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Subject: Power of attorney during open forum discussion
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AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/21/2020 7:54 PM  
Hi,

Before HOA meeting we ask members to share Sign Up sheet for members who like to talk during open forum discussion(Florida)

One of the residents (Who is not an owner on the deed) got a power of attorney from her father (the owner) to represent him at all the meetings.
The member asked to put both her name and her fathers on the sign up sheet so they have more time to talk during the open forum.

Is it allowed ?
AugustinD


Posts:3683


07/21/2020 7:59 PM  
I advise the board to prohibit this.

I do not care what the reason is for these two people both wanting to both speak. When power-of-attorney paperwork is in place, it's pretty much either full on or full off. Either it's active or it's not. It cannot be both active and inactive.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:758


07/21/2020 8:27 PM  
I don't see a problem with the woman representing her father. My guess is that in most states you would have no choice but to allow it.

I don't understand how anyone would think she could get more time by writing two names. She either represents him or he represents himself. Either way, it counts as one person.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9678


07/22/2020 8:52 AM  
Posted By BenA2 on 07/21/2020 8:27 PM
I don't see a problem with the woman representing her father. My guess is that in most states you would have no choice but to allow it.

I don't understand how anyone would think she could get more time by writing two names. She either represents him or he represents himself. Either way, it counts as one person.




That is the way I see it. One vote per unit, one person designated at the voter, one right to speak.
AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/24/2020 12:20 PM  
Hi,
I have replied to the member using the POA that she cannot have both talking as per forums suggestions, The member reply was:

"Please send me legal documentation supporting your “claim” that I am not allowed speak at the HOA meeting if my Father also has some questions and/or wants to speak.

Where are these resolutions you passed regarding member discussions during HOA meetings? Where is this document? This is my formal request for the resolution book and required filings for them"


How will you suggest to reply - She is causing a lot of headache to the board ??


As FYI The board secretary included in the board minutes the resolution which was passed which is the following:

1. A Signup sheet will be published with the meeting agenda, members will include any topic they would like to discuss and the parcel representative.

2. Each Unit/parcel will have 3 minutes to talk about the topics they signed for .

3. Open forum will be conducted at the start of the meeting only, this to allow any member , who sign up the sheet, to speak for any topic that he signed for.


Thanks in Advance.
Asaf
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9678


07/24/2020 12:46 PM  
As

Send her a copy on the minutes with the above in them. See how she responds. Might also add either the owner or the owners POA can speak or vote.
AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/24/2020 12:48 PM  
This was my original reply to her signup sheet , that was the reply on top of it.


"Thank you for sending the sign up sheet.

Per FS720

RIGHT TO SPEAK.—Members and parcel owners have the right to attend all membership meetings and to speak at any meeting with reference to all items opened for discussion or included on the agenda. Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in the governing documents or any rules adopted by the board or by the membership, a member and a parcel owner have the right to speak for at least 3 minutes on any item. The association may adopt written reasonable rules governing the frequency, duration, and other manner of member and parcel owner statements, which rules must be consistent with this subsection



Per FS 720 the board has adopted in the last Board meeting a policy around the open forum discussions.

1. A Signup sheet will be published with the meeting agenda, members will include any topic they would like to discuss and the parcel representative.

2. Each Unit/parcel will have 3 minutes to talk about the topics they signed for .

3. Open forum will be conducted at the start of the meeting only, this to allow any member , who sign up the sheet, to speak for any topic that he signed for.

We need to remember this is a business meeting where the board discuss association business, The board will not be able to do it effectively if homeowners or board members drone on and on with running out of time to address all the agenda items.
After the open forum ends, all members are welcome to stay for the business portion and listen, no comments or questions will be allowed so the board can address all meeting items.

Regarding the sign up sheet, either you or Mr Ladish will be able to represent parcel 603 due to the fact you are using a power of attorney.

