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Subject: Gate Keys
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MuranoiH
(Florida)

Posts:1


01/09/2020 7:42 AM  
I have a question, the board members are requesting the gate cards that have access to the pool and gym, that residents pictures and home address are added in the gate cards...is that legal how can we prevent from that happening?
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3516


01/09/2020 7:50 AM  
Doesn't sound unreasonable.

I've worked at places before with access cards and my photo shows up on the security guards desk along with the security camera image. If they didn't match, I'm sure it would be deactivated.

They might be doing something similar to stop people from letting others borrow cards.

Since each card has an unique number and those cards need to be activated or deactivated regularly, how would do it differently if a resident moved out or sold their cards?
AugustinD


Posts:2411


01/09/2020 7:55 AM  
Posted By MuranoiH on 01/09/2020 7:42 AM
I have a question, the board members are requesting the gate cards that have access to the pool and gym, that residents pictures and home address are added in the gate cards...is that legal how can we prevent from that happening?
Is the board requesting or requiring?

This 2013 site indicates Florida has a new statute that could pose problems if this is a requirement:

https://www.jimersonfirm.com/blog/2013/08/new-florida-law-affects-hoas-and-condo-associations-abilities-to-swipe-drivers-licenses-at-community-entrances/
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2882


01/09/2020 9:33 AM  
Thanks for posting the link AugustinD!

From reading the first part of the article (which I think MuranoiH should also do), I understand the intent behind requesting this information, but I can also see privacy issues if the card is lost or stolen (and then an unauthorized person uses it to get into the pool and gym).

As the article also noted, this statute is relatively new, but based on how it's written, appears the association can't compel a homeowner to provide this information, so if you don't want to provide it, they can't make you do it.

That said, why not ask the board why they want this information. If enhanced security is an issue, print off a copy of the article and show it to them, and then ask how they plan to protect the information from unauthorized use if the card is ever lost or stolen. That could prompt the board to do more research before adopting this policy - and if they do, they will have to ask for resident content and keep copies of the same.

Personally, I would think it would be easier to link the card to an account number - even if someone learns what that is, it's meaningless without the accountholder's name and address. You can still use it to track if someone (or several people) used the card to access those places and if there was a problem, the homeowner would have to explain how someone got hold of the card if he/she hadn't first reported it stolen or missing
BobB31
(Florida)

Posts:151


01/09/2020 10:57 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 01/09/2020 7:55 AM
Posted By MuranoiH on 01/09/2020 7:42 AM
I have a question, the board members are requesting the gate cards that have access to the pool and gym, that residents pictures and home address are added in the gate cards...is that legal how can we prevent from that happening?
Is the board requesting or requiring?

This 2013 site indicates Florida has a new statute that could pose problems if this is a requirement:

https://www.jimersonfirm.com/blog/2013/08/new-florida-law-affects-hoas-and-condo-associations-abilities-to-swipe-drivers-licenses-at-community-entrances/



I don't get it. The statute restricts who can swipe state-issued drivers licenses. And even that restriction can be gotten around:

Florida’s associations, therefore, have no statutory right to swipe a driver’s license, but an association can do so if the individual consents. Fla. Stat. 322.143(6)(a). To give valid consent, “the individual must be informed what information is collected and the purpose or purposes for which it will be used.”

It seems irrelevant to this question. There is nothing to prevent an association from including extra information on its own privately-issued id card.
AugustinD


Posts:2411


01/09/2020 11:25 AM  
Bob, the article specifically refers to "driver's license or identification card." The statute is linked at the article: http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2013/7125/Amendment/370784/HTML. The statute begins as follows:
"322.143 Use of a driver license or identification card.—
9 (1) As used in this section, the term:
10 (a) “Personal information” means an individual’s name,
11 address, date of birth, driver license number, or identification
12 card number."

What is your question?
MarkM19
(Texas)

Posts:506


01/09/2020 12:30 PM  
I guess I have to wonder why anyone who uses his Key Fob or other card to access Amenities would have a problem assuring the HOA that only people that belong in the area are allowed. Homeowners pay to keep up and maintain the equipment with their dues. If outside people are using FObs illegally it is not to anyone other than the person using its benefit.

Systems need to be kept current and old access needs to be removed when people sell or move out of the community.
The PMC that we just replaced had been selling Key Fobs to access our Pool for 7 years. I asked them how many active Fobs were in the system currently. They told me 2000+ and I asked if they had a procedure for deactivating Fobs when someone moves out or Sells. They said no so this means if someone buys a new home in a different subdivision that may or may not have a Pool or Amenities they can just come to ours. CRAZY right. I have also seen in my years in a Ca. HOA where homeowners were actually selling FObs online to people that wanted to use our Pool. It was much cheaper than joining a club. This causes many problems but here is just a few.

