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Subject: Excesssive boat wake
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KevinT3
(California)

Posts:11


10/11/2020 6:55 PM  
I live in a large So Cal POA with a water sports lake. The POA permits property owners to use the lake for water sports recreation fishing skiing etc. A property owner can get a use permit for vessels that meet the POA requirements after completing a POA marine patrol inspection. The POA has a length restriction of vessels 21'6". There is no weight limit but the vessels may not use any wake enhancing devises. A POA member was cited by our marine patrol for creating an excessive wake. A reckless ticket for $500. The ticket was appealed by our appeals committee and sustained. The property owner can now appeal to the board of directors. Assuming the POA board sustains the ticket the boat owner is faced with selling the boat possibly at a reduced value do not being able to use on our lake or litigation. The boat is 2 years old the retail price of a new model is 170K.

There have been 46 same make and models used on our lake (retail sales that's over 5 million dollars for this manufacture.)

As far as we know none of the other same boat owners have been cited

The boat had no manufactures or owner installed wake enhancing devices. The marine patrol did not inspect for wake enhancing devices at he boat owners request.

The boat was cited for creating excessive wake at 11mph. The manufacture states this boat planes at 10mph.The boat was near the centerline of the lake as required by another rule. The marine patrol produced a photo clearly showing this

Our lake does not follow California guide lines for a vessel on plane to a swimming area moored boat, doc, etc. California law is 200ft. We have docs 30 ft from a boat on plane. We have mainly flat sea walls that do not dissipate wave action. It's very possible there is a class action lawsuit against our POA from lakefront owners. Lake front property owners have increased maintenance cost due to increased wake action. Lake front property owners are complaining due to increase repair and maintenance costs

This is a relatively new problem due to the increased boat traffic and increased boat weight. New boats weigh as much as 6000lb at 21'6".

So what do you do litigation? Should the owner Sue the POA and the board embers individually? The rule below:


No Reckless or Negligent Behavior Allowed while Operating a Motorized Boat
No person shall operate any vessel or any other water device in a reckless or negligent manner so as to endanger the life, limb or property of any person. This includes but is not limited to, riding on the bow, gunwale, or transom of a vessel underway, entering a marked swim area or creating excessive wakes
AugustinD


Posts:4153


10/11/2020 7:15 PM  
Posted By KevinT3 on 10/11/2020 6:55 PM
Assuming the POA board sustains the ticket the boat owner is faced with selling the boat possibly at a reduced value do not being able to use on our lake or litigation.
The above does not persuade me that the boat owner is going to suffer a financial loss that would qualify as "damages" the boat owner could subsequently successfully win in court.

So far, I think the evidence is strong that the HOA is being reasonable in its fine for the excessive wake caused by the owners of this boat.

Based on not insignificant experience with disputes of this nature, I think you have three options. Either:

1.
Pay the $500 fine and ensure the boat is not driven so as to cause an excessive wake;

or

2.
Seek Internal Dispute Resolution as described at davis-stirling.com. The cost is minimal. If you lose, you still have options you can exercise.

or

3.
Given your assets, after a few days you can ponder all the responses here. Then seek an attorney to review your HOA's governing documents and all the evidence. I estimate this review will cost about $5000. Said attorney can offer his or her opinion on whether to pursue this and your chances of prevailing (so you can keep your boat and drive it fast on a lake with shoreline problems). Unfortunately you will be rolling the dice on whether this attorney will be honest with you about the chances of prevailing. Some attorneys are, shall we say, overly optimistic. This is so they can run up their bills to you fighting a battle they know it is unlikely they can win on your behalf. Law firms and independent attorneys are businesses. Don't presume for a minute that they have your best interests in mind. They may. They may not.
KevinT3
(California)

Posts:11


10/11/2020 7:42 PM  
1.
Pay the $500 fine and ensure the boat is not driven so as to cause an excessive wake;

or

The boat weighs just over 5000lb dry so it's going to make a 5000lb boat wake. Even if you only travel at higher speeds say 25 to 35mph the wake produced to get to that speed and decelerating will be the same. The boat planes at 10mph. Boat capacity is 14 fuel capacity 46 gallons. The ticket was written with 2 people on board. I don't see a way to reduce the wake size.

Thanks for the input!
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/11/2020 8:44 PM  
I’m not understanding what kind of boat planes at 10 mph ... unless a very special boat, this seems pretty slow to plane.
KevinT3
(California)

Posts:11


10/12/2020 9:52 PM  
I’m not understanding what kind of boat planes at 10 mph ... unless a very special boat, this seems pretty slow to plane.

The new boats aimed towards board sports specifically wake surfing are basically tractors for the water. This boat according to the manufacture representative planes at 10mph.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/13/2020 6:44 AM  
I'm probably getting out of the know on wake boarding - can you link to a boat that planes at 10 mph? I haven't been able to find anything on this.
KevinT3
(California)

Posts:11


10/13/2020 12:38 PM  
I'm probably getting out of the know on wake boarding - can you link to a boat that planes at 10 mph? I haven't been able to find anything on this.
(wake surfing)

I don't think you will find published information on this. Why would a manufacture want to publish this? On a similar note what's an excessive wake? If you allow a 5000lb boat (dry weight) on your lake and compare it to boats from years past that weigh much less I guess the new boat wake would be excessive? I brought exactly this point to our FRC committee a few years back. At that time I suggested they might want to consider boat weight as well as length in the future prior to allowing boats permitted on our lake. This boat passed inspection by our marine patrol. Now the marine patrol has issued a citation to this boat owner and stated owner will be fined again if he produces excessive wake. The boat was near center of the lake on plane with no ballast and with only 2 occupants. The boat does not have to be on plane near the center of the lake unless pulling a skier I believe. Again close to 50 of same make and model on our lake. The future could be electric boats. Here is a 22' boat 5900lb dry weight


https://nautique.com/models/super-air-nautique-gs22e/overview
AugustinD


Posts:4153


10/13/2020 1:10 PM  
KevinT3, it seems to me that there are competing interests here: Owners of boats like yours vs. the need to protect the shoreline. What's a board to do? To answer the latter would require a close reading of the governing documents to see what the board is legally allowed to do. Maybe an amendment to the governing docs is needed. Maybe not.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/13/2020 2:47 PM  
Sorry, Kevin - I always get picky with numbers :-)
KevinT3
(California)

Posts:11


10/13/2020 6:35 PM  
it seems to me that there are competing interests here: Owners of boats like yours vs. the need to protect the shoreline. What's a board to do? To answer the latter would require a close reading of the governing documents to see what the board is legally allowed to do. Maybe an amendment to the governing docs is needed. Maybe not.

This is a culmination of problems. We have 1 property owners doc 30ft from high the speed zone. Not the 200ft California state lakes have. Many lake front properties are within a short distance to the high speed zone. We have flat sea walls versus stepped sea walls causing wave bounce back. We do not have weight restrictions on boats at this point. I've heard rumors of a class action lawsuit against POA by lakefront property owners for not following state guide lines. I know the marine patrol was instructed to give the citation from POA management. The marine patrol was given the opportunity to inspect the boat for ballast and refused stating it did not matter they were told to issue citation. My thought would be to limit boat weight and grandfather existing boats. That's just 1 part of the solution.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:660


10/13/2020 10:12 PM  
Posted By KevinT3 on 10/11/2020 6:55 PM
I live in a large So Cal POA with a water sports lake. The POA permits property owners to use the lake for water sports recreation fishing skiing etc. A property owner can get a use permit for vessels that meet the POA requirements after completing a POA marine patrol inspection. The POA has a length restriction of vessels 21'6". There is no weight limit but the vessels may not use any wake enhancing devises. A POA member was cited by our marine patrol for creating an excessive wake. A reckless ticket for $500. The ticket was appealed by our appeals committee and sustained. The property owner can now appeal to the board of directors. Assuming the POA board sustains the ticket the boat owner is faced with selling the boat possibly at a reduced value do not being able to use on our lake or litigation. The boat is 2 years old the retail price of a new model is 170K.

There have been 46 same make and models used on our lake (retail sales that's over 5 million dollars for this manufacture.)

As far as we know none of the other same boat owners have been cited

The boat had no manufactures or owner installed wake enhancing devices. The marine patrol did not inspect for wake enhancing devices at he boat owners request.

The boat was cited for creating excessive wake at 11mph. The manufacture states this boat planes at 10mph.The boat was near the centerline of the lake as required by another rule. The marine patrol produced a photo clearly showing this

Our lake does not follow California guide lines for a vessel on plane to a swimming area moored boat, doc, etc. California law is 200ft. We have docs 30 ft from a boat on plane. We have mainly flat sea walls that do not dissipate wave action. It's very possible there is a class action lawsuit against our POA from lakefront owners. Lake front property owners have increased maintenance cost due to increased wake action. Lake front property owners are complaining due to increase repair and maintenance costs

This is a relatively new problem due to the increased boat traffic and increased boat weight. New boats weigh as much as 6000lb at 21'6".

So what do you do litigation? Should the owner Sue the POA and the board embers individually? The rule below:


No Reckless or Negligent Behavior Allowed while Operating a Motorized Boat
No person shall operate any vessel or any other water device in a reckless or negligent manner so as to endanger the life, limb or property of any person. This includes but is not limited to, riding on the bow, gunwale, or transom of a vessel underway, entering a marked swim area or creating excessive wakes



Why did the boat owner refuse to allow the marine patrol to see if the has wake enhancing devices?
KevinT3
(California)

Posts:11


10/13/2020 10:59 PM  

Why did the boat owner refuse to allow the marine patrol to see if the has wake enhancing devices?

No the marine patrol refused to inspect for wake enhancing devices at the owners offering.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:660


10/14/2020 12:36 AM  
Posted By KevinT3 on 10/13/2020 10:59 PM

Why did the boat owner refuse to allow the marine patrol to see if the has wake enhancing devices?

No the marine patrol refused to inspect for wake enhancing devices at the owners offering.



Well, I understand the frustration. What is 'excessive' is at the whim of the POA.
AugustinD


Posts:4153


10/14/2020 8:42 AM  
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/14/2020 12:36 AM
What is 'excessive' is at the whim of the POA.
I think one needs to make an effort towards fairness. This HOA's lake is having shoreline erosion problems. If the HOA's governing docs taske the HOA with minimizing this erosion, then to say that "whim" is behind the HOA's reasoning does not appear to me to be justified.

I admit I do not like the vagueness of the covenant Kevin quoted. Also the role of state law here maybe adds another significant dimension to the conflicts. If erosion were not occurring, I think Kevin's objection to the covenant being enforced (as written) would have much more merit. Again, it's hard to tell whether the Board is on firm legal ground here. It may be. It may not be.
KevinT3
(California)

Posts:11


10/14/2020 12:40 PM  
AugustinD I appreciate your input! This really isn't that complicated.

The owner operates the boat in accordance to rules including no wake enhancing devices used. Now marine patrol states excessive wake (subjective) after the marine patrol inspected and approved usage of this boat in accordance to POA rules. Marine patrol was instructed by POA to issue citation. The committee that upheld the citation had 1 member that had a problem with the boat wake size. This committee member was a slalom skier in the past with a slalom boat that weighed around 2500lb, half the weight of the boat cited. Now the owner will appeal to board of directors. If the board upholds the citation I do not see how the other 47 or more same make and model boats would be ok to use. The board presidents son has the same boat.
AugustinD


Posts:4153


10/14/2020 7:21 PM  
KevinT3, I just do not have enough information. If you think the fine is unfair, then ask the HOA for IDR, as described at the davis-stirling.com site.
KevinT3
(California)

Posts:11


10/14/2020 7:28 PM  
AugustinD

KevinT3, I just do not have enough information. If you think the fine is unfair, then ask the HOA for IDR, as described at the davis-stirling.com site.

I will do thank you! I have a good grasp of the problem. I also have some solutions. I'm on a few committees, I can make suggestions
AugustinD


Posts:4153


10/14/2020 7:39 PM  
Posted By KevinT3 on 10/14/2020 7:28 PM
I have a good grasp of the problem. I also have some solutions. I'm on a few committees, I can make suggestions
Way to pitch in. Serving on a board sucks eggs, but someone has to do it. I think sometimes committees can make a difference, especially on what looks like a hot topic, with considerable financial implications for boat owners and shoreline home owners alike, like this. At a minimum, committee input might get people thinking about solutions sooner rather than later.

If requested, I can write your campaign spiel for getting on the board next year [wink!].

"Cigarette Boats for All! Vote for KevinT3!"
KevinT3
(California)

Posts:11


10/14/2020 9:38 PM  
AugustinD





Way to pitch in. Smile Serving on a board sucks eggs, but someone has to do it. I think sometime

Thank you for giving back! Rule #6 give back

https://succeedfeed.com/arnold-schwarzeneggers-6-rules-of-success/
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:10014


10/15/2020 12:44 PM  
I serve on my BOD as I do not some other Ahole running the place.
SueW6
(Michigan)

Posts:768


10/18/2020 5:25 AM  
Our small lake is considering trying to implement having an ordinance passed that would require these wake boats, whose sole purpose is to create wake boarding activities, to conduct their activity in the center of the lake only. Details are not final but “time and place“ ordinance can be implemented for a situation such as this.

Another problem is the kayak users who insist on stopping for long time I n the center of the travel lane that goes around the lake.
KevinT3
(California)

Posts:11


10/18/2020 7:03 AM  
SueW6
(Michigan)


Our small lake is considering trying to implement having an ordinance passed that would require these wake boats, whose sole purpose is to create wake boarding activities, to conduct their activity in the center of the lake only. Details are not final but “time and place“ ordinance can be implemented for a situation such as this.

(conduct their activity in the center)
If they do will there be opposition in your opinion? A boat owners is responsible for their wake. We already have a rule similar. The problem here is the center of the lake is a short distance from docs, sea walls etc. We do not allow wake enhancing devices to be used. We do not allow wake surfing either. The real problem here I see is when children are pulled. The tow boat goes along the perimeter of the lake below plane speed causing the largest wakes to impact property. The marine patrol is not enforcing the current rule that boats towing skiers must be within 75ft of center lake buoys. The manufacture is aware of our situation. This manufacture has over 5 million in retail sales on our small lake. Recently 2 more like models were registered.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:1029


10/18/2020 2:18 PM  
Why can't the boat owner install a stern mounted trolling motor to get the vessel in and out of the wake zone? Raise or remove the trolling motor once they're in open water, open the throttle and let er ripp.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:10014


10/18/2020 3:10 PM  
Posted By LetA on 10/18/2020 2:18 PM
Why can't the boat owner install a stern mounted trolling motor to get the vessel in and out of the wake zone? Raise or remove the trolling motor once they're in open water, open the throttle and let er ripp.



No need. They can simply run the engine9s)at idle/low to slowly move out.
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