You cannot have power of attorney active and not active at the same time, meaning if your father will be able to join the meeting you will not be able to address the board. Pls let us know who will be the Parcel representative so we can update the signup sheet.

If you have any question/suggestion regarding any agenda item, feel free to approach the board email and we will do our best to respond prior or during meeting, this way 3 minutes or so can be enough to clarify any point.
"
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3925


07/24/2020 1:10 PM  
Posted By AsafY on 07/24/2020 12:48 PM
Per FS 720 the board has adopted in the last Board meeting a policy around the open forum discussions.

Good job. I think that's ultimately your answer right there. Your board has adopted a policy that complies with the statutory requirements.
AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/24/2020 1:25 PM  
Thanks !
on top of this answer she replied the following :

"Please send me legal documentation supporting your “claim” that I am not allowed speak at the HOA meeting if my Father also has some questions and/or wants to speak.

Where are these resolutions you passed regarding member discussions during HOA meetings? Where is this document? This is my formal request for the resolution book and required filings for them"


What else is she looking for ?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2902


07/24/2020 2:06 PM  
If HOA start with FS 720 ...

(6) RIGHT TO SPEAK.—Members and parcel owners have the right to attend all membership meetings and to speak at any meeting with reference to all items opened for discussion or included on the agenda. Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in the governing documents or any rules adopted by the board or by the membership, a member and a parcel owner have the right to speak for at least 3 minutes on any item. The association may adopt written reasonable rules governing the frequency, duration, and other manner of member and parcel owner statements, which rules must be consistent with this subsection.


If COA start with FS 718 ... I think it has something generally equivalent.

Now, the owner in question could rotate with her father, on different topics ...

Now to the issue - is there really a major issue with both of them speaking? Even if they both took up 3 minutes on each topic, would it extend the meetings too long?
AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/24/2020 2:35 PM  
If the member was actually helping we would not mind at all, but they use the time to criticize the board which ends up wasting every one time!

Our concern is if you allow one then other member will get the excuse to do so and the open forum will be extended to over 30 minutes

JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9678


07/24/2020 3:24 PM  
Posted By AsafY on 07/24/2020 2:35 PM
If the member was actually helping we would not mind at all, but they use the time to criticize the board which ends up wasting every one time!

Our concern is if you allow one then other member will get the excuse to do so and the open forum will be extended to over 30 minutes





Time them and when their time is up just say your time is up and thank you for your input.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2902


07/24/2020 4:53 PM  
It’s their three minutes on anything on the agenda.

If they want to criticize the board on that item on the agenda, great - time them all.

If they don’t stay on topic, cut them off, and move to the next person wishing to speak.

SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:3358


07/25/2020 9:31 AM  
these people are trying to take the system, so if they want to play, stat with asking what kind of power of attorney this is - and make them show it to you.

There are POAs that only kick in when the person becomes incapacitated, while others have a specific start and end date and only authorize the POA to do certain things, and a durable POA that grants the authority to do many things. If this man isn't incapacitated, why does he need his daughter to speak for him?

I would still say no - the daughter IS NOT a HOA member and has no right to attend the meeting, let alone speak. Unless they can come up with a valid reason that she needs to talk, Dad will have to speak for himself. If they think this is worth spending money on an attorney to fight this, I say they should bring it and let's see what a judge has to say. Personally I think they'd be laughed out of court of the judge would get really missed and tear in them for wasting the courts time. If

Sometimes you need to call people on their BS. Stop being afraid of people threatening to sue. Anyone can sue, but it doesn't mean they'll win. In fact if they go that route, I'd countered and ask the court to award the association it's court costs and attorney fees for wasting time with this ish. Start documenting their behavior and bring that to the court if it comes to that.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16850


07/25/2020 11:39 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 07/25/2020 9:31 AM

I would still say no - the daughter IS NOT a HOA member and has no right to attend the meeting, let alone speak.




