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JohnK40 (West Virginia)
Posts: 59
Posted:
I was going to 'do a search' but decided to ask.

1500+ own property within a self-managed WV Corporation.

The corporation 'fired', 'let go', 'allowed our General Manager to resign ... whatever ... the General Manager is no longer employed and was socked with a No Trespassing Order.

Do the 1500+ members of the corporation have the right to know what THEY have paid as a penalty to 'break' the GM's employment contract?

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
JohnK40, what does your HOA's governing documents say about records inspections? For starters, you likely have a legal right to review financial records and board meeting minutes as described below. It is possible you have a right to review the contract. But without a lot more information from you, I cannot say for sure.

If you can confirm that your HOA falls under Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act - West Virginia Code § 36B, then you have the following legal rights:

§36B-3-118. Association records.
The association shall keep financial records sufficiently detailed to enable the association to comply with section 4-109. All financial and other records must be made reasonably available for examination by any unit owner and his authorized agents.

See
http://www.wvlegislature.gov/WVCODE/ChapterEntire.cfm?chap=36B&art=3§ion=118#3
and
http://www.wvlegislature.gov/WVCODE/ChapterEntire.cfm?chap=36B&art=4§ion=109#4

The West Virginia Nonprofit Corporation Act likely applies and gives members specific record review rights as given at http://www.wvlegislature.gov/WVCODE/code.cfm?chap=31E&art=15#01
JohnK40 (West Virginia)
Posts: 59
Posted:
I figured as much. Not complaining or throwing stones ... just the truth. The Board does not follow our governing documents. Yes they allow records inspections. How does one pursue the legal right to review financial records? As far as board meeting minutes, they have not been available since August 2019. All contracts (services, construction, employment) are not allowed to be reviewed.
JohnK40 (West Virginia)
Posts: 59
Posted:
* Yes they (our Governing Documents) allow records inspections.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,962
Posted:
Do you ask these questions to your board, and if so, what was the response? Considering there's a no trespassing order against the former manager, something serious had to happen in order to go this route, so how do you know for certain anything was paid to break the contract. In fact, you may be seeing the beginning of some considerable legal action depending on what the manager is suspected of (or found caught) doing.

If I were on the board, I might tell the community the breakup was necessary because of some serious performance issues which are being investigated. Because there could be some legal action as a result, the board cannot discuss the details at this time, but will update you as soon as possible.

If the board has told you something similar, leave this alone for now and let the process play itself out. If the manager has done something that came close to damaging the association, it's possible the association won't have to pay anything.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnK40 on 02/21/2020 9:56 AM
How does one pursue the legal right to review financial records? As far as board meeting minutes, they have not been available since August 2019. All contracts (services, construction, employment) are not allowed to be reviewed.
Write the board/management a letter like the following:

Dear Board and HOA Manager,

Pursuant to the authorities listed below, I request a copy of (1) the monthly income and expense statement that shows the penalty, if any, paid for terminating the contract with the former general manager; (2) the Board Meeting Minutes showing the decision to terminate the latter contract; and (3) any invoice or other documentation showing the payment of the aforementioned penalty. Please respond by March 21.

Thank you for your assistance,

John ____
[address]

=================================================
Authorities for Record Inspections by HOA Members
=================================================
Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act - West Virginia Code Chapter 36B, Section 36B-3-118. Association records.

Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act - West Virginia Code Chapter 36B, Section 36B-4-109. Resales of units.

West Virginia Nonprofit Corporation Act - West Virginia Code Chapter 31E, Sections 31E-15-1501 through 31E-15-1504 inclusive.

West Virginia Nonprofit Corporation Act - West Virginia Code Chapter 31E, Sections 31E-15-1501 through 31E-15-1504 inclusive.

HOA Declaration [Bylaws?] Section _____________

JohnK40 (West Virginia)
Posts: 59
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 02/21/2020 10:15 AM
Do you ask these questions to your board, and if so, what was the response? Considering there's a no trespassing order against the former manager, something serious had to happen in order to go this route, so how do you know for certain anything was paid to break the contract. In fact, you may be seeing the beginning of some considerable legal action depending on what the manager is suspected of (or found caught) doing.

If I were on the board, I might tell the community the breakup was necessary because of some serious performance issues which are being investigated. Because there could be some legal action as a result, the board cannot discuss the details at this time, but will update you as soon as possible.

If the board has told you something similar, leave this alone for now and let the process play itself out. If the manager has done something that came close to damaging the association, it's possible the association won't have to pay anything.

