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Subject: HOA attorney
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Author Messages
JanetB9


Posts:15


03/14/2020 1:39 AM  
Can a Board member contact the HOA attorney if we have a contracted MC. MC contacts HOA attorney for the Board but can a Board member contact HOA attorney directly?
PatJ1
(North Carolina)

Posts:95


03/14/2020 6:26 AM  
Board should always be in contact with the attorney, not the MC. Our attorney asks that the Board approve correspondence by vote first.

Our MC only has contact with our attorney's office about collections.


Board members are volunteers. Many have no idea what they're doing. Educate them. Don't beat them up.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:728


03/14/2020 7:13 AM  
If the HOA or the board is the attorney's client, but it's the property manager who contacts the attorney, the protections of attorney-client privilege might be lost.

Only the client (the HOA or the board) should be contacting the attorney. An individual board member may contact the attorney without jeopardizing attorney-client privilege.

The result of losing attorney-client privilege is that in a lawsuit, the affected communications with the lawyer may have to be disclosed to the adverse party in the lawsuit, and those communications can be used against the HOA or the board.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


03/14/2020 7:29 AM  
Read your HOA's contract with the attorney. Often it will permit only one board member to contact the attorney. It usually is the president unless the Board elects some other director to be the contact person.

Our board often can vote to direct our PM to contact the attorney with a question or interpretation of our CC&Rs.

We have a board of seven so you can imagine that it could get pretty hectic if any director could contact the HOA attorney at any time.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9299


03/14/2020 9:50 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/14/2020 7:29 AM
Read your HOA's contract with the attorney. Often it will permit only one board member to contact the attorney. It usually is the president unless the Board elects some other director to be the contact person.

Our board often can vote to direct our PM to contact the attorney with a question or interpretation of our CC&Rs.

We have a board of seven so you can imagine that it could get pretty hectic if any director could contact the HOA attorney at any time.




I agree.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:728


03/14/2020 11:35 AM  
This apparent HOA standard of letting only one board member contact the HOA lawyer is not how corporate law works in general. In non-HOA situations the lawyer will take direction from the board but anyone can contact the HOA lawyer. What if the HOA President is stealing: nobody else can contact the HOA lawyer, and the HOA lawyer will take direction only from a thief? And as I’ve stated, if the property manager contacts the lawyer, then attorney-client privilege may be lost.

This is another reason why I consider HOA lawyer to be bottom of the barrel. No reputable lawyer would intentionally allow his or her communications to lose the protection of attorney-client privilege and no reputable lawyer would limit contact with the lawyer’s client. Thus, HOA lawyers who do such things are not reputable. When I battled one in litigation, he and his HOA client got shredded.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


03/14/2020 2:25 PM  
Our Board can, of course, vote to have a conference call with our attorney or see him in the event the prez is a crook or refuses to contact the attorney. As a board, we also can instruct our PM to make the call, but it's more typical that it'd be conference call among the prez, PM & counsel.

We've hired two GCs in the past 12 years and interviews with 3 firm's attorneys each time, and reading their proposals, one board member contact point is typical, at least in my part of CA.

Our Board pays an annual retainer of $500, which includes unlimited phone calls, attendence at a board meeting and attending and overseeing the annual meeting & election.

We've advised Janet previously to read her HOA's contracts, but apparently she hasn't yet.
AugustinD


Posts:2906


03/14/2020 3:27 PM  
I agree with KerryL1's posts to this thread.
Posted By PaulJ6 on 03/14/2020 11:35 AM
This apparent HOA standard of letting only one board member contact the HOA lawyer is not how corporate law works in general. In non-HOA situations the lawyer will take direction from the board but anyone can contact the HOA lawyer.
I figure non-profits with no infrastructure to maintain rarely have disputes that raise people's ire the way HOA non-profits do. Non-profits are not collecting dues from shareholders, after all. I would toss in that the typical non-HOA, non-Condo, non-profit doing charity work typically has people who want to build their reputations on their boards. For profits have money to burn with typically well-experienced corporate board members.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2299


03/14/2020 4:44 PM  
Hmmm ... guess I need to ask our attorney if she feels like she’s the bottom of the barrel.

Seriously, Paul?
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:706


03/14/2020 7:28 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/14/2020 2:25 PM


Our Board pays an annual retainer of $500, which includes unlimited phone calls, attendence at a board meeting and attending and overseeing the annual meeting & election.


