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Subject: Board member calling homeowners
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SashaE1


Posts:49


06/18/2020 1:20 PM  
Can a Board member call the members of the hoa to ask them to vote for board member elections in the annual meeting? Does a board member need the approval of the majority of the board in order to call members to encourage them to vote? The phone numbers are part of the membership list.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3867


06/18/2020 1:43 PM  
I think campaigning is fine as long as association funds aren't being used to do it. Using your own phone to call people and ask for their support? Sure, no problem. Printing campaign flyers and using HOA funds to pay for them? No way.
SashaE1


Posts:49


06/18/2020 1:56 PM  
Posted By GenoS on 06/18/2020 1:43 PM
I think campaigning is fine as long as association funds aren't being used to do it. Using your own phone to call people and ask for their support? Sure, no problem. Printing campaign flyers and using HOA funds to pay for them? No way.



Thank you. Yes the board member is using their own phone and is not using HOA funds to solicit the members to vote. The reason I ask is because we are in monterey california and here the membership list to the members does not include phone numbers however this board member has the phone numbers of the membership in the list because as a board member they have access to these records. that’s why I wanted to know if the board member needs approval of the majority of the board to get a copy of the membership list with phone numbers to call them to ask them to vote.
BillH10
(Texas)

Posts:510


06/18/2020 2:08 PM  
I don't have a problem using Association funds to solicit votes as long as the call is to ask/remind owners to vote in generic terms and not soliciting a vote for one candidate or the other.

MarkW18


Posts:1195


06/18/2020 2:54 PM  
Posted By BillH10 on 06/18/2020 2:08 PM
I don't have a problem using Association funds to solicit votes as long as the call is to ask/remind owners to vote in generic terms and not soliciting a vote for one candidate or the other.




Why would a board member call and ask people to vote? If quorum is high, the person is already a board member, then it make more sense to have no one vote, which is the norm in HOA's. I lived in a community of 317 homes. The most votes ever cast during the annual elections was 39. Hence, no new board members actually elected in 8 years. O Board members only got in by being appointed and being a friend of the board and MC.
SashaE1


Posts:49


06/18/2020 3:15 PM  
Does a board member need the approval of the majority of the board to call the members to solicit them to vote in the annual election?
MarkM19
(Texas)

Posts:612


06/18/2020 3:33 PM  
Sasha,
When you are a Board member you don't lose any rights as a Homeowner. If they choose to solicit votes he has every right in my opinion. I would also add that if requested by any other candidate they should have the same access to the numbers. Equal Access is the only way to go.

I personally sent letters to all of our 438 HOs in my Ca. HOA because we had a bad actor on our Board that was making a large financial gain while he was the President. He was breaking his Fiduciary duties and I called him out and he was not re elected. I was threatened that he would sue me. I told him if I have proof and documentation you cant get sued for telling the truth. He lost and slithered away and never was re elected after 2 other attempts.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7333


06/18/2020 4:54 PM  
Hmmmm.... Phone numbers are not part of the membership lists in Calif. Email address are now, howwever, unless the owners opts out and says they don't want their email on the membership list.

I think the question is since only board members have access to owners' phone numbers, is it all right if they call owners to solicit votes for certain candidates?

Offhand, I'd say no. Those phone #s are Association resources. They, per CA SBB 323, it seems, should be available to all Owners to use for campaigning if AT ALL. But directors in my HOA sure don't have access to Owners phone #s. How is is that directors can get them in your HOA, Sasha? That's strange to me.

I do not, then, believe that the Board has the authority to say to a director, sure, you can have this private, protected information. The Board, imo, would be exceeding its authority.

Interesting question.
SashaE1


Posts:49


06/18/2020 5:31 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/18/2020 4:54 PM
Hmmmm.... Phone numbers are not part of the membership lists in Calif. Email address are now, howwever, unless the owners opts out and says they don't want their email on the membership list.

I think the question is since only board members have access to owners' phone numbers, is it all right if they call owners to solicit votes for certain candidates?

