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Subject: Security company using paper based difficult to remove stickers
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Author Messages
PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/06/2020 7:44 PM  
I live in an HOA in which the new security company is using paper based difficult to remove stickers on vehicles which are in violation of the rules. Homeowners I've spoken with who have gotten one of these stickers on their vehicle (or on a guest's vehicle) are outraged.

There are no warnings at all that such a sticker will be placed on any violating vehicle
The local law authorities have confirmed that such an act would under other circumstances constitute vandalism
There are plenty of warnings about towing, but none about the stickers. (this sets a precedent indicating if they will do something which would otherwise be illegal, they post some kind of written notice, sign or warning)

Note in the website what it says:
Scrape-It™ stickers use a strong adhesive. You'll need a blade to remove these. Cling-It™ stickers have a strong adhesive that sticks well, but removes cleanly.


https://www.myparkingpermit.com/no-parking-stickers
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/06/2020 7:49 PM  
I would try and be reasonable, but I would not consider difficult to remove notices placed on windshields a major issue.

If someone parking illegally told me they were outraged, I would probably giggle and tell to talk to the management company.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:3577


11/06/2020 7:58 PM  
I'm with George - if you don't want to deal with scraping the sticker off your cal, perhaps drivers should pay attention to where they're supposed to park.


Seems to me the threat of being towed would be enough of a reason to cooperate, but I guess your neighbors are stubborn. Serves them right.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/06/2020 8:03 PM  
Posted By PaulL12 on 11/06/2020 7:44 PM
I live in an HOA in which the new security company is using paper based difficult to remove stickers on vehicles which are in violation of the rules. Homeowners I've spoken with who have gotten one of these stickers on their vehicle (or on a guest's vehicle) are outraged.

There are no warnings at all that such a sticker will be placed on any violating vehicle
The local law authorities have confirmed that such an act would under other circumstances constitute vandalism
There are plenty of warnings about towing, but none about the stickers.
I know about these stickers. One of my former HOA/condos used them. They can be infuriating for the reasons you describe. The HOA/condo stopped using them, but I do not know exactly why.

In my opinion, and in the vein of what PaulL12 wrote, the stickers pose multiple problems, and yes, of a legal nature. I think the stickers are a punishment, and without any warning whatsoever. I would wager PaulL12's covenants state that fines are allowed, after notice and a reasonable opportunity to be heard. But I am sure they say nothing about these stickers being allowed.

How to stop the use of these stickers? Ask that the topic be placed on the agenda for one of the open board meetings, with your accompanying motion. The motion should be something like: I motion that the HOA cease to use these stickers, because they are a punishment administered without the required notice of a violation followed by a hearing.

During the discussion period, speak of how you think the stickers violate the Davis-Stirling statute and your HOA's governing documents.

A follow-up motion might be: I motion that a notice of a violation henceforth be placed on the windshields of all vehicles in violation. The notice will note the date, time, nature of the violation, vehicle license number, and an offer of a hearing prior to a fine of ___ dollars being imposed.

PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/06/2020 8:11 PM  
I'm with George - if you don't want to deal with scraping the sticker off your cal, perhaps drivers should pay attention to where they're supposed to park.


Seems to me the threat of being towed would be enough of a reason to cooperate, but I guess your neighbors are stubborn. Serves them right.

Unlike most condominium complexes, our outdoor parking is heavily underuse. The board, the association manager, the security company and numerous residents say the problem is the gross offenders, not the people who inadvertently leave their vehicle out overnight without a parking tag. But the latter get dinged with this sticker when they are not the problem. Other than the board, everyone I have spoken with in the community is outraged over this. How do you think such a thing should be handled if the board is in favor of making it acceptable to deface personal property in this manner but the bulk of homeowners are very much against it?
PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/06/2020 8:27 PM  
I know about these stickers. One of my former HOA/condos used them. They can be infuriating for the reasons you describe. The HOA/condo stopped using them, but I do not know exactly why.

In my opinion, and in the vein of what PaulL12 wrote, the stickers pose multiple problems, and yes, of a legal nature. I think the stickers are a punishment, and without any warning whatsoever. I would wager PaulL12's covenants state that fines are allowed, after notice and a reasonable opportunity to be heard. But I am sure they say nothing about these stickers being allowed.

Correct, they say nothing about these stickers being allowed. When the board was asked about it, they said the stickers being used were easy to peel off without any residue left over (which I know through first hand experience is an outright lie).

[quote[How to stop the use of these stickers? Ask that the topic be placed on the agenda for one of the open board meetings, with your accompanying motion. The motion should be something like: I motion that the HOA cease to use these stickers, because they are a punishment administered without the required notice of a violation followed by a hearing.
Agreed, but what do you mean at the end with 'followed by a hearing'?

