Get 1 year of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Monday, March 30, 2020











HOATalk is a free service of Community123.com:

Get 1 free year community website and email newsletter hosting from Community123.com!
Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.
Subject: Car Dealer Selling Used Cars
Prev Next
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Author Messages
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


02/21/2020 1:47 PM  
Our CC&Rs state the lots and common areas are only to be used a single family residence. There is a car dealer owner who periodically sells used cars with dealer license plates from his lot and the common areas. He sells one or two used cars at a time (periodically) with dealer license plates from his lot or common areas. I know this because I have seen his online classified ads with his name and telephone number in the ad along with the intersection of our complex and photos of the car with dealer license plates on the common street next to his house. In one ad, he even pictured himself next to the car he was trying to sell. An internet search of this person reveals that he does not have an off-site used car lot, so presumably he buys one or two used cars at a time and then sells them from his home. Assumingly, his used car business is based out of his house, a violation of the CC&Rs.

Suppose in the future, he ceases to advertise used cars online, but still parks cars with dealer license plates on his lot or common area. Would that still be a violation of the CC&Rs? One Board member has personally seem him negotiate a transaction/the sale of a used car on the premises. The owner has also personally asked me if I'm interested in buying a specific car he was selling.

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


02/21/2020 1:58 PM  
Our CC&Rs say owners may not use the common areas to store their personal belongings or possessions. There's some elaboration of this in our Rules & Regs.

Don't your CC&Rs say something similar, NpB? Or your Rules & Regs?
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


02/21/2020 2:15 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/21/2020 1:58 PM
Our CC&Rs say owners may not use the common areas to store their personal belongings or possessions. There's some elaboration of this in our Rules & Regs.

Don't your CC&Rs say something similar, NpB? Or your Rules & Regs?





The CC&Rs state "No part of the Property shall be used other than as a Single Family Residence and the related common purposed for which the Property was designed."

It also states "No Owner shall place or permit any personal property, garbage, debris, or refuse to be placed or to accumulate on any portion of the Common Areas adjacent to any Lot.

That could technically mean his used cars.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3664


02/21/2020 3:11 PM  
So fine him accordingly and, if you can't, figure out why not and rectify the problem.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


02/21/2020 3:13 PM  
Geno's right.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


02/21/2020 3:13 PM  
Geno's right.
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3599


02/21/2020 4:38 PM  
Many car dealers drive the cars home that they are selling, its common. Do they still have prices attached? Yep.

Is there another entrance to his house with separate kitchen, bathroom, bedrooms? No? Its a single family house, not a duplex.

Everyone works from home at some level now. Might be computer, telephone, etc. That does NOT make it a home based business with traffic flowing to and from the home with the public visiting, etc.

I'd leave him alone even though you hate him.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


02/21/2020 5:45 PM  
The point is, Steve, he's parking these cars on common area which is against this HOA's CC&Rs. .
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3599


02/21/2020 6:01 PM  
One car? Two cars? And he is driving them?

How is this against your rules for normal people?
How would it be different for him?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2299


02/21/2020 6:14 PM  
If the car dealer is repetitively selling cars from his home, or from the common property - it is NOT an in home business.

Cite the owner - start the process!
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


02/21/2020 6:48 PM  
Posted By SteveM9 on 02/21/2020 6:01 PM
One car? Two cars? And he is driving them?

How is this against your rules for normal people?
How would it be different for him?





Yes, he is driving these vehicles.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


02/21/2020 7:05 PM  
Wait, NB. What is this common area? A parking lot for residents? A grassy field? A playground? Are other cars allowed to park in this area?? I feel like maybe you left something out....
DeidreB
(Virginia)

Posts:76


02/22/2020 3:45 PM  
It's funny. I have been through this exact same thing in another community. The only differences were that our home owner/car dealer was dropping off a car or two at a time in our HOA common area (private) streets with a very large pick up truck, pulling a multi-car carrier trailer. It usually happened during the weekday when our streets were fairly empty of cars and many people were at work. He would then leave them in place for a while and then they'd disappear. It was not every day or many cars. Occasionally a car detailer would show up and detail the car in our common area (private) streets. Sometimes he would drive a Porsche or Ferrari in and park it in his garage which likely added another illegally parked resident car in guest (street) parking. Our CCR's I recall were fairly similar in that we were not allowed to have a home business that increased the burden on our limited guest parking or which inconvenienced people.