The power of attorney is akin to a proxy.
A proxy holder has the right to act in place of the member, which includes speaking.


That said - I think it would depend on how much time you have at the meeting for open discussion.
If it's not a lot, or there are a lot who wish to speak, I would only let one of them speak.
If you have the time and there aren't that many who wish to speak, I don't see the harm.
Is this the battle you want to fight with these people?

SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:3358


07/25/2020 12:35 PM  
If the OP is correct, that's not what these people are doing - they only want more time to talk during open forum. Are they not capable of deciding what's bugging them the most deciding who will deliver three minute rant?

As I said earlier, there are different types of POAs, and what your POA can do on your behalf can vary depending on the language. Usually you have to present the POA to show you have the authority to act on that person's behalf. That makes it similar to a proxy, but as you know the proxy is usually a one time thing, like voting in a board election.

I don't want to fight, but I hate people gaming the system. Remember, they bought up this POA business. Maybe a better question is do THEY want to push this for no good reason - getting more time than other homeowners is not a good reason. Why didn't Dad simply say something like "my daughter lives with me but would like to participate in open forum - is that ok?". The board might have said ok and this POA business wouldn't come up at all.

and we still don't know what kind of POA this is. They may be speaking of a healthcare POA which only give one the authority to make healthcare decisions on another's behalf of that person is incapacitated. Deciding to put some in hospice isn't the same as complaining about the association's lawn care service.

This is supposed to be a business meeting and although homeowner should be able to speak during open forum, that doesn't mean one or two people get to dominate that portion.

AugustinD


Posts:3683


07/25/2020 1:07 PM  
Posted By SheliaH on 07/25/2020 9:31 AM
If they think this is worth spending money on an attorney to fight this, I say they should bring it and let's see what a judge has to say. Personally I think they'd be laughed out of court of the judge would get really missed and tear in them for wasting the courts time.
Ditto, with the caveat that I do not see any attorney being willing to squander her or his reputation with a judge on this issue. I think these two (clowns) would have to take this to court pro se.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9678


07/25/2020 4:24 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/25/2020 1:07 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 07/25/2020 9:31 AM
If they think this is worth spending money on an attorney to fight this, I say they should bring it and let's see what a judge has to say. Personally I think they'd be laughed out of court of the judge would get really missed and tear in them for wasting the courts time.
Ditto, with the caveat that I do not see any attorney being willing to squander her or his reputation with a judge on this issue. I think these two (clowns) would have to take this to court pro se.




Good post. An Ahole with no money is not dangerous. An Ahole with money can be dangerous. My intial reaction to the threat of legal action, is OK. See you in court. But, I am not stupid..........LOL
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2902


07/25/2020 4:34 PM  
Asaf,

I reread your last post a couple of times - I want to reiterate my last point.

One or the other of the folks could speak to any topic on the agenda - for three minutes if you chose to limit them. As long as they are complaining about the board related to the topic on the agenda, it is fine - regardless what they say about the board (within reason). You are not required to allow both to speak on a single topic - it is up to you.

Do not fall into the trap of trying to limit them because you don't like what they have to say - as long as they confine those comments to the topic.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9678


07/25/2020 5:21 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 07/25/2020 4:34 PM
Asaf,

I reread your last post a couple of times - I want to reiterate my last point.

One or the other of the folks could speak to any topic on the agenda - for three minutes if you chose to limit them. As long as they are complaining about the board related to the topic on the agenda, it is fine - regardless what they say about the board (within reason). You are not required to allow both to speak on a single topic - it is up to you.

Do not fall into the trap of trying to limit them because you don't like what they have to say - as long as they confine those comments to the topic.



I agree.
AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/26/2020 9:13 AM  
Thanks so much guys for the support, Every meeting is a disaster due to these members!

That member requested they both talk about all the topics on the agenda.
We have 4 items on the agenda. if we play nice a you suggest George only both of them can take 24 minutes of the boards time. if we dont restrict them.