During the discussion period, speak of how you think the stickers violate the Davis-Stirling statute and your HOA's governing documents.

I'm having a tough time finding anything about this on the Davis-Stirling website. https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Enforcement-Menu
Perhaps you have an idea where in their website I could find this.

A follow-up motion might be: I motion that a notice of a violation henceforth be placed on the windshields of all vehicles in violation. The notice will note the date, time, nature of the violation, vehicle license number, and an offer of a hearing prior to a fine of ___ dollars being imposed.

That's good, but it doesn't add if the notice will be one of those difficult to remove stickers or not.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/06/2020 8:38 PM  
Posted By PaulL12 on 11/06/2020 8:27 PM

Agreed, but what do you mean at the end with 'followed by a hearing'?
Fines are allowed only if the accused is informed of what he or she did wrong and also offered a chance to attend a hearing where he or she gets to state his or her side of whatever is in dispute. For example, suppose an Owner gets a notice on her windshield saying she was illegally parked. The reason she was illegally parked was on account of some kind of an emergency. At the hearing, the board may say, okay. We are not going to fine you. You have a warning, though.
Posted By PaulL12 on 11/06/2020 8:27 PM

During the discussion period, speak of how you think the stickers violate the Davis-Stirling statute and your HOA's governing documents.

I'm having a tough time finding anything about this on the Davis-Stirling website. https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Enforcement-Menu
Perhaps you have an idea where in their website I could find this.

Start here:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5855#axzz2CgHrcBrn

Then proceed to here:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Due-Process-Defined

Posted By PaulL12 on 11/06/2020 8:27 PM

A follow-up motion might be: I motion that a notice of a violation henceforth be placed on the windshields of all vehicles in violation. The notice will note the date, time, nature of the violation, vehicle license number, and an offer of a hearing prior to a fine of ___ dollars being imposed.

That's good, but it doesn't add if the notice will be one of those difficult to remove stickers or not.
Golly. Do you think you should change the wording then?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/06/2020 8:40 PM  
You think the governing docs should talk about sticker adhesives?
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/06/2020 8:50 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 11/06/2020 8:40 PM
You think the governing docs should talk about sticker adhesives?
I do not.

What is important is what punishments the governing documents do authorize. If they authorize fines, then fine pursuant to statute, the gov docs and case law.

If the governing documents authorize only fines as punishment, then sticker adhesives with the potential to damage vehicles, or unreasonably inconvenience owners, are off the table. And I do not mean just any sticker adhesive. I am talking about the type where one has to use a sharp tool to get if off.

I scraped a highly adherent registration sticker off my windshield once. The sticker was not coming off no way no how otherwise. My effort to remove the sticker scratched the windshield glass.

Like I said, at one of my former HOA/condos, stickers were used, and they were a royal PITA to get off.
PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/06/2020 9:14 PM  
I did find those two Davis-Stirling sites while scouring around their site. But I do not feel they are pertinent. The board considers those stickers 'warnings' and when one complains about them, the board simply says, "would you preferred it if we towed the vehicle". The board adds that the stickers are easy to peel off and that any damage caused to vehicles is due to the person not peeling off the sticker properly. However, the board contradicts themselves by adding that such stickers are used rather than placing a slip under the windshield wiper so the vehicle owner will not use the excuse of "well, I didn't see any warnings". Now think about that. If by their admission the stickers are easy to peel off, why would they use this defense?
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/06/2020 9:27 PM  
Posted By PaulL12 on 11/06/2020 9:14 PM
I did find those two Davis-Stirling sites while scouring around their site. But I do not feel they are pertinent.
They're only pertinent if a majority of the board consists of people who can reason and understand the basics of the law.

I suggest you continue reading other threads here. I expect you will find that many directors find themselves up against board majorities who behave like your board's majority. Motions like I suggested will have no effect. Subsequently I think one is stuck with either (1) campaigning to elect directors who think like one thinks; (2) resigning and, as needed, going through the IDR et cetera process that California statute requires when there is a HOA dispute; (3) making peace with the reality that sometimes there are no solutions; or (4) moving.
PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/06/2020 9:30 PM  
I should add that there was damage to my vehicle and to other vehicles as a result of these stickers. I submitted a claim for reimbursement for the damage was initially denied, but have since filed an appeal.