I've dealt with CA attorney contracts. An attorney in CA, their hourly rate is $300-500 per hour. They bill at quarter hour increments, or $100.00. One 15 minute call per month equals $1200.00 year. One 2-hour board meeting equals $800.00, plus travel. Annual meeting the same, another $800.00. That's quite a lot for $500.00?

MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:706


03/14/2020 7:39 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 03/14/2020 7:28 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/14/2020 2:25 PM


Our Board pays an annual retainer of $500, which includes unlimited phone calls, attendence at a board meeting and attending and overseeing the annual meeting & election.


I've dealt with CA attorney contracts. An attorney in CA, their hourly rate is $300-500 per hour. They bill at quarter hour increments, or $100.00. One 15 minute call per month equals $1200.00 year. One 2-hour board meeting equals $800.00, plus travel. Annual meeting the same, another $800.00. That's quite a lot for $500.00?




BTW, just an observation
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


03/14/2020 7:52 PM  
You've questioned my integrity & honesty in the past on this topic, MarkW. Projection?

In reviewing our contract, I was mistaken: I see, p. 1, "The Association shall be charged Six Hundred Dollars ($600.00) as an annual retainer to be billed in four quarterly payment of One Hundred Fifty Dollars ($150.00) per quarter."

"Retainer Services" include: "ii No charge phone calls with board liaison; iii Attendance at one Annual Meeting and one Board Meeting..."

We pay $250/hr for partner's time; $225/hr for associate's time; $125/hr for law clerks & paralegals. they actually bill at 1/10th hr. increments. The firm is sizable & in classy downtown offices about eight blocks from our HOA.

These service and fees didn't vary much among the 6 firms we interviewed.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:706


03/14/2020 8:23 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/14/2020 7:52 PM
You've questioned my integrity & honesty in the past on this topic, MarkW. Projection?

In reviewing our contract, I was mistaken: I see, p. 1, "The Association shall be charged Six Hundred Dollars ($600.00) as an annual retainer to be billed in four quarterly payment of One Hundred Fifty Dollars ($150.00) per quarter."

"Retainer Services" include: "ii No charge phone calls with board liaison; iii Attendance at one Annual Meeting and one Board Meeting..."

We pay $250/hr for partner's time; $225/hr for associate's time; $125/hr for law clerks & paralegals. they actually bill at 1/10th hr. increments. The firm is sizable & in classy downtown offices about eight blocks from our HOA.

These service and fees didn't vary much among the 6 firms we interviewed.



I never questioned your integrity or honesty, EVER. I was speaking from experience. I paid CA HOA attorney invoices with annual retainers. Any partner I ever dealt with was a minimum $325.00 hr.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:706


03/14/2020 8:38 PM  
Seven years ago, the subject on having an attorney on retainer camp up on this forum. This is one response from a person who was well-respected here.

In my area there are several law firms specializing in HOA law who charge around $50 a month to be "on retainer." For that $50, the HOA can receive advice by phone on virtually any HOA-related topic.

Sounds good, right?

The reality is that most HOA board members have no experience with hiring attorneys and are sitting ducks for these weasels to pick off. The quality of their "free" advice is just what you paid for.

The game these lawyers play is that when the HOA wishes to file suit for non-payment, the lawyers soak the HOA with unbelievable fees. We had one of these law firms who charged us over $150,000 to file suit against 50 delinquent owners to collect about $25,000 in unpaid assessments.

Our development is made up of unimproved large parcels and not one of the delinquent owners lives on their parcel. In fact, the last known address we had for most of them is out-of-state. You cannot obtain a money judgment against a person you cannot find and serve, yet our attorney filed one lawsuit after another collecting his fees in advance for services that he knew he would never render. And of course the board paid and paid and paid.

There were a couple of lawsuits that did get served. One was upon a local woman who failed to pay a $15 late fee because no one ever told her she owed it. To settle the lawsuit against her she had to pay the attorney some $4,000. Had I known of this beforehand, I would have advised her to go to trial. The judge would be unlikely to find in favor of the association as she had paid every amount they had ever billed her for and even if she lost, the judge is required by law to limit the amount of the lawyers fees to a "reasonable" amount. No judge is going to find it reasonable to charge $4,000 to collect $15.00 that the plaintiff never sought before filing a lawsuit.

Another lawsuit that did get served went all the way to foreclosure and the sheriff issued a deed to the property to the association. Too bad there is a superior lien on the property, so the deed will eventually be invalidated. The attorney had already been reprimanded twice by the court of appeals for pursuing similar actions for other associations, so it was not like it should have been news to him that he cannot foreclose when there is a lender's lien on the property.

My advice is to stay away from budget attorneys. They are sharks waiting to prey on the next unsuspecting HOA board.
AugustinD


Posts:2906


03/15/2020 8:36 AM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 03/14/2020 8:38 PM
Seven years ago, the subject on having an attorney on retainer camp up on this forum. This is one response from a person who was well-respected here.
I know all here can google, but perhaps to expedite: I see the passage MarkW18 posted is from (the late) LarryB13 of Arizona in 2013. I remember reading his posts and finding his thoughts superior. I believe LarryB13's wife checked in here at hoatalk after he died. His posts did appear to be respected.

Else I know KerryL1 knows what she is doing, and then some, when it comes to helping her board hire attorneys.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:706


03/15/2020 9:03 AM  
I comments were directed at attorneys on retainers.

I know of an association that had an attorney/law firm on an annual retainer. Within 18 months, the legal fee was $250K.

My question to anyone, is, IF they had an annual retainer what was their annual legal expense over, say, 5 years? Or was the $500 or $600 all your association paid.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:3048


03/15/2020 9:33 AM  
We use our attorney the way Kerry suggested and it's worked out well for us.

As for Mark's question, I thought about the last five years I was on the board and I think we averaged between $6K and $10K - mostly because we had a huge problem with delinquencies at the time. The president and I were the official liaisons (I was treasurer at the time), but we were able to control the number of contacts (mostly email) because I'd meet with him at the beginning of the year and review the accounts to develop an overall plan to address them. From there, it was a matter of him sending monthly updates which were part of our delinquency report, so we didn't have too many questions.

As for the quality of HOA attorneys, I've said before it's a dangerous thing to generalize about anything. There's good and bad in any field, so people need to do their due diligence by asking for references and CHECKING them before hiring, reading the retainer agreements before signing them, and do an evaluation at the end of the year so they know what they're getting and whether it was worth the cost. It's amazing how so many people fail to do that.

I believe a good attorney will work with you so that you can reduce the need for his/her services and if they aren't willing todo that, you should consider getting someone else.
KellyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:1485


03/15/2020 11:53 AM  
Posted By JanetB9 on 03/14/2020 1:39 AM
Can a Board member contact the HOA attorney if we have a contracted MC. MC contacts HOA attorney for the Board but can a Board member contact HOA attorney directly?




You will inadvertently drive up your HOA's legal expenses. Ask your question through the property manager for an answer at the appropriate time. Otherwise, my bet is the board president will likely (and quietly) request that you be ignored in order to save on unnecessary legal costs.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9299


03/15/2020 1:14 PM  
When we have an owner delinquent by 60 days, our MC sends an invoice showing amount owed and late fees added. At 90 days our MC sends another letter threatening legal action if not paid. At the end of 120 days our attorney will send a Certified Letter saying if not paid in 15 days, he will commence legal action. Our attorney charges us $150 plus $7 for Certified. This amount is specified in the latter to be in addition to any delinquent dues and late charges and payable to the HOA.

Posted to show typical legal charges.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:728


03/15/2020 4:28 PM  
My advice is to stay away from budget attorneys. They are sharks waiting to prey on the next unsuspecting HOA board.




Agreed. Unfortunately pretty much anyone can get a JD and pass a bar exam. Thus any moron can be an attorney. Somehow HOA boards and non-lawyers give credibility to morons with JDs, when a non-lawyer with sense and integrity would be better for so many things.

If your HOA went a dinkier college and law school than residents in your HOA, you're asking for problems.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:9127


03/15/2020 4:46 PM  
My approach to our lawyer(s) were they were tools. They were like hiring an Electrician or a plumber. They were licensed contractors who specialized in the law. HOA or myself do NOT practice law nor qualified to do so. So I'd hire lawyers based on our needs. Which was rarely a Real Estate attorney. Usually choose one for filing liens or foreclosures. If it was to be for a lawsuit, I'd hire one that specialized in that.

I do have some law knowledge from college. This allowed me to be a bit more knowledgeable about how to properly use a lawyer. Otherwise, they could easily run you over. Learned never ever trust a lawyer that says "I will do whatever you tell me to do". It usually means there are more options available they aren't telling you about.