Because no one ever complained of this practice and he often had fancy sport cars which were cool looking and thus somewhat enhanced the image some members had of our community, I did not pursue it. It added to our parking burden and was technically wrong but without some level of concern from members, it would have been a fool's errand for me to pursue it alone.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2299


02/22/2020 3:49 PM  
Deidre,

What you describe is not a home business.
DeidreB
(Virginia)

Posts:76


02/22/2020 4:56 PM  
Thanks George I did not pursue it because I knew it was murky. I guess just using the common areas for his drop offs and sales prep in our common area from time to time would not qualify as a home business or business run out of common areas which I suspect was outside our covenants. But his cars were not guest's cars so he was definitely in violation of our parking covenants.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:613


02/22/2020 6:28 PM  
Posted By NpB on 02/21/2020 1:47 PM
Our CC&Rs state the lots and common areas are only to be used a single family residence. There is a car dealer owner who periodically sells used cars with dealer license plates from his lot and the common areas. He sells one or two used cars at a time (periodically) with dealer license plates from his lot or common areas. I know this because I have seen his online classified ads with his name and telephone number in the ad along with the intersection of our complex and photos of the car with dealer license plates on the common street next to his house. In one ad, he even pictured himself next to the car he was trying to sell. An internet search of this person reveals that he does not have an off-site used car lot, so presumably he buys one or two used cars at a time and then sells them from his home. Assumingly, his used car business is based out of his house, a violation of the CC&Rs.

Suppose in the future, he ceases to advertise used cars online, but still parks cars with dealer license plates on his lot or common area. Would that still be a violation of the CC&Rs? One Board member has personally seem him negotiate a transaction/the sale of a used car on the premises. The owner has also personally asked me if I'm interested in buying a specific car he was selling.





I would not assume that CCRs that say that the lots are for single family residences necessarily means you cannot operate a business. Single family residence usually describes a type of residence, not its use. There is probably case law in Arizona addressing this since CC&Rs within the same state often use similar language.

In Texas, for example, many CC&Rs say lots are for residential purposes only, or similar language. Case law says that a business does not violate the residential purposes clause unless it changes the character of the neighborhood. Things like noise and additional traffic would be considered.

I would recommend speaking to an attorney before trying to enforce something on ambiguous CC&Rs.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


02/28/2020 12:27 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/21/2020 7:05 PM
Wait, NB. What is this common area? A parking lot for residents? A grassy field? A playground? Are other cars allowed to park in this area?? I feel like maybe you left something out....





The common area are the roads which the association maintains. In the past, he has had online used auto advertisements with pictures of the vehicle with dealer license plates in the common HOA maintained road. CC&Rs state property is for single family use only.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


02/28/2020 9:10 AM  
If your documents have no limits on the number of cars each residence can have parked on the a road, I don't see how he's violation of storing things in the common areas since everyone can park apparently any number of vehicles on these roads.

Others have replied about the use of his home. I now agree with
Ben (& Steve): if his business is not creating extra traffic, parking problems or noise, I'd leave him alone.
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3599


02/28/2020 6:02 PM  
I once knew a guy who owned multiple large car dealerships. Easily a millionaire. He drove a new car home every 1000 miles. So did his daughter and wife. They all did. All cars were for sale and still had the stickers on the window. No one ever bothered him. Seems to be common in this line of work.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


03/06/2020 12:00 PM  
Would an owner who is an unlicensed cosmetologist and has clients over a few times per month be violating the CC&Rs?

How about a licensed psychotherapist owner who owns a house and treats patients in her house? Owner has a few patients a week.

Just because those two examples as well as a car dealer selling cars from his house doesn't create traffic, doesn't mean it's against the rules. CC&Rs clearly state that property is for single family use only.


If Ihad 900 friends and three visited daily, that would create extra neighborhood traffic and parking. However, I would be breaking no HOA CC&Rs.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9299


03/06/2020 12:06 PM  
Posted By NpB on 03/06/2020 12:00 PM
Would an owner who is an unlicensed cosmetologist and has clients over a few times per month be violating the CC&Rs?

How about a licensed psychotherapist owner who owns a house and treats patients in her house? Owner has a few patients a week.

Just because those two examples as well as a car dealer selling cars from his house doesn't create traffic, doesn't mean it's against the rules. CC&Rs clearly state that property is for single family use only.


If Ihad 900 friends and three visited daily, that would create extra neighborhood traffic and parking. However, I would be breaking no HOA CC&Rs.




Technically they would be. One judge has always been is it generating traffic that otherwise would not normally be there? Also are they posting their home address as their business address and inviting customers to stop by. Remember there are many home businesses no one knows about as they do not generate traffic and are low key operations.

I remember one complainer saying that UPS picked up packages at one home quite often so it must be a home business.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:706


03/06/2020 12:08 PM  
Posted By NpB on 03/06/2020 12:00 PM
If I had 900 friends



We should all be that lucky!
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


03/06/2020 3:12 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/06/2020 12:06 PM
Posted By NpB on 03/06/2020 12:00 PM
Would an owner who is an unlicensed cosmetologist and has clients over a few times per month be violating the CC&Rs?

