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Subject: Motorcycle definition
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Author Messages
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 9:33 AM  
Hi.

Our community has a rule that says to park in the garage first then on the driveway.
But many home owners use their garage as storage and park their cars on the driveway or street.
I have 3 cars and I park 1 car in my garage and 2 on my driveway. Now the HOA is telling me to park 2 cars in my garage.

So I am thinking to get some cheap motorcycle and park it in my garage to be in compliance because our CC&R says a motorcycle is an authorized vehicle to park in the garage.
However, I don't want to get a too big motorcycle which would require a lot of space to park in my garage,
What would be the cheapest/smallest and reasonable alternative?

There's no clear definition of motorcycle in our CC&R.
It just says that "motorcycles and pickup trucks having a manufacturer's rating or payload capacity of one (l) ton or less." are authorized vehicles. That's all it says.

So I googled for some definitions of motorcycle.

Cambridge dictionary says a motorcycle is "a vehicle with two wheels and an engine".
Some says "a vehicle with two wheels in line with a motor".
California DMV says "A motorcycle has more than a 150cc engine size, and no more than 3 wheels."

Depends on what you choose, you can even claim an electric bicycle (two wheels + a motor) as a motorcycle.

What would would you put in your garage if you were in my situation?

SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:3224


05/19/2020 9:47 AM  
It matters not what others are doing, as long as YOU comply with the rules, as you agreed to do when you bought your unit. This is similar to thinking "if everyone else is mainlining or Lysol Clorox to protect themselves against COVID19, does that mean you should also chug away, considering the stuff is designed for cleaning household surfaces?"

If you have a two-car garage, why do you just park two in the garage and keep the third in the driveway? That's what garages are for, so it appears you need to reorganize what's in there, so try that and see what happens. You probably have junk you no longer use or need that you should get rid of, and it's a lot cheaper than buying a motorcycle (and why would you buy one just to comply with this rule? Makes no sense to me).

As for the definition of a motorcycle - surely you already know what that is and I would hope the documents wouldn't need to spell that out. If you don't know, take a look at what's on the Harley-Davidson website, or Suzuki website. Note these aren't the same as a scooter, ATV, bicycle (the one you pedal) or a mini-bike.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9461


05/19/2020 9:56 AM  
Bryan

I for one will not comment on your "scam".
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 10:18 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 05/19/2020 9:47 AM
It matters not what others are doing, as long as YOU comply with the rules, as you agreed to do when you bought your unit. This is similar to thinking "if everyone else is mainlining or Lysol Clorox to protect themselves against COVID19, does that mean you should also chug away, considering the stuff is designed for cleaning household surfaces?"

If you have a two-car garage, why do you just park two in the garage and keep the third in the driveway? That's what garages are for, so it appears you need to reorganize what's in there, so try that and see what happens. You probably have junk you no longer use or need that you should get rid of, and it's a lot cheaper than buying a motorcycle (and why would you buy one just to comply with this rule? Makes no sense to me).

As for the definition of a motorcycle - surely you already know what that is and I would hope the documents wouldn't need to spell that out. If you don't know, take a look at what's on the Harley-Davidson website, or Suzuki website. Note these aren't the same as a scooter, ATV, bicycle (the one you pedal) or a mini-bike.




I am trying to comply the rule like you said. The rule says to park two vehicles in the garage and that's what I am trying to do.
Maybe you mis-understood. I am not doing this to park on the street. I park all my vehicles either in my garage or on my driveway. I don't cause any trouble to my neighbors.
The HOA is just telling me to park two vehicles in my garage even if I am not taking up street parking space.
So that's what I am trying to do. I am just trying to do it in a cheapest way.

BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 10:22 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/19/2020 9:56 AM
Bryan

I for one will not comment on your "scam".




Then why did you comment?
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:953


05/19/2020 10:23 AM  
Be a whole lot cheaper to get rid some of the junk in the garage, as Sheila suggested, than to buy a motorcycle. You could even sell it and have more money than you do now!
AugustinD


Posts:3364


05/19/2020 10:30 AM  
Posted By BryanL4 on 05/19/2020 9:33 AM
Our community has a rule that says to park in the garage first then on the driveway.
Is this a board-created rule? If so, what's to keep the board from requiring cars and trucks to go in the garage while other authorized vehicles go on the driveway?
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:3224


05/19/2020 10:34 AM  
You have three cars and park two in the garage, and the third one is in the driveway - if the driveway leads up to the house, I would think it's not on the street, so what's the problem? Why do you think a motorcycle will resolve this when you'll end up with three cars AND a motorcycle to store? At least one of them will have to stay outside.