Among the reasons I cited as justification for reimbursement:

- I was not properly notified that such stickers were being used > they said that notices we were changing to a different security were placed in a common area
- The stickers do not contain any contact information.
- The stickers do not contain any guidance on how to remove them without causing damage
- Homeowners were not notified of a process to remove such stickers
- They had switched to a different security company only about four weeks prior to the sticker being placed on my vehicle
- The HOA attorney said if the association had been using such stickers for some time then there wouldn't be a basis for reimbursement (read as it would be common knowledge that such stickers were being used)
- There is nothing in the governing documents that such damaging stickers will be used in any situation while a precedent has been set that if something will be done to a vehicle which is to the detriment of the user/owner, it is spelled out in the governing documents (e.g. towing).
- The attorney has said if such stickers are used, the association should spell it out in their governing documents.

I should add that the time from when I first filed this request until they actually had a meeting with me regarding it was some 4 to 5 months. When I asked why it took so long, they said, we already denied your request. When I asked when/how they informed me it was denied, they couldn't tell me.

I sense it is difficult to get others in this forum to believe me when I say I am dealing with a board which operates in a less than ethical manner, but it is clear to me their priority is not what is best for the community, but what costs them the least amount of time.
PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/06/2020 9:43 PM  
I suggest you continue reading other threads here.

I will do that. I am getting more of a sense this is a good resource.

I expect you will find that many directors find themselves up against board majorities who behave like your board's majority. Motions like I suggested will have no effect.

For many years, people were suggesting if I don't like it, join the board. But what good does that do if I vote in the interests of the homeowners while the other board members vote in the interests of ensuring they give up as little of their time as possible?

Subsequently I think one is stuck with either (1) campaigning to elect directors who think like one thinks

I've got something up my sleeve which is going to give them incentive to listen to me and hopefully side with myself and the body of the homeowners.

(2) resigning and, as needed, going through the IDR et cetera process that California statute requires when there is a HOA dispute;

??? There is nothing which says a board member can't go through the IDR process. Furthermore, I filed several IDRs before I was a board member. And I should add, the DS website says these should be addressed in 30 days, it took over 120 days for them to be addressed.

(3) making peace with the reality that sometimes there are no solutions; or (4) moving.

You are leaving out the option of stirring up interest among other homeowners. As of January 1 this year, a homeowner can reach out to other homeowners regarding association related issues via email. And the homeowners lists must be provided upon request.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:9714


11/06/2020 9:46 PM  
How is this the HOA's fault? It is the security contractor the HOA hired that does the practice. The use of these stickers are punitive and part safety. Safety because don't need this type of stuff flying all over the place.

I'd also look at methods of getting the stickers off. It could be other options besides scraping off. Soaking it may be an option in a solution like goof off.

We had to put on a metal sticker on our windshields at a job worked at. If you sold your car, it had to be scraped off and the pieces brought into the security office. This was proof you no longer had a tagged vehicle. It sucked but so does alot of things.

Former HOA President
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/07/2020 5:10 AM  
Sounds like these window stickers are a great deterrent.

This is now on my list of ankle biting.

And, yeah, I remove tough adhesives from boats and windshield all the time.
ChrisE8
(New York)

Posts:225


11/07/2020 5:56 AM  
Posted By PaulL12 on 11/06/2020 7:44 PM
I live in an HOA in which the new security company is using paper based difficult to remove stickers on vehicles which are in violation of the rules. Homeowners I've spoken with who have gotten one of these stickers on their vehicle (or on a guest's vehicle) are outraged.

There are no warnings at all that such a sticker will be placed on any violating vehicle
The local law authorities have confirmed that such an act would under other circumstances constitute vandalism
There are plenty of warnings about towing, but none about the stickers. (this sets a precedent indicating if they will do something which would otherwise be illegal, they post some kind of written notice, sign or warning)

Note in the website what it says:
Scrape-It™ stickers use a strong adhesive. You'll need a blade to remove these. Cling-It™ stickers have a strong adhesive that sticks well, but removes cleanly.


https://www.myparkingpermit.com/no-parking-stickers




Well, one simple solution to this is simply not to violate the rules.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1047


11/07/2020 6:26 AM  
The stickers are supposed to be difficult to remove. The task of removing them serves as a reminder not to park improperly.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/07/2020 6:55 AM  
Posted By PaulL12 on 11/06/2020 9:30 PM
I should add that there was damage to my vehicle and to other vehicles as a result of these stickers. I submitted a claim for reimbursement for the damage was initially denied, but have since filed an appeal.

Among the reasons I cited as justification for reimbursement:

- I was not properly notified that such stickers were being used > they said that notices we were changing to a different security were placed in a common area
- The stickers do not contain any contact information.
- The stickers do not contain any guidance on how to remove them without causing damage
- Homeowners were not notified of a process to remove such stickers
- They had switched to a different security company only about four weeks prior to the sticker being placed on my vehicle
- The HOA attorney said if the association had been using such stickers for some time then there wouldn't be a basis for reimbursement (read as it would be common knowledge that such stickers were being used)
- There is nothing in the governing documents that such damaging stickers will be used in any situation while a precedent has been set that if something will be done to a vehicle which is to the detriment of the user/owner, it is spelled out in the governing documents (e.g. towing).
- The attorney has said if such stickers are used, the association should spell it out in their governing documents.