Former HOA President
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


03/15/2020 4:49 PM  
Why, MarkW, would anyone think the retainer services were the only services used in a year in a very financially complex twin-tower high rise with equally complex CC&Rs?

In our urban zip code of maybe 40-50 condo buildings, maybe 30 of which are high rises, PMs know one another very well and socialize frequently to share contacts, advice, etc. Our PMs have been extremely helpful in aiding us in evaluating the vendors we interview, including general counsel. If one were a "shark" "budget attorney," our PM would know about it. It's the PM who generally recommends firms to consider in the first place.

Our brand new PM has had 14 years of experience managing 3 high rise HOAs in our zip code. She has very strong contacts and will, I'm certain, be able to rec excellent vendors of all kinds based on experience.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:728


03/15/2020 5:10 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/15/2020 4:46 PM
Learned never ever trust a lawyer that says "I will do whatever you tell me to do". It usually means there are more options available they aren't telling you about.




Agreed, and it means that the lawyer is either not knowledgeable or is unethical, since so many things that are "common sense" or seem normal are, for one reason or another, either a bad idea from a legal perspective, or illegal.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:706


03/15/2020 6:06 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/15/2020 4:49 PM
Why, MarkW, would anyone think the retainer services were the only services used in a year in a very financially complex twin-tower high rise with equally complex CC&Rs?

In our urban zip code of maybe 40-50 condo buildings, maybe 30 of which are high rises, PMs know one another very well and socialize frequently to share contacts, advice, etc. Our PMs have been extremely helpful in aiding us in evaluating the vendors we interview, including general counsel. If one were a "shark" "budget attorney," our PM would know about it. It's the PM who generally recommends firms to consider in the first place.

Our brand new PM has had 14 years of experience managing 3 high rise HOAs in our zip code. She has very strong contacts and will, I'm certain, be able to rec excellent vendors of all kinds based on experience.



It was a question solely based on your response.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2299


03/15/2020 6:25 PM  
I don’t think there any morons who become attorneys ... being an attorney simply requires more effort and intellect than the average population can provide.

Now, among attorneys there are many, many dislikeable, disagreeable horrid ones ... probably more so than other professions.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:706


03/15/2020 6:29 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 03/15/2020 6:25 PM
I don’t think there any morons who become attorneys ... being an attorney simply requires more effort and intellect than the average population can provide.

Now, among attorneys there are many, many dislikeable, disagreeable horrid ones ... probably more so than other professions.



That would be something I agree on.
AugustinD


Posts:2906


03/15/2020 6:39 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 03/15/2020 6:25 PM
I don’t think there [are] any morons who become attorneys
Federal student loans exploded a few years ago. Businesses saw an opportunity to open law schools and take this money from law students. The key was to lower standards far enough that any doofus could be admitted to the law school. Several for profit law schools opened and turned out idiots for graduates. The bar passage rate of these graduates is low. Of those who do pass the bar: I would not count on them for sound legal advice. See https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/09/the-law-school-scam/375069/

State disciplinary boards time and again publish the records of disciplined attorneys. It takes a lot to be sanctioned by these boards. But the idiots who are sanctioned are abundant.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:728


03/15/2020 11:44 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 03/15/2020 6:39 PM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 03/15/2020 6:25 PM
I don’t think there [are] any morons who become attorneys
Federal student loans exploded a few years ago. Businesses saw an opportunity to open law schools and take this money from law students. The key was to lower standards far enough that any doofus could be admitted to the law school. Several for profit law schools opened and turned out idiots for graduates. The bar passage rate of these graduates is low. Of those who do pass the bar: I would not count on them for sound legal advice. See https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/09/the-law-school-scam/375069/

State disciplinary boards time and again publish the records of disciplined attorneys. It takes a lot to be sanctioned by these boards. But the idiots who are sanctioned are abundant.




Agreed.

Anyone who doesn’t know of any morons who become lawyers hasn’t worked with a lot of attorneys.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3664


03/16/2020 8:45 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 03/15/2020 6:25 PM
I don’t think there any morons who become attorneys ... being an attorney simply requires more effort and intellect than the average population can provide.

Now, among attorneys there are many, many dislikeable, disagreeable horrid ones ... probably more so than other professions.