Or - are you planning to get rid of one car and replace it with a motorcycle, and if so, will two cars AND the motorcycle fit? If that's the case, go ahead - the motorcycle will be in the garage anyway and no one should have an issue with seeing it. That said, I still don't see why you need to buy one.

It sounds like the HOA is objecting to the third car being placed in the driveway and considering there are more homes that are 3 and 4 car households, I would think there needs to be a conversation about letting people park in the driveway of their homes. As long as the car, motorcycle, or whatever is off the street, that's what the HOA should be concerned about.

It doesn't sound like you've even discussed this with the board, so why don't you go to a meeting and express yourself? Better yet, talk to some of your neighbors to see if they have a similar problem - then all of you can attend the meeting. These aren't the 10 commandments - it does take a bit of work to change CCRs, but it CAN be done if you're willing to put in the work. If this rule is a board regulation, changing it should be even easier, provided the new rule doesn't contradict the CCRs. The board would prepare a new resolution, vote to approve it during an open meeting, and then provide updated instructions to the homeowners with an effective date.
DeidreB
(Virginia)

Posts:86


05/19/2020 10:37 AM  
The exact language in the CCR's matters. What does it actually say regarding parking, driveways, vehicles and garages? Get a PDF version and do a search on the following terms: vehicles, motorcycles, parking, driveways, garages.

Does the Declaration include language that the board may adopt rules and regulations regarding parking, vehicles or regarding driveways and garages? Sometimes people misinterpret the language in the CCR's and sometimes it is the homeowner, sometimes it's the Management Company rep and sometimes it is the board. Sometimes boards adopt rules that exceed their authority after a thorough review of CCRs.

Check that language in the Declaration of CCRs and follow it. And make sure the board or management company is not overstepping.

BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 10:43 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 05/19/2020 10:30 AM
Posted By BryanL4 on 05/19/2020 9:33 AM
Our community has a rule that says to park in the garage first then on the driveway.
Is this a board-created rule? If so, what's to keep the board from requiring cars and trucks to go in the garage while other authorized vehicles go on the driveway?




All authorized vehicles (either cars, trucks or motorcycles) must be parked in the garage before you can park on the driveway. That's in CC&R.
MarkW18


Posts:1067


05/19/2020 11:00 AM  
If the cars aren't parked in the street, the rule would not be enforceable. Based on issues with condos having inadequate parking available, their rules would not be deemed "fair and reasonable'. Because your neighbor across the street doesn't like looking at two cars in the driveway just doesn't cut it any more.
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 11:05 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 05/19/2020 10:34 AM
You have three cars and park two in the garage, and the third one is in the driveway - if the driveway leads up to the house, I would think it's not on the street, so what's the problem? Why do you think a motorcycle will resolve this when you'll end up with three cars AND a motorcycle to store? At least one of them will have to stay outside.

Or - are you planning to get rid of one car and replace it with a motorcycle, and if so, will two cars AND the motorcycle fit? If that's the case, go ahead - the motorcycle will be in the garage anyway and no one should have an issue with seeing it. That said, I still don't see why you need to buy one.

It sounds like the HOA is objecting to the third car being placed in the driveway and considering there are more homes that are 3 and 4 car households, I would think there needs to be a conversation about letting people park in the driveway of their homes. As long as the car, motorcycle, or whatever is off the street, that's what the HOA should be concerned about.

It doesn't sound like you've even discussed this with the board, so why don't you go to a meeting and express yourself? Better yet, talk to some of your neighbors to see if they have a similar problem - then all of you can attend the meeting. These aren't the 10 commandments - it does take a bit of work to change CCRs, but it CAN be done if you're willing to put in the work. If this rule is a board regulation, changing it should be even easier, provided the new rule doesn't contradict the CCRs. The board would prepare a new resolution, vote to approve it during an open meeting, and then provide updated instructions to the homeowners with an effective date.




No. see my original post.
I said, "I have 3 cars and I park 1 car in my garage and 2 on MY DRIVEWAY."

Now the HOA is telling me to park 2 cars in my garage and 1 car on my driveway because CC&R says to use garage space first for parking before you can start parking on the driveway.
This rule exists because some neighbors use their garage as storage and park on the STREET.

However if I put 2 cars in my garage, I will be losing the space that I've been using as storage.
So I am trying to park 1 car + 1 (small) motorcycle in my garage and 2 cars on my driveway. That way I can still use some of my garage space as storage while being in compliance to CC&R.

