and vehicle) owned by the Association or the management company? If the latter, the records do not have to be made available for owner review, any more than we are required to allow an owner to have access to our accounting and record keeping systems.



Not a lawyer, etc. etc....

But my take on it is that this similar to an employee who uses and manipulates data belonging to the employer. This data does not become the employee's property as a result. See legal definitions of "work product". Also see confidentiality agreements prohibiting employees from taking work product with them to a new employer.

Your company would have no access to some of this information (ie the stuff that is not public record) if you were not under contract. You are providing professional services - you are not providing the data. However, you may be providing particular formatting produced by proprietary software. This formatting does belong to the management company, and is under no obligation to give the association access to their information in this format. Paper records, or spreadsheet format using one of the widely available products, would fulfill a legal request for information.

So this is pretty clear to me: association owns the data. But I'm sure courts somewhere will disagree with me. :-)
TerryS6
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:13


05/18/2021 5:09 AM  
To All:

Very interesting comments! Here in Pa. a bundle of laws "Title-68" covers condominiums, co-ops and
planned communities. It does not address the issue of privacy re contact information.

Seems that each of us have our own personal and professional standards in the matter. Would like
to know if associations for property managers have developed professional guidelines aka ethical
standards to follow.

There is a clause in our property managers contract re maintaining an accurate census. But, how the
information is to be used and who should have access is an open question.
MichaelS56
(Minnesota)

Posts:300


05/18/2021 12:46 PM  
Our Association produces a Homeowner directory that is given to every owner. If you do not want to release your information then that will be respected and not placed in the directory other that name and address.
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