Also same member asked for the the following
"Where are these resolutions you passed regarding member discussions during HOA meetings? Where is this document? This is my formal request for the resolution book and required filings for them."

The previous HOA never had a resolution book, and in our CC&Rs it mentioned that we MAY have one.
From another post I understood our minutes are enough. where is the law around it to proof her we dont need a resolution book?

we like to be correct on it from the start , as she will probably to create AMOK around this new order on Tuesday.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9678


07/26/2020 9:42 AM  
Asa

They do not get to speak 3 minutes per agenda item. They get to make a 3 minute comment only.
AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/26/2020 9:54 AM  
What about this comment?
"Where are these resolutions you passed regarding member discussions during HOA meetings? Where is this document? This is my formal request for the resolution book and required filings for them."

At our CC&Rs it mentioned the HOA MAY have a book of resolution.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:3358


07/26/2020 9:56 AM  
I don't know if you're board president - if so, it's past time to preside and stop letting these people the you and the board in knots. There is no reason to have two people in the same house talk about the same issue. Before the open forum begins, announce the time limit, the rules of engagement, hold the forum and then end it.

Tell the homeowners they're welcome to listen to the proceedings, but now the business portion begins and no comments or questions will be allowed so the BOARD can review everything on the agenda. You're there to discuss and vote on what to do, so do your job and focus. If anyone misbehaves, tell them to stop, if they refuse, ask them to leave, if they refuse,either have them escorted out of adjourn the meeting and reschedule.

If that becomes necessary, you may need to talk to the association attorney about possibly banning the daughter from attending the next meeting (after all she s not the homeowner). Dad may have to tell her to take a seat and if HE gets belligerent, you may have to ban him from the next meeting too.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3925


07/26/2020 11:54 AM  
Posted By AsafY on 07/26/2020 9:54 AM
What about this comment?
"Where are these resolutions you passed regarding member discussions during HOA meetings? Where is this document? This is my formal request for the resolution book and required filings for them."

At our CC&Rs it mentioned the HOA MAY have a book of resolution.

That's interesting. I've often wondered what's the difference between a Motion-Seconded-Vote decision and an "official" resolution. No one in my HOA has ever had an answer to that, and I've asked several dozen people about it over the last 5 years. After 30 years and counting my HOA's Board has never considered a "Resolution" on anything.
AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/26/2020 12:02 PM  
Posted By GenoS on 07/26/2020 11:54 AM
Posted By AsafY on 07/26/2020 9:54 AM
What about this comment?
"Where are these resolutions you passed regarding member discussions during HOA meetings? Where is this document? This is my formal request for the resolution book and required filings for them."

At our CC&Rs it mentioned the HOA MAY have a book of resolution.

That's interesting. I've often wondered what's the difference between a Motion-Seconded-Vote decision and an "official" resolution. No one in my HOA has ever had an answer to that, and I've asked several dozen people about it over the last 5 years. After 30 years and counting my HOA's Board has never considered a "Resolution" on anything.




The member will claim at the meeting that we cannot enforce the open forum resolution until its documented. SO As long as I cannot back it up by law members may not respect it.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9678


07/26/2020 12:12 PM  
Posted By AsafY on 07/26/2020 12:02 PM
Posted By GenoS on 07/26/2020 11:54 AM
Posted By AsafY on 07/26/2020 9:54 AM
What about this comment?
"Where are these resolutions you passed regarding member discussions during HOA meetings? Where is this document? This is my formal request for the resolution book and required filings for them."

At our CC&Rs it mentioned the HOA MAY have a book of resolution.

That's interesting. I've often wondered what's the difference between a Motion-Seconded-Vote decision and an "official" resolution. No one in my HOA has ever had an answer to that, and I've asked several dozen people about it over the last 5 years. After 30 years and counting my HOA's Board has never considered a "Resolution" on anything.