@Sheliah, the Board has said nothing, no announcement on the Official Website. The Office Manager posted via a Facebook account the GM was no longer employed and asked for understanding when conducting business. Does membership have the right to a Board Announcement? If so and none comes, do you have any suggestions?
JohnK40 (West Virginia)
Posts: 59
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/21/2020 10:22 AM
Posted By JohnK40 on 02/21/2020 9:56 AM
How does one pursue the legal right to review financial records? As far as board meeting minutes, they have not been available since August 2019. All contracts (services, construction, employment) are not allowed to be reviewed.
Write the board/management a letter like the following:

Dear Board and HOA Manager,

Pursuant to the authorities listed below, I request a copy of (1) the monthly income and expense statement that shows the penalty, if any, paid for terminating the contract with the former general manager; (2) the Board Meeting Minutes showing the decision to terminate the latter contract; and (3) any invoice or other documentation showing the payment of the aforementioned penalty. Please respond by March 21.

Thank you for your assistance,

John ____
[address]

Many thanks. I will pass the sample along to membership and ask them to use also contact the Board. Considering past history ... I will not be surprised if our requests ar ignored.

=================================================
Authorities for Record Inspections by HOA Members
=================================================
Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act - West Virginia Code Chapter 36B, Section 36B-3-118. Association records.

Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act - West Virginia Code Chapter 36B, Section 36B-4-109. Resales of units.

West Virginia Nonprofit Corporation Act - West Virginia Code Chapter 31E, Sections 31E-15-1501 through 31E-15-1504 inclusive.

West Virginia Nonprofit Corporation Act - West Virginia Code Chapter 31E, Sections 31E-15-1501 through 31E-15-1504 inclusive.

HOA Declaration [Bylaws?] Section _____________


CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnK40 on 02/21/2020 1:09 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 02/21/2020 10:15 AM
Do you ask these questions to your board, and if so, what was the response? Considering there's a no trespassing order against the former manager, something serious had to happen in order to go this route, so how do you know for certain anything was paid to break the contract. In fact, you may be seeing the beginning of some considerable legal action depending on what the manager is suspected of (or found caught) doing.

If I were on the board, I might tell the community the breakup was necessary because of some serious performance issues which are being investigated. Because there could be some legal action as a result, the board cannot discuss the details at this time, but will update you as soon as possible.

If the board has told you something similar, leave this alone for now and let the process play itself out. If the manager has done something that came close to damaging the association, it's possible the association won't have to pay anything.


@Sheliah, the Board has said nothing, no announcement on the Official Website. The Office Manager posted via a Facebook account the GM was no longer employed and asked for understanding when conducting business. Does membership have the right to a Board Announcement? If so and none comes, do you have any suggestions?

If there is legal action ongoing, it's very likely the board can't say anything. I agree that a no-trespassing order suggests something serious has happened and the PM has been terminated for cause and there would be no charge to the association for early termination.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Still, the monthly financials that do seem to be available to owners will show the penalty if any was paid. Look under the heading Cash Disbursements. Write to the Assocation's agent and request the financials for the month that you think might be relevant.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I don't see why this should not be known. It's for safety and financial hit. However, I would say it is the price of doing business. It is built into the contract is it not that early termination results in a fee? So it's not like that is "hidden".

As for the trespassing, the more eyes the better. How will these people know this person is trespassing if it's not known? The person can come back anytime and meet people who don't know the situation. Seems you would want to post something that says "If you see this person call the police".

Former HOA President
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
John,

Are you on the Board?

Have you spoken to Board members about this?

Has it been discussed at Board meetings?
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Hi John,

Dues payers would have a right to know the operational costs of the HOA, including penalties paid to break a contract. You are part of the association...not just "subject to" the homeowners' association.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
John K

You are making accusations and suppositions without ask. Ask.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnK40 on 02/21/2020 1:12 PM
I will pass the sample along to membership and ask them to use also contact the Board. Considering past history ... I will not be surprised if our requests ar ignored.
I understand. Nonetheless, the law expects this first step. Once the board ignores this first request, post back.

Do you know if this RV park is governed by West Virginia's Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act? Does either its Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws, or Declaration say as much?
JohnK40 (West Virginia)
Posts: 59
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/23/2020 5:48 AM
Posted By JohnK40 on 02/21/2020 1:12 PM
I will pass the sample along to membership and ask them to use also contact the Board. Considering past history ... I will not be surprised if our requests are ignored.
I understand. Nonetheless, the law expects this first step. Once the board ignores this first request, post back.

Do you know if this RV park is governed by West Virginia's Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act? Does either its Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws, or Declaration say as much?

Let me go to the membership now and ask ... if our Park is governed by West Virginia's Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act?

Also now going to knowledgeable members and asking ... if either our Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws or Declaration mention West Virginia's Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act.