I am just asking what would be the cheapest and smallest motorcycle to buy.

AugustinD


Posts:3364


05/19/2020 11:16 AM  
Posted By BryanL4 on 05/19/2020 11:05 AM
I am just asking what would be the cheapest and smallest motorcycle to buy.
If the HOA challenges you, then I think the California DMV definition gives you the best defense.

The answers you are getting here are from the perspective of HOA Board Directors (past and present). I see folks mostly do not like your approach. Some of us care more about the law. The CC&Rs are what they are. Go ahead and spend your money on, say, a non-running 150cc + motorcycle.
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 11:21 AM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 05/19/2020 11:00 AM
If the cars aren't parked in the street, the rule would not be enforceable. Based on issues with condos having inadequate parking available, their rules would not be deemed "fair and reasonable'. Because your neighbor across the street doesn't like looking at two cars in the driveway just doesn't cut it any more.




This is what our CCR says.

"All vehicles must be parked in the assigned garage of that Ownerto the extent of the space available; provided that each Owner shall ensure that any such garage accommodates at least the number of Authorized Vehicles for which it was originally constructed by Declarant."

That is all it says.

So it does not matter if you take up street parking space or not. Even if you don't need to park on the street, you have to park in your garage first and if your garage is filled up then park on the driveway.

Like you said, I think it is unfair and unreasonable to enforce it on someone like me who don't park on the street.

But it's in the CCR and I need to comply because HOA is enforcing it. And I am trying to find a best way to comply.

BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 11:29 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 05/19/2020 11:16 AM
Posted By BryanL4 on 05/19/2020 11:05 AM
I am just asking what would be the cheapest and smallest motorcycle to buy.
If the HOA challenges you, then I think the California DMV definition gives you the best defense.

The answers you are getting here are from the perspective of HOA Board Directors (past and present). I see folks mostly do not like your approach. Some of us care more about the law. The CC&Rs are what they are. Go ahead and spend your money on, say, a non-running 150cc + motorcycle.




Thanks.
That's actually one of the options I was thinking. A non-running motorcycle for $200. But if I could, I want to do with smaller motorcycle because keeping storage space is the whole point of doing this.
I am also thinking to buy $500 electric bicycle which I can actually use for commuting. But I am not sure if HOA would accept it as motorcycle.
MarkW18


Posts:1067


05/19/2020 11:31 AM  
Posted By BryanL4 on 05/19/2020 11:21 AM
Posted By MarkW18 on 05/19/2020 11:00 AM
If the cars aren't parked in the street, the rule would not be enforceable. Based on issues with condos having inadequate parking available, their rules would not be deemed "fair and reasonable'. Because your neighbor across the street doesn't like looking at two cars in the driveway just doesn't cut it any more.




This is what our CCR says.

"All vehicles must be parked in the assigned garage of that Ownerto the extent of the space available; provided that each Owner shall ensure that any such garage accommodates at least the number of Authorized Vehicles for which it was originally constructed by Declarant."

That is all it says.

So it does not matter if you take up street parking space or not. Even if you don't need to park on the street, you have to park in your garage first and if your garage is filled up then park on the driveway.

Like you said, I think it is unfair and unreasonable to enforce it on someone like me who don't park on the street.

But it's in the CCR and I need to comply because HOA is enforcing it. And I am trying to find a best way to comply.




OK
MarkW18


Posts:1067


05/19/2020 11:45 AM  
I have to assume since you mentioned driveway, you live in a single family detached home community. Your passage doesn't mention additional vehicles, nor does it mention driveway. What's to say your CCRs are of the boilerplate variety and that they were really intended for a condo complex with limited common area parking. Is the rule "fair and reasonable" as it applies to your community. Do you have a parking problem within the community? Too many vehicles on the street?
ND
(PA)

Posts:440


05/19/2020 12:05 PM  
FWIW, I appreciate that you're acknowledging responsibility to be in compliance with the covenants and you've found a creative approach to following the rule and still keeping some storage that you want/need. The HOA Board is forcing your hand.

If you had a total of 4 cars, then you can do what you presently do without issue . . . but god forbid you only have 3 vehicles and would prefer to fill your driveway the same as others (with 4 vehicles) are allowed to do . . . it's just not logical.

So as suggested, it's probably best to purchase something that complies with CA DMV definition of a motorcycle. Also suggest searching docs carefully to ensure it doesn't have to be a registered/insured vehicle (I assume you don't plan to use it or move it, just have it be present as your 2nd "authorized vehicle" in the garage).

