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CherylH12 (South Carolina)
Posts: 2
Posted:
DHEC regulations apparently changed in 2014 to require more lighting than our community has. Previous boards either “didn’t know” or ignored it and the pool was open until 9pm. Now DHEC says our pool must close at sunset but one board member wants us to “ignore it” and keep it open. Can we be held personally liable if someone gets injured after dark?
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Cheryl,

Can you link to the portion of SCDHEC that says this?
BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178
Posted:
If, by "personally" you mean individual board members, I suspect your indemnification policy might prevent that but you should run that by your insurance agent. Whether the pool is open or not, a death in in it will likely leave the association as a whole liable. Not only am I not a lawyer, I also do not play one on TV.
Keeping the pool open when illegal to do so is more likely to result in the loss of your permit to operate the pool.
SamE2 (New Jersey)
Posts: 310
Posted:
I'm surprised the lighting rule was not grandfathered for pools built before it took place. Is there a way to add the required lighting? However, your question is, if the Board ignores a law and if someone get hurt because the Board choose to ignore the rule, can the board be held personally liable. The answer has to be yes. The board members did not make a mistake they made a willful decision to ignore the code. It is one thing to not know what the code requires quite another to not care what the code requires.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
At a board meeting make a motion to amend the agenda to discuss ignoring the law about closing the pool at dusk, at the onset of the meeting.

See who wants to violate the law now that its in the minutes.... with their names attached.

Yes, pool lights are a serious issue. That is why there are laws.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,050
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CherylH12 on 02/21/2020 6:51 AM

Can we be held personally liable if someone gets injured after dark?

The Association can be held liable if someone is injured, regardless of the time of day/night.

If the Board knowingly violates statutes and doesn't have the proper safety gear, lighting or has the pool open longer then it should, it's likely that if someone is injured, the insurance company won't cover and the Association (i.e. the membership) will have to pony up for the legal defense and any judgements or settlement. Translation - special assessments, possible receivership, potential bankruptcy.

If this happens, a member or two might attempt to pierce the corporate shield and go after you individually.

If you want to minimize such actions, comply with statutes/regs/etc.

If you want a true legal opinion, pony up and ask an attorney what the risk would be.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SamE2 on 02/21/2020 7:13 AM
I'm surprised the lighting rule was not grandfathered for pools built before it took place.

Safety items cannot be grandfathered. Doesnt work like that.

FYI: Insurance would send the HOA a termination notice if they found out.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,050
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 02/21/2020 7:19 AM

Safety items cannot be grandfathered. Doesnt work like that.

Sure they can.

Look at safety features in cars, building codes, etc.

In this case, the State/County addressed it by requiring the facility to be closed at dusk vs. requiring everyone to get lighting.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Does anyone know what DHEC rule says?
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Since most people here aren't attorneys, you're better off asking your association attorney or master insurance carrier. The answer could depend on how the person was injured (suppose it was someone who doesn't live in the community and broke a lock to get to the pool?)

As a practical matter, if the law states the pool must close at sunset, then close it. It's also highly inappropriate that any board member would suggest "ignoring" that law or any other statute. I hope someone called him or her out on that idiot way of thinking. That behavior is why a lot of HOA boards get into trouble.....

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CherylH12 on 02/21/2020 6:51 AM
DHEC regulations apparently changed in 2014 to require more lighting than our community has. Previous boards either “didn’t know” or ignored it and the pool was open until 9pm. Now DHEC says our pool must close at sunset but one board member wants us to “ignore it” and keep it open. Can we be held personally liable if someone gets injured after dark?

Follow the law. Close the pool at dusk during the summer as it's a community pool and not personal property. There's nothing to discuss if you're part of an ethical board of directors.
CherylH12 (South Carolina)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Regualtion 61-51. Section C. Item 31.
31. Electrical and Illumination Requirements. Artificial lighting must be provided at all public swimming pools which are to be used at night or which do not have adequate natural lighting so that all portions of the pool, including the bottom, may be readily seen without glare.
(a) Underwater Lighting. Where underwater lighting is used, not less than 0.5 watts of incandescent lighting or 8.35 lumens must be provided per square foot of pool area. An adequate number of lights must be used and properly positioned so that all portions of the pool are clearly visible to an observer on the pool deck. Fiberoptic lighting may only be installed as a supplement to the minimum lighting requirements outlined above. Colored lights that do not provide for an equivalent light output to the wattage or lumens noted above for clear lights cannot be used.
(b) Area Lighting. Where underwater lighting is used, uniform area lighting must be provided for the deck area and directed toward the deck area and away from the pool surface insofar as practical. Illumination of the pool deck surface must be at least ten (10) foot candles of intensity, or not less than 0.6 watts of incandescent light or 10 lumens per square foot. Where underwater lighting is not used and night swimming is permitted, uniform area lighting must be provided in an amount of not less than thirty-two (32) foot candles of intensity, or not less than two 2 watts of incandescent light or 33.5 lumens per square foot of pool area in addition to 0.6 watts of incandescent light or ten (10) foot candles of intensity per square foot of deck area. These lights must be placed around the pool area such that all sections and depths of the pool are clearly visible at all times. Light fixtures located within the pool area must be protected by a non-breakable lens.
(c) Overhead Conductors, Wiring and Lights.
(i) Overhead conductors and wiring not in conduit must not pass within an area extending a distance of twenty (20) feet horizontally away from the inside edge of the pool walls, diving structures, observation stands, towers, or platforms. No pool can be constructed under an existing utility owned supply conductor in accordance with the current edition of the National Electrical Safety Code.
(ii) There shall be no light fixtures or conductor splices directly above the water surface at any outdoor pool. Indoor pools must comply with the same restriction except that light fixtures protected by a non-breakable lens are allowed.
(d) Wiring and grounding for lights and all electrical power for swimming pool equipment must conform to the codes of the current edition of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) National Electric Code. All electrical circuits within the pool area including all accessory equipment, electric drinking water fountains, and bathhouse/minimum toilet facility receptacles are required to meet the current edition of the NFPA National Electric Code; provided, however, all such circuits shall have ground fault protection regardless of their proximity to the pool. Exceptions may be granted for lighting and fixtures that are twenty-five (25) feet or more above the pool deck and would not pose a risk of electrocution. Junction boxes must be above the pool water level and must not be a trip hazard.

If your facility would like to become permitted for night swimming the Department would require the submission of a change order request form (attached) and an area lighting plan showing the lights on site and the illumination provided by them so that we may review it for compliance with the above portion of the regulations. Once approved and the lights are installed the permit will be amended to show that night swimming is permitted and as long as the lights are on the pool may remain open at night. If you have any further questions or concerns please feel free to contact me by phone at 803-898-4255 or by email at [email protected].
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobB31 on 02/21/2020 7:04 AM
If, by "personally" you mean individual board members, I suspect your indemnification policy might prevent that but you should run that by your insurance agent. Whether the pool is open or not, a death in in it will likely leave the association as a whole liable. Not only am I not a lawyer, I also do not play one on TV.
Keeping the pool open when illegal to do so is more likely to result in the loss of your permit to operate the pool.

Most indemnification clauses that I've seen specifically state that they do not apply if a board member is guilty of deliberate misconduct. Indemnity is generally limited to good faith differences of opinion (ie, "business judgement") or good faith mistakes. My community's bylaws also cite negligence as a reason to deny insurance coverage.

Those board members are begging for trouble if they ignore laws.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CherylH12 on 02/21/2020 8:28 AM
Regu[la]tion 61-51. Section C. Item 31.
[snip for brevity]
If your facility would like to become permitted for night swimming the Department would require the submission of a change order request form (attached) and an area lighting plan showing the lights on site and the illumination provided by them so that we may review it for compliance with the above portion of the regulations. Once approved and the lights are installed the permit will be amended to show that night swimming is permitted and as long as the lights are on the pool may remain open at night. If you have any further questions or concerns please feel free to contact me by phone at 803-898-4255 or by email at [email protected].


I am looking at https://www.scdhec.gov/sites/default/files/media/document/R.61-51.pdf. It appears to reflect the status of the regs as of 2014. Regulation 61-51 Section C. 1. Applicability states:

"C. GENERAL CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL PUBLIC SWIMMING POOLS
1. Applicability. Requirements of this section are applicable to all new construction and alterations of existing public swimming pools. All work must be performed in accordance with good engineering practice and recognized industry standards."

First, if one looks at the definition of "public swimming pools" in the document I linked above, it looks like his HOA/COA's pool falls under the definition of a "public swimming pool." Second, is this a new construction pool? It sounds like it is not. Have alterations been done? "Alteration" is also defined in the above document.

CherylH12, if you think the reg is not applicable to your HOA/COA's pool, call or email the division and ask, politely citing the "applicability" section.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
How many are on your board, Cheryl? What's their opinion on this topic? Why does the one director's opinion to ignore the law matter? S/he has one vote.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I may have missed a response - does anyone know what DHEC rule says?

Everyone is commenting based on the initial post?
CarolF (Florida)
Posts: 435
Posted:
Tim - I usually always agree with you. But, I do not agree with your statement about safety items and grandfathering. In the case of our pool, we were required to have a new ladder installed when we resurfaced it. The resurfacing required a county permit, and the inspector said we needed a new ladder that met the current county code. As I recall. the ladder price was something just shy of $2000. The pool within our HOA is considered "public" even though it is not. It must meet current code requirements.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Those board members are begging for trouble if they ignore laws.

Yep, people like that need to be replaced.
BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CarolF on 02/21/2020 4:21 PM
Tim - I usually always agree with you. But, I do not agree with your statement about safety items and grandfathering. In the case of our pool, we were required to have a new ladder installed when we resurfaced it. The resurfacing required a county permit, and the inspector said we needed a new ladder that met the current county code. As I recall. the ladder price was something just shy of $2000. The pool within our HOA is considered "public" even though it is not. It must meet current code requirements.

Before you did the resurfacing, the old ladder was grandfathered. When you performed the alteration, you were required to bring it to code.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Does the pool itself have lights underwater? Ask a DHEC to send an inspector for guidance. Our pool has underwater lights, three lights on the soffit of the building facing the pool and a light above each bathroom door.
I would ask your governing inspector for guidance.. If you have to install pole lighting around the deck, solar lights are relatively inexpensive and less invasive of digging and trenching electric wires.
BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 02/21/2020 11:11 AM
I may have missed a response - does anyone know what DHEC rule says?

Everyone is commenting based on the initial post?

It was posted, about an hour before you posted this

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