@AugustinD, many thanks you are replying.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
I think knowing the following may be helpful to others: The OP's organization has hundreds of lots for members to buy and on which they can live for part of the year; several swimming pools; a liquor yada bar and lounge with live entertainment; a pool table room; a rec room; a convenience store; a laundromat; a miniature golf course; bathhouses; tennis and basketball courts; a ball field; a meeting hall where religious services (without citing any particular religion) are conducted every Sunday; and more. It appears to have about a dozen staff who I gather are contracted or employed. It is a West Virginia nonprofit corporation with covenants. I can see how the sudden termination of a general manager can throw a loop to many of the members. I think it is entirely possible that there was a sizable penalty for terminating early. On the other hand, if some kind of malfeasance was involved and the general manager resigned, this would put an entirely different light on things. Of legal necessity (and whether members agree with the termination or not), the board may be obliged to stay silent on the details. Still, as others have indicated, and pursuant to at least WV corporate law, the OP should be entitled to see the financial records that show whether a penalty was paid.
JohnK40 (West Virginia)
Posts: 59
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/23/2020 8:07 AM
I think knowing the following may be helpful to others: The OP's organization has hundreds of lots for members to buy and on which they can live for part of the year; several swimming pools; a liquor yada bar and lounge with live entertainment; a pool table room; a rec room; a convenience store; a laundromat; a miniature golf course; bathhouses; tennis and basketball courts; a ball field; a meeting hall where religious services (without citing any particular religion) are conducted every Sunday; and more. It appears to have about a dozen staff who I gather are contracted or employed. It is a West Virginia nonprofit corporation with covenants. I can see how the sudden termination of a general manager can throw a loop to many of the members. I think it is entirely possible that there was a sizable penalty for terminating early. On the other hand, if some kind of malfeasance was involved and the general manager resigned, this would put an entirely different light on things. Of legal necessity (and whether members agree with the termination or not), the board may be obliged to stay silent on the details. Still, as others have indicated, and pursuant to at least WV corporate law, the OP should be entitled to see the financial records that show whether a penalty was paid.

@AugustinD asking you to stay with me for a few weeks. Your insight is ... frankly, in my personal opinion ... our last chance effort. Elsewhere it was insinuated I was a deplorable and that is for each to make up his/her mind. I will admit after 7 years it is difficult for me to step back and think things through and like it or not that is where you and this forum steps in.

Your description is accurate.

@Forum to include @AugustinD it will cloud the issue to try and explain how my membership has ended up where we are. The 'issue' is the FAIR upcoming election of Directors by members in good standing. Complicating the issue ... the past two elections have not been fair.

Still waiting on knowledgeable member input regarding .. if our Park is governed by West Virginia's Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act and ... if either our Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws or Declaration mention West Virginia's Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act. Are there any .gov sites I could search to possibly seek "if we are" and if we are not ... why not?

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
JohnK40, based on the following, I think your organization is subject to:
-- West Virginia Nonprofit Corporation Act - West Virginia Code § 31E

-- Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act - West Virginia Code § 36B. See https://www.ncsl.org/documents/environ/WVcondo.pdf and double check the latter as needed with https://www.wvlegislature.gov/WVCODE/Code.cfm?chap=36b&art=1

-- and maybe the Unit Property Act - West Virginia Code § 36A (seems to be mostly or entirely about condos?)

Regarding applicability of 36B, excerpts that leap out at me are:

§36B-1-102. Applicability.
Applicability of this chapter is governed by Part II [36B-2?] of this article. 

§36B-2-101. Creation of common interest communities.
(a) A common interest community may be created pursuant to this chapter only by recording a declaration executed in the same manner as a deed and, in a cooperative, by conveying the real estate subject to that declaration to the association. The declaration must be recorded in every county in which any portion of the common interest community is located and must be indexed in the grantee's index in the name of the common interest community and the association and in the grantor's index in the name of each person executing the declaration. 

The WV Secretary of State office lists your organization as a corporation. Go to https://apps.wv.gov/SOS/BusinessEntitySearch/ . Put in the first two words of your organization's title, and it comes up. Google on the organization's name, and the indications are that it is a nonprofit. You can probably call the Secretary of State and ask how to get a copy of the Articles of Incorporation. Sometimes S.o.S. offices will email the Articles, charging a small fee.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Correction: Only if the OP's organization has a Declaration recorded as described above do I believe the organization is subject to West Virginia statute 36B. John, if you have a copy of the original declaration, often (always?) there will be a stamp on it indicating whether it was recorded with the county(ies).
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
JohnK40, "Declaration" is often the abbreviated form of "Declaration of Covenants, Restrictions... " and similar. Do you have any document titled "covenants" or similar that is filed with the County?
JohnK40 (West Virginia)
Posts: 59
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/23/2020 9:31 AM
Correction: Only if the OP's organization has a Declaration recorded as described above do I believe the organization is subject to West Virginia statute 36B. John, if you have a copy of the original declaration, often (always?) there will be a stamp on it indicating whether it was recorded with the county(ies).

Working it with membership.

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