Offhand, I'd say no. Those phone #s are Association resources. They, per CA SBB 323, it seems, should be available to all Owners to use for campaigning if AT ALL. But directors in my HOA sure don't have access to Owners phone #s. How is is that directors can get them in your HOA, Sasha? That's strange to me.

I do not, then, believe that the Board has the authority to say to a director, sure, you can have this private, protected information. The Board, imo, would be exceeding its authority.

Interesting question.



Kerry, I don’t know where the board member got the phone number. when i asked he said it was in the membership list the MC gave him. He’s not calling to solicit any particular candidate. Only calling to ask the members to vote to meet quorum.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:734


06/18/2020 5:44 PM  
If they are acting on behalf of the board then, yes, they should have board approval. Since you said they only have access to the phone numbers because they are a board member then they should only use the numbers for board business.

If they are doing it on their own, they have every right but should not be using the phone list that is not public.



KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7333


06/18/2020 5:58 PM  
I'd say your MC is out of line. Owner phone numbers should not be on "Membership lists" in CA, which are official documents.

You're saying he called one owner and just to ask them to vote to make sure quorum is reached? Why is that of concern to you?
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7333


06/18/2020 6:01 PM  
I'd say your MC is out of line. Owner phone numbers should not be on "Membership lists" in CA, which are official documents. Any Owner may have a copy upon written request. I'm wonder ing if your property mgr is certified??

You're saying the director called ONE owner and just to ask them to vote to make sure quorum is reached? Why is that of concern to you?
SashaE1


Posts:49


06/18/2020 6:33 PM  
I’ll let this board member know to not call the homeowners since they are acting on their own calling all the members asking them to vote. I appreciate this board member’s interest to make sure members vote. Kerry, I don’t have a problem with it. I just wanted to know if that was permitted to do as a board member. Ben, you are correct, he has access to the phone numbers because he is a board member.
MarkW18


Posts:1195


06/18/2020 8:20 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/18/2020 5:58 PM
I'd say your MC is out of line. Owner phone numbers should not be on "Membership lists" in CA, which are official documents.

You're saying he called one owner and just to ask them to vote to make sure quorum is reached? Why is that of concern to you?



Sorry, phone numbers or email addresses would be available to any and all Board members. What if the association was self-managed and there was not a MC involved, you as the Secretary would keep that information. So, you, as the Board Secretary, if asked by the Board president, you would say no?
SashaE1


Posts:49


06/18/2020 11:14 PM  
Posted By MarkM19 on 06/18/2020 3:33 PM
Sasha,
When you are a Board member you don't lose any rights as a Homeowner. If they choose to solicit votes he has every right in my opinion. I would also add that if requested by any other candidate they should have the same access to the numbers. Equal Access is the only way to go.

I personally sent letters to all of our 438 HOs in my Ca. HOA because we had a bad actor on our Board that was making a large financial gain while he was the President. He was breaking his Fiduciary duties and I called him out and he was not re elected. I was threatened that he would sue me. I told him if I have proof and documentation you cant get sued for telling the truth. He lost and slithered away and never was re elected after 2 other attempts.



that’s awesome Mark 👏
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:306


06/23/2020 12:41 PM  
Posted By MarkM19 on 06/18/2020 3:33 PM
Sasha,
When you are a Board member you don't lose any rights as a Homeowner. If they choose to solicit votes he has every right in my opinion. I would also add that if requested by any other candidate they should have the same access to the numbers. Equal Access is the only way to go.

I personally sent letters to all of our 438 HOs in my Ca. HOA because we had a bad actor on our Board that was making a large financial gain while he was the President. He was breaking his Fiduciary duties and I called him out and he was not re elected. I was threatened that he would sue me. I told him if I have proof and documentation you cant get sued for telling the truth. He lost and slithered away and never was re elected after 2 other attempts.