I should add that the time from when I first filed this request until they actually had a meeting with me regarding it was some 4 to 5 months. When I asked why it took so long, they said, we already denied your request. When I asked when/how they informed me it was denied, they couldn't tell me.


-- Can you elaborate on the damage the sticker did to your vehicle? How much money did it cost to repair this damage? If push comes to shove, this is what a court will want to know.

-- What do you mean when you wrote "they said, we already denied your request"? The board denied your request for a hearing? Or the board denied ____ ? (Please fill in the blank.)

-- The 30-day requirement you mention above may be in your governing documents (and so have the force of law). But all that Davis-Stirling specifies is that whatever IDR procedure the HOA uses must be "expeditious" and provide for "prompt deadlines." The several months that go by is a concern but you do not have a slam dunk case on the point yet.

-- What the HOA attorney said about the stickers being used for many years vs. only recently having been used as a punishment (AFAIC) is consistent with my understanding of how a 'course of conduct' becomes a de facto membership and board approved rule yada when said course goes on for many years with no one complaining.

-- Yes, a director can certainly go through the IDR et cetera process. However the Board will be in its rights to make your service as a director a bit more difficult. In my experience, often one is in a better position to pursue a specific board abuse when one is not a director.

-- Riling up the membership is fine but I do not feel it will be effective in this instance except to the extent it causes a change, at the next election, in who controls the board majority.
JohnT38
(South Carolina)

Posts:403


11/07/2020 6:58 AM  
In our community, almost all of the parking violations that occur are visitors that have come to see one of the residents. What bothers me about these types of stickers is that you are punishing an innocent guest who more than likely doesn't know what hours parking is allowed on the streets. It's the resident and not the guest that should be 'punished'. Because of this issue we have recently switched to a less evasive type of sticker.

For owners that know of the rules and still chose to park illegally, I understand the use of these types of stickers.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/07/2020 7:22 AM  
Posted By JohnT38 on 11/07/2020 6:58 AM

For owners that know of the rules and still chose to park illegally, I understand the use of these types of stickers.
Do you also feel that an individual owner who believes the board has violated an obvious rule has the right to put a hard-to-remove sticker on their vehicles, as a way of informing the board of its violations and also as punishment?

In my opinion the Board is promoting lawlessness by failing to give any notice whatsoever that it will use hard-to-remove stickers as a means of enforcing the parking rules. Clearly the stickers are not about merely informing the owner of a parking violation.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:3577


11/07/2020 7:30 AM  
Posted By PaulL12 on 11/06/2020 8:11 PM
I'm with George - if you don't want to deal with scraping the sticker off your cal, perhaps drivers should pay attention to where they're supposed to park.


Seems to me the threat of being towed would be enough of a reason to cooperate, but I guess your neighbors are stubborn. Serves them right.

Unlike most condominium complexes, our outdoor parking is heavily underuse. The board, the association manager, the security company and numerous residents say the problem is the gross offenders, not the people who inadvertently leave their vehicle out overnight without a parking tag. But the latter get dinged with this sticker when they are not the problem. Other than the board, everyone I have spoken with in the community is outraged over this. How do you think such a thing should be handled if the board is in favor of making it acceptable to deface personal property in this manner but the bulk of homeowners are very much against it?



How do you "inadvertently leave your car out overnight without a parking tag?" It's one thing if you're talking about a visitor who may not know the rules, but the people who live there should know. I've seen your other post about your board colleagues - to me, this is trivial compared to that, but since you asked, here's one person's opinion.

You really need to focus on the parking offenses, so if you know who the gross offenders are, the board should go after them. If they're part of the group howling about the sticker, advise them of their constant thumbing of the rules, and tell them next time, the car will be towed. Towing cars is another issue so you may want to talk to the security company and a towing company, if necessary, about what you can and can't do. PUt another way, your choices are (1) comply with the rules (2) get out some GooGone and a razor to scrape the sticker off your window or (3) pay a towing fee. Which would they prefer - scraping off a sticker or going through the drama of paying a towing fee?

Next, put up some signs and put an article in your newsletter and website, if you have one, reminding everyone of the rules. Ask the security company about using a sticker that's not as difficult to remove - but remember, the sticker is there to remind people in a big way what they're supposed to do. You don't want folks to scrape away and then turn around and park in the spot once more.