Recommendation for Post Subtitle: "Why are so many politicians lawyers?"
AugustinD


Posts:2906


03/16/2020 9:03 AM  
Posted By GenoS on 03/16/2020 8:45 AM
Recommendation for Post Subtitle: "Why are so many politicians lawyers?"
Am I missing a joke? the main responsibility of elected politicians is reviewing laws, so of course attorneys are common among politicans.

My concern is the high number of business persons serving in Congress:

Table 2. Most Frequently Listed Occupational Categories by Members, 116th Congress [January, 2020]. At the beginning of the 116th Congress:
Occupation Representatives Senators
Public Service/Politics 184 47
Business 183 29
Law 145 47
Education 73 20

See https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R45583.pdf
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3664


03/16/2020 9:28 AM  
Well the "joke" is that both occupations are known for lying and stretching the truth on virtually all subjects known to man (and woman).

Q:"How do you know your attorney is lying?"
A:"His lips are moving."

I thought that was pretty standard.
AugustinD


Posts:2906


03/16/2020 9:34 AM  
Okay.
I think politicians have a hard job. I think it's almost as hard as serving as a HOA director. Yet they are both necessary jobs. When someone says politicians lie, because she or he did not do what was promised, I think, "No, they are mostly stuck with constant compromise in order to make progress." I think it is awful to be in internal conflict when one knows what the right thing to do is but has to settle for something less.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2299


03/16/2020 9:40 AM  
I’m gonna stick my assessment ... attorneys are way brighter than the average population.

Many of you are overestimating the average population, I think.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:706


03/16/2020 9:40 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 03/16/2020 9:34 AM
Okay.
I think politicians have a hard job. I think it's almost as hard as serving as a HOA director. Yet they are both necessary jobs. When someone says politicians lie, because she or he did not do what was promised, I think, "No, they are mostly stuck with constant compromise in order to make progress." I think it is awful to be in internal conflict when one knows what the right thing to do is but has to settle for something less.



Compromise went out 30 years ago. What we have is partisanship and the hell with the people.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:728


03/16/2020 9:51 AM  
I've served in government. It was a different skill set than being a lawyer.

If lawyers lie, they can get disbarred. That is a huge penalty- loss of one's livelihood- so reputable lawyers will go above and beyond to ensure that everything that they say is truthful, no matter who they say it to.

If politicians lie, they won't necessarily risk losing their livelihood.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9299


03/16/2020 9:56 AM  
When I was in business, I had two attorneys I used. One was a gentleman who I used when it was a straight on, all parties agreed type transaction like selling property, agreeing to a contract, etc. The other was a tenacious mad dog I used when fighting insurance claims, governments, etc. He never let go.

My present HOA uses two attorneys. One is a very large company that specializes in HOA's. He is our attorney of record. When it comes to Covenants, Bylaws, R&R's we use him. His firms name/reputation does scare some potential threateners off. Our other attorney is a partner in a small, general law type firm. We use him for warning letters, late dues collections, liens, etc.

There is local ambulance chase lawyer that advertises heavily on TV. I know for a fact he has 20 some odd lawyers working for him and only one of them has ever seen the inside of a courtroom.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3664


03/16/2020 9:58 AM  
I agree with Mark. For whatever reason, I have very little sympathy for any politician of any party. Most of them are in it to enrich themselves or their "donors" (the ones who hand out the bribes). I hold them in very low esteem, somewhat below used-car salesmen on the scale of "honest and trustworthy".

Lawyers in general, I'd rate somewhat higher based on interactions and relationships I've had over the years. There are some real bad ones out there, though.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3664


03/16/2020 10:01 AM  
AugustinD, thanks for that R45583 link. I hadn't seen one of those in a long time. Very interesting.
AugustinD


Posts:2906


03/16/2020 10:28 AM  
Posted By PaulJ6 on 03/16/2020 9:51 AM
If lawyers lie, they can get disbarred. That is a huge penalty- loss of one's livelihood- so reputable lawyers will go above and beyond to ensure that everything that they say is truthful, no matter who they say it to.
Classic example of why attorneys lie when representing their clients: Even when a client has confessed committing a crime to an attorney, giving all the details and with the attorney's investigators confirming the evidence, the attorney will not be disbarred for declaring to all, "My client is innocent!"

The nature of the U. S. adversarial system is such that attorneys are legally required to suspend reality when representing clients. Lying is required in order to zealously representing a client.