The member will claim at the meeting that we cannot enforce the open forum resolution until its documented. SO As long as I cannot back it up by law members may not respect it.




Your minutes back the limitation. Rules and Regulations are not like Covenants and ByLaws.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9678


07/26/2020 12:13 PM  
Grow a pair and back her down.
MarkW18


Posts:1290


07/26/2020 12:21 PM  
How about just send in Federal agents. That should shut them up!
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3925


07/26/2020 12:51 PM  
Posted By AsafY on 07/26/2020 12:02 PM
The member will claim at the meeting that we cannot enforce the open forum resolution until its documented. SO As long as I cannot back it up by law members may not respect it.

I haven't been able to find anything that suggests your, "written reasonable rules expanding the right of members to speak and governing the frequency, duration, and other manner of member statements," needs to be enacted as an official policy, by Resolution or otherwise. That's FS 720.303(2)(b). Show that to everyone and suggest they probably want to "respect" the Florida Statutes.

Now, there are other parts of the statute that do require additional effort to implement whereas the statute itself does not indicate that. The same goes for various sections of the Florida Administrative Code FAS 61B-23 says certain things have to be "adopted by written rule" by a Board of Directors in order to be valid. First off, FAS 61B refers to FS 718 a lot, and not FS 720, so if you're a 720 HOA then all of the 718 Condo statute may or may not apply to you. Second, the right of members to speak is NOT one of the things that must be "adopted by written rule" in the FAC. FS 720 says, "The association may adopt written reasonable rules expanding the right of members to speak and governing the frequency, duration, and other manner of member statements,...".

You've done that. Time to stop playing footsie.

AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/26/2020 1:58 PM  
Posted By GenoS on 07/26/2020 12:51 PM
Posted By AsafY on 07/26/2020 12:02 PM
The member will claim at the meeting that we cannot enforce the open forum resolution until its documented. SO As long as I cannot back it up by law members may not respect it.

I haven't been able to find anything that suggests your, "written reasonable rules expanding the right of members to speak and governing the frequency, duration, and other manner of member statements," needs to be enacted as an official policy, by Resolution or otherwise. That's FS 720.303(2)(b). Show that to everyone and suggest they probably want to "respect" the Florida Statutes.

Now, there are other parts of the statute that do require additional effort to implement whereas the statute itself does not indicate that. The same goes for various sections of the Florida Administrative Code FAS 61B-23 says certain things have to be "adopted by written rule" by a Board of Directors in order to be valid. First off, FAS 61B refers to FS 718 a lot, and not FS 720, so if you're a 720 HOA then all of the 718 Condo statute may or may not apply to you. Second, the right of members to speak is NOT one of the things that must be "adopted by written rule" in the FAC. FS 720 says, "The association may adopt written reasonable rules expanding the right of members to speak and governing the frequency, duration, and other manner of member statements,...".

You've done that. Time to stop playing footsie.





Thanks so much for the research, our lawyer mentioned that 718 Condo statute does not apply to us only 720. so we should be ok unless she comes us with a different quote from FS.
AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/26/2020 1:59 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 07/26/2020 12:13 PM
Grow a pair and back her down.





No so simple when I am trying (As president) to enforce it but rest of the board of directors not always back me up as they tend to be influenced by the members pressure.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2902


07/26/2020 2:22 PM  
I know this is painful, but I would urge the Board to follow every rule - the quote below from FS720 ... you said four items on the agenda. One or the other gets to speak (one piece of property) for three minutes on each item. This is 4 x 3 minutes = 12 minutes, right?

They could alternate - right? One speaks on two items and one speaks on the other two. This is still 12 minutes, right?

"(6) RIGHT TO SPEAK.—Members and parcel owners have the right to attend all membership meetings and to speak at any meeting with reference to all items opened for discussion or included on the agenda. Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in the governing documents or any rules adopted by the board or by the membership, a member and a parcel owner have the right to speak for at least 3 minutes on any item. The association may adopt written reasonable rules governing the frequency, duration, and other manner of member and parcel owner statements, which rules must be consistent with this subsection."
AsafY
(Florida)

Posts:39


07/26/2020 2:42 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 07/26/2020 2:22 PM
I know this is painful, but I would urge the Board to follow every rule - the quote below from FS720 ... you said four items on the agenda. One or the other gets to speak (one piece of property) for three minutes on each item. This is 4 x 3 minutes = 12 minutes, right?

They could alternate - right? One speaks on two items and one speaks on the other two. This is still 12 minutes, right?

"(6) RIGHT TO SPEAK.—Members and parcel owners have the right to attend all membership meetings and to speak at any meeting with reference to all items opened for discussion or included on the agenda. Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in the governing documents or any rules adopted by the board or by the membership, a member and a parcel owner have the right to speak for at least 3 minutes on any item. The association may adopt written reasonable rules governing the frequency, duration, and other manner of member and parcel owner statements, which rules must be consistent with this subsection."





So basically you say that even if she has POA from her dad you suggest we allow both to speak? (they both asked to talk on all agenda items)
What is the point of POA/Proxy?? can they also both be elected to the board of directors?

Just FYI Her dad allowed her in the POA to be able to get all privileges as he as a member will.
if we allow it what will prevent him to give few more POA next time and allow more folks to talk on behalf of same parcel?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2902


07/26/2020 4:27 PM  
So, think about if co-owners.

Only one can talk for three minutes, but they could alternate.

I don’t think POA or proxy works to allow someone other than the owner to be elected to the board - unless your docs allow non property owners to be elected to the board, then either or both could be elected.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3925


07/26/2020 4:31 PM  
A POA does not confer all the same rights and privileges that an owner has. Someone holding a POA is not eligible to be on the board, for instance.

I've heard that a POA (and the details of these have subtle differences state-by-state) allows someone to stand in the owner's shoes and act in the owner's place. At the outset of a meeting, I'd ask who's wearing the owner's shoes for the evening and only allow that person to speak for the owner. Tell them they can't swap shoes during the meeting. Or words to that effect.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7397


07/26/2020 6:31 PM  
I agree with Geno and Augustin and Sheila. Geno says it well.
MarkW18


Posts:1290


07/26/2020 8:03 PM  
All of you getting bent out of shape because 2 owner want to speak at a meeting.

I have more of a problem with two members from the same house being on the same board. Two people from the same house potentially control everything that goes on in your community.

WOW!
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3925


07/26/2020 10:12 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 07/26/2020 8:03 PM
I have more of a problem with two members from the same house being on the same board. Two people from the same house potentially control everything that goes on in your community.


In Florida that's not permitted in a Condo association. In an HOA, though, it's a different story. We've got a husband/wife team on our 4-member board now since January of last year. Before that, there was a different husband/wife team on the board for a year in 2018. Some people here don't like it, including myself, but it's not illegal in an HOA. We could amend our documents, as many other FL HOAs have done, but that would be *gasp* work.

If an overwhelming number of homeowners don't care, it's pointless to try and fix.
MarkW18


Posts:1290


07/26/2020 11:12 PM  
Geno,

I could care less about a husband and wife on a board. I hate it, but it's in their documents. My point was, if you have to worry because two people from the same household want to speak, then resign from the board.

For the past week I have been watching a old TV series called The West Wing. The president might be the most person in the world, but the Chief of Staff actually runs things.

I have run hundreds and hundreds of board meetings over the past years. If I didn't, I don't think things would get done. The last time an association I managed ran their meeting I was fired. I got an email that the association fired their 4th management company in less than two years.

I could count on one hand the number of bad meetings that transpired, but at the end of the day, its their money. Let them speak and move on.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7397


07/27/2020 9:51 AM  
I think, MarkW, that one of the pair is not an owner, please reread the OP.
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