Do you think it was worth the approximately $241 to sand letters to all owners?
MarkM19
(Texas)

Posts:612


06/23/2020 1:18 PM  
In my case it was because the Board President who many loved was responsible for managing the Security guards and one he demanded that was hired was actually working for him writing Software Code for him during his evening shift. I caught them on video working many nights in a row till midnight when the Pres would leave. When I confronted the guard he admitted it to me and another Board member. He said the deal he had was once the Code was written and beta tested he would get a full time gig at the Presidents company. Sick to think that nobody was watching this theft of HOA expenses not to mention he was not doing his guard duties 8 hours a day. Just to add more Salt to the wound he was also doing our Cameras and was replacing them when he did not need to and keeping the other cameras and switches as they chose. It was Bad and could have gone one for years. Was it worth it? You bet it was.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9577


06/23/2020 3:46 PM  
Posted By SashaE1 on 06/18/2020 6:33 PM
I’ll let this board member know to not call the homeowners since they are acting on their own calling all the members asking them to vote. I appreciate this board member’s interest to make sure members vote. Kerry, I don’t have a problem with it. I just wanted to know if that was permitted to do as a board member. Ben, you are correct, he has access to the phone numbers because he is a board member.




The member is doing nothing wrong. Do you not get that?
MarshallT
(New York)

Posts:78


06/24/2020 7:36 AM  
It sounds like this is okay as long as the member is calling to remind everyone to vote. It can be hard to get a good turnout so this might be part of the solution.
AugustinD


Posts:3495


06/24/2020 7:42 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/18/2020 5:58 PM
I'd say your MC is out of line. Owner phone numbers should not be on "Membership lists" in CA, which are official documents.
The following support what KerryL1 posted above:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-8320
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5200#axzz2CR2ljirY
MarkW18


Posts:1195


06/24/2020 10:11 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/24/2020 7:42 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/18/2020 5:58 PM
I'd say your MC is out of line. Owner phone numbers should not be on "Membership lists" in CA, which are official documents.
The following support what KerryL1 posted above:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-8320
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5200#axzz2CR2ljirY



UNBELIEVEABLE!

And all this time I thought I had been doing things correctly. I noticed that delinquency lists, executive session minutes, correspondences with attorneys, bids were all left off the "official corporation documents". Are you saying the board members should not have seen them?

Let's say you're in, let's take California, and you're self managed. You're a community of 80 homes and use a HOA-specific software package to run the corporation. Remember, it's a corporation first. You send out a HOA information sheet asking all homeowners to fill out and return. It contains names, addressese, phone #, email address, vehicle info, emergency contact, rental info, off site address.

So, a board member is entitled to look at everything. A member is entitled to the minimum as outlined in the statues. Some associations may go further, but can not go less.

Kerry won't have access to the PM's software, but may have board member access to a web portals which would have reports generated by the PM's software. I don't give out access to my software, but all associations have a web portal, one for homeowners and one for board members. Board members have access to over 350 built-in reports and the the ability for custom reports.

As I said, HOA's are corporations first. If the CEO or President of Bank of America wanted the phone number of a shareholder to remind them to vote at the annual meeting, they would be denied?
MarkW18


Posts:1195


06/24/2020 10:19 AM  
In addition, many HOA specific website builder have homeowner phone numbers and email addresses available to all who sign up for the site through through member only portal, including Community 123, sponsors of this site.
AugustinD


Posts:3495


06/24/2020 10:39 AM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 06/24/2020 10:11 AM
As I said, HOA's are corporations first. If the CEO or President of Bank of America wanted the phone number of a shareholder to remind them to vote at the annual meeting, they would be denied?
Stop your whiny old man melodrama. AFAIC, first, the statutes seem to respect that people generally do not want to be bothered by phone. Second, if the Board wanted members reminded to show up to make quorum, then the proper venue for this is a mailing. Third, if the Board was battling to make quorum, then maybe it would want to consider having the manager call members. Fourth, if the statute wanted to make phone numbers available to any member, then the statutes would have included this provision.
AugustinD


Posts:3495


06/24/2020 10:46 AM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 06/24/2020 10:11 AM
As I said, HOA's are corporations first.
Homeowners associations are corporations first in some instances and corporations second in others. The rules for settling statutory conflicts say that, for the issues in a given dispute, the more specific statute will be given more weight. Meaning that in some disputes, the California HOA statute may prevail where there is a conflict with the California Corporate statute.