I would be prepared for some scrutiny of you on your new motorcycle and possible continued/increased interest from the HOA Board since you've found a somewhat sneaky loophole. Keep us posted!
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 12:44 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 05/19/2020 11:45 AM
I have to assume since you mentioned driveway, you live in a single family detached home community. Your passage doesn't mention additional vehicles, nor does it mention driveway. What's to say your CCRs are of the boilerplate variety and that they were really intended for a condo complex with limited common area parking. Is the rule "fair and reasonable" as it applies to your community. Do you have a parking problem within the community? Too many vehicles on the street?




Yes its an SFD.
Some neighbors use their garage as storage and their parking over flows on to the street and guest parking. I think that is why.

Of course, CCR does not specifically apply this rule to those who park on the street only but to everyone.
So, if HOA enforce this rule on those who park on the street, it becomes selective enforcement so they can't do that.
I think how I feel about this does not matter. What matters is what's written on the CCR.
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 12:50 PM  
Posted By ND on 05/19/2020 12:05 PM
FWIW, I appreciate that you're acknowledging responsibility to be in compliance with the covenants and you've found a creative approach to following the rule and still keeping some storage that you want/need. The HOA Board is forcing your hand.

If you had a total of 4 cars, then you can do what you presently do without issue . . . but god forbid you only have 3 vehicles and would prefer to fill your driveway the same as others (with 4 vehicles) are allowed to do . . . it's just not logical.

So as suggested, it's probably best to purchase something that complies with CA DMV definition of a motorcycle. Also suggest searching docs carefully to ensure it doesn't have to be a registered/insured vehicle (I assume you don't plan to use it or move it, just have it be present as your 2nd "authorized vehicle" in the garage).

I would be prepared for some scrutiny of you on your new motorcycle and possible continued/increased interest from the HOA Board since you've found a somewhat sneaky loophole. Keep us posted!




Thanks.

No it does not have to be registered vehicle if you park in your garage. You can even park an air plane in your garage if you can. There is pretty much no restrictions as to what you can park in your garage as long as you keep your garage door closed.
MarkW18


Posts:1067


05/19/2020 1:04 PM  
I did a google on the exact language of what you posted for your CCRs. Here is what I came up with:

http://amerigeheights.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/155/2018/11/Amerige-Heights-Parking-and-Vehicle-Control-Regulations-Adopted-10.22.18.pdf

Tell me if you find anything in conflict.
TimM11


Posts:342


05/19/2020 1:13 PM  
I agree with ND; go with the CA DMV definition if you go this route. You can probably get a 200cc mini bike for 500-600 if you shop around, not counting taxes and fees.

The rule seems pretty silly if it only involves exclusive-use parking areas like garages and driveways (assuming these are exclusive-use in your situation). If you are the only person who uses the space, I don't see why the combination of vehicles and where they are should matter. Still, HOAs do stuff like this sometimes, so I'm not surprised.

BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 1:22 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 05/19/2020 1:04 PM
I did a google on the exact language of what you posted for your CCRs. Here is what I came up with:

http://amerigeheights.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/155/2018/11/Amerige-Heights-Parking-and-Vehicle-Control-Regulations-Adopted-10.22.18.pdf

Tell me if you find anything in conflict.





They are very similar but not the same by word to word.
I see nothing conflicting from both in general though.

BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 1:26 PM  
Posted By TimM11 on 05/19/2020 1:13 PM
I agree with ND; go with the CA DMV definition if you go this route. You can probably get a 200cc mini bike for 500-600 if you shop around, not counting taxes and fees.

The rule seems pretty silly if it only involves exclusive-use parking areas like garages and driveways (assuming these are exclusive-use in your situation). If you are the only person who uses the space, I don't see why the combination of vehicles and where they are should matter. Still, HOAs do stuff like this sometimes, so I'm not surprised.





Exactly.
I have exclusive use right of my driveway. So this does not make sense at all to me.
Maybe I should dig into the rule more. Maybe there is something I am missing.
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 1:27 PM  
Posted By BryanL4 on 05/19/2020 1:22 PM
Posted By MarkW18 on 05/19/2020 1:04 PM
I did a google on the exact language of what you posted for your CCRs. Here is what I came up with:

http://amerigeheights.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/155/2018/11/Amerige-Heights-Parking-and-Vehicle-Control-Regulations-Adopted-10.22.18.pdf

Tell me if you find anything in conflict.