How about a licensed psychotherapist owner who owns a house and treats patients in her house? Owner has a few patients a week.

Just because those two examples as well as a car dealer selling cars from his house doesn't create traffic, doesn't mean it's against the rules. CC&Rs clearly state that property is for single family use only.


If Ihad 900 friends and three visited daily, that would create extra neighborhood traffic and parking. However, I would be breaking no HOA CC&Rs.




Technically they would be. One judge has always been is it generating traffic that otherwise would not normally be there? Also are they posting their home address as their business address and inviting customers to stop by. Remember there are many home businesses no one knows about as they do not generate traffic and are low key operations.

I remember one complainer saying that UPS picked up packages at one home quite often so it must be a home business.






So then the threshold is the amount of traffic it brings to the neighborhood? There could be an IT consultant in my neighborhood who runs a consulting firm out of his house, yet no clients visit him, since he could work solely by computer, vs a cosmetologist or psychotherapist who needs to see clients in person. Should the IT consultant be exempt?

Why would the car dealer advertise used cars with vehicle dealer plates from his house, vs a used car lot? To me, that's operating a business out of your house.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9299


03/06/2020 3:56 PM  
Np

You keep wanting black and white answers and raising some hypotheticals. There are no such thing as black and white answers and they are often changing based on the thinking of the present BOD Running any corporation, which HOA's are) is not black and white.

Myself, The IT guy gets a pass.

If I may ask, what did you do for a living in a prior life?
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4211


03/06/2020 9:16 PM  
Np ... You stated:

“ CC&Rs state "No part of the Property shall be used other than as a Single Family Residence and the related common purposed for which the Property was designed."

It also states "No Owner shall place or permit any personal property, garbage, debris, or refuse to be placed or to accumulate on any portion of the Common Areas adjacent to any Lot.”

LOL .. Appears you are correct that NO part of property shall be used for other than Single Family Residence. AND also NO owner shall place or permit any personal property on any Common Areas. So my question is why is an owener placing “personal property” (even though his business) on any Common Area and has not yet faced serious HOA personal FINES! He is playing the game ... learn to play the Game BETTER!!!
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3664


03/09/2020 3:22 PM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 03/06/2020 9:16 PM
So my question is why is an owener placing “personal property” (even though his business) on any Common Area and has not yet faced serious HOA personal FINES! He is playing the game ... learn to play the Game BETTER!!!

Probably too much work. It's a lot easier to just complain.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


03/09/2020 6:39 PM  
W/o re-reading the OP's replies somewhere above, I think s/he wrote the cars are parked on the street where everyone parks their cars.
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3599


03/10/2020 1:03 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/09/2020 6:39 PM
W/o re-reading the OP's replies somewhere above, I think s/he wrote the cars are parked on the street where everyone parks their cars.




So by that logic......i guess no one can have cars.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:7036


03/10/2020 1:21 PM  
Well, Steve, my logic is that sine everyone can park on the street--some homes may have many cars, the car dealer can have a couple of cars on it too.

The OP's logic seems to be the opposite.
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3599


03/10/2020 2:03 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/10/2020 1:21 PM
Well, Steve, my logic is that sine everyone can park on the street--some homes may have many cars, the car dealer can have a couple of cars on it too.

The OP's logic seems to be the opposite.




I know.

She just wants to ban 1 resident from owning a car. Good luck with that.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9299


03/10/2020 2:51 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/10/2020 1:21 PM
Well, Steve, my logic is that sine everyone can park on the street--some homes may have many cars, the car dealer can have a couple of cars on it too.

The OP's logic seems to be the opposite.




While I personally might not like this approach, I agree with it.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


03/23/2020 11:20 PM  
Car dealer claims she/he uses the common property solely for photographs to market vehicles in ads and does not sell vehicles from the property and wants to know who was the "tattle tale".

Does the Board need to respond and out the "tattle tale"? Car dealer received a "Courtesy Letter" with no fine, indicating Property is for single family residential use only, so there is no formal appeal.
ND
(PA)

Posts:407


03/24/2020 6:04 AM  
Is this hypothetical or an actual situation?!

No there should rarely be a case of the complainer (tattletale) being outed. Once a complaint is made, it must be verified by Board/Management to be an actual violation of the governing documents. Once verified as an actual violation, the Board/Management take on the role of complainer (tattletale) . . . so if there is need to "out" anyone, it is the Board/Management and not the homeowner(s) who initially complained.

