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AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
We have gotten a few complaints regarding neighbor behavior over the past month. Some Board members would like to address these complaints at our open Board meetings.

Would this be done in executive session or just as an open agenda item? Would love to hear your thoughts on this!
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Please be specific about the behaviors. Illegal? Against your governing documents or rules? Something between just two neighbors?

If against your rules, does your HOA have a written policy about fines?? Or warning letters? Or hearings?
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/28/2018 4:51 PM
Please be specific about the behaviors. Illegal? Against your governing documents or rules? Something between just two neighbors?

If against your rules, does your HOA have a written policy about fines?? Or warning letters? Or hearings?

One is a direct violation of our CC&Rs: alleged car repair work in driveway.
Another is a homeowner trying to sell her home but can't b/c neighbors on both sides of her have rundown properties.
One is a homeowner who is upset a builder placed a port-a-potty across the street from her house on the lot where they are doing new construction.
One homeowner is complaining that another homeowner is mowing a common area path that leads directly to her backyard, thus random people are walking on her property.

Nothing illegal.

We are unable to fine homeowners in my state. This Board is new, as of last summer. Since our inception in 1999, not one CC&R violation has been dealt with by any Board. With dues of $95 annually, we just don't have much cash to go after ALL of the violations.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
Generally, you should not go into executive session to discuss general complaints or violations. For example, discussing being more proactive with violations or discussing why there are so many violations that have not been addressed. If you are discussing enforcement action for a specific owner, then it would probably be appropriate to go into executive session.

Every state has different laws so Indiana may or may not allow this.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
A few of things are bit out of scope of the HOA. #1 the person can't sell their house because the houses next to them are run down? That is subjective of why the house is not selling. Unless they get it in writing from a potential buyer the reason they did not buy is because those 2 houses, it's just what that homeowner is saying. No proof it's the fault of condition of the houses next to it. I did not buy a house because hated the wallpaper. So someone not buying a home can be a numerous of reasons. Maybe it being in a HOA turns people off...

The car repairs... Was it an oil change or brake pad replacement? The car is still tagged and not on abandoned is it? Don't see anything wrong with a 1 day repair like oil changes.. Now transmission or engine replacement then that is an issue.

The portable toilet is a requirement for if your building on the property. The builder has to have one on the construction site to be able to build on it. Most of the time they are placed in the front at the curb for easier pick up. Most of the time they are not even used. Just there as part of the requirement of what has to be in place to build on a lot.

Former HOA President
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/28/2018 5:42 PM
A few of things are bit out of scope of the HOA. #1 the person can't sell their house because the houses next to them are run down? That is subjective of why the house is not selling. Unless they get it in writing from a potential buyer the reason they did not buy is because those 2 houses, it's just what that homeowner is saying. No proof it's the fault of condition of the houses next to it. I did not buy a house because hated the wallpaper. So someone not buying a home can be a numerous of reasons. Maybe it being in a HOA turns people off...

The car repairs... Was it an oil change or brake pad replacement? The car is still tagged and not on abandoned is it? Don't see anything wrong with a 1 day repair like oil changes.. Now transmission or engine replacement then that is an issue.

The portable toilet is a requirement for if your building on the property. The builder has to have one on the construction site to be able to build on it. Most of the time they are placed in the front at the curb for easier pick up. Most of the time they are not even used. Just there as part of the requirement of what has to be in place to build on a lot.

We think way too much alike.. and I think that's a good thing! Since these homeowners contacted the Board, should we move forward with discussing this formally at a meeting? I think that's the sentiment other Board members have. If so, open or executive session?
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 04/28/2018 5:39 PM
Generally, you should not go into executive session to discuss general complaints or violations. For example, discussing being more proactive with violations or discussing why there are so many violations that have not been addressed. If you are discussing enforcement action for a specific owner, then it would probably be appropriate to go into executive session.

Every state has different laws so Indiana may or may not allow this.

Appreciate your guidance!
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
My rule since we had open meetings, is to read any letters openly at a board meeting. The HOA is ALL the membership. It's part of the operation of it. My rule of thumb is if you have an issue, you present a solution. Otherwise, you leave it up to the HOA board to give you one.

So I would keep it open and tell the complainers that is the policy. You have the choice to attend in person to address the issue or if you write a letter, it's to be read out loud at the meeting. Whatever decision made you either hear it first hand or it is written back to you.

These complaints I would point out the facts of the matter. Most HOA's allow oil changes but don't allow abandoned/business of vehicles. The HOA does NOT keep home values. Just the homes being attractive to potential buyers. The builder is required to have that outhouse. So these complainers can get the facts and put them in perspective. The perspective of this is not violations of the HOA nor it's responsibility.

Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
So you're saying, Adam, you have NO way to enforce your rules??? Nothing?

If you have rules that require that yards should be well maintained, can you send a gardener in and bill the Owner? First, you should give the owners, say, 30 days to clean up. And then probably have a private hearing with the Owner.

(It doesn't matter whether someone says it's hurting her ability to sell her house. All that matters is what your rules or covenants state.)

Do you have common area amenities that you can keep owners out of if they break the rules? We, for instance, have disabled fobs to the pool area for rules violators. This could be done with the guy who works on his car. This is against our rules too. Doesn't matter what TYPE of work--none is allowed here.

Maybe Sheila of IN can help.
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/28/2018 6:09 PM
So you're saying, Adam, you have NO way to enforce your rules??? Nothing?

If you have rules that require that yards should be well maintained, can you send a gardener in and bill the Owner? First, you should give the owners, say, 30 days to clean up. And then probably have a private hearing with the Owner.

(It doesn't matter whether someone says it's hurting her ability to sell her house. All that matters is what your rules or covenants state.)

Do you have common area amenities that you can keep owners out of if they break the rules? We, for instance, have disabled fobs to the pool area for rules violators. This could be done with the guy who works on his car. This is against our rules too. Doesn't matter what TYPE of work--none is allowed here.

Maybe Sheila of IN can help.

Yes, I'm say no way of enforcing our rules. We have common areas, but our only "amenity" is a run down walking trail that bisects the subdivision.

I believe our attorney once mentioned that since our rules have never been enforced, for nearly 20 years, a homeowner can argue against any potential enforcement in court in my state.

We also have VERY limited resources, since dues were kept low by prior Boards. Thus, taking just a couple homeowners to court would most likely drain our funds.
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/28/2018 6:01 PM
My rule since we had open meetings, is to read any letters openly at a board meeting. The HOA is ALL the membership. It's part of the operation of it. My rule of thumb is if you have an issue, you present a solution. Otherwise, you leave it up to the HOA board to give you one.

So I would keep it open and tell the complainers that is the policy. You have the choice to attend in person to address the issue or if you write a letter, it's to be read out loud at the meeting. Whatever decision made you either hear it first hand or it is written back to you.

These complaints I would point out the facts of the matter. Most HOA's allow oil changes but don't allow abandoned/business of vehicles. The HOA does NOT keep home values. Just the homes being attractive to potential buyers. The builder is required to have that outhouse. So these complainers can get the facts and put them in perspective. The perspective of this is not violations of the HOA nor it's responsibility.

Okay cool. I just wasn't sure if Robert's Rules took issue with this or some HOA quirk out there that I'm not aware of. Thanks a bunch!
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Melissa, back in the days when she was prez, made up her own meeting procedures, Adam. And AL is different than IN. Your state may have a way to enforce that you don't know about.

Are you sure you can't hire a gardener to clean up nasty yards IF your rules say they MUST be maintained per your covenants? Once you've warned the owner in writing?

I guess you could resort to pubic shaming at open board meetings of violations you're positive about. There are some here who like that approach.

Some HOAs have strict rules about auto maintenance and some don't; obviously Melissa's old HOA didn't. I do not know if "most" allow oil changes.
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/28/2018 6:31 PM
Melissa, back in the days when she was prez, made up her own meeting procedures, Adam. And AL is different than IN. Your state may have a way to enforce that you don't know about.

Are you sure you can't hire a gardener to clean up nasty yards IF your rules say they MUST be maintained per your covenants? Once you've warned the owner in writing?

I guess you could resort to pubic shaming at open board meetings of violations you're positive about. There are some here who like that approach.

Some HOAs have strict rules about auto maintenance and some don't; obviously Melissa's old HOA didn't. I do not know if "most" allow oil changes.

WE have a couple homeowners who are hoarders and have pianos, fridges, etc. on their front porch. Who would we get to remove the trash? Then bill the homeowners (who are delinquent in their accounts, so odds are we won't be able to collect. And no, it's not financially logical to foreclose on these homes)

I'm not trying to be difficult, but my "HOA" is really a F'ing mess (pardon my language!) I just don't even know how to begin such a daunting process sometimes. Keep in mind I'd bet about 98% of homes are in violation of one or more CC&R. I know this because I walk the subdivision with my herd (3 dogs) and look at all of the homes.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Rules enforcement – sometimes I wonder which is the bigger headache – that or finances!

I wouldn’t discuss specific homeowner violations in an open board meeting – those should be reserved for executive session after you’ve sent a violation notice. If the person doesn’t fix the problem within a certain time, you can request he/she attend a violation hearing or some such to explain what’s going on. Or you can use that to listen to any appeals the homeowner may request.

In our community, we don’t allow major car repairs either (changing a flat or jumping a dead battery is fine), so if you don’t have a rule on what is or isn’t acceptable, check your documents to ensure the board can set rules and then do it.

That’s how you can address the car repair work, but you’ll need to decide how far you will push if the homeowner tells you to go *&&^% yourself. This is why it’s best to ask homeowners which violations or plain old bad behavior gets on their nerves the most and then draft rules from that – without buy in from the homeowners as to why enforcement is important, you’ll find it very difficult to make a difference.

In fact, you must start there if things escalate to where you wind up in court because your attorney is right – a judge might say nothing’s been enforced in 20 years, why are you starting now? You need to:

1. educate the homeowners on why CCRs are necessary, acknowledge nothings’s been done to date, but starting now, people get ready, a new day is coming
2. Poll the homeowners as to what the problem areas are, then prioritize the biggest ones, as that’s where you’ll start
3. draft and then establish rules where the CCRs are silent -after you send the drafts to the homeowners for their comments), decide how they’ll be enforced
4. send everyone a letter announcing the new policy and when it takes effect. You might consider a 6 month to one year period of leniency, where no formal action will be taken so homeowners have a chance to clean up their act. After that period, start your rule enforcement in earnest and hang on for a wild ride.

As I’ve said in previous posts, there will be pushback, people will scream and threaten you with recalls lawsuits and all that BS, but the board must be resolute. If you can hang on for a few years, make sure you keep everyone in the loop and are fair and consistent, most will see the light and get behind you. If not, at least you tried.

Oh, yeah, some of this will require money, so you may as well tell everyone that fee increases are coming (how else will you maintain what the association’s supposed to maintain?) It’s not about kicking people around, but a matter of ensuring financial stability and ultimately the cleanliness and attractiveness that HOAs are supposed to be doing. If the homeowners won’t clean up after themselves, but want their property values to go up, they’ll have to pay someone to do it for them.

Now about the rest of your issues:

Melissa may be right about the port-a-potty in the construction area. It may not be a good look, but as long as it doesn’t stink, leak or attract vermin, this homeowner will just have to wait until the construction is done – or let the workers use HER restroom when necessary.

Regarding the hoarders who seem to be turning their front porches into the set from Sanford and Son – keeping pianos, refrigerators and that crap out in the open could be a health department issue because it attracts vermin, so check with them to see if a complaint can be made that way.

Not sure what’s going on with this common area path – why is the homeowner mowing it? If it’s the association responsibility, it should be handling the maintenance. If the homeowner is trying to make a path on association property, tell him/her to stop it. That might not help random people walking across the neighbors’ property though – in fact, some people waltz through yards with or without fences. Before you get into this however, ask the complainer if she’s spoken to her neighbor about this – she should try that first while you figure out if the association is responsible for that patch of land – if not, she’ll have to settle this with the neighbor on her own.

The neighbor living between the two rundown properties – that is the primary reason we have CCRs – one of the goals is to ensure that the original look and design of the community is maintained, not to mention help ensure that the entire neighbor looks clean and attractive, because no one wants to live next door or across from a slob. Beyond rule enforcement though, the association can’t guarantee anyone’s house will sell. If there are association rules being violated by the neighbors you may be able to address that part, otherwise, we may have dispute between neighbors and they’ll have to work it out themselves.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
If the car repairs are chronic in nature, then address directly w/ the homeowner (no public hearing) if it violates policy.

Ignore the Port-o-Potty complaint. It's temporary and understandble....and better than the alternative for the neighbor.

The mowed common area is not worth mention. The behavior of people doing the walking is the "problem" that the property owner can self-correct in all likelihood.

Typical fare.
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
UPDATE : These were all discussed at our Board meeting the other night. In essence, if it doesn't violated our governing docs, then we can't do anything about it. If it DOES violate one of ours, then the only recourse the homeowner has is to take the offending party to court and file for an injunction to stop the alleged violation. The HOA's long-term goal is to raise dues each year (legally we can do 110% without homeowner approval) until we have enough in our coffers to begin a violation policy that has teeth (aka, we'll have money to take to court if need be).
HomE (Washington)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Calling out specific people/properties in a meeting is a bad idea. Discuss the rule on working in a driveway. Yes. Discuss penalties needed? Yes. Discuss that Jim at 34 Sunset Road did it last Tuesday? no.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AdamD1 on 05/03/2018 8:01 AM
UPDATE : These were all discussed at our Board meeting the other night. In essence, if it doesn't violated our governing docs, then we can't do anything about it. If it DOES violate one of ours, then the only recourse the homeowner has is to take the offending party to court and file for an injunction to stop the alleged violation. The HOA's long-term goal is to raise dues each year (legally we can do 110% without homeowner approval) until we have enough in our coffers to begin a violation policy that has teeth (aka, we'll have money to take to court if need be).

This sounds like a very bad idea to me. One case with a couple of appeals can cost tens of thousands of dollars and there is no guarantee you will win any case, no matter how right you think you might be. The board should be very cautious and selective about filing suit. Afterall, it is not the board's money they will be spending.

I hope the board is up front with the membership with the reason they are raising the assessments.
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 05/07/2018 3:25 PM
Posted By AdamD1 on 05/03/2018 8:01 AM
UPDATE : These were all discussed at our Board meeting the other night. In essence, if it doesn't violated our governing docs, then we can't do anything about it. If it DOES violate one of ours, then the only recourse the homeowner has is to take the offending party to court and file for an injunction to stop the alleged violation. The HOA's long-term goal is to raise dues each year (legally we can do 110% without homeowner approval) until we have enough in our coffers to begin a violation policy that has teeth (aka, we'll have money to take to court if need be).


This sounds like a very bad idea to me. One case with a couple of appeals can cost tens of thousands of dollars and there is no guarantee you will win any case, no matter how right you think you might be. The board should be very cautious and selective about filing suit. Afterall, it is not the board's money they will be spending.

I hope the board is up front with the membership with the reason they are raising the assessments.

I think you misread what I wrote. I stated: If it DOES violate one of ours, then the only recourse the homeowner has is to take the offending party to court and file for an injunction to stop the alleged violation. That is on the homeowner, not the Board.

We will raise dues to enforce our CC&Rs. If a homeowner does not feel comfortable enforcing rules, then they should not be on the Board. I did not write our governing docs, but I must uphold them to the best of my ability as a Board member.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
110% !!! Holy Cow! I think we can only do like 5% or something like that.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
Our only enforcement option is also court and we are also responsible for enforcing the CC&Rs, so I think I understand your position. The board has to decide in each situation what is in the best interests of the association and sometimes that may mean not enforcing a violation.

If there is a risk of losing thousands of dollars enforcing a minor violation, you have to decide if it's worth it. If it's something that most of the community is concerned about it might be worth it but if it's something most people don't care about, why would you spend their money suing when you may not win the case.

I would be upset if my board raised our assessments for the purpose of building a war chest for enforcement and I think a lot of your members might also be.

AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DouglasM6 on 05/07/2018 5:12 PM
110% !!! Holy Cow! I think we can only do like 5% or something like that.

10%... typo!
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 05/07/2018 5:59 PM
Our only enforcement option is also court and we are also responsible for enforcing the CC&Rs, so I think I understand your position. The board has to decide in each situation what is in the best interests of the association and sometimes that may mean not enforcing a violation.

If there is a risk of losing thousands of dollars enforcing a minor violation, you have to decide if it's worth it. If it's something that most of the community is concerned about it might be worth it but if it's something most people don't care about, why would you spend their money suing when you may not win the case.

I would be upset if my board raised our assessments for the purpose of building a war chest for enforcement and I think a lot of your members might also be.


Great! Then I hope they are so upset they can replace me at our next annual meeting. We have had a vacant Board position for the last 3 months. Out of nearly 450 homes, not ONE homeowner has come forward to volunteer. A P A T H Y!
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 05/07/2018 5:59 PM
Our only enforcement option is also court and we are also responsible for enforcing the CC&Rs, so I think I understand your position. The board has to decide in each situation what is in the best interests of the association and sometimes that may mean not enforcing a violation.

If there is a risk of losing thousands of dollars enforcing a minor violation, you have to decide if it's worth it. If it's something that most of the community is concerned about it might be worth it but if it's something most people don't care about, why would you spend their money suing when you may not win the case.

I would be upset if my board raised our assessments for the purpose of building a war chest for enforcement and I think a lot of your members might also be.


And you're right. There are some violations which are more serious in nature than others. Trash littered in a few homeowners front yards is more of a concern than the 98% of homeowners who have weeds in their grass (both CC&R violations). But we do need SOME money to go after the most egregious violations.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I saw "executive session" a couple of times ...

I'm not sure what this is ... usually states allow closed sessions only to discuss legal matters ... not strategies to fix issues.

State by State rules?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/08/2018 3:52 PM
I saw "executive session" a couple of times ...

I'm not sure what this is ... usually states allow closed sessions only to discuss legal matters ... not strategies to fix issues.

State by State rules?

When a complaint is registered against a specific person it is common practice to discuss such in private (Executive Session if needed) until a determination is made. No need to hang them in public unless proven/necessary.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Is executive session spelled out in either Bylaws or statute?
AdamD1 (Indiana)
Posts: 179
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 05/08/2018 8:51 PM
Is executive session spelled out in either Bylaws or statute?

Not in my community/state.

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