They are very similar but not the same by word to word.
I see nothing conflicting from both in general though. I would say one is a slightly modified version of the other




BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:707


05/19/2020 2:52 PM  
If there is no definition in your CC&Rs your best bet is to check the state code. If it ever goes to court a judge is not going to care about all the definitions on the internet when the there is a definition in the state code.

A cheaper option would be to buy an old bicycle and throw a cover on it and let them try to decide from the street if you have an "authorized vehicle" under there.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:9306


05/19/2020 3:00 PM  
I've gone through something similar with my city code. Have a 2 car garage but had 3 cars. I parked my truck next to the garage on the grass under a tree. Got a notice that NOT allowed to park vehicles on grass surfaces. Has to be on pavement. Do not have a good area to put in a pad. Ended up having to rotate vehicles. I'd park truck behind the vehicle wasn't going to drive in garage in the driveway. My garage isn't full of mass storage.

Can you park the motorcycle in the back yard behind a fence? Expand the driveway any? Park the motorcycle sideways in the garage?

I ended up having to trade in 2 vehicles and downsize to 2. Made life much easier not having to keep rotating every day.

Former HOA President
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/19/2020 3:01 PM  
Posted By BenA2 on 05/19/2020 2:52 PM
If there is no definition in your CC&Rs your best bet is to check the state code. If it ever goes to court a judge is not going to care about all the definitions on the internet when the there is a definition in the state code.

A cheaper option would be to buy an old bicycle and throw a cover on it and let them try to decide from the street if you have an "authorized vehicle" under there.




Interesting suggestion. Specially with that covering because I already have a bicycle and a cover.
But the HOA would probably ask for actual picture of motorcycle without a cover on it. If they ask for such picture, can I refuse?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2681


05/19/2020 5:55 PM  
Seems easiest to follow the rules ...

These rules were in place when you bought the property?

Seriously, you spend all this time to simply be special?
ND
(PA)

Posts:440


05/19/2020 9:04 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/19/2020 5:55 PM
Seems easiest to follow the rules ...

These rules were in place when you bought the property?

Seriously, you spend all this time to simply be special?



Seems to me he's trying to follow the rules with minimum effort and maximum benefit.

"Spend all this time . . ."?!? He read a couple of pages of his governing docs, googled some motorcycle definitions, and came here asking for thoughts on the cheapest 2-wheeled thing that is still considered a motorcycle . . . doesn't sound like too much time. (Reading someone's dissertation on lessons learned . . . now that's spending a lot of time. Kudos BTW . . . sounds like your time and efforts have paid off.)

He acknowledges that he knows the rule, that he's been called out for noncompliance, and that he wants to comply. He's just found a way to comply that will probably make the crotchety rule-enforcers a bit upset that you've/they've been outdone. But perhaps they can move on to the folks who are the real problem . . . those who jam up their garage with stuff and then also clutter the street with their vehicles.

I like the bicycle with cover idea that was presented. Sounds like it'd be worth a try initially. If anyone needs a picture, they can take it themselves from the street whenever they like. But suspicious persons taking pictures toward my house and interior of my garage would warrant a call to the police.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2681


05/19/2020 9:18 PM  
I disagree - OP is not trying to comply ... he’s just looking for an angle ... he’s special.
MarkW18


Posts:1067


05/19/2020 9:30 PM  
The rule is not enforceable, as it is not "fair and reasonable" for that specific association. If there were a shortage of parking especially in a condo, the rule would make sense.

In 2011 a law firm I worked for bought a set of boilerplate governing documents and one of the restrictions dealt with garage parking. Upon advice of outside legal we keep the provision in for a condo dealing with very limited common area parking nd removed for a larger HOA with plenty of street parking and private streets.

The OP can do what they like, the HOA's count on their submission.
KimberlyW2
(Tennessee)

Posts:35


05/20/2020 9:33 AM  
I'm just over here thinking to myself: What I wouldn't give to even HAVE a garage!! Is this post even real?!?
ND
(PA)

Posts:440


05/20/2020 9:39 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/19/2020 9:18 PM
I disagree - OP is not trying to comply ... he’s just looking for an angle ... he’s special.



I disagree. He's absolutely trying to comply with the "letter of the law" . . . but perhaps not with your interpretation of the "spirit of the law".

To me, he's just seeking fair and equal treatment.

Presently, it's my interpretation that someone in his neighborhood with 6 cars can park 2 in garage, 2 in driveway, and 2 in street . . . and be in compliance.

But his 3 cars with 1 in garage and 2 in driveway (all 3 on his own property and none in the street) is not in compliance.