Long term solution - rethink the outdoor parking spot. If you're seeing more and more cars there, maybe the real problem is people have more cars but nowhere to put them. Depending on the number of units and parking spaces, maybe it's time to designate part of the lot as resident use only, issue ONE tag to each unit that can be used on another vehicle. It's up to the homeowners on how it's used - they can use it for their second car or a visitor (it's their responsibility to get the tag returned).

As for the rest of the lot, you can continue with the no overnight parking rule if you like, along with the sticker (your obligation is to the people who live there and pay assessments). The people who live there need to tell their visitors what the rules are - my cousin's condo community has a rule about not leaving the car in the same spot for 24 hours, so what folks usually do is make sure they move it to another location every 8 hours or so. It's a bit of a pain, but it beats the hell out of getting the car towed. Or you can skip enforcing the rule altogether, or at least have the security company watch for junk cars or cars with expired plates - those are the type of problems you want to control quickly and if people squawk over their hooptie's window having a hard to remove sticker, oh well.
KellyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:1575


11/07/2020 7:30 AM  
Posted By PaulL12 on 11/06/2020 7:44 PM
I live in an HOA in which the new security company is using paper based difficult to remove stickers on vehicles which are in violation of the rules. Homeowners I've spoken with who have gotten one of these stickers on their vehicle (or on a guest's vehicle) are outraged.

There are no warnings at all that such a sticker will be placed on any violating vehicle
The local law authorities have confirmed that such an act would under other circumstances constitute vandalism
There are plenty of warnings about towing, but none about the stickers. (this sets a precedent indicating if they will do something which would otherwise be illegal, they post some kind of written notice, sign or warning)

Note in the website what it says:
Scrape-It™ stickers use a strong adhesive. You'll need a blade to remove these. Cling-It™ stickers have a strong adhesive that sticks well, but removes cleanly.


https://www.myparkingpermit.com/no-parking-stickers




Paul,

You're finding problems with everything your HOA board is doing in your community. Please slow down or you'll drive yourself crazy. You're turning over every proverbial rock if you're complaining about parking stickers (while complaining in your other thread that your HOA board is completely disinterested in community parking issues).

GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/07/2020 7:32 AM  
Promoting lawlessness?

Sorry, but I don’t believe this to be true.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:3577


11/07/2020 7:35 AM  
Not only that, but you're also howling because YOUR car also received a tag. Would you be this upset if the problem was only happening to other people? You are a board member and should try to set an example because you're a leader in the community (why should others follow the rules if the board members won't do it either?) What did you think would happen when you parked your car where it wasn't supposed to be?
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/07/2020 7:38 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 11/07/2020 7:32 AM
Promoting lawlessness?

Sorry, but I don’t believe this to be true.
When the Board does not follow the governing documents for notice and penalties, why should an Owner?

I am operating on the premise that these stickers have either caused meaningful damage or are a PITA to remove. If you reject this premise, then I think this is a different issue.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/07/2020 7:40 AM  
And I am approaching from the perspective that this is ankle biting - and time burning.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/07/2020 7:40 AM  
Posted By KellyM3 on 11/07/2020 7:30 AM
You're finding problems with everything your HOA board is doing in your community.
Do you think it is lawful for a board to impose a penalty on those people who refuse to vote in elections when said penalty has no basis in the governing documents?
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/07/2020 7:43 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 11/07/2020 7:40 AM
And I am approaching from the perspective that this is ankle biting - and time burning.
I think you should hear out the OP concerning (1) what the cost was to repair the damage to his vehicle from the sticker; and (2) why it appears the Board is not complying with the IDR process prescribed by statute and/or his governing documents.

Until then, I think "ankle biting" in this thread is you repeatedly insisting that the OP is "ankle biting."
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/07/2020 7:45 AM  
I’m thinking perhaps the OP could have overstated the $50 fine as a “threat.”

Perhaps, since this wasn’t apparently voted on by the board that they were seeking some way to motivate owners and this was just one of the options being discussed?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/07/2020 7:52 AM  
Maybe - but this sounds like the stickers were placed on windshields and those getting the stickers don’t know how to remove the stickers - but they are competent enough drivers to park where the association prohibits parking.

I don’t think there has been damage done - but would be fun to see this go to court for a formal ruling on “Stickers and the Law.”
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/07/2020 7:55 AM  
If PaulL12 does not indicate a dollar amount of damage (from the hard-to-remove sticker), with an explanation of this dollar amount, that would hold up in court (based on my experience), then my position is going to alter some.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:9714


11/07/2020 8:03 AM  
Let's point out that the stickers did NOT damage but the REMOVAL of the sticker did. Stickers don't harm anything but do their job of notification of violation. If you damage your vehicle removing it isn't anyone else's fault except your own.

Sorry people but your going to find a lack of personal responsibility here in the long run. I can caudle someone so long but after that big boy pants have to be put on... You take a razor blade to a sticker on your paint job and complain about damages, then how else can it not be on you? Especially since many times they do offer a non-damaging alternative to removal. It may cost you paying the fine for them to use the "solution".

It's like getting booted and driving off with the boot device... If you paid the ticket they take off the boot with the right tools. You drive off with the boot on, then those repairs are all on you...

Former HOA President
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7660


11/07/2020 1:30 PM  
Follow Augie's advice and place this matter on the next open board meeting agenda. Make sure that the (required) posted agenda makes clear what your agenda item is, e.g., "replace paper parking stickers with xxx." This will bring owners to the open meeting.

Look, Paul, based on this post and your other one, I'm thinking that as a board member you have not placed anything on the board agenda. Your are aware, right?, that in CA HOA boards may NOT make decisions on anything unless it was posted on the meeting agenda 4 days in advance of your HOA meeting. You haven't done this either because you don't know that you should/can, or the board president won't let you?? I have a feeling there's something wrong with the way meetings are being held in your HOA.


It almost sounds like you and maybe other owners expect directors to act on the spot AT meetings on items that are not on the agenda.

Is your prop. mgr. certified and does s/he attend meetings? If certified, PMs usually can advise board on how to conduct meetings.


So... when Owners complain during open forum about anything, the Board, which includes you, should say let's put this on next month's agenda. If it's matter that interests you, you could offer to research it.

I asked on your other post: What do your CC&Rs say are the MAIN responsibilities of the Board (beyond paying bills, roving utilities, ins., etc)?

I'm not sure what George means when he's always talking about "ankle-biting." Petty inconsequential things?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:10130


11/07/2020 1:40 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 11/07/2020 1:30 PM
Follow Augie's advice and place this matter on the next open board meeting agenda. Make sure that the (required) posted agenda makes clear what your agenda item is, e.g., "replace paper parking stickers with xxx." This will bring owners to the open meeting.

Look, Paul, based on this post and your other one, I'm thinking that as a board member you have not placed anything on the board agenda. Your are aware, right?, that in CA HOA boards may NOT make decisions on anything unless it was posted on the meeting agenda 4 days in advance of your HOA meeting. You haven't done this either because you don't know that you should/can, or the board president won't let you?? I have a feeling there's something wrong with the way meetings are being held in your HOA.


It almost sounds like you and maybe other owners expect directors to act on the spot AT meetings on items that are not on the agenda.

Is your prop. mgr. certified and does s/he attend meetings? If certified, PMs usually can advise board on how to conduct meetings.


So... when Owners complain during open forum about anything, the Board, which includes you, should say let's put this on next month's agenda. If it's matter that interests you, you could offer to research it.

I asked on your other post: What do your CC&Rs say are the MAIN responsibilities of the Board (beyond paying bills, roving utilities, ins., etc)?

I'm not sure what George means when he's always talking about "ankle-biting." Petty inconsequential things?




Well said, especially that the BOD cannot stop and make everything happen then and there> they need a reasonable amount of time so as not to be rushed into hasty decisions. The OP seems to want haste over quality.
PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/07/2020 8:39 PM  
That is a straw man. The question isn't whether or not one should violate the rules, but whether or not it is OK to use such stickers if the homeowners aren't informed of this intention in the governing documents.
PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/07/2020 8:41 PM  
Do you feel it is appropriate to use such stickers without providing ample warning to the homeowners via some sort of governing document?
PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/07/2020 8:59 PM  
-- Can you elaborate on the damage the sticker did to your vehicle? How much money did it cost to repair this damage? If push comes to shove, this is what a court will want to know.

Not worth it to go to court over this. The amount of damage is under $1000 and hasn't been repaired yet. Damage was caused during removal of the sticker.

-- What do you mean when you wrote "they said, we already denied your request"? The board denied your request for a hearing? Or the board denied ____ ? (Please fill in the blank.)

When the hearing with the board occurred some 3 to 4 months after I filed the IDR and some 5 to 6 months after I requested a reimbursement, I asked why it took so long for them to respond. They said "we already denied your request", yet I never received any notice saying it had been denied. I actually filed about ten IDRs at once due to their failure to get back to me on numerous queries. Might it be worth my effort to file another IDR for their failure to respond to my other IDRs in a timely manner?

-- The 30-day requirement you mention above may be in your governing documents (and so have the force of law). But all that Davis-Stirling specifies is that whatever IDR procedure the HOA uses must be "expeditious" and provide for "prompt deadlines." The several months that go by is a concern but you do not have a slam dunk case on the point yet.

Agreed. Expeditious and prompt are both subjective. The 30 days is spelled out in the Davis-Stirling site. https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/IDR-ADR-Comparison

-- What the HOA attorney said about the stickers being used for many years vs. only recently having been used as a punishment (AFAIC) is consistent with my understanding of how a 'course of conduct' becomes a de facto membership and board approved rule yada when said course goes on for many years with no one complaining.

Makes sense. But they had been using a new security company for only 3 to 4 weeks when the defacement occurred. I was never adequately notified that they were changing security companies and never notified that they would be using such stickers. They responded by saying it was posted in a common area such that if I didn't see the notice, that was my problem.

-- Yes, a director can certainly go through the IDR et cetera process. However the Board will be in its rights to make your service as a director a bit more difficult. In my experience, often one is in a better position to pursue a specific board abuse when one is not a director.

I have not been given any duties as a board member. I am only asked to approve things via email (however, I have heard that approvals or votes can't be done via email). And since they only need a quorum (or majority of board members), I don't really have to do anything. But it carries weight when speaking or writing to other homeowners.

-- Riling up the membership is fine but I do not feel it will be effective in this instance except to the extent it causes a change, at the next election, in who controls the board majority.

Good point. But since this board makes decisions based on what will cost them the least amount of time and not what is in the best interests of the homeowners, the winning solution would be to see that continuing the practice they are doing costs them more time than discontinuing it.
PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/07/2020 9:04 PM  
In our community, almost all of the parking violations that occur are visitors that have come to see one of the residents. What bothers me about these types of stickers is that you are punishing an innocent guest who more than likely doesn't know what hours parking is allowed on the streets. It's the resident and not the guest that should be 'punished'. Because of this issue we have recently switched to a less evasive type of sticker.

For owners that know of the rules and still chose to park illegally, I understand the use of these types of stickers.

What about homeowners who inadvertently violate the parking rules? Our rules are such that this could easily occur - and often does. There is about a 10% to 20% usage rate (overnight and during weekdays) of the outdoor parking spots such that this kind of tagging is IMO a waste of resources.
PaulL12
(California)

Posts:22


11/07/2020 9:20 PM  
How do you "inadvertently leave your car out overnight without a parking tag?" It's one thing if you're talking about a visitor who may not know the rules, but the people who live there should know. I've seen your other post about your board colleagues - to me, this is trivial compared to that, but since you asked, here's one person's opinion.

Simple. Your guest is visiting and for their safety/security they park in your garage and you move your car into visitor parking. You are certain they will leave prior to the time parking tags become required. Romantic activity develops and continues beyond the time parking tags become required. I could come up with other scenarios, but I am sure you get the picture.

You really need to focus on the parking offenses, so if you know who the gross offenders are, the board should go after them.

They do go after the gross offenders. And it is the gross offenders which are their concern. But the rules are written such that the minor offender gets nabbed - even though our parking usage rates are around 10-20% overnight and around 20-30% during a weekday.

If they're part of the group howling about the sticker, advise them of their constant thumbing of the rules, and tell them next time, the car will be towed. Towing cars is another issue so you may want to talk to the security company and a towing company, if necessary, about what you can and can't do. PUt another way, your choices are (1) comply with the rules (2) get out some GooGone and a razor to scrape the sticker off your window or (3) pay a towing fee. Which would they prefer - scraping off a sticker or going through the drama of paying a towing fee?

This is the way the board presents it - either a difficult to remove sticker or a tow. But when usage rates are seldom above 10-20%, what is the logic of towing or defacing? When usage rates are so low, no one is being denied the right to park.

Next, put up some signs and put an article in your newsletter and website, if you have one, reminding everyone of the rules. Ask the security company about using a sticker that's not as difficult to remove - but remember, the sticker is there to remind people in a big way what they're supposed to do. You don't want folks to scrape away and then turn around and park in the spot once more.

IMO, that is relevant if we are well above 90% capacity in visitor parking. But we are at about 10-20% overnight.

Long term solution - rethink the outdoor parking spot. If you're seeing more and more cars there, maybe the real problem is people have more cars but nowhere to put them. Depending on the number of units and parking spaces, maybe it's time to designate part of the lot as resident use only, issue ONE tag to each unit that can be used on another vehicle. It's up to the homeowners on how it's used - they can use it for their second car or a visitor (it's their responsibility to get the tag returned).

I proposed selling extra visitor tags, but the board angrily rejected this - even though it would have brought in more revenue.

As for the rest of the lot, you can continue with the no overnight parking rule if you like, along with the sticker (your obligation is to the people who live there and pay assessments). The people who live there need to tell their visitors what the rules are - my cousin's condo community has a rule about not leaving the car in the same spot for 24 hours, so what folks usually do is make sure they move it to another location every 8 hours or so.

This is the type of gross offender our HOA is concerned with. But they nail the minor offenders as well - when usage rates overnight are around 10-20%.

It's a bit of a pain, but it beats the hell out of getting the car towed. Or you can skip enforcing the rule altogether, or at least have the security company watch for junk cars or cars with expired plates - those are the type of problems you want to control quickly and if people squawk over their hooptie's window having a hard to remove sticker, oh well.

Precisely my point. Why waste resources on vehicles which haven't posed a problem and aren't gross offenders. It is a sign of laziness on the board that they don't wish to adjust the rules accordingly or to reach out to homeowners to see what they want.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/08/2020 7:00 AM  
Posted By PaulL12 on 11/07/2020 8:59 PM

Not worth it to go to court over this. The amount of damage is under $1000 and hasn't been repaired yet. Damage was caused during removal of the sticker.
If I were in your shoes and felt strongly about this, then I would be reviewing the davis-stirling.com sites; the applicable stautes; and the HOA's procedures for grievances for how much IDR and ADR I had to do before filing a lawsuit against the HOA for the cost of the damage in small claims court. Why? Because this might be the easiest way to cause change. This assumes you actually had to pay out of pocket a contractor or similar for the damage. (That is, one may not bill for one's own labor to fix the damage.)
Posted By PaulL12 on 11/07/2020 8:59 PM
Might it be worth my effort to file another IDR for their failure to respond to my other IDRs in a timely manner?
I would be checking the Davis-Stirling site et cetera to make sure the HOA had done what is is supposed to do and then elevate per the instructions there.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:9714


11/08/2020 7:27 AM  
I don't think he grasps the fully how a HOA operates. You can't turn a profit. Can only collect via dues or special assessments. These stickers and fines are punitive damages being caused to you.

I don't think the HOA is responsible for your damage when you removed the sticker. They didn't damage your vehicle when they put it on. It is the removal that causes the damage. It's like blaming someone for installing your door and you using a crowbar to open it instead of your keys.

Should read up and get a comprehension of how HOA's work. It is not how you want them to it's how they do.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/08/2020 9:03 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/08/2020 7:27 AM
These stickers and fines are punitive damages being caused to you.
"Punitive damages" have a specific meaning in the law. They are nothing like what you indicated above.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:4158


11/08/2020 1:18 PM  
Posted By SheliaH on 11/06/2020 7:58 PM
I'm with George - if you don't want to deal with scraping the sticker off your cal, perhaps drivers should pay attention to where they're supposed to park.

Ditto.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:10130


11/08/2020 1:27 PM  
Some type notices made to be difficult to remove as part of the reminder not to do it again.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:10130


11/08/2020 1:28 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/08/2020 1:27 PM
Some type notices made to be difficult to remove as part of the reminder not to do it again.



ADD ON

Best put on the front windshield at driver eye height to make it more of a PIA.
BobbyL1
(California)

Posts:19


11/08/2020 4:26 PM  
We use these stickers. They're a PITA. We didn't realize how difficult these stickers are to remove until we started seeing them peeled off of windows and affixed to property signs (presumably as revenge).

Nowadays, we just peel back the corners of the sticker to make sure it makes good contact with the window just in those 4 spots. But we leave the rest of that wax paper backing on. The sticker can be removed by carefully peaking back just the corners.

Also, we don't resort to stickers until all other notices are ignored (we do paper flyer inserts on the windshield as a courtesy first-time notice and for first warnings).

The only time we stuck a sticker completely on a window since then was when someone abandoned a car in our guest parking and it was getting towed away after 30 days of not being moved at all. We wanted to make sure the sticker remained all the way to the tow yard.

This was a long way to say that I think associations can get the point across without doing much damage with stickers. It just takes some care and forethought.

Separately, it seemed like the OP wanted compensation for damage from the sticker? Yeh, definitely wouldn't be something our association would entertain. The trick is to use a $2.99 glass scraper from Home Depot and some Goo Gone for whatever remaining residue is there.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/08/2020 4:32 PM  
A sounds like this one done 😂

The Whining Lamp is out.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1047


11/08/2020 4:50 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/08/2020 1:28 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/08/2020 1:27 PM
Some type notices made to be difficult to remove as part of the reminder not to do it again.



ADD ON

Best put on the front windshield at driver eye height to make it more of a PIA.





That is actually illegal in some jurisdictions because it impedes the drivers view, even placing the sticker close to the drivers side mirror can be a no-no.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/08/2020 6:34 PM  
Really?

Where would one find the restrictions wrt placement, Let?
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Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Security company using paper based difficult to remove stickers



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