We have had this discussion before. For HOA members, my point is: Do not ever trust a HOA attorney to be telling you the truth. Chances are good the HOA attorney is not telling you the truth. If the HOA attorney fails to make clear that she or he represents the HOA (via direction from its board), and proceeds to give a HOA member (who is an adverse party to the HOA because of some dispute), legal advice or legal interpretations of the law, the HOA member should consider reporting this HOA attorney to the state Disciplinary Board. (And yes, I agree Yale attorneys are highly unlikely to be so stupid.)
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:728


03/16/2020 10:43 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 03/16/2020 10:28 AM
Posted By PaulJ6 on 03/16/2020 9:51 AM
Do not ever trust a HOA attorney to be telling you the truth. Chances are good the HOA attorney is not telling you the truth. If the HOA attorney fails to make clear that she or he represents the HOA (via direction from its board), and proceeds to give a HOA member (who is an adverse party to the HOA because of some dispute), legal advice or legal interpretations of the law, the HOA member should consider reporting this HOA attorney to the state Disciplinary Board. (And yes, I agree Yale attorneys are highly unlikely to be so stupid.)




Agreed.

I am not a criminal lawyer or even a white-collar criminal lawyer so I have no idea whatsoever about how criminal law operates. I'll of course defer to you on that.
AugustinD


Posts:2906


03/16/2020 10:52 AM  
Posted By PaulJ6 on 03/16/2020 10:43 AM
I am not a criminal lawyer or even a white-collar criminal lawyer so I have no idea whatsoever about how criminal law operates. I'll of course defer to you on that.
I trust you are joshing. I laughed, anyway
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:728


03/16/2020 11:01 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 03/16/2020 10:52 AM
Posted By PaulJ6 on 03/16/2020 10:43 AM
I am not a criminal lawyer or even a white-collar criminal lawyer so I have no idea whatsoever about how criminal law operates. I'll of course defer to you on that.
I trust you are joshing. I laughed, anyway




Sorry, foot in mouth.

Part of your post was about a client that committed a crime. I have no idea about how criminal law operates in practice. So I have confidence that what you say is correct--not just because you consistently make excellent points, but because I have zero idea about that particular topic.
AugustinD


Posts:2906


03/16/2020 11:26 AM  
Thirty years ago I read a couple of Alan Dershowitz's books. They are intended to appeal to laypeople. They are not academic treatises. I found them simple-minded and self-promoting, but somewhat instructive on why criminal defense attorneys behave as they do. Then I followed the Oklahoma City Bomber's (Tim McVeigh's) defense attorney Stephen Jones circa 1997. You may recall Jones fabricated a document that said McVeigh had confessed but said the purpose of the so-called "confession" was to get a witness to talk. See ttps://oklahoman.com/article/2574838/attorneys-ethics-questioned-bombing-defense-claim-of-faking-confession-cited
. As a layperson, I raised an eyebrow. A number of prominent attorneys questioned what Jones did. I do not think he ever faced disciplinary action.

I am glad members of Congress gave Dershowitz hell for some statements Dershowitz made during the Senate trial of Trump. It was great to see Dershowitz realize his reputation has kind of gone down the commode and try to backpedal. The New Yorker did a hatchet job on Dershowitz not long ago as well.

Because the coronavirus is here, for laughs see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c5neBXQwf8
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


03/16/2020 6:59 PM  
Per MarkW's question way above, rounded, we paid our GC about $6,000 in both '17 & '18, and $5,200 in '16. The work they did for us was sometimes long (e.g., 6-8 pages) of interpretation of our CC&Rs. We had no legal action during the period.

No HOA member would receive any reply from our & most HOA attorneys, I believe, because the Association, not any individual member, is the client.

We have different firm of collection attorneys for that type of work.

I disagree that attorneys are "smarter" than non-attorneys. The way see it, those with advanced degrees, including waaay advanced degrees in any field, have them because they were highly motivated, for whatever reason, to work hard enough to achieve the degree.

Meanwhile what the heck happened to Janet???
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:728


03/16/2020 7:09 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/16/2020 6:59 PM
I disagree that attorneys are "smarter" than non-attorneys.




You are correct.

I find it so surprising that HOAs sometimes have some sort of reverence for their counsel just because s/he is a lawyer. ANYONE can get a law degree and be admitted to practice. Lots of morons with JDs.

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