Now go have puppies.
MarkW18


Posts:1195


06/24/2020 11:07 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/24/2020 10:39 AM
Posted By MarkW18 on 06/24/2020 10:11 AM
As I said, HOA's are corporations first. If the CEO or President of Bank of America wanted the phone number of a shareholder to remind them to vote at the annual meeting, they would be denied?
Stop your whiny old man melodrama. AFAIC, first, the statutes seem to respect that people generally do not want to be bothered by phone. Second, if the Board wanted members reminded to show up to make quorum, then the proper venue for this is a mailing. Third, if the Board was battling to make quorum, then maybe it would want to consider having the manager call members. Fourth, if the statute wanted to make phone numbers available to any member, then the statutes would have included this provision.



First, with the whiney old man BS, bite me. Where did you read in the statues that people don't want to be bothered by phone calls? Why would a manager ever be involved in making sure quorum is obtained by the owners They're not on the ballot. Finally, you're still; confusing what an owner has access to and what a Board member has access to.

Have you ever lived in an HOA or ever been on a Board?
AugustinD


Posts:3495


06/24/2020 2:18 PM  
Answered multiple times.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9577


06/24/2020 5:17 PM  
Our HOA publishes a list of owners, home addresses, A phone numbers, and Email addresses. Our owners have always said they like us doing this. We depend on our MC to keep it up to date. Only person told us to remove them as they were no longer the owner. We would remove anyone that asked to be removed, but no one has ever asked us to remove them.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7333


06/24/2020 6:18 PM  
I want to return to a different matter. IN Calif: IF a director calls Owners on a phone list, to which other owners do not have access, to campaign for a cause or candidate, the HOA must share the phone list with any Owner who requests the phone numbers so that THEY may campaign for some one.

Any Association resource that one Owner--director or not-- may use must also be equally available to any other owner. This is my understanding of the new CA election legislation, SB 323.
MarkW18


Posts:1195


06/24/2020 7:17 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/24/2020 6:18 PM
I want to return to a different matter. IN Calif: IF a director calls Owners on a phone list, to which other owners do not have access, to campaign for a cause or candidate, the HOA must share the phone list with any Owner who requests the phone numbers so that THEY may campaign for some one.

Any Association resource that one Owner--director or not-- may use must also be equally available to any other owner. This is my understanding of the new CA election legislation, SB 323.



That is not true.

This is what Adrian Adams comments on equal access. There are specifics to state statues incorporated into the opinion.

Association Media. If any candidate or member advocating a point of view is provided access to association media (such as newsletters and internet websites) during a campaign, for purposes that are reasonably related to that election, the association must provide equal access to all candidates and members advocating a point of view on the issue. (Civ. Code §5105(a).)

Meeting Space. In addition, associations must ensure access to the common area meeting space, if any exists, during a campaign, at no cost, to all candidates, including those who are not incumbents, and to all members advocating a point of view, including those not endorsed by the board, for purposes reasonably related to the election. (Civ. Code §5105(a)(2).)

Right to Campaign. All members, including directors (at their own expense) have a right to campaign for or against any candidate or issue.

Enforcement. For violations regarding equal access to association resources, owners may bring a small claims court action. (Civ. Code §5145(c).)

AugustinD


Posts:3495


06/24/2020 7:34 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 06/24/2020 7:17 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/24/2020 6:18 PM
I want to return to a different matter. IN Calif: IF a director calls Owners on a phone list, to which other owners do not have access, to campaign for a cause or candidate, the HOA must share the phone list with any Owner who requests the phone numbers so that THEY may campaign for some one.

Any Association resource that one Owner--director or not-- may use must also be equally available to any other owner. This is my understanding of the new CA election legislation, SB 323.



That is not true.

This is what Adrian Adams comments on equal access.
Nonsense. Your quotation is from a web site that you time and again have attacked as not representing the law. You are like a kindergartner with bad parents.

Count on it: California Civil Code Section 5105 speaks of giving equal access to all candidates to all HOA media. If a director is using phone numbers to campaign, and another candidate is denied those numbers, I believe a court would say these numbers are "association media" and giving the numbers to one candidate but not another violates California Civil Code 5105.

Where I am more and more candidates are sending texts to my cell phone number. I do not know how they got my number, but it is clear to me that phones are a part of media and a tool for campaigning.
MarkW18


Posts:1195


06/24/2020 8:49 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/24/2020 7:34 PM
Posted By MarkW18 on 06/24/2020 7:17 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/24/2020 6:18 PM
I want to return to a different matter. IN Calif: IF a director calls Owners on a phone list, to which other owners do not have access, to campaign for a cause or candidate, the HOA must share the phone list with any Owner who requests the phone numbers so that THEY may campaign for some one.

Any Association resource that one Owner--director or not-- may use must also be equally available to any other owner. This is my understanding of the new CA election legislation, SB 323.



That is not true.

This is what Adrian Adams comments on equal access.
Nonsense. Your quotation is from a web site that you time and again have attacked as not representing the law. You are like a kindergartner with bad parents.

Count on it: California Civil Code Section 5105 speaks of giving equal access to all candidates to all HOA media. If a director is using phone numbers to campaign, and another candidate is denied those numbers, I believe a court would say these numbers are "association media" and giving the numbers to one candidate but not another violates California Civil Code 5105.

Where I am more and more candidates are sending texts to my cell phone number. I do not know how they got my number, but it is clear to me that phones are a part of media and a tool for campaigning.



I know Adrian and have worked with him on a number of educational panels in Southern California. He was also my association's legal counsel. .
SashaE1


Posts:49


06/26/2020 10:56 PM  
Thanks all for the information! Much appreciated.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7333


06/27/2020 9:14 AM  
From your citation, MarkW: "For violations regarding equal access to association resources, owners may bring a small claims court action. (Civ. Code §5145(c).)"

The list with phone numbers IS an association resource. If anyone uses it to campaign, other owner's may have access to it, too. It's the same now with the membership list in CA, which now include Owners' email addresses. If one gets the list and emails all owners (who haven't opted out), all owners may have it too.
MarkW18


Posts:1195


06/27/2020 9:56 AM  
In 11 years of either living in an association or managing associations, I have only seen two requests for a membership list, and one was a request I had made. I believe that covers about 140 plus associations, so my point is, based on my experience, no one cares about membership lists.

Many HOA specific website software packages that post owner lists of those that allow through their individual profiles. Those lists include address, phone, email, kids name, pets name. The list will allow as little of or as much as the owner chooses. The owner of this site, Community 123, uses such features.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7333


06/27/2020 12:48 PM  
It doesn't matter, Mark, how many have asked for membership lists in your experience. What matters is that in CA, a director can have this Association resource, so may any Owners.

It doesn't matter is the list of this personal info available on the HOA's website. There'd be no need for an owner to to ask for the list if available on the site.

Owners do ask for the list here and one has used it to send her point of view about aspects of our HOA.
MarkW18


Posts:1195


06/27/2020 12:53 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/27/2020 12:48 PM
It doesn't matter, Mark, how many have asked for membership lists in your experience. What matters is that in CA, a director can have this Association resource, so may any Owners.

It doesn't matter is the list of this personal info available on the HOA's website. There'd be no need for an owner to to ask for the list if available on the site.

Owners do ask for the list here and one has used it to send her point of view about aspects of our HOA.



Whatever
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