Only in the case of a he-said-she-said situation (where Board/Management cannot physically confirm a violation) does "outing" the complainer even need to be considered. And in my opinion, this would only occur at a hearing that the complained voluntarily agreed to attend so they could provide their testimony as to what they saw, heard, witnessed.
ND
(PA)

Posts:407


03/24/2020 6:11 AM  
To add to this . . . as others mentioned earlier in your post . . . your position of the property being "for single family residential use only" as to why the person cannot do what they are doing is likely an inaccurate position to be taking.

Single Family Residence is an architectural/legal description meaning that your houses are structures maintained and used as a single dwelling unit.


"Single family residence means a structure maintained and used as a single dwelling unit. Even though a dwelling unit may share one or more walls with another dwelling unit, it is a single family residence if it has direct access to a street or thoroughfare and does not share heating facilities, hot water equipment, nor any other essential facility or service with any other dwelling unit."
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2299


03/24/2020 9:14 AM  
Hypothetical or real?
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


03/24/2020 9:50 AM  
Posted By ND on 03/24/2020 6:11 AM
To add to this . . . as others mentioned earlier in your post . . . your position of the property being "for single family residential use only" as to why the person cannot do what they are doing is likely an inaccurate position to be taking.

Single Family Residence is an architectural/legal description meaning that your houses are structures maintained and used as a single dwelling unit.


"Single family residence means a structure maintained and used as a single dwelling unit. Even though a dwelling unit may share one or more walls with another dwelling unit, it is a single family residence if it has direct access to a street or thoroughfare and does not share heating facilities, hot water equipment, nor any other essential facility or service with any other dwelling unit."





Disagree. It refers to use, not solely occupancy.
ND
(PA)

Posts:407


03/24/2020 10:29 AM  
As you wish.

In that case, I definitely suggest telling the car dealer exactly which neighbors and Board Members have complained about what's going on. Make sure to provide addresses, phone numbers, and emails.

Keep us posted on how things go.

NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


03/24/2020 12:38 PM  
Posted By ND on 03/24/2020 10:29 AM
As you wish.

In that case, I definitely suggest telling the car dealer exactly which neighbors and Board Members have complained about what's going on. Make sure to provide addresses, phone numbers, and emails.

Keep us posted on how things go.






People have complained about a vehicle transaction taking place on property and homeowner selling vehicles from property.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:2299


03/24/2020 4:43 PM  
Again ... Hypothetical or real?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9299


03/24/2020 4:49 PM  
Posted By NpB on 03/24/2020 12:38 PM
Posted By ND on 03/24/2020 10:29 AM
As you wish.

In that case, I definitely suggest telling the car dealer exactly which neighbors and Board Members have complained about what's going on. Make sure to provide addresses, phone numbers, and emails.

Keep us posted on how things go.






People have complained about a vehicle transaction taking place on property and homeowner selling vehicles from property.




Then have one of them file a complaint with the BOD and then have the BOD/MC investigate.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


03/24/2020 11:02 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/24/2020 4:49 PM
Posted By NpB on 03/24/2020 12:38 PM
Posted By ND on 03/24/2020 10:29 AM
As you wish.

In that case, I definitely suggest telling the car dealer exactly which neighbors and Board Members have complained about what's going on. Make sure to provide addresses, phone numbers, and emails.

Keep us posted on how things go.






People have complained about a vehicle transaction taking place on property and homeowner selling vehicles from property.




Then have one of them file a complaint with the BOD and then have the BOD/MC investigate.





That was done!
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:188


03/24/2020 11:03 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 03/24/2020 4:43 PM
Again ... Hypothetical or real?





Real!
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Car Dealer Selling Used Cars



Get 1 year of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!

Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.







General Legal Notice:  The content of forum messages are from the posting member and have not been reviewed nor endorsed by HOATalk.com.  Messages posted by HOATalk or other members are for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice and do not constitute an attorney-client relationship.  Readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel.  HOATalk is not a licensed attorney, CPA, tax advisor, financial advisor or any other licensed professional.  HOATalk accepts ads from sponsors but does not verify sponsor qualifications nor endorse/guarantee any sponsor's product or service.
Legal Notice For Messages Posted by Sponsoring Attorneys: This message has been prepared by the sponsoring attorney for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Readers of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send any sponsoring attorney confidential information unless you speak with the sponsoring attorney or an attorney from the sponsoring attorney’s firm and get authorization to send that information to them. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in the firm of the sponsoring attorney. Sponsoring attorneys that post messages here are licensed to practice law in a specific state or states as indicated in their message signature or sponsor’s profile page. (NOTE: A ‘sponsoring attorney’ is an attorney that is a HOATalk.com official sponsor and is identified as such in the posted message or on our sponsor page.)

Copyright HOA Talk.com, A Service of Community123 LLC ( Homeowners Association Discussions )   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement