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Subject: HOA Liability for Potentially Unsafe Conditions
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Author Messages
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/27/2020 7:54 AM  
Posted By NpB on 10/27/2020 12:40 AM
I was unaware that a claim of discrimination needs to be tied to the Fair Housing Act. If the streetlight were removed, I would feel targeted and discriminated against, but I assume that I would have to be a member of a protected class to claim discrimination.
Correct. Specifically you would have to show that the Board/association took whatever action to which you are objecting because of either your race, color, religion, sex, familial status, or national origin.

Boards take xyz actions that an owner/tenant thinks is harmful all the time. Many Owners/tenants then file a Fair Housing Act (FHA) complaint that the Board took this action on account of the owner's/tenant's race, color, religion, sex, familial status, or national origin. But HUD's low-level, non-attorney intake staff are trained to look for concrete proof of a correlation between (1) the Board's action and (2) the owner's/tenant's being a member of one of the aforementioned protected classes. This correlation is everything. If it's not crystal clear the Board took the action "on account" of a person's belonging to a protected class, then the intake staff for the most part chuck the complaint (following the necessary bureaucratic steps to do so). If the Board's action is relatively puny or is a non-recurring action, HUD's low-level intake staff are not going to give the complaint any credibility and will send back a snarky, somewhat legally inaccurate letter rejecting the complaint.
Posted By NpB on 10/27/2020 12:40 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with Fair Housing since I wasn't denied the opportunity to purchase a house.
When it comes to home owners and the FHA, violations of the FHA also may occur on account of what is called "hostile environment" on the basis of membership in a protected class. The Department of Housing and Urban Development advertises like crazy how hostile environment discrimination (against someone who is a member of a protected class) is a violation of the FHA. But the truth is, from what I have read, they enforce this aspect of the FHA poorly. The Department (HUD) should explain in more detail what it expects for a hostile environment claim and save us all a lot of wasted tax dollars from people filing complaints that HUD is just going to reject or, frankly, use to justify its budget.

Anytime HUD rejects a complaint, the complainant has the option to pursue the alleged violation in state or U. S. district court. Some attorneys advise skipping HUD altogether.

On the other hand, when the discrimination (under the FHA) is perfectly clear, HUD comes down with a fury on the offender. I have seen this and am actually watching a complaint right now that I wager will be successful. If I had to bet, I believe it will likely devastate a certain HOA where the Board is stupid, vindictive, ego-driven and inclined to dig in (once again) to an untenable position with HUD. I will post more when the dust settles.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/27/2020 7:55 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/27/2020 7:54 AM
Specifically you would have to show that the Board/association took whatever action to which you are objecting because of either your race, color, religion, sex, familial status, or national origin.
Oops. Add "disability" to the list.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/27/2020 8:10 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/27/2020 7:55 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 10/27/2020 7:54 AM
Specifically you would have to show that the Board/association took whatever action to which you are objecting because of either your race, color, religion, sex, familial status, or national origin.
Oops. Add "disability" to the list.
"Retaliation" for a person's filing a complaint of FHA discrimination is a whole other category of FHA complaints that are often successful. For example, in New York City around 2013, an apartment complex charged a tenant its attorney's fees for dealing with the tenant's FHA complaint. The tenant was disabled and had a service dog of some kind. The apartment complex said no. The tenant had all his ducks in order and filed an FHA complaint. The apartment complex said that the terms of the lease allowed the apartment complex to bill the tenant for the complex's attorney fees in addressing the FHA complaint. I believe the bill for the attorney's fees was on the order of $30,000. A low level (relatively) tenants' court in New York even agreed, for the short term, with the apartment complex that the complex had the right, under the terms of the lease, to bill the tenant for the complex's attorney fees. The tenant filed a second FHA complaint, this time for retaliation. Specifically, Section 818 of the FHA says no one may 'interfere, intimidate, coerce or threaten' someone on account of the someone having made an FHA complaint. The courts call any such 'interference, intimidation, coercion or threat' retaliation that is unlawful under the FHA. Retaliation FHA claims tend to be more successful than the original FHA claim a person may have filed. The apartment complex and HUD settled within about 1.5 years, with the apartment complex for one first, removing the assessment of $30,00 against the tenant and second, actually agreeing to pay the tenant some $30,000. In other words, the tenant went from owing $30,000 to actually being about $30,000 richer. A $60,000 change in his financial condition.

Such is the nature of HUD Conciliation Agreements' financial awards. Making justice happen now and then is a lot of work, but it does happen.

I am noting this so others know they have recourse if they are retaliated against for an initial FHA complaint, // even // where HUD rejects the initial FHA complaint. The message for HOAs/Condos: Don't even think of trying to get even against someone who filed an FHA complaint. (The message for unscrupulous law firms: Sure, help your HOA/Condo client's board dig into an untenable position against a well-armed HUD attorney. The law firm will make a fortune.)

NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/27/2020 4:32 PM  
Augustin: Thank you for your comprehensive explanation. If I can't claim to be a member of a protected class, then basically, the streetlight can be erected/removed every few years based on who gets on the Board, correct?

The contract with the monopoly electric company states "It is further understood and agreed that this Agreement shall be for a minimum term of 10 years from the date of initial delivery of service."

So if my neighbor were to get his people on the Board soon and the new Board terminates the contract if it's permitted , (which would cost much $$ based on the remaining time of the contract plus removal costs), could a lawsuit be made for violating the business judgement rule? If my neighbor and I are both going to live in the same HOA "forever" it could get silly with erecting/removing the streetlight.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/27/2020 4:48 PM  
Posted By NpB on 10/27/2020 4:32 PM
Augustin: Thank you for your comprehensive explanation. If I can't claim to be a member of a protected class,
This FHA protected class stuff is n/a for this situation. Don't even bring it up.
Posted By NpB on 10/27/2020 4:32 PM
then basically, the streetlight can be erected/removed every few years based on who gets on the Board, correct?
Are streetlights listed as common elements in the governing docs?
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/27/2020 4:53 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/27/2020 4:48 PM
Posted By NpB on 10/27/2020 4:32 PM
Augustin: Thank you for your comprehensive explanation. If I can't claim to be a member of a protected class,
This FHA protected class stuff is n/a for this situation. Don't even bring it up.
Posted By NpB on 10/27/2020 4:32 PM
then basically, the streetlight can be erected/removed every few years based on who gets on the Board, correct?
Are streetlights listed as common elements in the governing docs?





The streetlights are on common HOA property. The HOA pays for the installation, lighting contract, etc. The CC&rs do not itemize each item in the common area.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/27/2020 7:00 PM  
Oh well.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/27/2020 7:23 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/27/2020 7:00 PM
Oh well.




Does that change the situation?
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/27/2020 7:31 PM  
No real-life context, no interest.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/27/2020 7:55 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/27/2020 7:31 PM
No real-life context, no interest.





This is a real life situation, but if you aren't interested, that's fine. I think this real life situation provides a good case study regarding the business judgement rule.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


10/27/2020 8:01 PM  
Nah - more ankle biting what if’s.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/27/2020 10:03 PM  
Above post is why we need more forum moderation.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/27/2020 11:07 PM  
State what the actual issue before your Board is right now; whether you are on the Board; what your position on this issue is and why; and you might get more serious responses. Else I cannot blame anyone for thinking this situation you posted is largely or entirely fiction.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:667


10/28/2020 9:04 AM  
It isn't fiction. he's been posting about this street light and the 'assault' and the email wars and etc. on another forum for over a year.

He's not making it up, he's obsessed with the street light staying up, the 'vocal minority' getting in power and taking it down, and what his remedies could be if that happens.

The only part that doesn't make sense to me is that before the homeowner that 'assaulted' him (grabbed him by the shirt) said the light shined in his bedroom or a room, and now that detail changed and it's a mystery why this group hates the light.

AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/28/2020 10:02 AM  
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/28/2020 9:04 AM
It isn't fiction.
Respectfully, I cannot tell. NpB keeps going down multiple paths with this scenario. He or she gives no signs that the topic is even under discussion at board meetings. I think going down all these what-if paths is not an efficient use of the forum's time. One takes these matters one step at a time. I do wonder if NpB just wants attention. I know this is harsh. But his/her communication style here on the topics he/she raises is a bit strange to me.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:667


10/28/2020 10:10 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/28/2020 10:02 AM
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/28/2020 9:04 AM
It isn't fiction.
Respectfully, I cannot tell. NpB keeps going down multiple paths with this scenario. He or she gives no signs that the topic is even under discussion at board meetings. I think going down all these what-if paths is not an efficient use of the forum's time. One takes these matters one step at a time. I do wonder if NpB just wants attention. I know this is harsh. But his/her communication style here on the topics he/she raises is a bit strange to me.



I understand. I am saying i believe the streetlight issue is real, that is all.

The what if's are OP's obsession with the light wondering what his next steps will be if a new board overturns the decision that he finally got in his favor after 15 years.

I believe that OP should speak to a qualified attorney about this matter since it's so important to him.

I believe the qualified attorney would tell him things he doesn't want to hear, but from that source potentially believed.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/28/2020 10:12 AM  
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/28/2020 9:04 AM
It isn't fiction. he's been posting about this street light and the 'assault' and the email wars and etc. on another forum for over a year.

He's not making it up, he's obsessed with the street light staying up, the 'vocal minority' getting in power and taking it down, and what his remedies could be if that happens.

The only part that doesn't make sense to me is that before the homeowner that 'assaulted' him (grabbed him by the shirt) said the light shined in his bedroom or a room, and now that detail changed and it's a mystery why this group hates the light.






Correct. This is a real, non-fiction situation. Here is a brief synopsis. I have been advocating for a streetlight for many years because my street is dark and the only one without a streetlight. When I initially brought the issue up at Board meeting almost two decades ago, the "King" who lives next door objects and the Board at that same reveres the "King" on a personal basis. Several years later, I get elected to the Board and raise the issue, but still no interest, because the "King" still has his advocates on the Board. The Architectural Committee not controlled by the "King" and some of whom live on other streets unanimously recommends the installation of a streetlight in documented Architectural Committee meeting minutes. Their recommendation goes nowhere because the Board majority still has allegiance to the "King." Fast forward a few years when a community wide survey is taken on landscaping issues, about 67% of respondents want more lighting in the community and an equal number respond that if any streetlights were removed, the community would become too dark. In 2019, new Board members who don't know and/or who don't have allegiance to the "King" are elected and I raise the issue again, the Board votes unanimously 5-0 to install the streetlight. Upon learning about the streetlight installation, The "King" gets mad and starts yelling at me and another Board member in my driveway about how one of us is going to have to move, how he might as well put up his house for sale (which he hasn't) how unhappy he is, etc.. Nothing physical by the "King", just a long, loud, angry temper tantrum. The day of the streetlight installation, a different neighbor, the "Grab my shirt guy" comes out during the installation process, starts out calm and then loses his cool during his rant while me and another Board member are physically like statues listening and then grabs my shirt. I receive praise and thanks from at least 3 people on my street who are very appreciative of the light and think it's been needed for many years.

The "King" who once told me that "Winning is everything" when discussing sports, is distraught over this and even several weeks later shakes his head at the light when he walks by it. Haven't conversed with the "King" in and obviously not the "Grab my shirt guy" for about a year. There are Board elections coming up and I think the "King" still hasn't psychologically gotten over being defeated in his mind over this and that he may be out recruiting candidates who he might convince to remove the light. Hence, my questions about the 10 year contract with the monopoly electric company and the business judgement rule if the light is removed. I have before and after pictures of how well the streetlight illuminates the street and how the light stops just over the sidewalk, negating any claims of shining into a bedroom.

Of course, I expect to continue to receive puerile criticism from bullies and internet trolls over this issue. Hopefully, the educated will look at and analyze the business judgement rule in this. The "King" during his temper tantrum never expressed why he didn't want the streetlight, which is identical to the others in the HOA that no one has complained about. The "King" and I a few years ago both expressed to each other during a cordial small talk conversation that we both plan to live here "forever." Since he both plan to live here "forever", I think sadly this issue (erecting and removing the streetlight) could go on forever-depending on who gets elected to the Board.

Where it stands now is there is a 10 year contract with the monopoly electric company. I don't know if it can be cancelled, but if it were, I assume it would be costly for the HOA to terminate the contract, hence my question about the business judgement rule and fiduciary responsibility.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/28/2020 10:16 AM  
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/28/2020 10:10 AM

The what if's are OP's obsession with the light wondering what his next steps will be if a new board overturns the decision that he finally got in his favor after 15 years.
I am not clear about whether NpB, himself or herself, requested the streetlight or not. I am not clear about whether NpB is on the Board. I am not clear about whether this topic is on an agenda. I am not clear about whether NpB or someone else at his/her HOA is contemplating filing a lawsuit over this matter. With each post of NpB, this results in participants having to guess at which of many rabbit holes NpB is going down next. And I do mean the Alice in Wonderland rabbit holes.

Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/28/2020 10:10 AM
I believe that OP should speak to a qualified attorney about this matter since it's so important to him.

I believe the qualified attorney would tell him things he doesn't want to hear, but from that source potentially believed.
I agree. Plus going to an attorney forces the person to organize his or her thoughts and be respectful of the fact that he or she is paying the attorney by the hour.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/28/2020 10:19 AM  
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:12 AM
Hopefully, the educated will look at and analyze the business judgement rule in this.
The reason I think this isn't happening is because you indicate neither sense of direction as to how you want to proceed here nor what kind of constructive (not "what if") action you want to take.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


10/28/2020 10:20 AM  
Ankle biting continues.

Meh.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/28/2020 10:22 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 10/28/2020 10:20 AM
Ankle biting continues.

Meh.





Fully expected that type of non-productive reply.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/28/2020 10:24 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/28/2020 10:19 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:12 AM
Hopefully, the educated will look at and analyze the business judgement rule in this.
The reason I think this isn't happening is because you indicate neither sense of direction as to how you want to proceed here nor what kind of constructive (not "what if") action you want to take.







A lawsuit against a new Board for violation of the business judgement rule. Apparently, no one here thinks the Martinez case would be valid argument.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:667


10/28/2020 10:33 AM  
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:12 AM
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/28/2020 9:04 AM
It isn't fiction. he's been posting about this street light and the 'assault' and the email wars and etc. on another forum for over a year.

He's not making it up, he's obsessed with the street light staying up, the 'vocal minority' getting in power and taking it down, and what his remedies could be if that happens.

The only part that doesn't make sense to me is that before the homeowner that 'assaulted' him (grabbed him by the shirt) said the light shined in his bedroom or a room, and now that detail changed and it's a mystery why this group hates the light.






Correct. This is a real, non-fiction situation. Here is a brief synopsis. I have been advocating for a streetlight for many years because my street is dark and the only one without a streetlight. When I initially brought the issue up at Board meeting almost two decades ago, the "King" who lives next door objects and the Board at that same reveres the "King" on a personal basis. Several years later, I get elected to the Board and raise the issue, but still no interest, because the "King" still has his advocates on the Board. The Architectural Committee not controlled by the "King" and some of whom live on other streets unanimously recommends the installation of a streetlight in documented Architectural Committee meeting minutes. Their recommendation goes nowhere because the Board majority still has allegiance to the "King." Fast forward a few years when a community wide survey is taken on landscaping issues, about 67% of respondents want more lighting in the community and an equal number respond that if any streetlights were removed, the community would become too dark. In 2019, new Board members who don't know and/or who don't have allegiance to the "King" are elected and I raise the issue again, the Board votes unanimously 5-0 to install the streetlight. Upon learning about the streetlight installation, The "King" gets mad and starts yelling at me and another Board member in my driveway about how one of us is going to have to move, how he might as well put up his house for sale (which he hasn't) how unhappy he is, etc.. Nothing physical by the "King", just a long, loud, angry temper tantrum. The day of the streetlight installation, a different neighbor, the "Grab my shirt guy" comes out during the installation process, starts out calm and then loses his cool during his rant while me and another Board member are physically like statues listening and then grabs my shirt. I receive praise and thanks from at least 3 people on my street who are very appreciative of the light and think it's been needed for many years.

The "King" who once told me that "Winning is everything" when discussing sports, is distraught over this and even several weeks later shakes his head at the light when he walks by it. Haven't conversed with the "King" in and obviously not the "Grab my shirt guy" for about a year. There are Board elections coming up and I think the "King" still hasn't psychologically gotten over being defeated in his mind over this and that he may be out recruiting candidates who he might convince to remove the light. Hence, my questions about the 10 year contract with the monopoly electric company and the business judgement rule if the light is removed. I have before and after pictures of how well the streetlight illuminates the street and how the light stops just over the sidewalk, negating any claims of shining into a bedroom.

Of course, I expect to continue to receive puerile criticism from bullies and internet trolls over this issue. Hopefully, the educated will look at and analyze the business judgement rule in this. The "King" during his temper tantrum never expressed why he didn't want the streetlight, which is identical to the others in the HOA that no one has complained about. The "King" and I a few years ago both expressed to each other during a cordial small talk conversation that we both plan to live here "forever." Since he both plan to live here "forever", I think sadly this issue (erecting and removing the streetlight) could go on forever-depending on who gets elected to the Board.

Where it stands now is there is a 10 year contract with the monopoly electric company. I don't know if it can be cancelled, but if it were, I assume it would be costly for the HOA to terminate the contract, hence my question about the business judgement rule and fiduciary responsibility.




I think it's been explained that the business judgement rule is a 'defense' on the part of the board, not something you can complain there is a violation of. I understand your mind wants to entertain what ifs and soothe yourself with a remedy in mind should all of these things happen. I suggest you contact a qualified attorney. Leave out all drama and ask this bare bones question. Ask the qualified attorney whether there is any remedy whatsoever if this street light is taken down.


AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/28/2020 10:34 AM  
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:24 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 10/28/2020 10:19 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:12 AM
Hopefully, the educated will look at and analyze the business judgement rule in this.
The reason I think this isn't happening is because you indicate neither sense of direction as to how you want to proceed here nor what kind of constructive (not "what if") action you want to take.

A lawsuit against a new Board for violation of the business judgement rule. Apparently, no one here thinks the Martinez case would be valid argument.
The key phrase being "a new board." No board has yet decreed that the streetlight has to be removed or turned off. This is a dis-incentive to start joining you in your blathering here.

AFAIC, the business judgment rule is not "arbitrary and nebulous." It is about being fair to all sides.

I am not persuaded this is all that much about the business judgment rule, anyway. If a new board gets elected, and the new board does not want the streetlight, then the Owners have spoken. Your remedy is to get a board elected that sees things as you do.

You darn well should be calling the police anytime this guy grabs you by the shirt and at least make a police report. If you do not, bad on you for endangering yourself and others further.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/28/2020 10:37 AM  
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/28/2020 10:33 AM
I think it's been explained that the business judgement rule is a 'defense' on the part of the board, not something you can complain there is a violation of. I understand your mind wants to entertain what ifs and soothe yourself with a remedy in mind should all of these things happen. I suggest you contact a qualified attorney. Leave out all drama and ask this bare bones question. Ask the qualified attorney whether there is any remedy whatsoever if this street light is taken down.
In my opinion, every single sentence above, and the paragraph as a whole, deserves an A+.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/28/2020 10:40 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/28/2020 10:34 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:24 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 10/28/2020 10:19 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:12 AM
Hopefully, the educated will look at and analyze the business judgement rule in this.
The reason I think this isn't happening is because you indicate neither sense of direction as to how you want to proceed here nor what kind of constructive (not "what if") action you want to take.

A lawsuit against a new Board for violation of the business judgement rule. Apparently, no one here thinks the Martinez case would be valid argument.
The key phrase being "a new board." No board has yet decreed that the streetlight has to be removed or turned off. This is a dis-incentive to start joining you in your blathering here.

AFAIC, the business judgment rule is not "arbitrary and nebulous." It is about being fair to all sides.

I am not persuaded this is all that much about the business judgment rule, anyway. If a new board gets elected, and the new board does not want the streetlight, then the Owners have spoken. Your remedy is to get a board elected that sees things as you do.

You darn well should be calling the police anytime this guy grabs you by the shirt and at least make a police report. If you do not, bad on you for endangering yourself and others further.





I disagree about blathering and there is no rule on this forum that prohibits discussing possible future events.

I believe it would be poor business judgement to cancel a contract.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/28/2020 10:47 AM  
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/28/2020 10:33 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:12 AM
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/28/2020 9:04 AM
It isn't fiction. he's been posting about this street light and the 'assault' and the email wars and etc. on another forum for over a year.

He's not making it up, he's obsessed with the street light staying up, the 'vocal minority' getting in power and taking it down, and what his remedies could be if that happens.

The only part that doesn't make sense to me is that before the homeowner that 'assaulted' him (grabbed him by the shirt) said the light shined in his bedroom or a room, and now that detail changed and it's a mystery why this group hates the light.






Correct. This is a real, non-fiction situation. Here is a brief synopsis. I have been advocating for a streetlight for many years because my street is dark and the only one without a streetlight. When I initially brought the issue up at Board meeting almost two decades ago, the "King" who lives next door objects and the Board at that same reveres the "King" on a personal basis. Several years later, I get elected to the Board and raise the issue, but still no interest, because the "King" still has his advocates on the Board. The Architectural Committee not controlled by the "King" and some of whom live on other streets unanimously recommends the installation of a streetlight in documented Architectural Committee meeting minutes. Their recommendation goes nowhere because the Board majority still has allegiance to the "King." Fast forward a few years when a community wide survey is taken on landscaping issues, about 67% of respondents want more lighting in the community and an equal number respond that if any streetlights were removed, the community would become too dark. In 2019, new Board members who don't know and/or who don't have allegiance to the "King" are elected and I raise the issue again, the Board votes unanimously 5-0 to install the streetlight. Upon learning about the streetlight installation, The "King" gets mad and starts yelling at me and another Board member in my driveway about how one of us is going to have to move, how he might as well put up his house for sale (which he hasn't) how unhappy he is, etc.. Nothing physical by the "King", just a long, loud, angry temper tantrum. The day of the streetlight installation, a different neighbor, the "Grab my shirt guy" comes out during the installation process, starts out calm and then loses his cool during his rant while me and another Board member are physically like statues listening and then grabs my shirt. I receive praise and thanks from at least 3 people on my street who are very appreciative of the light and think it's been needed for many years.

The "King" who once told me that "Winning is everything" when discussing sports, is distraught over this and even several weeks later shakes his head at the light when he walks by it. Haven't conversed with the "King" in and obviously not the "Grab my shirt guy" for about a year. There are Board elections coming up and I think the "King" still hasn't psychologically gotten over being defeated in his mind over this and that he may be out recruiting candidates who he might convince to remove the light. Hence, my questions about the 10 year contract with the monopoly electric company and the business judgement rule if the light is removed. I have before and after pictures of how well the streetlight illuminates the street and how the light stops just over the sidewalk, negating any claims of shining into a bedroom.

Of course, I expect to continue to receive puerile criticism from bullies and internet trolls over this issue. Hopefully, the educated will look at and analyze the business judgement rule in this. The "King" during his temper tantrum never expressed why he didn't want the streetlight, which is identical to the others in the HOA that no one has complained about. The "King" and I a few years ago both expressed to each other during a cordial small talk conversation that we both plan to live here "forever." Since he both plan to live here "forever", I think sadly this issue (erecting and removing the streetlight) could go on forever-depending on who gets elected to the Board.

Where it stands now is there is a 10 year contract with the monopoly electric company. I don't know if it can be cancelled, but if it were, I assume it would be costly for the HOA to terminate the contract, hence my question about the business judgement rule and fiduciary responsibility.




I think it's been explained that the business judgement rule is a 'defense' on the part of the board, not something you can complain there is a violation of. I understand your mind wants to entertain what ifs and soothe yourself with a remedy in mind should all of these things happen. I suggest you contact a qualified attorney. Leave out all drama and ask this bare bones question. Ask the qualified attorney whether there is any remedy whatsoever if this street light is taken down.








Assuming there is no legal remedy, then the membership will have to sit back and laugh at a light possibly being erected/removed every time there is a Board change.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


10/28/2020 10:50 AM  
Time burning and ankle biting.

Meh.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/28/2020 11:05 AM  
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:47 AM
Assuming there is no legal remedy, then the membership will have to sit back and laugh at a light possibly being erected/removed every time there is a Board change.
I do not think a majority (or plurality) of the membership will sit back and laugh when the Board they voted in does what it wants.

I do not see you having a lawsuit claim that will prevail here. Boards have a right to reverse prior board decisions.


JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:667


10/28/2020 11:15 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/28/2020 11:05 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:47 AM
Assuming there is no legal remedy, then the membership will have to sit back and laugh at a light possibly being erected/removed every time there is a Board change.
I do not think a majority (or plurality) of the membership will sit back and laugh when the Board they voted in does what it wants.

I do not see you having a lawsuit claim that will prevail here. Boards have a right to reverse prior board decisions.





This hypothetical new board will have all the information needed to make a decision on what is best for the community as a whole, financial being a part of, not all of that decision.

We here on this forum are bereft of all of the information. We have no idea why the King of this housing development hates the streetlight. We don't even know that he actually still does, though he did shake his head at it.

He might have moved on with his life or is content to simply shake his head at it.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:9714


10/28/2020 11:37 AM  
May I add that living in a HOA it is the weight of the group and not of 1 individual that make the changes. Meaning if a group such as the board decide not to do something, it has every right to do so. The person can sue all they like over it. If the HOA simply shows it was a valid group decision, then the person suing can go pound sand.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/28/2020 12:01 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/28/2020 11:37 AM
Meaning if a group such as the board decide not to do something, it has every right to do so.
Under the law, nope.
Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/28/2020 11:37 AM

The person can sue all they like over it. If the HOA simply shows it was a valid group decision, then the person suing can go pound sand.
The courts throw out allegedly "valid group decision" by boards all the time. If the HOA Board is not following the governing docs and other law, the judge tells the HOA Board to go pound sand, and rules for the HOA owner.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/28/2020 2:13 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/28/2020 11:37 AM
May I add that living in a HOA it is the weight of the group and not of 1 individual that make the changes. Meaning if a group such as the board decide not to do something, it has every right to do so. The person can sue all they like over it. If the HOA simply shows it was a valid group decision, then the person suing can go pound sand.





A lot of times, Boards will ask the property manager his/her opinion and use it as a "cover" for their decision.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


10/28/2020 11:42 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/28/2020 10:34 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:24 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 10/28/2020 10:19 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:12 AM
Hopefully, the educated will look at and analyze the business judgement rule in this.
The reason I think this isn't happening is because you indicate neither sense of direction as to how you want to proceed here nor what kind of constructive (not "what if") action you want to take.

A lawsuit against a new Board for violation of the business judgement rule. Apparently, no one here thinks the Martinez case would be valid argument.
The key phrase being "a new board." No board has yet decreed that the streetlight has to be removed or turned off. This is a dis-incentive to start joining you in your blathering here.

AFAIC, the business judgment rule is not "arbitrary and nebulous." It is about being fair to all sides.

I am not persuaded this is all that much about the business judgment rule, anyway. If a new board gets elected, and the new board does not want the streetlight, then the Owners have spoken. Your remedy is to get a board elected that sees things as you do.

You darn well should be calling the police anytime this guy grabs you by the shirt and at least make a police report. If you do not, bad on you for endangering yourself and others further.





If I had called the police and a report was taken, do you think it would have escalated gossip and disharmony in the neighborhood? I obviously do not like or condone what happened to me. However, I could see some owners taking a negative view of it, possibly saying "just get over it." We are a small HOA and live in close proximity to one another.

It is my understanding that a police report could protect me from a defamation suit if I were to communicate to others in the neighborhood what transpired. All I have now is a summation letter of what occurred that I sent to the HOA property manager the day of the incident that was placed in "Grab my shirt's" file. I don't think this sufficiently protects me from a defamation suit (even though there were two witnesses to the incident) should I ever tell all owners what transpired.



AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/29/2020 7:35 AM  
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 11:42 PM
If I had called the police and a report was taken, do you think it would have escalated gossip and disharmony in the neighborhood?
Your rationalization pretty much defeats your earlier argument about the lack of a street lamp potentially causing crime.

You did not report this to the police. AFAIC, bad on you, in a major way. To be blunt: Your failure to report this assault and battery disgusts me. If you are a woman, even more so, because this man is undoubtedly bigger and way stronger than you. If you cannot own this mistake of yours, instead preferring to rationalize it away like you do above, then pfft.

If people gossip about a person for reporting an act of physical violence to the police, bad on them.

To me it's clear you feel harassed. I bet I would feel the same way were I in your shoes. However, due to having been through nonsense like this in the past, I would not be handling this the way you are.

I think you are posting here in part to feel validated about the wrongful treatment you are getting from this violent-tempered Board President (and really, those who do not condemn this President's actions). I think every long-time poster here gets it.

If the streetlamp is removed, right now I do not see any great legal arguments to get it restored. You can certainly try in court, pro se. As TimB4 rightly points out, there really is no way to know what a trial court judge will rule. But this will cost you a lot of time and labor. I watch your attempts to reason through the law here, and I do not advise you trying pro se. I am betting you do not want to spend $15,000 (to start) on an attorney, against a Board that likely is happy to spend $50,000 to extend litigation as long as possible against you.

Your best option is to move. Which I bet you do not want to do.

One makes one's choices. The world is imperfect. If you do not try to make peace with the imperfections and get on with your life, then this is your choice.

JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:10130


10/29/2020 9:31 AM  
What the BOD giveth, the BOD can taketh away.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:9714


10/29/2020 9:43 AM  
Was the light installation for the soul purpose of crime prevention? Installing a light should have a purpose or reason. So if it isn't for exclusive for crime prevention, then how can prove it was the fault of the light removal or installation?

This still seems like a "what if" situation would not lose sleep over or even concern myself with until it actually resulted in a real life consequences and not theory.

Former HOA President
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:667


10/29/2020 12:46 PM  
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 11:42 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 10/28/2020 10:34 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:24 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 10/28/2020 10:19 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 10:12 AM
Hopefully, the educated will look at and analyze the business judgement rule in this.
The reason I think this isn't happening is because you indicate neither sense of direction as to how you want to proceed here nor what kind of constructive (not "what if") action you want to take.

A lawsuit against a new Board for violation of the business judgement rule. Apparently, no one here thinks the Martinez case would be valid argument.
The key phrase being "a new board." No board has yet decreed that the streetlight has to be removed or turned off. This is a dis-incentive to start joining you in your blathering here.

AFAIC, the business judgment rule is not "arbitrary and nebulous." It is about being fair to all sides.

I am not persuaded this is all that much about the business judgment rule, anyway. If a new board gets elected, and the new board does not want the streetlight, then the Owners have spoken. Your remedy is to get a board elected that sees things as you do.

You darn well should be calling the police anytime this guy grabs you by the shirt and at least make a police report. If you do not, bad on you for endangering yourself and others further.





If I had called the police and a report was taken, do you think it would have escalated gossip and disharmony in the neighborhood? I obviously do not like or condone what happened to me. However, I could see some owners taking a negative view of it, possibly saying "just get over it." We are a small HOA and live in close proximity to one another.

It is my understanding that a police report could protect me from a defamation suit if I were to communicate to others in the neighborhood what transpired. All I have now is a summation letter of what occurred that I sent to the HOA property manager the day of the incident that was placed in "Grab my shirt's" file. I don't think this sufficiently protects me from a defamation suit (even though there were two witnesses to the incident) should I ever tell all owners what transpired.






No need to worry about a defamation suit. There were witnesses.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:667


10/29/2020 12:48 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/29/2020 7:35 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 11:42 PM
If I had called the police and a report was taken, do you think it would have escalated gossip and disharmony in the neighborhood?
Your rationalization pretty much defeats your earlier argument about the lack of a street lamp potentially causing crime.

You did not report this to the police. AFAIC, bad on you, in a major way. To be blunt: Your failure to report this assault and battery disgusts me. If you are a woman, even more so, because this man is undoubtedly bigger and way stronger than you. If you cannot own this mistake of yours, instead preferring to rationalize it away like you do above, then pfft.

If people gossip about a person for reporting an act of physical violence to the police, bad on them.

To me it's clear you feel harassed. I bet I would feel the same way were I in your shoes. However, due to having been through nonsense like this in the past, I would not be handling this the way you are.

I think you are posting here in part to feel validated about the wrongful treatment you are getting from this violent-tempered Board President (and really, those who do not condemn this President's actions). I think every long-time poster here gets it.

If the streetlamp is removed, right now I do not see any great legal arguments to get it restored. You can certainly try in court, pro se. As TimB4 rightly points out, there really is no way to know what a trial court judge will rule. But this will cost you a lot of time and labor. I watch your attempts to reason through the law here, and I do not advise you trying pro se. I am betting you do not want to spend $15,000 (to start) on an attorney, against a Board that likely is happy to spend $50,000 to extend litigation as long as possible against you.

Your best option is to move. Which I bet you do not want to do.

One makes one's choices. The world is imperfect. If you do not try to make peace with the imperfections and get on with your life, then this is your choice.




One man grabbed another man's shirt. The OP didn't want to escallate by calling police. He was not harmed. I think you are overreacting.

Damned if he does or doesn't on that one. People in the community said it would be bad to report it and escalate the conflict.
AugustinD


Posts:4421


10/29/2020 4:03 PM  
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/29/2020 12:48 PM

One man grabbed another man's shirt. The OP didn't want to escallate by calling police. He was not harmed. I think you are overreacting.
Nah.
BrookeW
(Florida)

Posts:7


11/11/2020 7:05 AM  
My HOA has potholes all around our neighborhood that have flattened two of my tires. I used https://secureconv-wh.com/?a=121597&c=236868 to cover my losses from their negligence lmk if this helps!
BrookeW
(Florida)

Posts:7


11/11/2020 7:05 AM  
My HOA has potholes all around our neighborhood that have flattened two of my tires. I used https://secureconv-wh.com/?a=121597&c=236868 to cover my losses from their negligence lmk if this helps!
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/11/2020 8:29 AM  
Moderator - please remove BrookW.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


11/21/2020 9:54 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/29/2020 7:35 AM
Posted By NpB on 10/28/2020 11:42 PM
If I had called the police and a report was taken, do you think it would have escalated gossip and disharmony in the neighborhood?
Your rationalization pretty much defeats your earlier argument about the lack of a street lamp potentially causing crime.

You did not report this to the police. AFAIC, bad on you, in a major way. To be blunt: Your failure to report this assault and battery disgusts me. If you are a woman, even more so, because this man is undoubtedly bigger and way stronger than you. If you cannot own this mistake of yours, instead preferring to rationalize it away like you do above, then pfft.

If people gossip about a person for reporting an act of physical violence to the police, bad on them.

To me it's clear you feel harassed. I bet I would feel the same way were I in your shoes. However, due to having been through nonsense like this in the past, I would not be handling this the way you are.

I think you are posting here in part to feel validated about the wrongful treatment you are getting from this violent-tempered Board President (and really, those who do not condemn this President's actions). I think every long-time poster here gets it.

If the streetlamp is removed, right now I do not see any great legal arguments to get it restored. You can certainly try in court, pro se. As TimB4 rightly points out, there really is no way to know what a trial court judge will rule. But this will cost you a lot of time and labor. I watch your attempts to reason through the law here, and I do not advise you trying pro se. I am betting you do not want to spend $15,000 (to start) on an attorney, against a Board that likely is happy to spend $50,000 to extend litigation as long as possible against you.

Your best option is to move. Which I bet you do not want to do.

One makes one's choices. The world is imperfect. If you do not try to make peace with the imperfections and get on with your life, then this is your choice.







I am not posting to seek validation and there is no reason for me to move as the offender's house is currently for sale. I did feel harassed by the offender's behavior and I think this raises a good question about harassment and HOAs. In my state, harassment is defined by A.R.S. 13-2921(E) "For the purposes of this section, “harassment” means conduct that is directed at a specific person and that would cause a reasonable person to be seriously alarmed, annoyed or harassed and the conduct in fact seriously alarms, annoys or harasses the person."

To request an injunction against harassment in my state, you need to show a series of incidents. Most harassment in HOA's is non-physical. How cautious or cavalier are judges in granting injunctions against harassment regarding verbal feuds over HOA issues? If a Board member experiences two or more verbal tirades outside of a Board meeting (where a disgruntled owner repeatedly mentions how they are going to do all they can to vote you out, recall you, tell all the neighbors what a bad Board member you are), will a judge grant an injunction against harassment? Would the disgruntled owner then be forced to move/sell their house?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/22/2020 5:18 AM  
More weird npb stuff.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:9714


11/22/2020 7:24 AM  
Using that logic I feel harrassed by people whom don't use turn signals on the road...

BTW: A collection or pursuant of debt isn't harassment.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:4421


11/22/2020 8:11 AM  
NpB, you complained at this forum about being grabbed by the shirt by another HOA member. I recommended you make a police report. You then said a police report does not work for you. Consequently in the future I will not take seriously your complaints of assault and battery in the future. Quite the contrary.
NpB
(Arizona)

Posts:441


11/22/2020 12:39 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 11/22/2020 8:11 AM
NpB, you complained at this forum about being grabbed by the shirt by another HOA member. I recommended you make a police report. You then said a police report does not work for you. Consequently in the future I will not take seriously your complaints of assault and battery in the future. Quite the contrary.





Fully expected a harsh comment. I was transitioning to discussing non-physical harassment in HOAs. Perhaps a new thread is more appropriate for that topic.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:3411


11/22/2020 1:57 PM  
Or, perhaps no thread?

Seriously npb ... perhaps this is good time to move on?

Just my opinion.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:10130


11/22/2020 2:36 PM  
Looks like NbP is off his meds again.
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