Explain how that is fair, reasonable, equitable, or makes sense . . . other that saying "well that's the rule"?!

MarkW18's feedback is good.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:3224


05/20/2020 9:50 AM  
It Is getting more asinine the longer the conversation goes on, isn't it?

Bryant wants to be compliant with the rule by buying a motorcycle and putting that in the garage. Yes already said he keeps 2 of his 3 cars in the garage and one on the drivewY, which he has exclusive use of, and by all indications all of these vehicles are off the street.

Once again, I say WHAT IS THE DAMNNED problem here??? And why, oh why doesn't he just clean up his garage - who knows, maybe he'll even find enough room to squeeze in the third car. And I still don't see any indication where he's discussed this with the board - what is he afraid of?If

Bryant, you asked what would be the cheapest motorcycle to buy - another weird question. Buy the one you're likely to use and can afford it you're insisting on going this route. Meantime, this is too silly for me -I'm done with this conversation, so good luck in what you do.
AugustinD


Posts:3364


05/20/2020 10:08 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 05/20/2020 9:50 AM
why doesn't he just clean up his garage - who knows, maybe he'll even find enough room to squeeze in the third car.
I picture folks in his HOA enjoying having a little shop in their garage which to do small projects.

Squeeze?

I too think MarkW18's question about whether this covenant would pass a judge's "fair and reasonable covenant" test is good.
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/20/2020 10:09 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/19/2020 9:18 PM
I disagree - OP is not trying to comply ... he’s just looking for an angle ... he’s special.




The rule says to park 2 authorized vehicles in the garage and that is what I am trying to do. So why am I not trying to comply?
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/20/2020 10:13 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 05/20/2020 9:50 AM
It Is getting more asinine the longer the conversation goes on, isn't it?

Bryant wants to be compliant with the rule by buying a motorcycle and putting that in the garage. Yes already said he keeps 2 of his 3 cars in the garage and one on the drivewY, which he has exclusive use of, and by all indications all of these vehicles are off the street.

Once again, I say WHAT IS THE DAMNNED problem here??? And why, oh why doesn't he just clean up his garage - who knows, maybe he'll even find enough room to squeeze in the third car. And I still don't see any indication where he's discussed this with the board - what is he afraid of?If

Bryant, you asked what would be the cheapest motorcycle to buy - another weird question. Buy the one you're likely to use and can afford it you're insisting on going this route. Meantime, this is too silly for me -I'm done with this conversation, so good luck in what you do.





Posted By BryanL4 on 05/19/2020 11:05 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 05/19/2020 10:34 AM
You have three cars and park two in the garage, and the third one is in the driveway - if the driveway leads up to the house, I would think it's not on the street, so what's the problem? Why do you think a motorcycle will resolve this when you'll end up with three cars AND a motorcycle to store? At least one of them will have to stay outside.

Or - are you planning to get rid of one car and replace it with a motorcycle, and if so, will two cars AND the motorcycle fit? If that's the case, go ahead - the motorcycle will be in the garage anyway and no one should have an issue with seeing it. That said, I still don't see why you need to buy one.

It sounds like the HOA is objecting to the third car being placed in the driveway and considering there are more homes that are 3 and 4 car households, I would think there needs to be a conversation about letting people park in the driveway of their homes. As long as the car, motorcycle, or whatever is off the street, that's what the HOA should be concerned about.

It doesn't sound like you've even discussed this with the board, so why don't you go to a meeting and express yourself? Better yet, talk to some of your neighbors to see if they have a similar problem - then all of you can attend the meeting. These aren't the 10 commandments - it does take a bit of work to change CCRs, but it CAN be done if you're willing to put in the work. If this rule is a board regulation, changing it should be even easier, provided the new rule doesn't contradict the CCRs. The board would prepare a new resolution, vote to approve it during an open meeting, and then provide updated instructions to the homeowners with an effective date.




No. see my original post.
I said, "I have 3 cars and I park 1 car in my garage and 2 on MY DRIVEWAY."




Please. read my carefully. I said I keep 1 car in the garage and 2 cars in the driveway.
ND
(PA)

Posts:440


05/20/2020 10:31 AM  
Haha . . . reading is hard Bryant!

And yeah, clean up your damn garage. It's a freaking mess. Obviously from what you've posted here, we can clearly conclude that you're a packrat, have too much crap, it's all over the place, and you're a disgrace to yourself and your neighborhood. Please clean things up and then you'll have room for all 3 of your cars and perhaps a boat or two.