1) People that are not paying Dues could care less about your stuff.
2) They are much more likely to not follow Rules that they do not know about.
3) If they get hurt who are they going to going to file a suit against.
4) Crowded Pools make owners upset.
5) When a bad crowd arrives and get rowdy they families usually take the kids home. Mobs have the place to themselves.

When in a Public place you give up your right to privacy.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2882


01/09/2020 1:39 PM  
Mark's list of problems remind me (for the 1000th time) why we finally got rid of our pool -and it's not missed! That's probably why HOAs started doing this, but sometimes there are unintended consequences - thus the statute.

The OP might be worried about privacy (and that's a legitimate concern), but I hope he considers if his community is having those problems, and if so, come up with some suggestions on addressing them as well.

BobB31
(Florida)

Posts:151


01/09/2020 1:52 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 01/09/2020 11:25 AM
Bob, the article specifically refers to "driver's license or identification card." The statute is linked at the article: http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2013/7125/Amendment/370784/HTML. The statute begins as follows:
"322.143 Use of a driver license or identification card.—
9 (1) As used in this section, the term:
10 (a) “Personal information” means an individual’s name,
11 address, date of birth, driver license number, or identification
12 card number."

What is your question?



I still think the article and statute are talking about a state-issued id card (a non-driver can get a state-issued id), not a privately-issued card.
AugustinD


Posts:2411


01/09/2020 4:05 PM  
Posted By BobB31 on 01/09/2020 1:52 PM
I still think the article and statute are talking about a state-issued id card (a non-driver can get a state-issued id), not a privately-issued card.
Upon further reading, I see your point. I think this may have at least been the intent of the statute. Unfortunately in the definitions section of the statute there is no definition of "identification card." By contrast, the statute at 322.01 does define "driver license." Still, I agree it might be a stretch (or even foolish) to quarrel with one's HOA, using the statute at 322.143, for coming up with a HOA id card of the HOA's own making.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3495


01/09/2020 8:18 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 01/09/2020 11:25 AM
Bob, the article specifically refers to "driver's license or identification card." The statute is linked at the article: http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2013/7125/Amendment/370784/HTML. The statute begins as follows:
"322.143 Use of a driver license or identification card.—
9 (1) As used in this section, the term:
10 (a) “Personal information” means an individual’s name,
11 address, date of birth, driver license number, or identification
12 card number."

With all due respect, that's not the statute. That's an excerpt from Senate Bill 7125 that was proposed in 2013. The entire history of the bill during that legislative session is here. It was eventually passed and signed into law by the Governor after merging it with the House version and amedments were made. The quoted text, however, remains accurate.

The governing statute is currently Chapter 322 (Driver Licenses)" of the Florida Statutes.

Definitions regarding state-issued Identification Cards are found in Chapter 322.01(45) which defines them as a "personal identification card issued by the department which conforms to the definition in 18 U.S.C. s. 1028(d)."

That's a state-issued ID card. Privately-issued ID cards are a completely different animal and while FS 322.051 goes into detail about state-issued cards, I'm not sure where (or even if) private ID cards are mentioned in the statutes.

SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3516


01/10/2020 6:16 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 01/09/2020 1:39 PM
Mark's list of problems remind me (for the 1000th time) why we finally got rid of our pool -and it's not missed!


Yep, pools take an enormous amount of resources. Insurance, maintenance, upkeep, refurbishing, people that cannot behave, glass in pool, the list goes on and on. Congrats on getting rid of your pool.
AugustinD


Posts:2411


01/10/2020 8:22 AM  
Geno, If the bill differed from the final law, I would have noted it. If you object to the way I use the word "statute," take it up with dictionary.com and the like. Else thank you for correcting my mistake re "identification card."
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3495


01/10/2020 3:27 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 01/10/2020 8:22 AM
Geno, If the bill differed from the final law, I would have noted it. If you object to the way I use the word "statute," take it up with dictionary.com and the like. Else thank you for correcting my mistake re "identification card."

You posted a link to something that was not "the statute" but claimed that it was. I do take issue with that. Since the language is the same it's a "no harm, no foul" mistake, sure, but finding and linking to the actual statute shouldn't have been that hard.
AugustinD


Posts:2411


01/10/2020 4:09 PM  
Geno, I wanted to be consistent with the article, which linked the bill. The article pointed out the bill had been passed into law.
KellyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:1452


01/12/2020 7:13 AM  
Posted By MuranoiH on 01/09/2020 7:42 AM
I have a question, the board members are requesting the gate cards that have access to the pool and gym, that residents pictures and home address are added in the gate cards...is that legal how can we prevent from that happening?




Yes, your board may approve a policy that creates photo I-D for access to its amenities. It has no correlation to government-issued identification. In practice, a digital gate access is logged into a database so I can't really see the point of photo ID on a pool access card. You'd have to print the entire family's photo(s) to properly conduct spot checks of IDs. But I digress....
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