Get 1 year of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Monday, June 01, 2020











HOATalk is a free service of Community123.com:

Get 1 free year community website and email newsletter hosting from Community123.com!
Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.
Subject: Case study in Condo gone wrong
Prev Next
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Author Messages
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/11/2016 11:40 AM  
I am an owner in a condo in Wa state.
I have lived in the unit for 15 years

I am also a former board member from 2007-2010.

condo is from late 1970s and is aged with 40 year old siding in many places.

the board under took a SPA starting in 2007 and onward to fix roof and aged siding.
SPA has been ongoing since 2007, and there has been great progress on several buildings


I met with board pres a week and half ago to show him the condition of 25 year old parking lot.

at this time Board president told me association has 300K in delinquencies, and blamed the property management company for this.


That day was the 3rd attempt at an annual meeting, and the audience was ripe with upset home owners.

after the meeting I met with a neighbor, and he shared with me numerous concerns that had been on going for the last 18-24 months by several home owners.
he stated that home owners questions and concerns had been unanswered by property management company and board.

the property management company lost the former CEO around 2 years ago, and performance seems to decrease.
our association has had perhaps 10 Pms in the last 2 years.

property management company now has new CEO, and has fired and replaced approx 95% of staff



I shall summarize concerns here:


Issues and questions:

2013, 2014, 2015 auditor's report not provided in a timely fashion.. still not signed and finalized

status of presumed owned E-14 unit by the association

status of presumed owned H-1 unit by the association

status of insurance settlement lawsuit monies for 1.285Million,
identified in 2011 audit not 5.
board president says association only received approx. 300K

accounts that are 20K+ is arrears, that is like a decade's forth of fees.

Motion was passed in 2010 to lien after 30 days.

status of cash funds at foundation bank

status of current association account amounts?

2013 draft audit ($359,229.96) replacement fund shortfall?

approximately 300K currently in delinquencies, up from 80K in 2010

report of internal control from draft 2013 audit of capital control delinquencies

why SPA funds and Reserve funds are commingled?

Why using Reserve funds for operations?

I have tried to engage the board president, but he seems to brush off questions with BS.

I want to know how to best go about attacking these issue with the association, and the board

AND IF

as a home owner I have grounds for a lawsuit for gross negligence and incompetence?


thanks


TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16778


06/11/2016 12:24 PM  
Posted By TV on 06/11/2016 11:40 AM

I want to know how to best go about attacking these issue with the association, and the board

AND IF

as a home owner I have grounds for a lawsuit for gross negligence and incompetence?






Since you served on the Board until 2010, how many of those issues were your board dealing with?


Best way to attack these issues with the Association is to get back involved and assist the Board in cleaning up the mess.
Start with reading the MC contract and decide if the Board should can and should cancel.
The President blaming the MC sounds more like the Board failed to do their job (which is trust but verify what the MC does).
Therefore, it may be time to replace the Board but simply offering to assist may work also.


As a homeowner, yes you could likely sue the Association.
What do you think that will do to make the issues you describe better?
What issues would become worse (or be created) if you took legal action?


Personally, from what you described, it sounds like the MC went through major issues and the Association is suffering because the Board didn't pick up the slack caused by the MC not doing their job and failed to minimize the effect by not cancelling the contract for cause and hiring a new company.


Hence, the issues you describe are due to your Board. Therefore, you need to gather support and toss the bums out either by recall or simply not electing them. This may require you to once again serve your neighbors by being a Director to straighten the mess out.
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/11/2016 12:34 PM  

I am very reluctantly adding my name to be a potential appointee by the board for one of the 2 open positions.

let me clarify. I feel strongly the board has failed, and I attribute the biggest share of the blame to the board president.

I don't want to sue the association, I am wanting to sue the Board president..
as this person's failures have been ongoing since the time when I was on the board.

he has been on the board for over 10 years, and this situation is a classic example of amateurs trying to lead a non profit business
JonD1


Posts:0


06/11/2016 1:01 PM  
Posted By TV on 06/11/2016 12:34 PM

I am very reluctantly adding my name to be a potential appointee by the board for one of the 2 open positions.

let me clarify. I feel strongly the board has failed, and I attribute the biggest share of the blame to the board president.

I don't want to sue the association, I am wanting to sue the Board president..
as this person's failures have been ongoing since the time when I was on the board.

he has been on the board for over 10 years, and this situation is a classic example of amateurs trying to lead a non profit business





It seems personal when you single out just the board President. Do the other board members get a pass? After all, they vote the President into their position. And I doubt, you can sue the President as an individual while accepting the role of those others serving.

Under what circumstances did you leave the board? If the President is as incompetent and incapable as you now suggest why would you leave the board and why would you allow them to continue on in their current role upon your departure.

Bad boards and bad board Presidents remain in power because they are allowed to do so. As I may have mentioned once or twice before in the end the ultimate responsibility lies with the property owners who allow unqualified or incompetent people to serve because they can't be bothered.

Suing the board President would be adding gasoline to a raging fire. Just what would that accomplish? Other than your property paying for their defense?

Sounds like the MC has had issues and the BOARD, all of them, have failed in doing their jobs. There appears to be more than enough blame to go around. And perhaps some of that blame lies with you and the other property owners. Including those who don't bother paying their CCs.

Sounds like you have quite a mess. My guess the fix will be far more complicated than removing, suing, or placing blame on the current President.

You require people do their jobs, do the job yourself with like minded people who decide they need to step forward, or allow the status quo.

Boards will do what they are allowed to get away with. As much or as little as will be tolerated by the property owners. Sounds like the operation of your property has been farmed out for far to long.

Good luck.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3987


06/11/2016 1:06 PM  
Posted By TV on 06/11/2016 12:34 PM

I am very reluctantly adding my name to be a potential appointee by the board for one of the 2 open positions.

let me clarify. I feel strongly the board has failed, and I attribute the biggest share of the blame to the board president.

I don't want to sue the association, I am wanting to sue the Board president..
as this person's failures have been ongoing since the time when I was on the board.

he has been on the board for over 10 years, and this situation is a classic example of amateurs trying to lead a non profit business

Unclear to me why you would go after the prez for leading your org down a bad path, but not go after the other board members who let him do it.

Your claim IMO is against the HOA board (for letting it happen), not the prez.

If there is a personal vendetta, you-v-prez or prez-v-you, that only makes things messier.

You're going to need support from your community, and if it was that easy, you would have done something about this long ago.




Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BobD4
(up north)

Posts:916


06/11/2016 1:45 PM  
Posted By TV : . . . I want to know how to best go about attacking these issue with the association, and the board AND IF as a home owner I have grounds for a lawsuit for gross negligence and incompetence ?




TV Wash Good comments & possibly more good stuff upcoming from Washington commenters.

1- Is it worth trying to personally sue individual Directors - your choices or what the owners tolerated - for "gross negligence & incompetence"

Presuming your condo is subject to Wash ch 64.34 Condominium Act ( http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=64.34 )the statutory standard of performance required by the state is "ordinary and reasonable care". ( Article 3 Management - RCW 64.34.308 Board of directors and officers - (1) )

Higher than the 3 Stooges /mere honest but incompetent. But how high ? And is it further elevated in your governance documents ? And could you target merely the President ? And how many Boards since 2010 ?

2 - Whether targetting one or all of what you & other owners elected or tolerated onto the Boards, it is worth taking a look at AugustinD's recent topic here that led to a discussion of Derivative Remedy
Augustin D “Corporate Fraud re Elections? Arbitration?”
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/214511/view/topic/Default.aspx

This doesn't look easy.

3 In recent years in my jurisdiction courts have censured several rogue Presidents for pursuing divurgent interests & even found Board members in contempt of court, both attracting personal penalties. But pretty rare. And not for mere gross negligence.

Comments from others will be interesting. Good luck.


AugustinD


Posts:3382


06/11/2016 2:32 PM  
As a matter of law, I do not think any of TV's claims are allegations of direct harms to him as a shareholder. Instead I think they are all allegations of harm the board did to the corporation and the corporate assets. Hence I believe all the claims are derivative in nature. Being derivative, one impression I have is that TV has to overcome the following hurdles:

https://www.courts.wa.gov/court_rules/?fa=court_rules.display&group=sup&set=CR&ruleid=supcr23.1

http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=23B.07.400

These may seem trivial but they are not. TV, break down the above requirements such that your claim would qualify standing-wise as derivative. It's entirely possible that Washington law prohibits a person filing a derivative action without an attorney (so no pro se filings). I'd have to dig more to determine this. Regardless of what Washington law says, from my reading pro se folks are unlikely to win in a derivative action. Direct harms are much easier to argue.

Even though TV would be suing on behalf of the corporation, I understand he would still name the corporation as a defendant. My impression is it's fine to also name the President (and no other board member) in the claim. Particularly if you want to put pressure on the President.

Practically speaking, for now here is how I would start:

Submit a long letter of demand to the board, detailing exactly what you want the board to do and the consequences if the board does not do these things. Give the board a set time to respond, being reasonable. Ask for a signed receipt that this was received. Document every communication.

Has the HOA attorney been involved in these mis-steps, either defending them or counseling the board? If so, this might be a good thing. You might be able to avoid court.

Simultaneously, either plan on getting back on the board, or plan to move.

I am not an attorney. This is a crude rendering of my experience in these matters. TV can google on {derivative direct corporation} and get an introduction to the legalities here.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16778


06/11/2016 4:21 PM  
Posted By TV on 06/11/2016 12:34 PM

I don't want to sue the association, I am wanting to sue the Board president..
as this person's failures have been ongoing since the time when I was on the board.




Keep in mind that to bring legal action against an individual board member and win, you will need to pierce the corporate veil (standards for piercing vary by State).
Until you have successfully done this, the Association is likely required to defend (indemnify) the individual.
Additionally, as a volunteer, bad decisions are often dismissed as that (a bad decision).


As others have pointed out, how does one person go unchecked without support from the Board.
Either nobody on the Board wants the job of President (therefore they won't remove him) or they support the individuals decisions and actions.

Are you positive that it's the Presidents fault due to their actions or is it possible that because the President tends to be the face and voice of the Board, that you simply want to blame the messenger?
PitA


Posts:0


06/11/2016 4:33 PM  
Assuming the OP's statement is correct, this would be a perfect example of a corporation in need of a receiver.
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/12/2016 12:05 AM  
The board president is the final signing authority for the board.. so therefore final authority

your posts are very informative

thanks

this will evolve and as it does, I will be asking more questions
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16778


06/12/2016 1:07 AM  
Posted By TV on 06/12/2016 12:05 AM

The board president is the final signing authority for the board.. so therefore final authority




Not exactly.

The President is the designated signatory for the Association. This is typically mandated by the governing documents.

The President doesn't have veto power (unless your governing documents authorize said power).

The Board makes the decision.
The President simply signs the documents on behalf of the Board/Association.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3987


06/12/2016 3:32 AM  
A few additional facts would help round out the picture:

How many units in your community?

How many signatures on your petition so far?

Why and when did your personal fight with prez begin?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/12/2016 5:08 AM  
size of complex is irrelevant

petition for what? confirmation of incompetence and stupidity

it is not a fight, it is based on data.
the prez has always down a rather poor job
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3987


06/12/2016 6:05 AM  
Posted By TV on 06/12/2016 5:08 AM
size of complex is irrelevant

petition for what? confirmation of incompetence and stupidity

it is not a fight, it is based on data.
the prez has always down a rather poor job

Evasive? Yes.
Forthcoming? No.

Other than a soap-box, not sure what you're looking for?

Affirmation that you're right?

Ok, you win - you're right.

IMO, not a case study at all - just a rant.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JonD1


Posts:0


06/12/2016 6:37 AM  
Posted By TV on 06/12/2016 5:08 AM
size of complex is irrelevant

petition for what? confirmation of incompetence and stupidity

it is not a fight, it is based on data.
the prez has always down a rather poor job





I have to wonder TV as you seem to have the ability to rate the performance of others.

How would you rate your performance and that of the other property owners who have knowingly allowed this person to remain in the position of board president? How would you rate the performance of the other sitting members of your board who have sat back and allowed all of this substandard management ? Or is that also irrelevant?

Confusing what it is you are looking for here when you seem to believe you have a good grasp on the entire situation in your HOA?
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/12/2016 7:22 AM  
we did not knowingly allow!!

we were in the dark


I post in this forum, and I get attacked?? typical reaction
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/12/2016 7:23 AM  
everything is my fault, or the home owners fault

never the boards fault
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3987


06/12/2016 7:29 AM  
Posted By TV on 06/12/2016 7:23 AM
everything is my fault, or the home owners fault

never the boards fault

Course correction - From Prez's fault to Board's fault. Why the change?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16778


06/12/2016 7:41 AM  
TV,

You posted that you had previously served on the Board.

From that experience, you should be aware that decisions are made by majority rule of the Board and the Officers and MC simply implement those decisions.

From that experience, you should also be aware that responsibility rests with the Board.


You should also realize that it's the Board who must be the checks and balances on the PM/MC (trust but verify) just as its' the membership who are the checks and balances on the Board. Jon was pointing out that the membership, either through apathy or apparent misguided trust, allowed these Board members (or several sets of Board members over the past 6 years) to remain in Office even though they were not getting answers. In other words, there is enough blame to spread around and it's unlikely the sole fault of one individual (the President).


It's good that you are willing to step up and serve in the hopes to clean the mess up.
You may find, as many of us have, that you might have to continue to serve to keep the mess from recurring.


You have gotten some good advice.
Start with the contract of the MC and see what they are or are not doing.
Then move to the finances.
Rather then finding someone to blame, the mess should first be cleaned up then, if desired, attention and resources can go to assigning blame. Just remember (as Jon tried to point out) everyone appears to have some blame.

BobD4
(up north)

Posts:916


06/12/2016 7:55 AM  
Posted By TV . . . I want to know how to best go about attacking these issue with the association, and the board . . . AND IF as a home owner I have grounds for a lawsuit for gross negligence and incompetence ?



TV Washington :
1-Respectfully, some of the comments above are likely what a judge or adjudicator would be thinking if they were presented with any owner or shareholder's application targetting mere "gross negligence & incompetence". At the very least it could be viewed as dis-incentive to using the remedies legislated or contracted.

2- Where a jurisdiction itself ( or lesser mere site specific covenants ) specifically provides for governance changing or other remedies, should civil courts be further congested ? Or even merely indirectly where a mere private arbitration decision gets appealed ?

"On the docket today your Honour : case 1 business failure, no food on the table ; case 2 young victim rendered paraplegic after tragic accident ; case 3 one or more owners regret the consequence of their choices or tolerances instead of unseating their elected Directors . . .

3 - The derivative remedy from the world of shareholder abuse, respectfully would ask an adjudicator to make a huge leap . . .
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/12/2016 8:07 AM  
president runs board!!!

are you blind

let speaker of the house has no power???
JonD1


Posts:0


06/12/2016 8:08 AM  
"wanting to sue the Board president..
as this person's failures have been ongoing since the time when I was on the board."


So according to the OP's post they were in fact aware of the president's failings at the time they served on the board. For some reason they felt it was best to leave the board and allow this person to remain in charge along with a group of fellow board members who at the very least turned a blind eye.

So now this president claims $300,000 in delinquencies to the property and blames it on the MC. Is this news shocking?

Now the OP wishes to hold one person responsible as if this will somehow resolve the underlying issues. Publicly shaming the president will not clean up this mess. New leadership who understands they will be in this for the long haul will. Can the OP muster that effort? IMO questionable. Finding and placing blame corrects nothing. Getting on the board,mweeding out those who serve no useful purpose and moving ahead to begin the process of cleaning house does. Not filing lawsuits against the one person you hold personally responsible especially in light off,the fact you knew better than to allow them to run your community's board.

How do you now claim you and everyone were in the dark? And if you are unwilling or incapable of accepting you and the other property owners who simply "hoped" everything was fine are in part to blame then correcting these problems will be a mountain to climb.

You leave others to do your job you run the risk of them screwing things up. You leave what you know to be an incompetent BS artist in the role of HOA president and YES you are in part to blame.

My suggestion get some of those irritated owners together roll up your sleeves and get to work cleaning up the mess. Don't waste time finding out HOW you got there or who drove you off the road, there will be plenty of time to share the blame later on. For now best to pull the nose up before you run into the ground.

TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/12/2016 8:15 AM  
I understand your concerns

my point is I think the President of the board has done huge hard to the board, the home owners, and the association.

we have lost revenue,

SPA and reserve funds have been co-mingled.

delinquencies are up

some accounts over 20K in delinquencies, that is like a delinquency for a decade with no remedy

they may or may not have acquired individual units (purchased) with association funds.

Board pres did not pay attention to MC performance


board pres have been on board since early 2000s, and has been president for over a dacade


etc, etc
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3987


06/12/2016 8:24 AM  
Posted By TV on 06/12/2016 8:15 AM
I understand your concerns

my point is I think the President of the board has done huge hard to the board, the home owners, and the association.

we have lost revenue,

SPA and reserve funds have been co-mingled.

delinquencies are up

some accounts over 20K in delinquencies, that is like a delinquency for a decade with no remedy

they may or may not have acquired individual units (purchased) with association funds.

Board pres did not pay attention to MC performance


board pres have been on board since early 2000s, and has been president for over a dacade


etc, etc


And after all that, he's still president. Who's asleep at the switch?

I'm sure your HOA has board member removal/recall options in your docs. Why haven't a group of homeowners moved yet on this?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3987


06/12/2016 8:57 AM  
TV

This forum is a great place to test your viewpoints and get feedback from folks who have had comparable experiences.

IMO, the questioning you get here toughens you up for what you will face when you decide to move things along in your HOA.

Don't take it personally.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
DonA2
(Arizona)

Posts:170


06/12/2016 10:02 AM  
Unless your board is different than most TV, the President does not run the Board. They are a mere figurehead of the Board. If your President is running the Board, it is because the rest of the Board and homeowners are letting it happen.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16778


06/12/2016 10:34 AM  
Posted By TV on 06/12/2016 8:07 AM

president runs board!!!




No.

The President typically only presides over meetings.
Running the meeting is not the same as running the Board.

If it is within your Association, then I agree with Larry and perhaps it might be time to request a receiver be appointed by the court.






Posted By TV on 06/12/2016 8:07 AM

let speaker of the house has no power???




The speaker of the house only has the power and authority the governing documents of the House gives that position.

The President of an HOA/COA only has the power and authority the governing documents of the Association gives that position.
Typically, that power is to:
1) Preside over meetings of the Board
2) Preside over meetings of the membership
3) Be the signatory on contracts and other official documents of the Association (however said contracts are awarded by the Board)
4) Be cosigner of checks

That is typically the only power the President of an HOA/COA has, unless the governing documents or the Board authorizes more.
AugustinD


Posts:3382


06/12/2016 10:58 AM  
This condo has serious financial issues. As PitA pointed out, it could land in receivership. Why? Not because of the OP's apathy. The latter is a nonsensical claim AFAIC. After all, the OP is seeking appointment to the Board. Instead the HOA is in trouble because of (1) the usual member apathy, and (2) because of a bullying President who either is likely not taking votes of the board or who, with the board, is incompetent. Both the member apathy and a President who runs the show, illegally, are common nationwide. The OP does not need 'toughening up' via criticism from some people here. Not that these shots from the cheap seats toughen anyone up. Instead, to me the OP sounds plenty tough. He's also savvy, way moreso than others in his HOA, with a great handle on what is going on financially.

I think repeatedly chastising the OP for the past is counterproductive. Offering constructive solutions, to be attempted the future, is the only helpful contribution, AFAIC. I commend the OP for watching diligently how the financial health of the corporation has changed and for seeking appointment to the board. Once he gets on the board, I recommend he do what he legally can to pressure the current President off the board. My money says the current President does not know condo law from Orwell's Animal Farm. Given how grim things are at this HOA, the President deserves whatever the OP can legally throw at him.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16778


06/12/2016 11:21 AM  
Keep in mind that the MC isn't clear of blame either.

This all apparently, at least from what I'm gathering from the posts, got worse when the MC had issues and assigned 7 different PMs to the property in 6 years. Every PM was likely playing catch up and the Board failed to properly fill the void.

I agree that TV is to be commended for being willing to step up and try to straighten this mess out.
However, TV will likely be less productive if he enters with the attitude of it's all the Presidents fault vs. taking the attitude of what must we do to address the issues.



BTW: For those who had to look it up like I did, AFAIC stands for As Far As I'm Concerned
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/12/2016 11:26 AM  
amen
BobD4
(up north)

Posts:916


06/12/2016 11:42 AM  
Posted By TV : I want to know how to best go about attacking these issue with the association, and the board AND IF as a home owner I have grounds for a lawsuit for gross negligence and incompetence ?




1- With respect, are there Washington or other judgments finding an elected condo/HOA Director(s) personally liable to the condo/HOA electorate for 'gross negligence & incompetence' ?

2 - There must be no end of such judgments or adjudicative awards against professional service providers or suppliers of goods.

( Whether or not property managers come within that professional category, I am aware of at least one civil award against a property management company for overreach/sloppy performance/incompetence. It was a member in highest standing in my jurisdiction's industry association. Also awards for sloppy estoppelling certificates.)
JonD1


Posts:0


06/12/2016 1:36 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/12/2016 10:58 AM
This condo has serious financial issues. As PitA pointed out, it could land in receivership. Why? Not because of the OP's apathy. The latter is a nonsensical claim AFAIC. After all, the OP is seeking appointment to the Board. Instead the HOA is in trouble because of (1) the usual member apathy, and (2) because of a bullying President who either is likely not taking votes of the board or who, with the board, is incompetent. Both the member apathy and a President who runs the show, illegally, are common nationwide. The OP does not need 'toughening up' via criticism from some people here. Not that these shots from the cheap seats toughen anyone up. Instead, to me the OP sounds plenty tough. He's also savvy, way moreso than others in his HOA, with a great handle on what is going on financially.

I think repeatedly chastising the OP for the past is counterproductive. Offering constructive solutions, to be attempted the future, is the only helpful contribution, AFAIC. I commend the OP for watching diligently how the financial health of the corporation has changed and for seeking appointment to the board. Once he gets on the board, I recommend he do what he legally can to pressure the current President off the board. My money says the current President does not know condo law from Orwell's Animal Farm. Given how grim things are at this HOA, the President deserves whatever the OP can legally throw at him.




Augustine it would seem to me the idea of going into receivership would be the last option for me if I lived there. The cost alone of falling under court ordered receivership would be deadly to the property and to those left to,cover those added costs.

Interesting, how you defend the OP's role in this understanding they were on this board and held the opinion the president was incapable of performing their duties. The OP for some unexplained reason left the board and now claims he and the other owners were left in the dark? So you can criticize the president from years ago but not accept responsibility when their performance proves to have been sub par?

And then you cite "the usual member apathy" as on of the root causes. Is the OP not too a member? So we can blame all the others just not the OP who in fact had direct knowledge?

We have offered suggestions. Suing the president, as the OP fixated on, will not resolve the root issues. Joining the board as a minority of ONE will not resolve the problems. Leaving the current president in their position if in fact the details given are accurate, will not resolve the problems. And as far as your comment about taking shots from the " cheap seats". Well myself I have served on our board for 29 years. How about you? I removed a sitting board, the MC, the lawyer, the contracted service providers. How about you? I didn't sue anyone, I diidn't take actions that cost the property more money. I worked to remove and replace the board with like minded folks who wished for things to be better. Over the last 13 years as president I have presided over increasing our community assets by factor of 18. Making us one of the most financially sound communities in our area. So speaking for myself, that's what some of us in the "cheap seats" have actually accomplished. How about you?

And I doubt IF the OP successfully rejoins the board they can " pressure" the president off the board. Just how would one vote accomplish that? And just what would be accomplished by legally throwing whatever at the board president? Just what does that even mean? We in the cheap seats don't get that strategy?

To complain, find fault and point fingers does nothing. This property did fall into a $300,000 delinquency hole overnight. So before you had out gold stars for effort you might consider who allowed what to occur and who has actually done something to fix the issues. IMO not a whole lot of credit to go around to all involved.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3987


06/12/2016 3:54 PM  
Posted By NpS on 06/12/2016 8:57 AM
TV

This forum is a great place to test your viewpoints and get feedback from folks who have had comparable experiences.

IMO, the questioning you get here toughens you up for what you will face when you decide to move things along in your HOA.

Don't take it personally.


Posted By AugustinD on 06/12/2016 10:58 AM
The OP does not need 'toughening up' via criticism from some people here. Not that these shots from the cheap seats toughen anyone up. Instead, to me the OP sounds plenty tough. He's also savvy, way moreso than others in his HOA, with a great handle on what is going on financially.


I intended my words as encouragement to TV, not criticism.

I've had many ideas that I tested here to get reactions (both good and bad, both complementary and disapproving) to ideas that I was thinking about taking to my board and/or my community.

Whether I liked the responses I got from this forum or not, I paid close attention to what others said here. It helped me prepare for what I might hear when I take my message back home where it really counts. And after all, that's a goal of mine - To use this forum as a practice ground to help me figure out the best way to get things accomplished in my community.

I appreciate a well-thought-out challenge. The better the challenge to my ideas, the better prepared I become. And let me tell you, nothing anything has said here compares to the intensity of an angry homeowner. So I'll gladly take the hit here if that's what it takes to understand an opposing perspective.

I see a big difference between a critique and a personal criticism. But if someone sees every critique as personal criticism, then IMO that person isn't taking advantage of one of the greatest values that this forum has to offer.

So yeah, I'll test and I'll prod - But not with any menacing intent. And I hope that others will continue to test and prod me in return. That's the way I learn how to become a better board member.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BobD4
(up north)

Posts:916


06/13/2016 7:37 AM  
Posted By TV . . I want to know how to best go about attacking these issue with the association, and the board . . . AND IF as a home owner I have grounds for a lawsuit for gross negligence and incompetence ?



TV Wash: In the absence of more specifics about condo Director standard/ condo Director duty of care, you should best consult an insured licensed legal professional in your state.

This ain't legal advice : You may also want to take a peek at the following, noting that there are appear to be different expressions of the 'duty of care' between statutory condos & HOAs in your state :

1- The Hucklbeberry Circle condo war: ALEXANDER LLC v. SANFORD LLC issued May 12 2014 Wash Ct of Appeals http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wa-court-of-appeals/1666737.html

Some of the same Huckleberry ( ! ) parties square off in : Cindy Alexander, Et Al., Appellants/cross-resp. V. Gary Sanford, Et Al., Respondents/cross-app. http://law.justia.com/cases/washington/court-of-appeals-division-i/2014/69637-8.html

2 - Washington state attorney Stephen W Hansen ( Hansen, McConnell & Pellegirni) discusses "Legal Responsibilities of Association Board Members & Their Potential Liability" Oct 9 2013 including differentiating the standards between statutory condos & HOAs

http://thirdstreetlaw.com/2013/10/fiduciary-responsibility-of-association-board-members-their-potential-liability/

3 The lack of readily available material online, suggests that to even consider pursuing Directors you would best rely on insured professional advice in your state .

Going after PMC - a further separate issue . . . in the Twilight Zone . . .
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/13/2016 7:51 AM  
I have one statement to all of you:

It is reasonable for unit owners to expect that the board members will properly discharge those duties.. and not BE IDIOTS!!!

incompetence and stupidity seem to be the SOP
DonA2
(Arizona)

Posts:170


06/13/2016 7:55 AM  
Yes, it is reasonable to expect that. But is also up to the owners to attend meetings and hold the board accountable. It is also up to the owners to vote out those who are not upholding the standards. The board represents the owners. If the board is doing a bad job, it is because the owners are letting them.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3987


06/13/2016 8:05 AM  
Posted By TV on 06/13/2016 7:51 AM
I have one statement to all of you:

It is reasonable for unit owners to expect that the board members will properly discharge those duties.. and not BE IDIOTS!!!

incompetence and stupidity seem to be the SOP

I don't get it TV. The title you gave this thread is "Case Study in Condo gone wrong"

Ok, so you've identified a problem. But a Case Study involves a lot more. It involves an analysis that not only identifies a problem, but describes what efforts were taken to correct it.

Yet all you seem to be doing is pointing at the defects and calling names. That's not my idea of a Case Study.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/13/2016 8:13 AM  
we disagree

this is a good case study

and right now, it is too early for remedies
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16778


06/13/2016 8:46 AM  
Posted By TV on 06/13/2016 7:51 AM

It is reasonable for unit owners to expect that the board members will properly discharge those duties.. and not BE IDIOTS!!!




It certainly is reasonable to expect that. However, that expectation would be unrealistic.

Since you served on the Board, you should be aware that Board members often learn how to do the job by doing it.

The Association might be lucky enough to have a landscape contractor be your Maintenance Officer, but the reality is you likely got an individual who only knows how to cut their grass.

The Association might be lucky enough to have a CPA as their Treasure. However, the reality is you may have someone who knows how to keep a family check book or worse, they have no idea how to keep a checkbook.

The Association might be lucky enough to have a retired CEO as their President. However, the reality is it was the last guy in line when the jobs were being divided up (that's actually how I became President my first year on the Board).

It's rare that you get the right credentials for any Board member on an HOA or COA Board. Because of this, anyone who gives the appearance that they know how to run things are likely seen as the expert in the field. If you have an MC or PM, they are typically seen as the expert in the field. However, even when you have an expert, they might not be able to relate to your development (case in point, I once served with a past President of CAI on my Board. We often had disagreements as he would refer to condo rules and I would refer to HOA rules).

Realistically, the Association gets a Board out of those members willing to serve. Their willingness may be due to having an agenda, wanting revenge or just wanting make things better in their vision. The only common thread being that they were willing to serve when others were not (which is what tends to keep them on the Board). TV, you have indicated with your posts that you have a good grasp of what needs to be done. You have indicated that having served in the past, you are willing to serve again. To me that gives you a lot of credibility.

Have you formulated how to address the problems you have identified when you get on the Board?
TV
(Washington)

Posts:34


06/13/2016 9:04 AM  
bravo.. all good points

unfortunately Condos seem to be a legal abomination
corporation run by amatures


I must get back on the board and then ascertain the full facts or try to..
as the board president obfuscates questions!



fix delinquencies

fix billing and payments

fix segregation of funds

fix capital plan based on monies

do belated reserve study

change MC as needed

look for ways to reduce operating costs


banish Board president to GITMO!!


probably seek legal council to sue the hell out of BOARD president as an individual if possible
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16778


06/13/2016 9:12 AM  
TV,

sounds like a good plan.




Posted By TV on 06/13/2016 9:04 AM


banish Board president to GITMO!!




Having severed there, the correct acronym is GTMO it is simply pronounced GitMo.

PitA


Posts:0


06/13/2016 2:13 PM  
Having severed there, the correct acronym is GTMO it is simply pronounced GitMo.


Interesting, in context, slip of the tongue.

I am sure you meant 'served'.

My personal service was V.N. ~ a brain scrambling nightmare, as is all armed conflict.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16778


06/13/2016 3:44 PM  
Yep, fat finger syndrome.

Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Case study in Condo gone wrong



Get 1 year of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!

Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.







General Legal Notice:  The content of forum messages are from the posting member and have not been reviewed nor endorsed by HOATalk.com.  Messages posted by HOATalk or other members are for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice and do not constitute an attorney-client relationship.  Readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel.  HOATalk is not a licensed attorney, CPA, tax advisor, financial advisor or any other licensed professional.  HOATalk accepts ads from sponsors but does not verify sponsor qualifications nor endorse/guarantee any sponsor's product or service.
Legal Notice For Messages Posted by Sponsoring Attorneys: This message has been prepared by the sponsoring attorney for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Readers of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send any sponsoring attorney confidential information unless you speak with the sponsoring attorney or an attorney from the sponsoring attorney’s firm and get authorization to send that information to them. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in the firm of the sponsoring attorney. Sponsoring attorneys that post messages here are licensed to practice law in a specific state or states as indicated in their message signature or sponsor’s profile page. (NOTE: A ‘sponsoring attorney’ is an attorney that is a HOATalk.com official sponsor and is identified as such in the posted message or on our sponsor page.)

Copyright HOA Talk.com, A Service of Community123 LLC ( Homeowners Association Discussions )   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement