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Subject: Enforceability of Pet Walking in Common Areas
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Author Messages
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:413


10/01/2020 9:31 PM  
CC&Rs state that pets must be walked off the property. Does this literally mean an owner may not physically walk their pet, presumably a dog, on the property, or does it refer to pets urinating/defecating?

This rule has never been enforced. Since it has never been enforced, it this rule unenforceable now?

I personally think it is silly that interpreting the rule strictly, you have to drive or carry your pet off the property before you can walk it.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:9648


10/02/2020 4:51 AM  
Wow... Anyways it means to keep them off people's yards. Maybe not use bathroom on common property etc... It doesn't mean you must pack your dog up and take them off site. Just don't need them cross yards. Use the sidewalk if you have one.

You and your neighbors can vote to get rid of rules that do not apply or make sense. Just follow the process on how to make those changes. You don't have to enforce something no one feels needs to be enforced just because "it is written".

Former HOA President
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:1315


10/02/2020 5:15 AM  
Literally, I think it means that your pet has to run around and do its business in your own yard, period. (I'm assuming this is an HOA. If it's a COA, then I hope the dogs learn how to use the toilet.)

In practice, even if the restriction is still enforceable after all these years, I don't think it's enforceable from a practical standpoint. If pets are allowed, then pet waste will be an issue - and I'm sure the board has more urgent items on their plates than Pet Poop Patrol.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/02/2020 7:30 AM  
Perhaps you could post the applicable portion of the CCRs that say this?
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:413


10/02/2020 7:31 AM  
I'm not a pet owner, so I thought I would ask what the literal meaning is. Property per the CC&Rs mean all the common property--not solely people's privately owned front yards.


GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/02/2020 7:32 AM  
And, perhaps if we read the language, we could determine the meaning - in context.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/02/2020 7:33 AM  
Or, is this hypothetical?
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:413


10/02/2020 7:34 AM  
Folks, just so you know, I will be ignoring GeorgeS21, as I believe that poster is a professional troll and agitator, since I already answer his question very clearly in my OP.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:413


10/02/2020 7:36 AM  
MODERATOR: IS THERE A WAY SOMEONE CAN BAN OR LIMIT GEORGES21's posting privileges.

This poster almost always trolls my posts and rarely anyone else with hypo or real and asks me to cite the CC&Rs. I am not annoyed psychologically by this person's posts, I just think this posters posts clutter this forum and are trolling and unproductive.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/02/2020 7:39 AM  
Again, nPB - you did not answer anything - all you did was post a situation - without providing the language from the related, and mentioned, document.

Clearly, there is enough evidence to question some of your posts.

I try and be fair, but when you continually ask questions, then refuse to provide the language related to the circumstance - I am suspicious of the circumstance - and, whether it is real or hypothetical.

Please do the work needed to pose these sorts of scenarios - and, then someone can reasonably, and with the information needed, provide input.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:413


10/02/2020 7:42 AM  
Folks, again GeorgeS21 always doubts my posts and rarely anyone else.

I clearly answered his question in my OP. I
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:1315


10/02/2020 7:45 AM  
Posted By NpB on 10/02/2020 7:31 AM
I

... snip ...
Property per the CC&Rs mean all the common property--not solely people's privately owned front yards.





Not necessarily. We're trying to interpret legalese, and we'd have to see exactly what your CC&Rs say (including how "property", "common area", and other things are defined, as well as the exact text of the pet restriction). Without that, we're just guessing.

In the absence of more info, I'm out...
AugustinD


Posts:4153


10/02/2020 7:46 AM  
Posted By NpB on 10/02/2020 7:42 AM
Folks, again GeorgeS21 always doubts my posts and rarely anyone else. I clearly answered his question in my OP.
No, you did not. One of the biggest sins of newbies (sic) like yourself is a failure to quote verbatim the covenant(s) in question. Once the covenant(s) in question are posted, this often changes the answers people post. Newbies often are not proficient in the lexicon of condos and HOAs. Several of the veterans here can cut through condo/HOA lexicon confusion like a knife through butter.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/02/2020 7:47 AM  
You did not ... please post the applicable portion, in appropriate context - ya know - paragraph numbers, sentences and paragraphs, etc.

Otherwise, I for one, believe you are simply:
1. making these up
2. restating something you might have read about other communities
3. misremembering what you read about your own community

Post the excerpt, please.

And, btw - I would think it OK for a one time visitor to stumble along as you have - but, you post often. And, even offer advice. And, even those infrequent visitors see the utility of actually reading the reference material, rather than a partial summary.
JohnT38
(South Carolina)

Posts:389


10/02/2020 7:48 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 10/02/2020 7:39 AM
Again, nPB - you did not answer anything - all you did was post a situation - without providing the language from the related, and mentioned, document.

Clearly, there is enough evidence to question some of your posts.

I try and be fair, but when you continually ask questions, then refuse to provide the language related to the circumstance - I am suspicious of the circumstance - and, whether it is real or hypothetical.

Please do the work needed to pose these sorts of scenarios - and, then someone can reasonably, and with the information needed, provide input.




I'm going to go one step further and say it's simply impossible to state with accuracy any opinion or conclusion when someone posts something as vague as "CC&Rs state that pets must be walked off the property". All of us have been around the block to know that interpreting HOA governing docs is difficult to say the least. Often times it ends up that what appears obvious is not.

If the OP wants a real answer than he/she should be willing to put in the minimal effort that is required to quote the actual CCR.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:413


10/02/2020 8:27 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/02/2020 7:46 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/02/2020 7:42 AM
Folks, again GeorgeS21 always doubts my posts and rarely anyone else. I clearly answered his question in my OP.
No, you did not. One of the biggest sins of newbies (sic) like yourself is a failure to quote verbatim the covenant(s) in question. Once the covenant(s) in question are posted, this often changes the answers people post. Newbies often are not proficient in the lexicon of condos and HOAs. Several of the veterans here can cut through condo/HOA lexicon confusion like a knife through butter.





With all due respect, I am not a newbie.
AugustinD


Posts:4153


10/02/2020 8:28 AM  
Posted By NpB on 10/02/2020 8:27 AM
With all due respect, I am not a newbie.
You are in my book.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:413


10/02/2020 8:29 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/02/2020 8:28 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/02/2020 8:27 AM
With all due respect, I am not a newbie.
You are in my book.





I think you are newbie as well.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:413


10/02/2020 8:30 AM  
Posted By JohnT38 on 10/02/2020 7:48 AM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 10/02/2020 7:39 AM
Again, nPB - you did not answer anything - all you did was post a situation - without providing the language from the related, and mentioned, document.

Clearly, there is enough evidence to question some of your posts.

I try and be fair, but when you continually ask questions, then refuse to provide the language related to the circumstance - I am suspicious of the circumstance - and, whether it is real or hypothetical.

Please do the work needed to pose these sorts of scenarios - and, then someone can reasonably, and with the information needed, provide input.




I'm going to go one step further and say it's simply impossible to state with accuracy any opinion or conclusion when someone posts something as vague as "CC&Rs state that pets must be walked off the property". All of us have been around the block to know that interpreting HOA governing docs is difficult to say the least. Often times it ends up that what appears obvious is not.

If the OP wants a real answer than he/she should be willing to put in the minimal effort that is required to quote the actual CCR.





Excuse me but that language is not vague. What don't you understand about that language?
AugustinD


Posts:4153


10/02/2020 8:35 AM  
Post the covenant(s) and quit wasting people's time.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:413


10/02/2020 8:36 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/02/2020 8:35 AM
Post the covenant(s) and quit wasting people's time.





If you don't like my post, then why do you respond?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/02/2020 8:41 AM  
Part of my reason for continuing this discussion is to make certain anyone reading these exchanges knows the difference between hypothetical nonsense, and actual situations that may relate to assisting them in resolution.

The threads provide a great audit trail!
AugustinD


Posts:4153


10/02/2020 8:43 AM  
Five hits come up when googling for the phrase "pets must be walked off the property." All are accompanied by express concerns for droppings/urination/odor.
TimM11


Posts:354


10/02/2020 9:12 AM  
The reason people ask to post the CC&Rs is because the specific wording is very important, along with definitions. It comes up a lot with things like parking, for example, when the definitions of certain vehicle types come into play.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7579


10/02/2020 9:20 AM  
With many others above, NpB, give us the actual citation--wordd-for-word-surrounded by quotation marks. Or we are not able to help.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7579


10/02/2020 9:20 AM  
With many others above, NpB, give us the actual citation--wordd-for-word-surrounded by quotation marks. Or we are not able to help.
JohnC77
(Washington)

Posts:207


10/02/2020 9:41 AM  
This is language from the Rules and Regulations of a former property.

5) Pets are allowed in the building elevators, hallways, lobby, stairways, and parking lot ONLY WHEN CARRIED IN THE ARMS OF THE OWNER OR TENANT. All pets must be carried from the owner’s Unit to the street (i.e., sidewalk). No pet is permitted to walk in the hallways, lobby, parking lot, or any other common area. An enclosed pet carriage with full covering that prevents any external contact (other than the carriage itself) may be used in lieu of the owner’s or tenant’s arms if necessary.
JohnC77
(Washington)

Posts:207


10/02/2020 9:41 AM  
4) Pets are not allowed in the inner courtyard, first floor recreation room, or any other recreational areas.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17008


10/02/2020 11:02 AM  
I'm tired of answering what if questions.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17008


10/02/2020 11:11 AM  
I will add this reality check.


The reality of HOA/COA living is that a board of directors can basically do what they want unless the membership is involved and does the check and balances on the board.

Until challenged, a board of directors may think that they are doing the right thing.

When challenged, a board may or may not change what they are doing.

If a board does not correct their error, the members then have the following options:

1) Gather support and remove/replace the board (via recall or at the next election)
2) Challenge the board via other channels:
If your State has an HOA/COA Ombudsman, make a complaint to them and/or
Speak with an attorney about legal options
3) Live with it
4) See the writing on the wall and move.


One is certainly free to reject this reality and replace it with their own.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:413


10/02/2020 4:14 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 10/02/2020 11:11 AM
I will add this reality check.


The reality of HOA/COA living is that a board of directors can basically do what they want unless the membership is involved and does the check and balances on the board.

Until challenged, a board of directors may think that they are doing the right thing.

When challenged, a board may or may not change what they are doing.

If a board does not correct their error, the members then have the following options:

1) Gather support and remove/replace the board (via recall or at the next election)
2) Challenge the board via other channels:
If your State has an HOA/COA Ombudsman, make a complaint to them and/or
Speak with an attorney about legal options
3) Live with it
4) See the writing on the wall and move.


One is certainly free to reject this reality and replace it with their own.






Completely agree. However, if no one wants to move and there are ego and personality conflicts, there could be endless ideological debates and email "wars."
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/02/2020 5:19 PM  
But, still no language, nPB?
JohnC77
(Washington)

Posts:207


10/02/2020 8:18 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 10/02/2020 5:19 PM
But, still no language, nPB?



PUT IT TO REST!
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:17008


10/02/2020 9:22 PM  
Posted By NpB on 10/02/2020 4:14 PM


Completely agree. However, if no one wants to move and there are ego and personality conflicts, there could be endless ideological debates and email "wars."




And who would want to deal with that all the time?


GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:4130


10/02/2020 10:56 PM  
Posted By NpB on 10/02/2020 7:34 AM
I already answer his question very clearly in my OP.

No you didn't.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7579


10/03/2020 9:19 AM  
John77 uses direct quotes from governing docs frequently. He cites oe here, though Have no idea why. But he defends NpB's secrecy? Strange.

What are your docs exact words regarding dogs, NpB?
JohnC77
(Washington)

Posts:207


10/03/2020 11:09 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 10/03/2020 9:19 AM
John77 uses direct quotes from governing docs frequently. He cites oe here, though Have no idea why. But he defends NpB's secrecy? Strange.

What are your docs exact words regarding dogs, NpB?



AND YOUR POINT?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3275


10/03/2020 12:28 PM  
Ya know, I’m getting suspicious about JohnC77.

At times, he sounds a lot like a previous poster - with a different name.

I certainly could be wrong, and certainly apologize if I am.
ChrisE8
(New York)

Posts:128


10/03/2020 1:46 PM  
Posted By NpB on 10/01/2020 9:31 PM
CC&Rs state that pets must be walked off the property. Does this literally mean an owner may not physically walk their pet, presumably a dog, on the property, or does it refer to pets urinating/defecating?

This rule has never been enforced. Since it has never been enforced, it this rule unenforceable now?

I personally think it is silly that interpreting the rule strictly, you have to drive or carry your pet off the property before you can walk it.





Does the document define what "walk" means and "the property" means?

If you're not a pet owner and aren't bothered by anyone walking a pet, I don't see the issue.

If it's never been enforced, then it could start being enforced now, but it would need to be enforced consistently.

MarshallT
(New York)

Posts:108


10/07/2020 6:01 AM  
Hi,

The rules means to say that pets must be on a leash when leaving the home and walking through the property. If this has been confusing for owners, the board should consider amending it so that it is clearer.

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