Or maybe people are reading things that aren't there and assuming things that aren't true.
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/20/2020 10:38 AM  
Posted By ND on 05/20/2020 9:39 AM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/19/2020 9:18 PM
I disagree. He's absolutely trying to comply with the "letter of the law" . . . but perhaps not with your interpretation of the "spirit of the law".




The HOA actually sees and treat a motorcycle as the same way they look at a car.
One of neighbors keeps two motorcycles in his garage, HOA don't care how he uses the remaining space of the garage because he has two authorized vehicles in his garage which makes him in compliance. HOA does not argue with that.





Posted By ND on 05/20/2020 9:39 AM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/19/2020 9:18 PM
Presently, it's my interpretation that someone in his neighborhood with 6 cars can park 2 in garage, 2 in driveway, and 2 in street . . . and be in compliance.




Exactly!
Or someone has 3 cars, park 0 cars in his garage , 2 cars on driveway and try to park 1 car on the street.
TimM11


Posts:342


05/20/2020 1:31 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/19/2020 9:18 PM
I disagree - OP is not trying to comply ... he’s just looking for an angle ... he’s special.




He is trying to comply, albeit in a way the HOA probably didn't expect. Their rules allow two vehicles in the driveway if two are in the garage, so he's looking into getting a second vehicle for the garage that will bring him into compliance.

CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:953


05/20/2020 4:01 PM  
I agree that he is trying to comply with the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. On the other hand, if the board enforces anything other than the letter of the law, they risk winding up in court. This is why parking restrictions are such a pain in the keister. (And how would you even enforce this particular one unless you inspect the inside of people's garages, which I'm pretty sure our attorneys would consider out of line. If two cars on the driveway are OK, then it shouldn't matter why they're there. It's not like they're in the street blocking access.)

It's nonsense like this that helps explain why board members burn out so fast. WAY too much time and mental space given things that provide little to no benefit.
MarkW18


Posts:1067


05/20/2020 4:30 PM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/20/2020 4:01 PM
I agree that he is trying to comply with the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. On the other hand, if the board enforces anything other than the letter of the law, they risk winding up in court. This is why parking restrictions are such a pain in the keister. (And how would you even enforce this particular one unless you inspect the inside of people's garages, which I'm pretty sure our attorneys would consider out of line. If two cars on the driveway are OK, then it shouldn't matter why they're there. It's not like they're in the street blocking access.)

It's nonsense like this that helps explain why board members burn out so fast. WAY too much time and mental space given things that provide little to no benefit.



What law?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2681


05/20/2020 8:57 PM  
Shelia,

From the OP ... “I have 3 cars and I park 1 car in my garage and 2 on my driveway.”

To my reckoning, the OP is just trying to be special with a cute motorcycle angle ... ya know, special.
MarkW18


Posts:1067


05/20/2020 9:26 PM  
The language the OP posted was boilerplate language that after doing a google search found in in no less than 6 California HOA's, five which are condos, presumably with limited parking. I have no problem with trying to find a solution for limited parking, but having the same language in another HOA that is completely different with no parking limitation is plain lazy on the part of the developer and/or lawyers. One size doesn't fit all.

Most people living in a HOA don't realize that boilerplate language not specific to their community is used all the time. When an association restates their governing docs after homeowner turnover one of the items fixed is removed all mention of developer and declarant. In this instance, that might be one area that would have been removed.

In the OP's association you have to park two authorized vehicles in the garage before you can park on your own driveway. Once that requirement is satisfied, there is nothing stopping a homeowner from parking 10 vehicles on their driveway and in the streets. Makes logical sense to me.

If this HOA is as the OP stated and unless the association has a parking problem, this section would not be enforceable. I know from experience from a HOA in Porter Ranch, CA
BryanL4
(California)

Posts:21


05/21/2020 12:09 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 05/20/2020 9:26 PM


If this HOA is as the OP stated and unless the association has a parking problem, this section would not be enforceable. I know from experience from a HOA in Porter Ranch, CA





There is parking problem because some neighbors use their garage sorely as storage and take up street parking spaces to park their cars.
It would be ideal if HOA enforce this rule against those who park on the street only, then it would become a selective enforcement if I understand right.
I think this is why our HOA is trying to enforce this rule to everyone regardless you take up street parking space or not.


GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2681


05/21/2020 5:03 PM  
Sounds simple ...

Two car car garage with two cars, park both in garage.

Two car garage with three cars, park two in garage and one in driveway.

Etc.
MarkW18


Posts:1067


05/21/2020 5:33 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/21/2020 5:03 PM
Sounds simple ...

Two car car garage with two cars, park both in garage.

Two car garage with three cars, park two in garage and one in driveway.

Etc.



Nope, CCRs state "authorized vehicles".
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2681


05/21/2020 6:16 PM  
Car was my placeholder, since the POINT is ... OP is trying to play games with various angles when the point is ... cars.
AugustinD


Posts:3364


05/21/2020 6:22 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/21/2020 6:16 PM
Car was my placeholder, since the POINT is ... OP is trying to play games with various angles when the point is ... cars.


Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/19/2020 6:57 AM

Broad lessons learned:
- KNOW your governing documents - COLD. Be the expert. If you do, most will simply accept they are talking out their butts, and stop talking.

GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2681


05/21/2020 6:26 PM  
C’mon, this is just a fellow trying to game the docs...it isn’t about knowing the docs n order to effectively and gaily provide community governance, as I used the concept - you know this, Augustin.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2681


05/21/2020 6:33 PM  
“fairly”
AugustinD


Posts:3364


05/21/2020 6:38 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/21/2020 6:26 PM
C’mon, this is just a fellow trying to game the docs...it isn’t about knowing the docs n order to effectively and gaily provide community governance, as I used the concept - you know this, Augustin.
GeorgeS21, If your HOA had the covenant in question and defined "authorized vehicle" to include motorcycles (just as the OP's covenants do), and your board then had the manager tell the OP to put only cars in the garage, or else, I believe your HOA would have no legal leg on which to stand. The only party in this dispute that I would view as playing games would be your HOA.

MarkW18


Posts:1067


05/21/2020 6:59 PM  
Posted By BryanL4 on 05/21/2020 12:09 PM
Posted By MarkW18 on 05/20/2020 9:26 PM


If this HOA is as the OP stated and unless the association has a parking problem, this section would not be enforceable. I know from experience from a HOA in Porter Ranch, CA





There is parking problem because some neighbors use their garage sorely as storage and take up street parking spaces to park their cars.
It would be ideal if HOA enforce this rule against those who park on the street only, then it would become a selective enforcement if I understand right.
I think this is why our HOA is trying to enforce this rule to everyone regardless you take up street parking space or not.





Is there a parking problem or are owners using the street to park their car. Based on your posting of the CCRs, the association is not addressing a "parking problem". Again, speaking from experience.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2681


05/21/2020 7:38 PM  
The OP has been clear that he is gaming the docs by wanting to get a motorcycle to meet the rule ... I get that some on this site look at everything as a legal game, but this seems pretty clear to me.
MarkW18


Posts:1067


05/21/2020 8:18 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/21/2020 7:38 PM
The OP has been clear that he is gaming the docs by wanting to get a motorcycle to meet the rule ... I get that some on this site look at everything as a legal game, but this seems pretty clear to me.



Are you going to lose sleep over this?
AugustinD


Posts:3364


05/21/2020 9:05 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/21/2020 7:38 PM
The OP has been clear that he is gaming the docs by wanting to get a motorcycle to meet the rule ... I get that some on this site look at everything as a legal game, but this seems pretty clear to me.
What I get is that you would like to amend these covenants without doing the required membership vote. Who is violating the covenants? You.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2681


05/22/2020 5:41 AM  
Augustin,

Not sure I understand ... I haven’t commented wrt changing CCRs.

My comments have been to note the OP is gaming the docs by procuring a motorcycle so he doesn’t have to park a second car in the garage.
AugustinD


Posts:3364


05/22/2020 6:56 AM  
GeorgeS21, with regard to your position, I think the only issue that is important at this point is that the OP will find there are directors who will violate the covenants when they think a HOA member's action is not 'in the spirit' of the covenants, even though the member's action does conform with the covenants. Many of these directors will claim to 'know the covenants cold' and be able to defend their actions based on the covenants. When in fact they cannot.

It's fine. I think HOAs are a game for mostly amateurs. Having this reality documented here now and then has value.
TimM11


Posts:342


05/22/2020 7:02 AM  
George, what you call gaming the docs, is just what others of us view as following the CC&Rs to the letter. If the OP's HOA wants vehicles to specifically mean cars, trucks, whatever, then they can change the wording to say it.

No HOA resident has any obligation to follow the spirit or implied meaning of the docs, because that's going to look differently to different people. Only the actual text matters, thus the need for them to be carefully worded.

I don't know what the OP's HOA's intention around the wording is, but I suspect they would just as soon not have anyone park in their driveways at all, but realize they would get a lot of pushback for that, hence the wording they have now.
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